[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[EJCC]

Thanks!

Speaking of drinking...The ESTJ I know does these things if we go out:

1) He's the one feeding everyone shots, but doesn't drink more than one or two during the night. Sits back and watches US all make fools of ourselves.

2) When we first started dating, did #1 but then on the ride home started "interviewing" me on what I liked about him. Basically, tried to get info from me. I'm actually laughing as I wrote that...:shakes head: always in control!

This may just be this ESTJ, but I'm wondering if you can relate at all.

I'm not sure if I can relate (although I can understand why he'd try to get info from you in that state... very strategic ). I'm not entertained enough by drunk people to want to watch them drink all night. So, yeah, I really think it depends.

Oh, and someone asked before, INTPatricia I think, about how a male ESTJ may act when interested. I can only speak for myself and my past situation. I made the first contact to talk to him. If you talk to him as a friend - you'll get a friend. I had to put it out there first and flirt with him. Once I did that, we had this really great back and forth flirty bantering and the rest was history. He pursued me after that.

Yes, I definitely believe that. We're not that great at making the first move. The risk is scary - scarier for us than for others because we generally don't like any risks. This can kind of be a disadvantage, especially since many types that might be attracted to ESTJs would be shy about that sort of thing, too.

 

[runvardh]

Well... hm. I wish more guys were like this. It would certainly make me less concerned. I mean, I love to cook, and I knit and I sew a little bit, and I tend to obsessively clean and enjoy that, so I'm always concerned that I'm going to be reduced to that once I get married. Becoming the stereotypical American wife is the stuff of my nightmares.

See, I can cook, clean, sew (I've even darned my own socks...), do simple work on electrical, plumbing and carpentry. Heck, the only reason I could need a girl in my life for is just to take some off the load off and the companionship.

Runvardh -

I notice you're from Alberta. I'm also from the Prairies. I wonder if some of the talk about cooking/domestic skills etc is centred in what geographic area we all respectively come from. I know there are very few women my age that know how to cook anymore/host a gathering/sew etc and that many of the guys my age end up taking care of their girlfriends they are living with (who flatly refuse to learn how to do any of those things). I've found that the Newfoundlanders I am acquainted with largely occupy much more traditional male and female roles and perhaps that has something to do with the kind of work men there have and the fact that they often are working away. When I went there, I really felt like I was stepping back to the 60s or something - more like when my parents were first married.

I'm from Ontario and most of my experience has been with "liberated" girls from that province. I have a minor opinion that they're actually trapped by what they refuse to do, but that might just be me being bitter.

 

[Fidelia]

Oops sorry, runvardh (how come your sidebar thing there says Alberta?). That's unfortunate. I actually do think that you're right and not just bitter, although it's important not to tar all women with that same brush (there are some who don't subscribe to that way of thinking). Most of the women of my acquaintance who are "liberated" in this generation actually never felt much sexism themselves as women a generation before may have. I think it doesn't make sense to define themselves by what they don't do and I do not see many of those same women who fix their cars, or who can do basic household repairs and carpentry, which means they are bringing very little to the relationship other than companionship, sex and someone to split the bills with. The pendulum has been kicked so far that some women lose sight of why change was needed in the first place and what the goal was...

 

[runvardh]

Oops sorry, runvardh (how come your sidebar thing there says Alberta?). That's unfortunate. I actually do think that you're right and not just bitter, although it's important not to tar all women with that same brush (there are some who don't subscribe to that way of thinking). Most of the women of my acquaintance who are "liberated" in this generation actually never felt much sexism themselves as women a generation before may have. I think it doesn't make sense to define themselves by what they don't do and I do not see many of those same women who fix their cars, or who can do basic household repairs and carpentry, which means they are bringing very little to the relationship other than companionship, sex and someone to split the bills with. The pendulum has been kicked so far that some women lose sight of why change was needed in the first place and what the goal was...

No, my location is correct, but I've only been in Alberta for the last 2 years, I've been a dating adult for the last 7. I try not to tar all women with the same brush, but my need to be self sufficient started with my mother's inability to do laundry and sort it properly before I ran out of clothes. Helping with the process didn't seem to actually improve the situation either; it actually caused it to deteriorate, so I had to talk her into teaching me how so I could do it myself. Not including bills I've been half taking care of myself since I was 8. After 16, my mother got the boot, but my step dad let me stay and I started doing most of the cooking that required more than throwing chicken nuggets into a deep frier.

My expectations lay in the way of a fair sharing of the cleaning and financial, whom ever gets what. I can handle either one of us staying at home getting stuff done while the other works, to both working and helping eachother with the house stuff. It doesn't really take much to keep me happy in that realm as long as I'm not doing everything. Anyway, I've done enough whining about that on this site.

 

[alcea rosea]

Why do I get the impression from ESTJ that they want to control people? Is it true?

 

[EJCC]

Why do I get the impression from ESTJ that they want to control people? Is it true?

Hm... well, I don't think of it as "wanting to control people", even though it KIND of is. I think of it as, well, wanting everything to be done correctly, and doing everything we can to further that goal. It can be a very selfless thing sometimes, contrary to what some might see it as. We're really trying to do the right thing when we do that.
The problem with the whole deal, though, is that "correctly" is such a subjective term, but most of the time ESTJs don't see it that way. They tend to see things as either being done the "right" way or the "wrong" way, with the "right" way usually being their way. So this may come across as deliberately trying to control people (to further something? a power trip? control freakery?), but it isn't, quite.
Do you see what I mean?

