Let's talk the dislike of religion and spirituality.

[tony_goth]

Aside from contradictions in the Bible (which I've studied a lot, used to read it and analyze it several hours per day for several years in total, and often with others also asking their own questions and many people discussing various explanations or answers in things, coming from different angles therefore)--...

Solomon had some issue with something like "whose child is him", mother A or mother B, let's cut the child in half. But it has a symbolic meaning. We say "cut the pear in half".

We sometimes think "will I buy 2 or 4 bananas... hum... let's buy 3". Or "should I be a pacifist or a warmonger... let's prepare the war during peace, and let's prepare the peace during war".

In that video, the child had to choose between clemency and severity, and chose "both". The contradiction was dealt with.

 

[Mole]

Obedience is vital for any authoritarian structure, whether it be the Military, or the Church, or the Family.

To escape from such structures is rare and requires sone luck. But everywhere we look we see such structures being rationalised.

Poised for greater freedom are liberal democracy, which limits authoritarian power. And poised for greater freedom is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And prosperity increases our choices, and so increases our freedom.

It is true Capitalism does increase inequality, but is the only economic system that also increases wealth. All the others also increase inequality but don't increase wealth.

 

[Vendrah]

Obedience is vital for any authoritarian structure, whether it be the Military, or the Church, or the Family.

To escape from such structures is rare and requires sone luck. But everywhere we look we see such structures being rationalised.

Poised for greater freedom are liberal democracy, which limits authoritarian power. And poised for greater freedom is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And prosperity increases our choices, and so increases our freedom.

It is true Capitalism does increase inequality, but is the only economic system that also increases wealth. All the others also increase inequality but don't increase wealth.

Beautiful until last phrase.
You do not necessarily need capitalism to bring freedom and capitalism is not actually anti-authoritan; High income inequality is not just an expression of freedom, actually it decreases freedom.

 

[Mole]

I do not think you have to be a blind follower to see evidence and reasoning for the possibility of a human creator. I have always looked at the complexities of the created world and said it is like art. every canvas has an artist behind it. SOMETHING formed this. We are someone's canvas.

It's true, every painted canvas has an artist, so by sympathetic magic, we say the Universe has an Artist.

Traditional medicine practices sympathetic magic because it is intuitive and believable, just like religion. But when we are sick, we chose evidence based medicine.

 

[Red Memories]

It's true, every painted canvas has an artist, so by sympathetic magic, we say the Universe has an Artist.

Traditional medicine practices sympathetic magic because it is intuitive and believable, just like religion. But when we are sick, we chose evidence based medicine.

My faith is not "magic". I didn't dream up some entity. I think if you really look into faith, you can find many lines overlap and I think those are the things of God we should actually analyze rather than wars and trying to self-righteously always say who is right or wrong faithfully.

I don't think we just randomly ended up here, or this complex universe. Something formed it and there are common themes amongst different theologies which can unite this single line toward God. Spirituality is not so black and white.

 

[Mole]

My faith is not "magic". I didn't dream up some entity. I think if you really look into faith, you can find many lines overlap and I think those are the things of God we should actually analyze rather than wars and trying to self-righteously always say who is right or wrong faithfully. I don't think we just randomly ended up here, or this complex universe. Something formed it and there are common themes amongst different theologies which can unite this single line toward God. Spirituality is not so black and white.

You are right, we did not arrive here by random, we arrived here by natural selection which not random and can be described mathematically in detail. Religions have been here for thousands of years, while natural selection has been here for billions of years.

 

[Coriolis]

A book has an author, so arguing from sympathetic magic, the Universe also has an Author.

So do we believe in magic, or do we believe in evidence and reason?

Yes.

Just as we study human creators by examining their creations, so might we learn about the Divine Creator by studying his creation.

I would like to point out here though...these books that were turned into the Bible, for one, were put together and "decided" by men. Second of all, the psalms were not written by God. They were written by David. Many of the Psalms discuss David's views of the enemy, him calling upon God for help, etc. and more represent a person looking to God and not necessarily the right or wrong way to view God. Proverbs is similar, being done mostly by Solomon, David's son. David was human with flaws as well. These books can have wisdom but I think it is unwise to take the words of any human, even if such words are in the Bible, and hold God to it.

My mother for instance has always have a personal relationship with God and belief. but she struggled when she started talking to people who are denominational, because they called her a bad Christian because she didn't really read her Bible much if at all.

