[SP] Dating and having intimate relationships as an attractive ISTP (or ESTP) woman?

[Luminous]

Not to attack you because its the last thing I would want to do to a new member- but I see this a lot from new members. (And Im not sure you are doing this- I just want to throw it out there)

They come on here feeling misunderstood for some reason or another. Rejected by society and disconnected. They find typology- which reads as an answer to why they have been feeling the way they are feeling. They take that type and wrap it up so snugly around themselves as to never have to be personally accountable for their deficits. They now KNOW the reason for all the problems in their life- their TYPE is the reason they are misunderstood. Its the reason why they are special and no one can truly GET them.

I just want to warn you about this- take it as you will. Because while on some level its probably healthy- for it can be something you take and run with to understand “why’s and it can be something that people use to develop their strenghts further, and recognize and work on their “prescribed weaknesses. Sometimes people base their entire egos on it, subconsciously, and then get stuck for a long time in a place where they are never challenged.

Its fine to be intellectual and want to have challenging conversations. It is fine to want to be seen like that- because its what you feel comes naturally to you. But if you come on too strongly, and if it seems like it is too forced, you might put people off. Maybe thats also unfair- considering your primary function is Ti. You are looking for systems, according to typology, and depth.

But sometimes you have to start by trying to get people to WANT to talk to you. You say people dismiss you as a bimbo, well thats also really unfair and I am sorry about that. Do you get harassed often by men? Because if you do- thats completely not your fault and its gross. But you also talk about platonic relationships. Non sexual ones. And that makes me wonder if there is some other reason why you arent getting the level of connection that you want- besides your appearance. To some extent I think we cant really help how we intially come across to others- I naturally come across as pretty quiet and serious when... there is more to me than that. But that is what I have to work with- so Im going to do my best with it by looking at what, like I said, I CAN change.

Im kinda getting a little off track and repetitive here. But I guess I want to tell you that I hear what you are saying. A lot of people feel similarly- like they arent getting what they want in life for some reason or another- and the best “advice” I can give you is to not define yourself by your limitations. If you come across as a bimbo- what can you do to work on that (even if again- its someone elses perception and it seems unfair that they would have it) to get what you want.

Maybe its a small thing, I cant tell you exactly what because I dont know you IRL, but maybe there is one small thing you can do to bridge the gap you want to bridge. And this doesnt mean sacrificing who you are, not at all, but seeing what you CAN be. You can still be the interesting person who happens to type as ISTP that you want to be- just, like you dont put others in boxes, try not to put yourself in one.

You seem bright and I hope that you stay on the site.

Sorry for the repetitive wall of text by the way. Feel free to respond or not respond. And if I come across as patronizing or superior in any way- Im sorry. Im not all knowing. Im just making best guesses from experiences Ive both had and connections that Ive made.

I agree with what Frosty wrote. There are things you've said in this thread that are putting yourself and others into boxes, and there is a risk of that being more unhelpful than helpful.

For instance

ESTP women probably have an easier time with dating overall because of how extroverted they are for the most part. But there's still this emotional detachment that is more or less present in all female thinker types have which throws many men off since we're supposed to be the "sensitive, sweet, emotional and feminine" ones in the relationship. So i was wondering what fellow xSTP women think about this? People that have a good understanding of Jungian typology and/or know xSTP women, especially ISTPs can of course feel free to add to the conversation.

Stereotype. Being a thinker does not mean that one is emotionally detached. The same way that being a feeler does not mean one lacks thought and reason.

From one perspective, i like living in the moment and in the sensory world and i am slightly thrill-seeking too so i can be really seductive and fun around people that i really like and know well. But on the other hand my Fe is inferior and i hate social interaction and getting to know people overall. So most people never get to meet the more fun, carefree side of me. And at least ESTP's Fe is their 3rd function so i suppose they have a slightly easier time connecting to people and being emotionally vulnerable, which would make it easier for their wild and sexy Se-ish nature to be brought out so they have the advantage of being capable to potentially be really sexual.

Stereotype. Se does not equal sexuality. Plenty of people with very low Se are very sexual.

Oh, i get what you're saying now.
Well, just like you said - despite being very relaxed for the most part, we can easily switch up to being more physical/lively when we want to. So being able to be both aloof and in tune with our physical environment (as opposed to for ex. the emotionally detached and aloof yet somewhat frigid INTJs) might be seen as alluring/mysterious to people?
I think that my resting bitch face scares many people off and most only stare at me instead of approaching me. But sure, I've been randomly/anxiously approached by many people out of nowhere, so there might be some truth to this. I've honestly never thought about this up until now.