 

[alcea rosea]

Hm... well, I don't think of it as "wanting to control people", even though it KIND of is. I think of it as, well, wanting everything to be done correctly, and doing everything we can to further that goal. It can be a very selfless thing sometimes, contrary to what some might see it as. We're really trying to do the right thing when we do that.
The problem with the whole deal, though, is that "correctly" is such a subjective term, but most of the time ESTJs don't see it that way. They tend to see things as either being done the "right" way or the "wrong" way, with the "right" way usually being their way. So this may come across as deliberately trying to control people (to further something? a power trip? control freakery?), but it isn't, quite.
Do you see what I mean?

A good answer. Yes, I kind of understand.

But can ESTJ see that other person might prefer to do things differently?

Is it hard for ESTJ's sometimes to see the boudaries of other people and not to cross them?

 

[EJCC]

But can ESTJ see that other person might prefer to do things differently?

Yeah... but they still think that they aren't doing it right! *self-deprecating LOL*

Is it hard for ESTJ's sometimes to see the boudaries of other people and not to cross them?

Yeah, I think so. Sometimes they get blinded by the "goal", you know? If it's between the greater good and one person's feelings (in their mind), they're going to choose the greater good.

 

[alcea rosea]

Yeah... but they still think that they aren't doing it right! *self-deprecating LOL*

Sounds like something I've observed with ESTJ.

Yeah, I think so. Sometimes they get blinded by the "goal", you know? If it's between the greater good and one person's feelings (in their mind), they're going to choose the greater good.

How can ESTJ be stopped at boundaries?
How is ESTJ told to take a few steps back?
How is ESTJ show what is appreciated by other people and what is not?
How is ESTJ stopped when they are trying to take control over other people's houses?

Lol, sounds kind of funny but it's not that much in real life...

 

[d@v3]

Why do ESTJ's use guilt-trip methods so often in order to control and/or manipulate other people? Do they every feel any remorse after doing this?

 

[JocktheMotie]

Why do ESTJ's use guilt-trip methods so often in order to control and/or manipulate other people? Do they every feel any remorse after doing this?

Have you encountered this? I haven't in dating my ESTJ for 6+ years, at all. She'll usually appeal to me by arguing why something is the obvious thing to do using common sense or social affirmation as a benchmark. She never guilt trips. My mother, on the other hand, will guilt trip, but she's an ESFx with extreme self-esteem issues.

 

[d@v3]

I definitely encounter it. But among others, it is from my mom. (Whom I think is an ESTJ?) Maybe it's a mom thing? Maybe it's the way ESTJ girls get after becoming mom's?

 

[entropie]

Why are people in general so stubborn and so less open for different opinions on reality ?

 

[EJCC]

How can ESTJ be stopped at boundaries?
How is ESTJ told to take a few steps back?
How is ESTJ show what is appreciated by other people and what is not?
How is ESTJ stopped when they are trying to take control over other people's houses?

1. Prove to them logically that your method works too. Argue your case. That should get 'em off your back (if they're healthy, that is, and care more about the job than about their own power).
2. Do you mean, "how do you show an ESTJ" or "how does an ESTJ show"?
3. Do you mean, like, in a domestic situation? If you do... then what would need to happen is a bit of a heart-to-heart with them in private. Very direct, but not accusatory. (Also, better to do this when they're in a good mood, so they don't take it really personally. They still might get a little upset, but I think that's probably typical.)

Why do ESTJ's use guilt-trip methods so often in order to control and/or manipulate other people? Do they every feel any remorse after doing this?

I... dunno. I don't really do this. Usually when I'm trying to "control" people, I do it as directly as possible. That sort of backhanded technique really pisses me off, actually.

I definitely encounter it. But among others, it is from my mom. (Whom I think is an ESTJ?) Maybe it's a mom thing? Maybe it's the way ESTJ girls get after becoming mom's?

I'll bet it is a mom thing. Both of my grandmothers do this to an extent (and I know for a fact that neither is ESTJ). Drives me up the WALL.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Why do ESTJ's use guilt-trip methods so often in order to control and/or manipulate other people? Do they every feel any remorse after doing this?

I've noticed that they can do this too. ESTJ's have a real ability to be very charming. And when someone has that ability they can always use it for negative purposes. But I'd say their manipulations aren't some grand evil scheme.

It's more along these lines: I think ESTJ's can be this way when they have a goal that they know they can't reach alone...that they need help. Then their usual "Just the facts, ma'am" style can go the way of the dinosaurs and you're face to face with a humble, puppy dog eyed ESTJ

I have helped an ESTJ out when I'd rather be doing other things with my time. So in that sense, they made me feel guilty to say 'no' to them. But ultimately, it's my say so. I didn't have to help.

 

[Nat]

Why do some ESTJs feel the need to criticise even when it is clear that it is upsetting the other person?

 

[EJCC]

For ESTJs, when it's a choice between getting done what needs to be done/helping the greater good and hurting one person's feelings, or being nice and hurting the cause*, they'll choose hurting the one person's feelings.

*This is how THEY see it, anyways. And I'm not excusing it.

 

[Nat]

Makes sense. Thanks for your answer EJCC!

 

[EJCC]

No problem! That's what I'm here for

 

[d@v3]

Yeah I have definitley met this type of ESTJ more than once! ---->

Then of course, I can't say no. So I end up being pissed and doing whatever it is she WANTS (usually not "needs") to be done and there aren't any rewards for doing it. :rolli: