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Let's talk the dislike of religion and spirituality.

Tennessee Jed

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I believe in God. I dislike religion.

I don't believe in God. But I like religion.

I agree, religion (as well as politics) has created the greatest divisions among people. And it’s just sad, to say the least.

It's true that religion and politics result in echo chambers, tribalism, division, abuse, etc. But they also represent unifying forces, culture, and civilization. Carl Jung said that in childhood our superego is formed and modeled by our parents; in adulthood, our superego is formed and modeled by the prevailing "cultural canon" as expressed by our religion, culture, tribal rituals and rites, etc. Without all that stuff, we would have nothing.

The trick is in finding balance. That is, encourage some group culture (via things like religion and politics) while also allowing for tolerance and individualism and expression of dissent.

I don't practice Christmas either. But hey, happy holidays to those who do. :)
 

Firebird 8118

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It's true that religion and politics result in echo chambers, tribalism, division, abuse, etc. But they also represent unifying forces, culture, and civilization. Carl Jung said that in childhood our superego is formed and modeled by our parents; in adulthood, our superego is formed and modeled by the prevailing "cultural canon" as expressed by our religion, culture, tribal rituals and rites, etc. Without all that stuff, we would have nothing.

The trick is in finding balance. That is, encourage some group culture (via things like religion and politics) while also allowing for tolerance and individualism and expression of dissent.

I don't practice Christmas either. But hey, happy holidays to those who do. :)

See, here’s a few things I don’t like about religions (or rather, religious institutions in general):

1) The idea that one group is “chosen” by God and that all others are heathens/infidels.

2) The idea that women are inferior (in ISKCON for example, less intelligent) and not suitable to become priests, enter temples during periods, sit wherever the men sit, etc.

3) The idea that we must fear God and do everything to please Him (which is primitive to say the least, and the exact opposite of the freedom I find in loving God as a friend).

4) The idea that we as common people are not worthy to communicate with God/divine angels unless it’s through an ordained priest or some other medium (when my experiences have shown me otherwise).

All of these, among other ideas, are meant to keep the masses suppressed. That’s why I’ve become disillusioned in religion and have started on a path of universal spirituality instead which includes everyone.

You’re right in that religion and politics do not have to be this way. But things won’t improve in either until and unless there is a worldwide shift in consciousness, in which we come to realize that our differences need not divide us from each other. Until then, we will continue to see systemic racism, wars, poverty, homelessness, crimes against women and LGBTQ+ people, etc.
 

Tennessee Jed

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See, here’s a few things I don’t like about religions (or rather, religious institutions in general):

1) The idea that one group is “chosen” by God and that all others are heathens/infidels.

2) The idea that women are inferior (in ISKCON for example, less intelligent) and not suitable to become priests, enter temples during periods, sit wherever the men sit, etc.

3) The idea that we must fear God and do everything to please Him (which is primitive to say the least, and the exact opposite of the freedom I find in loving God as a friend).

4) The idea that we as common people are not worthy to communicate with God/divine angels unless it’s through an ordained priest or some other medium (when my experiences have shown me otherwise).

All of these, among other ideas, are meant to keep the masses suppressed. That’s why I’ve become disillusioned in religion and have started on a path of universal spirituality instead which includes everyone.

You’re right in that religion and politics do not have to be this way. But things won’t improve in either until and unless there is a worldwide shift in consciousness, in which we come to realize that our differences need not divide us from each other. Until then, we will continue to see systemic racism, wars, poverty, homelessness, crimes against women and LGBTQ+ people, etc.

Any sort of group/collectivist/tribal/community belief or sentiment can turn exclusionary and scary when taken to the extremes. IOW, the problem isn't just with religions or politics; instead, the source of the problem is group dynamics in general: Groups--any kind of group--can get inbred and turn into an echo chamber and turn poisonous.

But the other extreme can be just as bad or worse. For example, when you toss out all group or community experiences and say that everything is relative and arbitrary and meaningless. When everything becomes meaningless, you get caught up in existentialist anxiety. When nothing means anything and everything is relative, then you're stuck in one place forever.