I could debate some on Catholicism - I am technically by baptism, a Catholic. I don't exactly follow them anymore though.

There's a lot of...inner fighting as much as outer fighting in religion. Because everyone wants to believe their view of God is correct. So they become self-righteous about it.

I do not think seeing fallacies in a book that was written and/or put together by earthly people necessarily puts you at odds with God. God is far more than a book.

Amen. Compilation of the Bible as we know it was motivated as much by politics as anything else. Contemporaneous writings about the life of Jesus were excluded. I view the Bible as an accounting of how people of that time and place viewed God, their relationship with him, and their place in the world. We can learn from it, but oftentimes the Bible shows us what NOT to do, rather than what to do. For instance, the father who sends his own daughter out to be raped in order to appease an angry mob.

My faith is not "magic". I didn't dream up some entity. I think if you really look into faith, you can find many lines overlap and I think those are the things of God we should actually analyze rather than wars and trying to self-righteously always say who is right or wrong faithfully.

I don't think we just randomly ended up here, or this complex universe. Something formed it and there are common themes amongst different theologies which can unite this single line toward God. Spirituality is not so black and white.

Faith may not be magical, but it is not logical. I often see faith defined as acceptance of something in the absence of supporting evidence. Nothing wrong with that as long as we don't claim it to be something other than it is, or use it when it is the wrong tool for the job.

I don't see evidence for any so-called "intelligent designer", but I do agree that the common themes among the various theologies are more important than the many, often culture based, features that distinguish them. Have you read Joseph Campbell? He explored these themes extensively in both his books and a series of discussions with Bill Moyers.

 

[Mind Maverick]

I see that people here have not studied the Bible as thoroughly as me. Not surprised. I almost always know more about the Bible than most Christians. Certain things being said here are evidence of the lack of research into it, but I don't know yet whether I will bother explaining their own book to them. I'm not the one who claims the God in it is real despite men writing it anyway. It's just more people picking and choosing what about it they believe in, which makes for hypocrites and people basically following whatever they want to believe, yet claiming their beliefs are from God.

 

[Red Memories]

The Bible, as are many religious books, are subject to interpretation, theological histories, and etc.

And these can be interpreted differently.

We all have our "ideas" of what is the correct point of view for it but ultimately there's misunderstandings within it. Please don't elevate yourself by discrediting other people's perspectives. If you are doing it from a place of arrogance rather than real conversation, perhaps it is best you not elaborate.

 

[Mind Maverick]

The Bible, as are many religious books, are subject to interpretation, theological histories, and etc.

And these can be interpreted differently.

We all have our "ideas" of what is the correct point of view for it but ultimately there's misunderstandings within it. Please don't elevate yourself by discrediting other people's perspectives. If you are doing it from a place of arrogance rather than real conversation, perhaps it is best you not elaborate.

That's always what people say, but some of it says things very plainly in ways that have no more other interpretations than your words here do. There's nothing arrogant about what I'm saying at all. Once again though, the Bible covers the point you're making here in a very straightforward way. If you want to choose to discount and discredit some, but not all of it, then if you ask me...that's the real arrogance, claiming to know what parts are tampered with by men and which aren't. If you believe it's tampered with by men, then tell me - how can you believe in anything it says at all? How do you not have a problem with a book that you believe is both tampered with by men, and also requires faith to believe in? How do you not have a problem with that being what this supposedly all powerful, all knowing, all good God left people with to save their souls from hell, if you believe that's true?

 

[Red Memories]

There's nothing wrong with you feeling how you do [MENTION=36353]Aerix[/MENTION], there's something wrong with how you phrased it. And you do this kind of often. You excuse it by calling people oversensitive or misunderstanding you but when you phrase it this way it is difficult to take it anyway else.

I see that people here have not studied the Bible as thoroughly as me. - I personally have read my Bible front to back twice. Sure, probably not as intensely. Do you major in Christian Theology? Can you read Hebrew and Greek and know the actual misdirected translations? Do you have a PHD in Theology? Show me those credentials and I will accept this data. I say this because I thought I knew my Bible quite well and I then took a religious class in my college, and my teacher LITERALLY knew Hebrew. But my god me and her had some AMAZING discussions and it really opened my mind to a lot of new perspectives on faith.

Not surprised. I almost always know more about the Bible than most Christians. - This is you chanting how great and knowledgable you are while stating someone like me doesn't know as much as you so you are "better" than me. It is a tone. Read it back.

