Let's talk the dislike of religion and spirituality.

[Mind Maverick]

I mean, not believing in the 10 commandments does not mean believing in the 10 inverse commandments, i.e. "do lie, do steal, do kill, do have adultery, etc."

This is very true, albeit I also do not perceive the Bible as something moral in the first place, considering in the OT God ordered Jews to murder babies just because they were Palestinian. In other words, in the Bible, "do not murder" doesn't consistently mean "do not murder" either, lol.

EDIT:
Furthermore, the same God that said "do not murder" also couldn't regulate his own emotions without the murder of countless animals as sacrifices despite supposedly being all powerful and all knowing. I don't exactly trust the morals of a God who becomes happier when animals are killed. That should invoke wrath, not appease it.

 

[tony_goth]

This is very true, albeit I also do not perceive the Bible as something moral in the first place, considering in the OT God ordered Jews to murder babies just because they were Palestinian. In other words, in the Bible, "do not murder" doesn't consistently mean "do not murder" either, lol.

It does look like a harsh thing, and God's orders are sometimes very hard to understand.

This really looks like a war-like situation in a believers' context. When a baby is killed, he's killed as an innocent and will not go to Hell. As an adult he may commit mortal sins, be killed and go to Hell.

God did say the general rule "do not kill". But it's... a general rule, and derogatory situations exist, such as somebody pointing a gun in front of you, or death penalty for terrorists, or even destroying an important bridge where there is an innocent infant civilian because more civilian people would be killed if enemies cross that bridge.

There is even a Catholic dogma which says the "do not steal" commandment may see derogatory situations such has "extremely grave reasons", such has stealing food while starving to death.

God often asks us to act as warriors and not as Care Bears. You're an Eight and you probably know that reality more than me.

EDIT:
Furthermore, the same God that said "do not murder" also couldn't regulate his own emotions without the murder of countless animals as sacrifices despite supposedly being all powerful and all knowing. I don't exactly trust the morals of a God who becomes happier when animals are killed.

God does not become happier because animals are killed.

God becomes happier because people obey when asked His orders.

Sometimes God's orders are very mysterious. But a believer thinks "God asks you something, you obey. Period." or "you may try to understand God's orders but in the end you do not dispute them".

 

[Mind Maverick]

God does not become happier because animals are killed.

God becomes happier because people obey when asked His orders.

Sometimes God's orders are very mysterious. But a believer thinks "God asks you something, you obey. Period." or "you may try to understand God's orders but in the end you do not dispute them".

I'm playing a game rn and don't feel like writing up a long post, so I'll reply to the rest later, but just wanted to say real quick:

• The Abrahamic God required animal sacrifices to appease His wrath.
• If your wrath is appeased, that means you feel better, happier; there are some scriptures in the Bible where it says "and it pleased God." I believe one part is when Solomon kills a fuck ton of them.
• Even if it was about people obeying Him rather than the sacrifices themselves, God would have to delight in it in order to order people to make those sacrifices.

"Don't say the word fuck or be homosexual, but it's okay to kill animals." Seems backwards to me.
"God gave everyone free choice" and yet psychopaths don't have that choice because their brains don't function normally, they can't have that empathy religion requires, so by that logic they were born destined for hell because God made it possible for some people to be incapable of living that life sincerely.
There's even a place in the Bible where God told David to say something in particular, except that thing he said to say wasn't even true. Lol so basically, God told David to lie, but everyone else or any other time people are sent to hell for all eternity for doing it? Meh. The Bible is very obviously created by man. Most religious people are also hypocritical just like God.

 

[Mind Maverick]

In short, I think religion is toxic to religious people as well as others. I hate religion but I don't hate religious people. I see it as...it's deceiving and brainwashing a lot of people and has had a lot of harmful impact upon society.

 

[tony_goth]

I will reply as a Catholic. Please excuse me in advance, because I'm gonna write in a "believer's mode".

I'm playing a game rn and don't feel like writing up a long post, so I'll reply to the rest later, but just wanted to say real quick:

You just wrote a long post, didn't you ?

• The Abrahamic God required animal sacrifices to appease His wrath.
• If your wrath is appeased, that means you feel better, happier; there are some scriptures in the Bible where it says "and it pleased God." I believe one part is when Solomon kills a fuck ton of them.
• Even if it was about people obeying Him rather than the sacrifices themselves, God would have to delight in it in order to order people to make those sacrifices.