In Jungian terms, the problem amounts to collectivism vs individualism: Either position can be taken to extremes that are poisonous.

As I suggested in my previous post, the solution is to avoid extremes. Enjoy the experience of being part of a group or community or religion and have values of one kind or another; but also respect the right of others to disagree and have their own separate values.

(I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you; I'm just clarifying what I think the main point is.)
 

Firebird 8118

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Any sort of group/collectivist/tribal/community belief or sentiment can turn exclusionary and scary when taken to the extremes. IOW, the problem isn't just with religions or politics; it's with group dynamics in general.

But the other extreme can be just as bad or worse. For example, when you toss out all group or community experiences and say that everything is relative and arbitrary and meaningless. When everything becomes meaningless, you get caught up in existentialist anxiety. When nothing means anything and everything is relative, then you're stuck in one place forever.

In Jungian terms, the problem amounts to collectivism vs individualism: Either position can be taken to extremes that are poisonous.

As I suggested in my previous post, the real key is to avoid extremes. Enjoy the experience of being part of a group or community or religion and have values of one kind or another; but also respect the right of others to disagree and have their own separate values.

(I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you; I'm just clarifying what I think the main point is.)

Well yeah, I get that - I may be disillusioned, but I wouldn’t recommend anyone to throw out religions entirely. :) I just think they need a little tweaking, it’s been thousands of years since religious texts have seen any major changes (which hinders spiritual evolution and the opportunity for enlightenment).

For example, I still practice Hinduism. I just don’t see it the way I’ve seen most other Hindus do these days. I see it for the spiritual philosophy it started out as from the early sages (minus the fear and discrimination from things such as karmic debt and a caste system that no longer has any place in today’s society); and thus, the rituals I perform with my family have taken on a new meaning.
 

Tennessee Jed

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Well yeah, I get that - I may be disillusioned, but I wouldn’t recommend anyone to throw out religions entirely. :) I just think they need a little tweaking, it’s been thousands of years since religious texts have seen any major changes (which hinders spiritual evolution and the opportunity for enlightenment).

For example, I still practice Hinduism. I just don’t see it the way I’ve seen most other Hindus do these days. I see it for the spiritual philosophy it started out as from the early sages (minus the fear and discrimination from things such as karmic debt and a caste system that no longer has any place in today’s society); and thus, the rituals I perform with my family have taken on a new meaning.

Exactly. You want to keep *some* kind of meaning in your life. And these group/community/religious experiences tend to provide meaning.

So instead of tossing out religions completely, it's more about looking at individual religions (or other types of group/collective experiences) one by one and trying to loosen them up a bit, and get rid of the more poisonous, inbred, exclusionary aspects.
 

Firebird 8118

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Exactly. You want to keep *some* kind of meaning in your life. And these group/community/religious experiences tend to provide meaning.

So instead of tossing out religions completely, it's more about looking at individual religions (or other types of group/collective experiences) one by one and trying to loosen them up a bit, and get rid of the more poisonous, inbred, exclusionary aspects.

That’s exactly it! :D Thanks for putting it so eloquently, I wholeheartedly agree.
 

evilrubberduckie

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I love God and religion.

People always undervalue the power of the mind, and the power the mind holds over us on our beliefs.
 

Mole

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I dislike religion because it is created by psychotic and evil people like our guru, Carl Jung, and followed by those who want to justify their own neurosis and evil.
 

Mole

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The deep problem with religion is that it is implausible.

It is implausible to believe a three headed God, called the Trinity, created four trillion galaxies in our observable universe, and we infer at least as many galaxies in our unobservable universe, and all of this only makes up 4.9 percent of the universe, dark matter and dark energy making up 95.1 percent of the rest.

Why not a four headed God?
 

theablekingedgar

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I pose a few questions for you.

1. When you say you dislike religion or spirituality, do you dislike them all or do you dislike a few?

2. Is your dislike correlated to experiences? You are allowed to share if you so are willing.

3. Do you dislike true belief or do you merely dislike organized religion?

4. Do you distinguish religion and spirituality as two different things? i.e. can someone be religious but not very spiritual or spiritual but not very religious?