There are many INTJs who are not at all "frigid".

The only people that are truly familiar with the more "fun and wild" side of me are the only female girl friend that i have (i tend to trigger jealousy in and intimidate most women, my friend's an ENTP) and a good ENFP male friend of mine who lives in a different country. It took me my whole life to essentially find 2 people that i can actually call friends although i wouldn't say that I'm awfully close to them either. We usually call/text only about once a week, sometimes once every two weeks. So how could i possibly open up enough to have an intimate and/or romantic relationship with someone? I don't want to dramatize but it seems incredibly far-fetched, almost completely impossible.

I think learning how to interact better or find those who prefer your style of social interaction is necessary. Perhaps joining a club that revolves around some hobby you enjoy? This is another place where just putting yourself in more social situations might help, especially if they involve something you're already interested in.

I know that i'm still young and that i have my whole life ahead of me but my personality won't really change overnight, even if i end up becoming more quote-in-qupte mature and slightly more social as i grow older. I don't mean to brag/put myself on a pedestal but objectively speaking, i'm really good looking. My eyes are blue, my hair is jet black. I have a tiny nose, big lips and almond eyes. I essentially look like a stereotypical IG model/bimbo which probably gives me an advantage over other ISTP women because it kind of compensates for my abnormal emotional detachment and my aloofness.

Do you truly not see how going into great detail about how great you look is off putting? If you really want better relationships, acting this way is not a good way to go about that. Would you be interested in getting to know a guy who bragged in great detail about his abs? As though they were extremely important?

But even though men are physically attracted to me, they have no idea how to interact with me.

Are you assuming they interact differently with other women? Because the men you're describing probably don't.

I suppose that only very masculine men and brave men would be able to be in a relationship with me. On one hand i am somewhat masculine in my thinking and behavior so most people would instinctually suggest that more sensitive and slightly less masculine feeler men would suit me more so that we could balance each other out. But that would be the case only if i felt the need to take the more masculine, agressive role in relationships. I might not be ultra girly, emotional and submissive but I've never felt the need to dominate men either. Having a guy walk around me like a puppy and ordering him around isn't appealing to me. I know that everyone's different and i don't look down upon women that fit this category but it's simply not my thing.

I wonder if there is a significant cultural difference between wherever you are from and the US.

I probably need to be with someone that can stimulate me intellectually (which is a hard task to begin with) and someone that's masculine enough so that their manliness won't be threatened by my presence, mind and behavior. And these types of super masculine men usually seek ultra-feminine women. So they'd need to be also looking for a smart and intellectually stimulating partner specifically. It'd be relatively hard to find a man with these three traits alone. What about physical appearance and social status?

This is part of the reason I said your attitude was off-putting. Though you didn't mean it this way, this sounds like you think that ultra-feminine women aren't smart and intellectually stimulating.

LOL i specifically mentioned attractive because women that look a certain way tend to be boxed into a stupid category (bimbo/vain bitch and etc.) by society which obviously doesn't sit well with ISTP/ESTP and overall thinker type women because people's idea of who we might be personality-wise has nothing to do with reality/what we're actually like which makes dating automatically even harder for us since we tend to attract people that assume we're going to be stupid and/or overly feminine and not people that would actually match us.

Do you know see how this comes off as a humblebrag?

I am absolutely not saying that F types aren't smart. That'd be just as idiotic as people saying that intuitives are always more intelligent than sensors. I don't even know what this thread has to do with intelligence per se to begin with. And of course that everyone has personal issues. Just saying that women and overall people with a feeling function high up in their function stack (a.k.a. feelers) tend to have an easier time being emotionally vulnerable, especially if they're Fe-doms or auxiliaries. And i made this thread about ISTP/ESTP women specifically because we're one of the least stereotypically "feminine" types out there and there's always been a social expectation for women to be more caring and/or emotional compared to men which doesn't usually fit the description of who we are personality-wise, at least not for the most part. Ergo, in many cases we have even more hardships when it comes to dating/socializing compared to the average woman (75% of women are feelers) since we are often perceived as "different" in a bad way by society. And this forum was created so that people can talk about typology and discuss the differences/similarities between the different types as well as the common hardships of the different types. I don't know who has perceived you as unintelligent because you're an F-dom of some sort but this isn't what I'm doing so you can feel free to stop projecting. Also, did i ever say anything that could be possibly paraphrased as something between the lines of "wars have been fought over my looks"? I don't think so. I apologize for not being faux-humble enough for your taste. I've always had a preference for being blunt, honest and saying it like it is. And I'm simply sharing my personal experiences. It's not meant to be an attack on you or anyone else. Aside from the obvious passive-agressiveness, I'm not sure about what you could possibly contribute to this thread.

