[ENTJ] how do you argue with an ENTJ?

[CzeCze]

the secrets would completely rip them apart.....

Hey Whatever, considering the above and the fact they are scared of you... this must really be quite some clique with some heft because maybe you aren't as aware of how strong a position you actually have?

I think you are being nice (which is not a bad thiing!) in trying to keep this win/win for everyone and somehow resolve this with no bruised egos and ruffling as few feathers as possible.

Hopefully the advice others have given you has helped you reach such a goal.

As for me, maybe I did too much ENFP scanning (as opposed to 'reading') but I still don't get why you want to avoid a huge massive row. Aside from the fact you think this will NOT change the ENTJ minds... do you even have to change their minds?' Would a huge massive row really be such a bad thing if it shook things up enough to restructure/reorganize your fraternity for the better?

You said you had been 'appointed' the leader of the resistance because there are people who agree with you but are too scared to come forward?

You know, a whole herd of sheep can run over a lion. Or 3 of them.

Was that a good analogy?

Basically, if the majority of the organization comes out and says 'yay' or 'nay' can these 3 ENTJ's override them?

I hope everything turns out well. Also maybe not so helpful to hear but for all your planning when it comes down to the wire, it may end up you have to decide what is more important to you: this ENFP's continued membership and the principle of it or the goodwill of these ENTJ's and the appearance of harmony -- split decision time.

Do you have a plan b) for if peaceful resolution with ENTJ's is not possible? Because your true ultimate goal is to have the ENFP stay in the organizatino, ENTJ's be damned, correct? So if all else fails, will you turn into a vindicative, evil ISTP shadow?? Ooh, cause I wanna watch!

 

[proteanmix]

What I meant by the claim that Ti has an edge over Te is that it is more germane to the quintissence of 'Thinking'. Or in colloquial terms, it is more T than Te.

Jung inherited the notion from Schopenhauer that the essence of mind is unconscious. There is no distinction between the conscious and the unconscious--all of mind is unconscious, conscious is only an external manifestation of the unconscious.

Jung also argued that Introverts are closer in tune with their unconscious. All functions stem from the mind. We equate the mind with the unconscious. Thus the closer a function is to the mind/unconscious, the stronger it is.

Te and Ti derive from the same quintissence--Thinking. Introverted Thinking is more of a 'Thinking' function, because it is closer to the unconscious element of 'Thinking'.

Where did Jung say that? I have not read anything like this about Ti vs Te, nor did Jung say that introverts where closer to their unconscious than extroverts. He said the unconscious is a nebulous blob for anyone, not just extroverts.

I'll get some quotations later on.

ETA:There is no function that has an overall advantage over another. Each function has its set of pros and cons. Te is better at some things than Ti, just as Ti is better at some things than Te, but Ti is not a more thorough and rigorous thinking function than Te. People completely loose credibility in my eyes when they try to prove the general superiority of a certain set of functions over another.

 

[wildcat]

I'm in an organization which has an abnormally high percentage of ENTJs, which is vaguely scary! This usually isn't a problem, but some of them have recently stepped over the line on an issue, and I, as the wise old bourbon drinking grandma on the porch of the organization, am expected to set them straight. Not cool.

How on earth does one argue a point with ENTJs? They seem so entirely convinced that they are more logical and correct than I am! I'd really appreciate some insight since I'm kind of dreading confronting them. I can play organization politics and threaten to air long buried skeletons with the best of them, but I'm kind of scared of large groups of people especially ENTJs.

Please help?

You cannot argue with an ENTJ.

Do not say anything. Let him talk.

Then do what you want.

You let him off the hook.

 

[miss fortune]

I'm trying to play nice with these people because we have been friends for a few years, and I know that if I decide to go all bitch on them I'll cause some major rifts in the organization (my being mean is more akin to being EVIL!). I'm just kind of getting tired of having played nice for the past few years and getting taken advantage of for it!

The ENTJs can't override anything, because some of the people who asked me to smite them are high officers in the organization. I'd really like not to irreparably break my friendship with them though.....