Actually God didn't "require" anything nor He was "wrathful" like a human being is. But that didn't prevent those who were told to sacrifice animals from actually requiring to do it.

God is happier and more delighted when obeyed, but in an accidental way and not in an essential way. God told He was "wrathful" in order to communicate in a pushy way because He was asking something very, very important and which has to be done "asap", and warned His subjects that procrastination would not be tolerated. But there is no essential difference between an obeyed God or a disobeyed God, He's the same God whatever humans do.

Solomon was essentially a king, and he had to sacrifice a ton of animals pretty much like many later kings or presidents had to sign a ton of administrative documents.

"Don't say the word fuck or be homosexual, but it's okay to kill animals." Seems backwards to me.
"God gave everyone free choice" and yet psychopaths don't have that choice because their brains don't function normally, they can't have that empathy religion requires, so by that logic they were born destined for hell because God made it possible for some people to be incapable of living that life sincerely.
There's even a place in the Bible where God told David to say something in particular, except that thing he said to say wasn't even true. Lol so basically, God told David to lie, but everyone else or any other time people are sent to hell for all eternity for doing it? Meh. The Bible is very obviously created by man. Most religious people are also hypocritical just like God.

It seems backwards to you and I totally respect it. But it didn't seem backwards to those people in the past.

God did gave everyone free choice, in the sense of choosing amongst distinguished goods, or choosing good or evil.

Psychopaths are mentally ill and may have impaired judgment. In strictly moral terms it's a mitigating (and sometimes excusing) factor for sinning. But that definitively doesn't mean that materially infracting people don't have to be materially punished (incarcerated) or at least prevented enforcingly from damaging society (placed in a closed psychiatric institution).

God told David to lie because there was some derogatory situation at some point and probably to test David's humility (David was known to have been extremely humble). God does rule the world by general rules, but derogate to them by making miracles.

Most religious people are hypocritical for a reason you'll see below. But I don't see fair derogations of rules as hypocritical.

In short, I think religion is toxic to religious people as well as others. I hate religion but I don't hate religious people. I see it as...it's deceiving and brainwashing a lot of people and has had a lot of harmful impact upon society.

Religion may be toxic/deceiving, especially if not dealt with (i.e. interpretated) correctly, be it when listened by religious or non-religious people.

Religious brainwashing means "forcing the moral conscience", and I used to be brainwashed by fundamentalist Catholics (priests lied to me, especially when saying "this is sinful" when it's actually not).

Unfortunately religious brainwashing is common among religious leaders who either don't really understand religion or purposefully teach a distorted religion in order to fulfill their material interests.

 

[Red Herring]

Sometimes God's orders are very mysterious. But a believer thinks "God asks you something, you obey. Period." or "you may try to understand God's orders but in the end you do not dispute them".

That actually just made my blood freeze a bit. Obedience at the core of a value system is just .... highly problematic, I think.

I would feel extremely uncomfortable living around people with that kind of ethos, knowing they could kill me, my husband or my children anytime they thought or were told by a cleric that this is what God wants.

There is a reason why I am so troubled with the story of Abraham being willing to sacrifice his son. As I understand the story, God wanted proof that Abraham's blind obedience was greater than his own moral compass or his love for his only child. He did and God rewarded him for his willingness to be a murderer to his own child. That is super-creepy!

 

[SirCanSir]

you're also not as intelligent as you profess. why in this case am i the wrong party, when she insulted me? doesn't she have some culpability here, or is it ALL on me? i know she's your friend, but if you're this uber-smart as you profess then perhaps learn to read situations better.

You should get more productive with your free time man. Literally anything is better than what you are trying to do here.

 

[Vendrah]

I did not want to come here to the heat of the discussion just because of... Somebody on my friend list could being oversensitive about it, so I didn't even clicked likes recently [on this thread] - all but one.

You just wrote a long post, didn't you ?

Actually, she didn't. It has only 3 paragraphs.

God is (...) God didn't (...) God told (...) God does (...)

Well, after putting some thought of time, I think this is where the problem of most religion relies.