The bolded are stereotypes and generalizations that aren't helpful to you or anyone else. Being comfortable with emotionally vulnerable with others likely has far more to do with enneagram than it does with a preference for thinking or feeling. And the constant comparison you're making is why your attitude is off putting (the "even more hardships".) What's it matter if the hardships are more? Seriously, if you speak this way with others, it's probably a big part of the reason why you've been seen the way you've been seen in the past. And I can understand the tendency to want to say it that way, because I would have likely said it that way earlier in my life. But that comparison just gets in the way of forming good relationships with true emotional compassion and caring.

I am being off-putting right now because you're the one that came to this thread and accused me of assuming that you're unintelligent (which isn't the case) and tried to shame me about writing about my personal experiences in a manner that wasn't "humble"/self-deprecating enough in your opinion. You can feel free to get off your high horse and stop expecting people to be nice to you when you're not even being respectful to begin with. Just like i already said, this is passive-aggressiveness and not quote-in-quote feedback as far as i'm personally concerned.

I didn't mean to accuse you of attacking me personally, or anyone else personally, at all. And I am not trying to shame you. I find arrogance unattractive and it's possible that men you'd be interested in also do. That's not to say you should be self deprecating at all. Being confident is good!

And the "not like other girls" complex is confusing to me. I've met these exact "i'm better than all of you, b#tches!" women in real life. They're also often the type of women that put down other women in front of potential boyfriends and et cetera and i've always found them to be incredibly irritating and pathetic. To me, that's the definition of this phenomenon. But you know damn well as an INTP and a TI-dom that most of us Ti-dom or thinker women are indeed in many ways "not like other girls". Not because we're better than other women, it's just that we're somewhat different as far as our demeanor, behavioral preferences and/or interests are concerned. This doesn't make us better/worse than other women. It is what it is, somewhat of an "abnormality" among women. I've never considered myself to be superior to other more traditionally feminine/girly women so i don't necessarily agree with this. If anything, many stereotypically feminine girls have been the ones that habe bullied me/that i've been singled out by growing up because i didn't really fit in as much among girls. My female ENTP friend can be really blunt and slightly masculine in her thinking but she's a thousand times more feminine than i am. We do get along perfectly however simply because she's always been respectful and understanding. And many traditionally "feminine" girls are usually the ones to judge ME and think they're better than me because of my "different" behavior, not vice versa.

Gently, if you do talk this way around other women, you're very likely giving off the impression that you think you are better than them. The comparisons of how it's harder for you because you are better looking, more intelligent, not like all the other girls, etc. I don't think there's any one way a woman or man should be. And I totally understand that you are angry at the fact that you have so much pressure on you to be a different way than you are. But you can be a rational, less emotional, interesting, attractive intelligent woman without your confidence in those things coming out in a way that appears disrespectful to others who differ from you. Maybe try to see where the similarities are between you and them? And try to connect over those? And the same for with men. Try to find men who share the same interests as you; I think you'd have much better luck that way, as at least if the activity relates to who you are at your core of being a smart, less emotional, active person, they will already have been exposed to that part of you, and hopefully won't expect something else.

 

[Mind Maverick]

LOL i specifically mentioned attractive because women that look a certain way tend to be boxed into a stupid category (bimbo/vain bitch and etc.) by society which obviously doesn't sit well with ISTP/ESTP and overall thinker type women

So it sits well with Feelers?

because people's idea of who we might be personality-wise has nothing to do with reality/what we're actually like which makes dating automatically even harder for us since we tend to attract people that assume we're going to be stupid and/or overly feminine and not people that would actually match us.

So no ISTPs like to be feminine? Doesn't this also imply that if only T women won't be "overly feminine," there are automatically no tomboyish/androgynous/etc. Feelers? Otherwise, if you didn't mean all/none, what's the point in even categorizing the distinctions under T/F anyways (if there are some highly feminine Ts and some Fs who aren't feminine or that don't fit the female stereotypes)? Wouldn't it make more sense to just say "women who don't fit into society's stereotypes" or something?



Is what you've said really what you wanted to convey?

 

[Hermit of the Forest]

Hey [MENTION=41027]JenniferCheck[/MENTION]. I can understand what your saying here, and don’t find your perspective to be off putting in the least. It’s not arrogant to have a logically considered view on the correlation between one’s own appearance/presentation and the reactions/expectations it evokes in others. I’ve considered the subject many times in my life.