 

[htb]

There is no function that has an overall advantage over another. Each function has its set of pros and cons. Te is better at some things than Ti, just as Ti is better at some things than Te, but Ti is not a more thorough and rigorous thinking function than Te.

Introverted thinking is the engine and drivetrain of pure logic, which may be what BlueWing means. But as a valid argument can support claims that are untrue, extroverted thinking can prevail in the demonstration of how conclusions from sound reasoning have no basis in reality.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Where did Jung say that? I have not read anything like this about Ti vs Te, nor did Jung say that introverts where closer to their unconscious than extroverts. He said the unconscious is a nebulous blob for anyone, not just extroverts.

I'll get some quotations later on.

ETA:There is no function that has an overall advantage over another. Each function has its set of pros and cons. Te is better at some things than Ti, just as Ti is better at some things than Te, but Ti is not a more thorough and rigorous thinking function than Te. People completely loose credibility in my eyes when they try to prove the general superiority of a certain set of functions over another.

This will be difficult for me to explain to you because we use different benchmarks to make our assessments. Again, the Introverted Judgment/Extroverted Judgment communication discrepancy.

Let me translate my thoughts into your perspective.

Lets take Albert Einstein as a representative for the Ti temperament. Napoleon Bonaparte as a representative of a Te temperament.

You could tell that both of these men are obviously heavy thinkers, almost certainly have thinking as their Dominant Function. One is an introverted Thinker, the other extroverted.

We see that Einstein analyzes, physics, philosophy, sciences, or any other complex system almost solely for his enjoyment. Bonaparte too likes to analyze, as he likes to solve impersonal problems. Yet the problems that he solves are not theoretical, but those of the world. Like, how is this battle most efficiently carried out? How do I manipulate the social hierarchy? Whats the most efficient way to do things?

Moreover, we do not need a direct quotation from Jung to establish that introverts are closer to the nature of mind than Extroverts, as the implication is obvious. See my response to Maverick for more on that matter.

Introverted Thinking has more quintissential T qualities because it is closer to the essence of Thinking due to the Introversion factor. Thus, Both Te and Ti are rigorous becuase of their affinity with the Thinking element, Ti is more rigorous because it is in closer affinity with the Thinking element than Te. As I have established, Introverts are closer to the essence of mind than Extroverts.

As we see, all of mind is unconscious, the conscious is merely an external manifestation of the unconscious. An Extroverted Thinking has its seat in the conscious, Introverted Thinking in the unconscious. Why is that? Because Introverts are more at ease in the realm of thought, (mind) and extroverts in the realm of action. This is my proof for why Introverts are closer to the unconscious than Extroverted. Of course everyone has access to the unconscious, Introverts just have more access.

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Based on this model, Introverted Thinking is theoretical logic and Extroverted Thinking practical logic. Why is Introverted Thinking more rigorous? Because it does not depend on external symbols, as it makes symbols of its own.

Why is Introverted Thinking deeper? Dont you think that the question of a physics or a philosophy theory runs deeper than the question of practical applications like how to win the battle, or how to manipulate the social hierarchy? ETJs tend to have little interest in modal logic that ITPs tend to be fascinated with.

Moreover, dont we associate Introversion with depth of thought, and Extroversion with energetic action?

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That is the best I could do translating my ideas into terms of practical applications, your EJ native tongue.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Well, we generally don't care about imposing our views. So if I say that for me your world-view is not coherent, it doesn't mean you can't keep on using it, just that my personal opinion is that is not coherent. Let's put it this way: there are certain events, and uncertain events. The former set does not entail the possibility of two mutually exclusive events being true, so yes it's very black and white.



Man, I think you haven't understood your thought process. When the debate lasts for too long, we start thinking "why am I here doing this stuff, when I could occupy my time with more fun activities"? In any case IRL I've always welcomed arguing with ITPs because I know that their feedback is always unbiased.