I think God exists at least as an human idea. Different places had this same concept - of a supreme being, a creator of our world and humanity.
However, many societies wanted to dictate what God is, what God is not, what God has done, what God has not done, what God say, what God did not say, things like that. And some, what God wants, what God does not wants, and that with a good emphasis on: 'You should obey' & 'you will be rewarded if you obey' & 'be prepared to obey any order and sacrifice anything' & 'you will suffer if you don't obey' & 'you have to have faith in everything said/written here' (these are explicit or implicit in most, if not all of religions). Some did even claim they were the society God did prefer over the others.

However, no God had ever actually came to do these statements in public - by the human idea core concept (even if we don't have an exactly definition this definitely exists), God could show up and tell everyone that he wants this, he wants that, and God could do that by communicating directly to everyone - which would be a billion time more efficient than telling one people that is supposed to tell everybody. What we do have are man who claims that God says this, God says that, God is specifically this, God is not specifically that.. Either today and a lot in the past. God per se is not asking ANY of these things, because God per se has powers, by definition, to communicate whatever God wants to communicate to everybody, that is in the core definition of a powerful creator.

We have many different religions that does many conflictual affirmations - we have one sort of God from the jews, we have another sort of God from the Christian, another sort of God on the Islamism, and there is more I am just lazy to remember and mention. As factual truth, not a truth by any book, at least more than half of them are lying or have lies due to them conflicting each other. Each has the 'selected' people who were select to speak and spread the word of God (but remember that God is creator? If God is creator, than his desires are already spread on the creation!), yet since these are in conflict that means that some of them are just man who wants to control what God is, what God is not, what God says, what God does not say, etc.. Through a moralistic point, 'stealing God's mouth' is such a terrible and destructive 'sin', yet we do have at least one major movement that is doing that with many millions of followers.

I believe that many people seek God, but they are doing a potentially terrible mistake when they let man (dead or alive), with risky bad intentions, to dictate their relationship and belief of God, turning a pure yet simple belief into a more complex yet imminently impure and imminently prone to distortions belief.

Belief in God, per se, and I am talking God per se and not by any specific God of any religion, is indeed respectful and it is not meant to disrespect anyone else - it doesn't really come with an instruction 'believe me or suffer' in the core definition.

 

[Red Memories]

Technically the ritual was a "scapegoat" sort of thing in which Jews sacrificed an animal to take the heat for their sins. It was meant to represent the future in which Jesus, the unblemished lamb, came to be sacrificed for the sins of all and ultimately reopen the gates of heaven.

Obviously, though, everyone has their own views here.

Similarly, the story of Isaac and Abraham was not directly about killing, but directly about being willing to give up the thing that is most important to us in order to follow the Lord. The angel stopped Abraham because God did not want the sacrifice - it was more a test.

Most of the stories within the Bible are more symbolic than fully accurate. You could also say later things come back around (Herod having first born Jews killed, etc.)

 

[Red Memories]

That actually just made my blood freeze a bit. Obedience at the core of a value system is just .... highly problematic, I think.

I would feel extremely uncomfortable living around people with that kind of ethos, knowing they could kill me, my husband or my children anytime they thought or were told by a cleric that this is what God wants.

There is a reason why I am so troubled with the story of Abraham being willing to sacrifice his son. As I understand the story, God wanted proof that Abraham's blind obedience was greater than his own moral compass or his love for his only child. He did and God rewarded him for his willingness to be a murderer to his own child. That is super-creepy!

Obviously, I would be lying if I said no clerics of sort suggest this sort of blind obedience as core to following the faith. But I think it is a flawed approach, especially in respect that if we want to get into the spirituality of it. Satan/Lucifer is capable of creating false illusions which can appear like God is speaking to you, but actually be wrong. I think C.S. Lewis did a fantastic job in the Screwtape Letters of pointing out inherent flaws in many believers although he a believer himself. It is very easy to warp faith to be exactly what you want it to be or mean what you want it to mean - good or bad alike. as [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] stated, the big man in the sky hasn't actually come to present himself and tell us all hey this is inaccurate or etc.

It is very easy for the evil side to warp too blind of following that is not grounded in a true relationship with God and understanding of His word.

I have followed a sort of non-denominational path and I prefer to just ask God myself when I am confused. Sometimes my replies align, sometimes they don't.

 

[Red Memories]

In short, I think religion is toxic to religious people as well as others. I hate religion but I don't hate religious people. I see it as...it's deceiving and brainwashing a lot of people and has had a lot of harmful impact upon society.