I suppose my advice would be when you next find someone you like, to try to guide them past involuntary preconceived notions and towards the genuine, living, breathing reality of your fabulous self. It will take some patience, but if a long term understanding is what you seek then the time and bridge building will be very worth it and fulfilling in the long run.

 

[JenniferCheck]

Not to attack you because its the last thing I would want to do to a new member- but I see this a lot from new members. (And Im not sure you are doing this- I just want to throw it out there)

They come on here feeling misunderstood for some reason or another. Rejected by society and disconnected. They find typology- which reads as an answer to why they have been feeling the way they are feeling. They take that type and wrap it up so snugly around themselves as to never have to be personally accountable for their deficits. They now KNOW the reason for all the problems in their life- their TYPE is the reason they are misunderstood. Its the reason why they are special and no one can truly GET them.

I just want to warn you about this- take it as you will. Because while on some level its probably healthy- for it can be something you take and run with to understand “why’s and it can be something that people use to develop their strenghts further, and recognize and work on their “prescribed weaknesses. Sometimes people base their entire egos on it, subconsciously, and then get stuck for a long time in a place where they are never challenged.

Its fine to be intellectual and want to have challenging conversations. It is fine to want to be seen like that- because its what you feel comes naturally to you. But if you come on too strongly, and if it seems like it is too forced, you might put people off. Maybe thats also unfair- considering your primary function is Ti. You are looking for systems, according to typology, and depth.

But sometimes you have to start by trying to get people to WANT to talk to you. You say people dismiss you as a bimbo, well thats also really unfair and I am sorry about that. Do you get harassed often by men? Because if you do- thats completely not your fault and its gross. But you also talk about platonic relationships. Non sexual ones. And that makes me wonder if there is some other reason why you arent getting the level of connection that you want- besides your appearance. To some extent I think we cant really help how we intially come across to others- I naturally come across as pretty quiet and serious when... there is more to me than that. But that is what I have to work with- so Im going to do my best with it by looking at what, like I said, I CAN change.

Im kinda getting a little off track and repetitive here. But I guess I want to tell you that I hear what you are saying. A lot of people feel similarly- like they arent getting what they want in life for some reason or another- and the best “advice” I can give you is to not define yourself by your limitations. If you come across as a bimbo- what can you do to work on that (even if again- its someone elses perception and it seems unfair that they would have it) to get what you want.

Maybe its a small thing, I cant tell you exactly what because I dont know you IRL, but maybe there is one small thing you can do to bridge the gap you want to bridge. And this doesnt mean sacrificing who you are, not at all, but seeing what you CAN be. You can still be the interesting person who happens to type as ISTP that you want to be- just, like you dont put others in boxes, try not to put yourself in one.

You seem bright and I hope that you stay on the site.

Sorry for the repetitive wall of text by the way. Feel free to respond or not respond. And if I come across as patronizing or superior in any way- Im sorry. Im not all knowing. Im just making best guesses from experiences Ive both had and connections that Ive made.

I completely understand where you're coming from, you don't come across as patronizing. I am aware of the fact that many people in the MBTI community tend to do this. It reminds me of astrology, people saying "oh, this is who i am because i'm such a *insert sun sign here*!" and using it as an excuse and et cetera. It's not what i'm trying to do. I am just trying to understand my personality (including my weaknesses) better and simply wanted to ask other women that are my type whether they've had similar experiences with dating but thank you for your concern.

And yes, i was sexually harassed a lot growing up.

 

[JenniferCheck]

So it sits well with Feelers?


So no ISTPs like to be feminine? Doesn't this also imply that if only T women won't be "overly feminine," there are automatically no tomboyish/androgynous/etc. Feelers? Otherwise, if you didn't mean all/none, what's the point in even categorizing the distinctions under T/F anyways (if there are some highly feminine Ts and some Fs who aren't feminine or that don't fit the female stereotypes)? Wouldn't it make more sense to just say "women who don't fit into society's stereotypes" or something?



Is what you've said really what you wanted to convey?

OH, God. I have never tried to make it seem like feeler women are okay with being perceived as bimbos. But i also added "feminine" as an adjective, which is what female F types often are. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Any woman that looks a certain way will unfortunately be put in a box by society and portrayed as dumb and so on to an extent. The difference being that F women usually have an easier time being open and vulnerable with people, as well as with socializing. And even if people meet them and have preconceived notions about their character at first, they are often much more socially charismatic than ST/NT women (and especially Fe inferior women) and they have an easier time "proving people wrong" about who they are, so to speak. Whereas if people expect me to be a mean girl bimbo based on my physical appearance, most people will keep believing that this is who i am even after a little bit of social contact has been established because of how ridiculously aloof, distant and untalkative i can be at first. If anything, it'll further reinforce the idea that i am indeed a stupid bitch in their heads. And my demeanor specifically can be often seen in thinker women.