My point was that ETJs are likely to aspire to convince you to embrace their views. That is because they tend to measure success by external standards, convincing the other person to agree with them is one way for them to meet a standard of the like.


ITPs tend to be quite recalcitrant because they rely first and foremost on their inner thought processes for insights, thus this makes them difficult to influence. I am thinking the ENTJ will be annoyed by their repeated inability to influence the ITP, and this will lead them to be frustrated. Whether they leave the conversation because they are frustrated, or because they have better things to do is irrelevant. As this does not take away from them being frustrated.


Other than that, I guess I just don't understand the remark...

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

I'm trying to play nice with these people because we have been friends for a few years, and I know that if I decide to go all bitch on them I'll cause some major rifts in the organization (my being mean is more akin to being EVIL!). I'm just kind of getting tired of having played nice for the past few years and getting taken advantage of for it!

The ENTJs can't override anything, because some of the people who asked me to smite them are high officers in the organization. I'd really like not to irreparably break my friendship with them though.....

I'm not sure what the problem is. It seems like you have enough influence in the organization, so that your friend will be accepted in. If the ENTJ's make a stink about it, then you speak to them individually saying that this is the way things are going to be, and also that they were acting inappropriately. If they continue to make a stink after that then you meet with them again individually and tell them that they are going to be expelled for their misbehavior, but you'll bury the past if they do too and let all the issues drop. If they continue past that then expel them.

It seems like the biggest issues are 1) to present the objective facts and 2) allow them to save face. The objective fact is that they were breaking the rules, so they are objectively in the wrong. You let them save face by meeting with them privately, but you state exactly what will happen and follow through should they continue to make an issue. Also you always allow them a way out saying that you would prefer to forget the whole issue if they are willing too. (But if they don't really drop it then you make good on your threats.)

(Purely as an aside: How do ENTJ's befriend each other anyway. I would expect them to always be competing to be the one viewed as the "alpha male".)

 

[SolitaryWalker]

(Purely as an aside: How do ENTJ's befriend each other anyway. I would expect them to always be competing to be the one viewed as the "alpha male".)

They get affectionate after they have duked it out with one another. Most Ts function this way, friendliness comes after being challenged. The F follows after T needs were satisfied.

If they are in a group, then likely they will continue to strive for the leadership role subtly, whilst maintaining congenial terms. If they have a one-on-one association, shouldnt be much of a problem.

 

[FDG]

My point was that ETJs are likely to aspire to convince you to embrace their views. That is because they tend to measure success by external standards, convincing the other person to agree with them is one way for them to meet a standard of the like.

No, your insight into our psyche is incorrect. When I do set myself up for the tedious task which is convincing people by trying to change their minds - awfully difficult - is because I think that they can benefit from my advice, not because I get off by winning a debate.

ITPs tend to be quite recalcitrant because they rely first and foremost on their inner thought processes for insights, thus this makes them difficult to influence. I am thinking the ENTJ will be annoyed by their repeated inability to influence the ITP, and this will lead them to be frustrated. Whether they leave the conversation because they are frustrated, or because they have better things to do is irrelevant. As this does not take away from them being frustrated.

Lol, read the last paragraph. If I set up a dichotomy with frustrated on one side of the set, and busy on the other, the two don't necessarily overlap, so an ENTJ may leave not necessarily out of frustration.

(Purely as an aside: How do ENTJ's befriend each other anyway. I would expect them to always be competing to be the one viewed as the "alpha male".)

I've always befriended ENTJs allright. We never ever compete, only collaborate.

 

[miss fortune]

yeah- but does an istp have any advantage that can be used over an entj? said istp is getting quite depressed and desperate!

 

[Nocapszy]

Example of ENTJ argument

 

[substitute]

yeah- but does an istp have any advantage that can be used over an entj? said istp is getting quite depressed and desperate!

The ISTP I know, when he knows he's in the right, would beat any ENTJ in the stubbornness, dig-your-heels-in stakes, any day. If you're like him, then you have this vital quality: you won't back down.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

No, your insight into our psyche is incorrect. When I do set myself up for the tedious task which is convincing people by trying to change their minds - awfully difficult - is because I think that they can benefit from my advice, not because I get off by winning a debate..