5. If you could ban religious belief, would you? Why or why not?

6. Do you think a belief in a higher power is damaging? Why or why not?

8. Do you think people can rationally discuss theological matters?

9. Do you believe that another person's religiousness impacts their of quality of character?

10. Are you yourself religious/spiritual/non-religious/etc? (you're welcome to be as specific as you'd like.)

(I rephrased question #9 from [MENTION=27952]Merced[/MENTION] suggestion. Thank you !)



1 - it's all nonsense

2 - Religion is a tool to control.

3 - I don't mind true belief, but I dislike organised religion

4 - They can be different, but ulimately are intertwined

5 - No. I'm not a tyrant. people can do what the f they wish if it's not hurting others.


6 - It can be, but not always

7 - No, since it's very subjective.

8 - No. There are shitty people of any description/faith.

9 - I used to be, but not any more
 

Mole

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Some religions are worse than others.

For instance, non Christian religions divided the Indian Subcontinent into four different countries. Buddhists of Shri Lanka waged a 25 year war in their own country. Islamic police practise the rape of boys. And Catholics have been murdering the souls of children and covering it up, just as we cover up for Carl Jung.
 

Jaq

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Some religions are worse than others.

For instance, non Christian religions divided the Indian Subcontinent into four different countries. Buddhists of Shri Lanka waged a 25 year war in their own country. Islamic police practise the rape of boys. And Catholics have been murdering the souls of children and covering it up, just as we cover up for Carl Jung.

Okay, this is underestimating the size and scope of the world.
 

fetus

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I pose a few questions for you.

1. When you say you dislike religion or spirituality, do you dislike them all or do you dislike a few?
Not all of them. Not even all from a particular religion, because individuals’ beliefs can vary widely. I dislike certain religious groups and ideas (especially conservative Christianity) while recognizing that there is usually some merit in most religions. For instance, Christianity is supposed to emphasize loving your neighbor. Many don’t practice that but I do agree with that particular idea.

2. Is your dislike correlated to experiences? You are allowed to share if you so are willing.
I grew up conservative Christian (Evangelical - think sort of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, etc). I became sexually active at 18 (I am not married) and I’m also bisexual. If you know anything about conservative Christianity you can pretty much fill in the blanks. There’s some really harmful beliefs that have caused many people a lot of pain.

3. Do you dislike true belief or do you merely dislike organized religion?
I wish people wouldn’t have beliefs that are homophobic, anti-science, discriminatory, etc. but ultimately if you keep it to yourself and keep it out of government then I guess I’d never know. Organized religion leaves a bad taste in my mouth mostly for the reasons I stated above. Also, groupthink is real and organized religion can use that to its advantage.

4. Do you distinguish religion and spirituality as two different things? i.e. can someone be religious but not very spiritual or spiritual but not very religious?
Sure.

5. If you could ban religious belief, would you? Why or why not?
Not gonna feed into the Evangelical persecution complex haha. I don’t think I would. For some people religion can provide personal comfort and I don’t want to take that away from someone. I would ban the discriminatory, harmful ideas within certain religions if I could.

6. Do you think a belief in a higher power is damaging? Why or why not?
Not in and of itself. Life is hard and people gotta get through it somehow. It’s damaging if you give up your ability to think for yourself because then it’s very easy to “justify” harmful behavior. But if you get through the day praying to God and you don’t force it on anyone else, then who am I to tell you that you shouldn’t?

8. Do you think people can rationally discuss theological matters?
Sure. There are some very intelligent theologians and religious people out there. And I think almost anything can be discussed rationally, even if it’s fiction.

9. Do you believe that another person's religiousness impacts their of quality of character?
Nah, I think it just reinforces existing behavior. If you’re truly a good person it’s not religion that’s keeping you from going on a murder spree—you already know that that’s wrong.

10. Are you yourself religious/spiritual/non-religious/etc? (you're welcome to be as specific as you'd like.)

(I rephrased question #9 from [MENTION=27952]Merced[/MENTION] suggestion. Thank you !)