I think sometimes I can understand why despite many Christians saying they hate the sin not the sinner, how it can feel like despite that you are still hated. Because as a Christian when I hear people dogging Christianity, suggesting people who believe are illogical or inferior in thought, etc. I realize in my heart yes they mean they dislike the religion itself. But my faith is part of me, it is part of my daily process and my philosophy on life. So it DOES feel like I am actually hated by these people. That there is little way we could get along in the long run because no matter what by that point of view I am smaller than them. Less able to think than them. All this sort of implied stuff.

I have a long time satanist friend. He often suggests he hopes one day I cleanse myself of the chains of religion and stop being brainwashed. But my spirituality is part of me. I see this world as a very spiritual place. I am not exactly a "traditional" sort of Christian but I follow it. And it hurts when people think less of me or assume what I believe to be negative based on that.

We may never know the real truth of the matter. But we can agree that not all believers handle faith the correct way.

 

[Mind Maverick]

I think sometimes I can understand why despite many Christians saying they hate the sin not the sinner, how it can feel like despite that you are still hated. Because as a Christian when I hear people dogging Christianity, suggesting people who believe are illogical or inferior in thought, etc. I realize in my heart yes they mean they dislike the religion itself. But my faith is part of me, it is part of my daily process and my philosophy on life. So it DOES feel like I am actually hated by these people. That there is little way we could get along in the long run because no matter what by that point of view I am smaller than them. Less able to think than them. All this sort of implied stuff.

I have a long time satanist friend. He often suggests he hopes one day I cleanse myself of the chains of religion and stop being brainwashed. But my spirituality is part of me. I see this world as a very spiritual place. I am not exactly a "traditional" sort of Christian but I follow it. And it hurts when people think less of me or assume what I believe to be negative based on that.

We may never know the real truth of the matter. But we can agree that not all believers handle faith the correct way.

I think it's dumb when people act like believing in it says something about a person's intelligence level. I used to believe in it all, and now I don't, so am I in the semi-intelligent/semi-logical category, or was I dumb/illogical but somehow miraculously became intelligent/logical? Lol. I will always challenge things in the Bible logically though, and I did that when I believed as well just because I believe that if something is true it should have no problem standing firmly still despite being questioned, challenged, and evaluated. <- This part ties into what @Red Herring mentioned also, since my experiences are wide ranging and diverse enough for me to speak from the viewpoint of a believer as well. -> I was never, ever the Sheeple type. I don't even agree with it when a parent teaches their children "because I said so," as I believe that it instills this kind of thinking from a young age. Some of the Christians I knew would actually teach them that way BECAUSE of that though, as they believed in obeying without questioning and interpreted questioning as rebellion for some reason.

Going back to that diversity in experiences though, it's not just that I've been a Christian and then not a Christian, either; it's that I've experienced firsthand multiple types of Christianity, as well as considering various viewpoints of many different types of Christians, and also observing and analyzing/considering other Abrahamic religions (Catholicism in particular), trying to comprehend things through their eyes, in an attempt to discover the truth. However, I firmly believe that the Bible quite clearly says Catholicism is not in line with the teachings of Christ or the Bible. I also think it's excruciatingly hollow and ritualistic in most cases anyway. I didn't go deep into Catholicism, the excerpts in the Bible that speak against Catholic practices and beliefs aren't even analogous (thus open to interpretation) or something, so I closed the door on that avenue pretty swiftly. Christianity, on the other hand, is a subject I'm actually very well educated about in a way that is not limited to merely one angle I approached it from, which I know is rather different than how most have experienced religion. I've been exposed to many types; from nasty Pharisees, to devout followers who lived by every word who I greatly respect and see as some of the most wonderful people I've ever met in my life, to several grey shades in-between. I might not know exactly what your beliefs are, but I do understand how you'd be upset when someone lumps you in with the Pharisees, for example, just because that's common and the only kind of Christian they've encountered. I also understand where you're coming from with the inferiority/superiority dynamics in that. Even as a nonbeliever now, I still see it as a wall between us that obstructs the relationship when a person has these sorts of dynamics going on in the relationship because of things besides religion.

My PC has been freezing a lot so I'll continue in a new post just so I don't lose what I've typed if it freezes.