Certain things being said here are evidence of the lack of research into it, but I don't know yet whether I will bother explaining their own book to them. - Don't want to bother explaining something to us idiots over here. That's fine.

I'm not the one who claims the God in it is real despite men writing it anyway. - There are people who find spritiuality without ever reading some manmade book. Do you discredit them too?

It's just more people picking and choosing what about it they believe in, which makes for hypocrites and people basically following whatever they want to believe, yet claiming their beliefs are from God. - This could be elaborated, perhaps taken better, if you hadn't made the first 3 or 4 extremely arrogant and brash statements you made.

Now I'll respond to your second part because to be honest as well as this discourse has gone between ALL the parties, I was really pissed that you posted that post. It is disrespectful, it is baiting for a fight, and frankly it is hard to believe you don't just hate Christians or you actually don't think you're better than someone like me when you talk like THAT.

That's always what people say, but some of it says things very plainly in ways that have no more other interpretations than your words here do. - There are historical events in the Bible in which are quite negative. Yes God did not stop them. No I don't not have an elaborate explanation of why God allows pain and suffering. I follow the theorem of the Trinity and the Trinity has God as 3 divine persons in 1 being. These persons are different but they are all God. God is the judge, the one who condemns and brings justice. Jesus is God's love. The Holy Spirit is God's wisdom upon us. That is my faith. Which I know you don't subscribe to and that is fine. What is not fine is the way I see you talk about faith around here like people who follow God are way below your intelligence level. Have we ever had trouble speaking intelligently? If you have to reduce to jabbing and personal attacks of people's intelligence I have to wonder what is really under the surface there.

There's nothing arrogant about what I'm saying at all. - I think I clarified why your statement is arrogant.

Once again though, the Bible covers the point you're making here in a very straightforward way. If you want to choose to discount and discredit some, but not all of it, then if you ask me...that's the real arrogance, claiming to know what parts are tampered with by men and which aren't. - Did I pick and choose to "discredit" certain parts as decided by man? I follow the Bible more as a "guidance" rather than "really from God's hand." In the past I subscribed to the theory that the Bible, was in fact, Inspired and came straight from God. I now subscribe to the theory that the Bible is a tool for my faith but it is tampered by man and cannot be the all ends of knowing the Lord. It is vital to have a personal relationship with Him. There's not a "book" to it. The book is stories of faith and growth and also a lot of the failures of mankind and I think as [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] said, there's a lot of "what not to dos" in it. Do not suggest I did something I did not do.

If you believe it's tampered with by men, then tell me - how can you believe in anything it says at all?: Because God isn't a book. And you can have a personal relationship with God without reading a book.

How do you not have a problem with a book that you believe is both tampered with by men, and also requires faith to believe in?: All religion and spirituality requires some semblance of faith. There are theories but nothing can be set in stone. Many theories exist, even some without God, of how this all came to be. You're welcome to believe in one of the other ones. I believe in mine.

How do you not have a problem with that being what this supposedly all powerful, all knowing, all good God left people with to save their souls from hell, if you believe that's true? - Because if people seek God, truly, and not just some authority telling them how to interpret it, they'll find a philosophy. God stood right over the Israelites while they made false images to worship. I think the point of that story is for some the reality can be in front of them and they still will not in fact believe in it and choose whatever they feel protects them or elevates them. In the New Testament you can see how people even took the strict following of books to become self-righteous judgers and they were condemned as well. Man is corrupt. I do not blame God for man's corruption.

 

[Mind Maverick]

Just because you take things the way you have, doesn't mean that's what was said. For instance, saying that I usually know more about the Bible than most Christians is a simple fact. Most of them go on about shit like "The 3 kings that brought baby Jesus gifts" for example, have that shit as decorations in their yard around Christmas time even, and that shit is nowhere in the Bible. I never claimed to be the most knowledgeable, in fact I was saying quite the opposite, that most believers do not know much about the book they believe in at all.

It's always a shame when people react like this to these kinds of dynamics.

 

[Mind Maverick]

Another example...

Certain things being said here are evidence of the lack of research into it, but I don't know yet whether I will bother explaining their own book to them. - Don't want to bother explaining something to us idiots over here. That's fine.

The problem here is not my phrasing, it's you putting words in my mouth that weren't actually there. In reality, I wasn't sure whether I should add it or not, as I considered that it may only lead to even more dissension. Most religious people get defensive over religious beliefs. They become angered rather than conceding or discussing it if there is a valid point.