I describe myself as agnostic atheist. I don’t really know what’s out there, and I don’t think I really care. It’s probably foolish to say with 100% certainty that god exists or doesn’t exist. So I just live my life like there isn’t one, because there isn’t really definitive proof pointing to one. There’s more important things in my life. I’m just trying to be a good person in the best way I know how. If there is a god and that’s not enough for them, then that’s not someone whose favor and company I want anyway.

Edit: I fucked up formatting, my replies are in the original thing I quoted lol. I’m too lazy to change it on mobile
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Some religions are worse than others.

For instance, non Christian religions divided the Indian Subcontinent into four different countries. Buddhists of Shri Lanka waged a 25 year war in their own country. Islamic police practise the rape of boys. And Catholics have been murdering the souls of children and covering it up, just as we cover up for Carl Jung.

I love atheists that still think Christianity is superior to other religions even though they don't believe in it. Incredibly awesome to drop the metaphysics but keep a sense of missionary condescension.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I dislike religion because it is created by psychotic and evil people like our guru, Carl Jung, and followed by those who want to justify their own neurosis and evil.

Unless it's Protestantism which civillizes the primitive heathens, amirite? As long as it justifies imperialism, it's all good, I suppose. Rape, murder, and robbery is perfectly fine if it's for the greater good with the right intentions in your heart.

Atheism is pretty worthless as a cultural movement IMO when atheists still justify the same kinds of imperial projects as evangelical Christians. I don't care if the reasoning is more "rational."
 

Mole

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Okay, this is underestimating the size and scope of the world.

Religion is a universal feature of humanity, and the interesting thing about all religions is that they have no idea of our position in a universe of four plus trillion galaxies.

This does not matter to the religions because their core business is entrancement, where our critical minds go to sleep for a while, and our imaginative minds wake up, and we are inclined to believe whatever we are told.
 

Jaq

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Religion is a universal feature of humanity, and the interesting thing about all religions is that they have no idea of our position in a universe of four plus trillion galaxies.

This does not matter to the religions because their core business is entrancement, where our critical minds go to sleep for a while, and our imaginative minds wake up, and we are inclined to believe whatever we are told.

What I was getting at is human pragmatism and belief in itself. If you believe in something, no matter the belief you're more than likely to think you're right. A man from the west does things on a daily basis that would make a person from the east cringe, and the reverse is true. All beliefs, all stances, all morals, everything has a counter and something that would make someone think it is wrong. Human pragmatism comes in as if you put a gun up to a woman's child's head and threaten to pull the trigger, she'll do anything to save her child. No matter how all and pure and pious and strong that you think you are, everything goes out the window when it comes to personal stuff. The average human is selfish when it comes to personal situations (Family, themselves, their safety), as all humans seek to ease the pains of the world and protect what is theirs, even if just for a moment. Humans are the order that contributes to chaos. They are living example of how things are not black and white.
 

Mole

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What I was getting at is human pragmatism and belief in itself. If you believe in something, no matter the belief you're more than likely to think you're right. A man from the west does things on a daily basis that would make a person from the east cringe, and the reverse is true. All beliefs, all stances, all morals, everything has a counter and something that would make someone think it is wrong. Human pragmatism comes in as if you put a gun up to a woman's child's head and threaten to pull the trigger, she'll do anything to save her child. No matter how all and pure and pious and strong that you think you are, everything goes out the window when it comes to personal stuff. The average human is selfish when it comes to personal situations (Family, themselves, their safety), as all humans seek to ease the pains of the world and protect what is theirs, even if just for a moment. Humans are the order that contributes to chaos. They are living example of how things are not black and white.

Fortunately, into the picture you are painting, came the Western Enlightenment of the 17th century.

The Western Enlightenment is not based on religious mysticism, but on reason and evidence. And so we have evidence based medicine, evidence based science, liberal democracy is based on free speech and evidence, even modern economics is based on evidence, and our legal system is based on evidence.

It is true, religion is intuitive, and based on sympathetic magic, while the Western Enlightenment is counter intuitive, and based on evidence and reason.

The move from mysticism to Enlightenment was mediated by universal literacy. And universal literacy teaches us how think counter intuitively as literate individuals. So no wonder we say God is dead.
 
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