 

[Mind Maverick]

My issues with religion, particularly Abrahamic religions, are not related to my direct experiences between religious individuals and myself whatsoever. My issues with it pertain to the Bible itself and the concept of the God of the Bible. Aside from contradictions in the Bible (which I've studied a lot, used to read it and analyze it several hours per day for several years in total, and often with others also asking their own questions and many people discussing various explanations or answers in things, coming from different angles therefore)--...

...Fuck, there are so many things I have in mind to say that it's actually difficult for me to even organize my thoughts currently. My mind is racing through it all and not having ADHD medication is not helping.

I really don't know how to condense this post well, even. I could legit create an entire thread by myself on this subject.

I also work in a few hours and still haven't slept because I'm too awake to, but I need to close my eyes and try again.

I'll come back to this later.

 

[Mind Maverick]

I will say real quick though, that what I believe about Christianity isn't that different than what the Bible says about nonbelievers. It's not just your point (@Red Memories) about "hating the sin, not the sinners;" the Bible basically says nonbelievers are deceived and brainwashed by Satan and the world, just as I believe the Bible is deceiving and brainwashing religious people. I was actually already prepared to present this point if anyone said they were offended by what I said. I caution you not to personalize peoples' beliefs about religion. I'm very cautious about saying these kinds of things since I'm careful not to invalidate peoples' feelings, but you shouldn't find it in any way offensive if someone says the Bible is illogical.

The Bible says "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." -Psalm 14:1 ....... I mean, this is basically God's word saying I'm a fool and I have bad character because I don't believe this God is real. It's not even a religious person saying it, it's the religion itself, which people practice and adhere to. This is what it teaches them all, that I am a fool and that I don't do good. Technically, if it's offensive when someone claims that religious people are illogical, and that religion is inherently bad, then the flip side of the coin should also be offensive; but then that would mean what God says is offensive. Personally, I am not offended. I don't personalize it. I just expect consistency in beliefs because otherwise it's hypocrisy / double standards. If it's wrong to say someone is a fool for believing, why isn't it wrong to say someone is a fool for not believing? Personally, I believe both are wrong. This is just one more example of why I don't even see God as a moral entity though...albeit a small one compared to things like massacres of firstborn babies just because the Pharaoh was being stubborn BECAUSE HE HARDENED PHARAOH'S HEART SO THAT HE WOULD BE.

In other words, I agree with you, but by doing so I don't agree with God/the Bible.

 

[Red Memories]

I will say real quick though, that what I believe about Christianity isn't that different than what the Bible says about nonbelievers. It's not just your point (@Red Memories) about "hating the sin, not the sinners;" the Bible basically says nonbelievers are deceived and brainwashed by Satan and the world, just as I believe the Bible is deceiving and brainwashing religious people. I was actually already prepared to present this point if anyone said they were offended by what I said. I caution you not to personalize peoples' beliefs about religion. I'm very cautious about saying these kinds of things since I'm careful not to invalidate peoples' feelings, but you shouldn't find it in any way offensive if someone says the Bible is illogical.

The Bible says "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." -Psalm 14:1 ....... I mean, this is basically God's word saying I'm a fool and I have bad character because I don't believe this God is real. It's not even a religious person saying it, it's the religion itself, which people practice and adhere to. This is what it teaches them all, that I am a fool and that I don't do good. Technically, if it's offensive when someone claims that religious people are illogical, and that religion is inherently bad, then the flip side of the coin should also be offensive; but then that would mean what God says is offensive. Personally, I am not offended. I don't personalize it. I just expect consistency in beliefs because otherwise it's hypocrisy / double standards. If it's wrong to say someone is a fool for believing, why isn't it wrong to say someone is a fool for not believing? Personally, I believe both are wrong. This is just one more example of why I don't even see God as a moral entity though...albeit a small one compared to things like massacres of firstborn babies just because the Pharaoh was being stubborn BECAUSE HE HARDENED PHARAOH'S HEART SO THAT HE WOULD BE.

In other words, I agree with you, but by doing so I don't agree with God/the Bible.

I would like to point out here though...these books that were turned into the Bible, for one, were put together and "decided" by men. Second of all, the psalms were not written by God. They were written by David. Many of the Psalms discuss David's views of the enemy, him calling upon God for help, etc. and more represent a person looking to God and not necessarily the right or wrong way to view God. Proverbs is similar, being done mostly by Solomon, David's son. David was human with flaws as well. These books can have wisdom but I think it is unwise to take the words of any human, even if such words are in the Bible, and hold God to it.