"Evil surmise" as you will, though. It never mattered anyway.

 

[Mind Maverick]

Actually, after rereading my own message I can better understand why it was provoking, and I apologize. You're correct that I should've phrased things differently. My judgment behind what I was saying at the time I was writing that was clouded by my own bias...a bias of anger. Most people will rattle off all these stories and whatever, but can't accurately tell you something as simple as what the Bible really says about how to become saved.

 

[Mind Maverick]

Further still, it's upsetting to read people defend points made about the Bible with things like "it's open to interpretation." Believing in the Bible is an extremely illogical thing regardless of what angle you approach it from, and that's part of what makes it so toxic in my opinion - but believing in every word consistently, and believing that all scripture is in fact inspired by the holy spirit - ok, I can work with that, at that point it comes down to finding logical reasons the book isn't true....but to believe in it when you believe it's written by man is even worse, because then you basically don't even believe in the book that you believe in. It makes no fucking sense to me. So yes, the deficit of logic behind it is upsetting, and I do have a problem with impatience for illogical things in general, and my impatience did show there.

 

[Red Memories]

Actually, after rereading my own message I can better understand why it was provoking, and I apologize. You're correct that I should've phrased things differently. My judgment behind what I was saying at the time I was writing that was clouded by my own bias...a bias of anger. Most people will rattle off all these stories and whatever, but can't accurately tell you something as simple as what the Bible really says about how to become saved.

I deleted my post in response here because after I saw you wrote this. XD Although there were some solid points. I had aforementioned I know you have some personal anger with faith.

I will relay a point to you though:
I actually enjoy discussing faith with people. Perhaps that is strange but I always obtain understanding. A long time online friend I have is an atheistic satanist who sends me drawings of the pope performing lustful behaviors. He listens to Marilyn Manson and he loves porn. We're like polar opposites. But we have very fruitful discussions of matters, including religion. That is because I opened my mind to differing ideas than me.

But to be clear, I think perhaps we came from differing places here. Religion around you was used to abuse and defend such abuse. My mother believed in us having a choice so she did not force religion upon us. But I did feel abandoned by people, rejected, unwanted, discarded. When I ended up in the psyche ward, I ended up with literally no one. My family did not even want to talk to me. I just left severe emotional abuse. And that is when I developed spirituality and not religion. I used to be one of those people you are discussing. That person that reads my book, believes it, and sits around telling others they're wrong for not doing so. Spirituality is so much different than religion. God is so much different than the various books that try to explain Him or his actions. When I opened my heart truly, I found a different kind of "faith". I would say a real one, not an authoritarian described one. It felt like those 8 months that Jesus was giving me this warm hug while I cried. I realize this is not everyone's experience, not everyone may have it, but this is why I ascribe sprituality as very "personal". Religion is a process, a rule book. Spirituality is the relationship, the heart, the actual faith. Many people who call themselves religious never find that aforementioned spirituality. I choose to try and follow the way of Christ, which is a path of love, of understanding, of kindness. And this does not mean making others follow. He never forced anyone to follow Him. but he listened. He heard. He did not come to judge, he came to help. And that is the life I want to lead as a person. That is why I call myself a "Christian" albeit a nontraditional one. The closest thing I found to other people like this was the college church of the Nazarenes I was in when I went to the school. If you cried someone would pray over you. No one forced you to convert. No one forced you to believe in God, or even believe in God the same way. This openness from a Church community almost felt weird to me. There's usually so many judgments and doors in front of you. I am always the first to say the worst people I've had the honor of associating with is sadly, other Christians.

 

[Mind Maverick]

I deleted my post in response here because after I saw you wrote this. XD Although there were some solid points.

Lol, I bet, considering I was wrong.

I only have so much attention span without ADHD meds, I'll reply to the rest later. If I don't it means I forgot, just poke me.

 

[Mind Maverick]

Just a quick clarification - I was not claiming you were right on every point you made, btw. I don't agree with everything said.

 

[Vendrah]

I choose to try and follow the way of Christ, which is a path of love, of understanding, of kindness. And this does not mean making others follow.

I like that, really!
But [MENTION=36353]Aerix[/MENTION] has some good points.

 

[Red Memories]

Just a quick clarification - I was not claiming you were right on every point you made, btw. I don't agree with everything said.

I doubt you did.