Yes, ENTJs, as all TJs tend to, have a compulsive advice giving syndrome.

Thus, when they bark orders at you, they think they are rendering you a service.

On practical basis, I would agree with you, you'd be giving them your views because you think this may help them. However, now I am thinking about ENTJs who argue about complex ideas. In history of philosophy, NTJs were notorious for forcing their views on others. They did not regret being a bit myopic until they went back to introspect, only there the Introverted Intuition suggested to them that they should be a bit more charitable to the views of others. But as far as Te is concerned--what we have is a standard that is ostensible to ALL. Whoever, meets the standard is right, whoever does not, is wrong. The ENTJ takes it upon himself to move those who are in the 'wrong' towards the 'right'. For this reason we can also draw a parallel to ENFJs in comparison to INFPs. INFPs do not believe in forcing values on their children, as they make values for their own sake, for the sake of their inner world. Yet ENFJs tend to believe in very gently persuading their children to embrace their beliefs.

This isnt a remark about any ENTJ person(s), but rather a remark about how the unconscious faculty of Extroverted thinking tends to function. Moreover, this is not specific to ENTJs, but rather to the property of Extroverted Judgments (TJ/FJ), which is prominent, however, in ENTJs. As their first function is a TJ (Te).

Lol, read the last paragraph. If I set up a dichotomy with frustrated on one side of the set, and busy on the other, the two don't necessarily overlap, so an ENTJ may leave not necessarily out of frustration..

I am not thinking about ENTJs on practical basis, but ENTJs who discuss complex ideas. There they will pursue the task tenaciously until their 'opponent' agrees with them, or they are proved 'wrong' in a very ostensible fashion. Last time I argued with the ENTJ in person that I've cited earlier, I had to perform reductio ad absurdum on many of his salient clauses.

I've always befriended ENTJs allright. We never ever compete, only collaborate.

Yes, Te can be a co-operative function, as EJ mentality tends to be radically collectivist.

However, it is clear that EJs need an established hierarchy in order to cooperate, as otherwise they just would not know what role to hop into. The most adept leader will take it upon himself to establish hierarchy, that is likely going to be an ENTJ. I think there highly likely will be a power struggle if the two ENTJs who initially wanted to cooperate to get a task done, cannot decide which one of them is to establish the hierarchy. Moreover, the ENTJ who rescinds will resent the ENTJ leader and unless he is rendered 2nd in command, he likely will feel enough resentment to become resolute to subvert the primary guy. Not that he woud be content with being just 2nd in command, but there he may just be able to put up with it for long enough to get the project out of the way, next time he'd direct all of his energy to the one end and goal to becoming the 'primary guy', especially if that other ENTJ is also going to be involved again.

 

[miss fortune]

I've realized that there's no way to sway an ENTJ, and that since I'm signifigantly more soft spoken and am generally viewed as stupid by these people (some science majors find liberal arts majors to be idiots), there's really no winning in this situation. The ENFP pledge is quitting, another friend who is a high officer is quitting and I'm quitting. I'm old enough to realize sometimes you have to cut ties and move on- I'm really just regretting the fact that I stuck around as long as I did, and feel rather betrayed because I was nice to these people and thought they were my friends. At least I realize that I don't need friends like that.
Fucking sucks though- I've just cut off a lot of the people I know!

 

[miss fortune]

ENTJs can be defeated!!! (just learned this after I thought I'd screwed myself completely over in hopes of making at least a small gesture!)

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

ENTJs can be defeated!!! (just learned this after I thought I'd screwed myself completely over in hopes of making at least a small gesture!)

How many bullets did it take?

 

[miss fortune]

None! My brain is that good!

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

None! My brain is that good!

I bow to your mighty mental prowess.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I bow to your mighty mental prowess.

It really isnt that hard...

An ENTP would be more of a challenge because of Ti.