My mother for instance has always have a personal relationship with God and belief. but she struggled when she started talking to people who are denominational, because they called her a bad Christian because she didn't really read her Bible much if at all.

I could debate some on Catholicism - I am technically by baptism, a Catholic. I don't exactly follow them anymore though.

There's a lot of...inner fighting as much as outer fighting in religion. Because everyone wants to believe their view of God is correct. So they become self-righteous about it.

I do not think seeing fallacies in a book that was written and/or put together by earthly people necessarily puts you at odds with God. God is far more than a book.

 

[Mole]

I would like to point out here though...these books that were turned into the Bible, for one, were put together and "decided" by men. Second of all, the psalms were not written by God. They were written by David. Many of the Psalms discuss David's views of the enemy, him calling upon God for help, etc. and more represent a person looking to God and not necessarily the right or wrong way to view God. Proverbs is similar, being done mostly by Solomon, David's son. David was human with flaws as well. These books can have wisdom but I think it is unwise to take the words of any human, even if such words are in the Bible, and hold God to it. My mother for instance has always have a personal relationship with God and belief. but she struggled when she started talking to people who are denominational, because they called her a bad Christian because she didn't really read her Bible much if at all. I could debate some on Catholicism - I am technically by baptism, a Catholic. I don't exactly follow them anymore though. There's a lot of...inner fighting as much as outer fighting in religion. Because everyone wants to believe their view of God is correct. So they become self-righteous about it. I do not think seeing fallacies in a book that was written and/or put together by earthly people necessarily puts you at odds with God. God is far more than a book.

A book has an author, so arguing from sympathetic magic, the Universe also has an Author.

So do we believe in magic, or do we believe in evidence and reason?

 

[Red Memories]

A book has an author, so arguing from sympathetic magic, the Universe also has an Author.

So do we believe in magic, or do we believe in evidence and reason?

I do not think you have to be a blind follower to see evidence and reasoning for the possibility of a human creator. I have always looked at the complexities of the created world and said it is like art. every canvas has an artist behind it. SOMETHING formed this. We are someone's canvas.

 

[Totenkindly]

That is a perspective, I guess.

It's just that we are within the actual world and part of it -- we are not outside observers with no relationship to the world -- so of course anything around us would look "right" in the natural sense -- as much as your right tibia would look at the rest of the body formed around it and working efficiently in conjunction with it and view the whole thing as aesthetically right, if it were at all aware.

Everything in nature branches off other things, pieces are replicated, and so forth, in the typical way they would be with all the natural false starts and stops of something developing off what has come before. I don't really see anything external to it, it all seems self-contained, self-regulating, and self-referencing, running on autopilot.

 

[tony_goth]

That actually just made my blood freeze a bit. Obedience at the core of a value system is just .... highly problematic, I think.

I pretty much have an acquired a strong reluctance with authority, but because of repeated authority abuse, not because authority itself is stupid. I read in some book "authority abusers are very likely to go to Hell".

This pretty much drove me to choose an authoritarian wife. I'm not a feminist, but as Catholic priests used to abuse their authority towards me, I tend to think "the most beautiful women have some spiritual authority because God gave them physical attractiveness for a reason" ; I know it might look delusional but I didn't find another solution because I tend to lack humility and I really don't want to become an author of domestic violence, especially in front or towards children. In one year she had be very harsh and sometimes military-like, but never was unfair to me.

But believers think "God never abuses His authority because He never sins" and "God's representatives are not God". But in a simpler and non-believer-friendly we'd say "obeying to one's moral conscience and obeying to God is the same thing".

 

[Vendrah]

I do not think you have to be a blind follower to see evidence and reasoning for the possibility of a human creator. I have always looked at the complexities of the created world and said it is like art. every canvas has an artist behind it. SOMETHING formed this. We are someone's canvas.

& [MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION], although I don't think Mole really suggested that.

As an agnostic, I must remember that there is no evidence and reasoning for the existence of God and neither evidence and reasoning against God. As I said before, I do think that the pure belief on God is very respectable and I don't think its really magical thinking - but things changes a lot when you have a specific religion telling what God is and what is not, tbh I even found in the big picture this to be a completely lack of respect for the real God - imagine how unrespectful and 'sinful' is to start wars just to see who define who have the authority to say what/who God is or is not, what God said or not said.