It would make more sense to say women who don't fit society's standards if this was a regular forum. Just like i said a million times already, this forum has been created for a purpose. Types can talk about the struggles they've faced due to their specific behavioral preferences (that are often caused by the top 4 cognitive functions they use and the order in which they're used) and et cetera. I am an ISTP woman and i wanted to ask how ISTP/ESTP women feel about this especially because we're not usually very active within the online MBTI community and we're harder to come across. I never said that feminine thinker women don't exist (i already mentioned that my best female thinker ENTP friend is much more feminine than i am) and that there aren't feeler women that are more "masculine". But usually thinkers have more masculine behavior and vice versa because they mostly have thinking functions high up their function stack. And having a feeling function high up your function stack almost always gives you a slightly softer "edge", so to speak. It's why feeler men are often less stereotypically masculine than thinker men, just like thinker women are often more stereotypically masculine than feeler women.

There are always going to be exceptions to the rule but that's the whole point, they're exceptions. And i was talking about thinker women IN GENERAL since they tend to be less "sweet" and in most cases have a harder time acting like what society is telling them women should be like. People are coming to this thread and accusing me of thinking lowly of F women for unexplainable reasons. Please, if there's nothing that you can contribute to this conversation aside from trying to put words into my mouth then you can feel free to exit the thread.

 

[JenniferCheck]

Hey [MENTION=41027]JenniferCheck[/MENTION]. I can understand what your saying here, and don’t find your perspective to be off putting in the least. It’s not arrogant to have a logically considered view on the correlation between one’s own appearance/presentation and the reactions/expectations it evokes in others. I’ve considered the subject many times in my life.

I suppose my advice would be when you next find someone you like, to try to guide them past involuntary preconceived notions and towards the genuine, living, breathing reality of your fabulous self. It will take some patience, but if a long term understanding is what you seek then the time and bridge building will be very worth it and fulfilling in the long run.

Thank you for the advice and for being understanding, unlike many of the users that i somehow managed to trigger.

 

[JenniferCheck]

I agree with what Frosty wrote. There are things you've said in this thread that are putting yourself and others into boxes, and there is a risk of that being more unhelpful than helpful.

For instance

Stereotype. Being a thinker does not mean that one is emotionally detached. The same way that being a feeler does not mean one lacks thought and reason.



Stereotype. Se does not equal sexuality. Plenty of people with very low Se are very sexual.



There are many INTJs who are not at all "frigid".

I think learning how to interact better or find those who prefer your style of social interaction is necessary. Perhaps joining a club that revolves around some hobby you enjoy? This is another place where just putting yourself in more social situations might help, especially if they involve something you're already interested in.



Do you truly not see how going into great detail about how great you look is off putting? If you really want better relationships, acting this way is not a good way to go about that. Would you be interested in getting to know a guy who bragged in great detail about his abs? As though they were extremely important?



Are you assuming they interact differently with other women? Because the men you're describing probably don't.



I wonder if there is a significant cultural difference between wherever you are from and the US.



This is part of the reason I said your attitude was off-putting. Though you didn't mean it this way, this sounds like you think that ultra-feminine women aren't smart and intellectually stimulating.



Do you know see how this comes off as a humblebrag?



The bolded are stereotypes and generalizations that aren't helpful to you or anyone else. Being comfortable with emotionally vulnerable with others likely has far more to do with enneagram than it does with a preference for thinking or feeling. And the constant comparison you're making is why your attitude is off putting (the "even more hardships".) What's it matter if the hardships are more? Seriously, if you speak this way with others, it's probably a big part of the reason why you've been seen the way you've been seen in the past. And I can understand the tendency to want to say it that way, because I would have likely said it that way earlier in my life. But that comparison just gets in the way of forming good relationships with true emotional compassion and caring.



I didn't mean to accuse you of attacking me personally, or anyone else personally, at all. And I am not trying to shame you. I find arrogance unattractive and it's possible that men you'd be interested in also do. That's not to say you should be self deprecating at all. Being confident is good!



Gently, if you do talk this way around other women, you're very likely giving off the impression that you think you are better than them. The comparisons of how it's harder for you because you are better looking, more intelligent, not like all the other girls, etc. I don't think there's any one way a woman or man should be. And I totally understand that you are angry at the fact that you have so much pressure on you to be a different way than you are. But you can be a rational, less emotional, interesting, attractive intelligent woman without your confidence in those things coming out in a way that appears disrespectful to others who differ from you. Maybe try to see where the similarities are between you and them? And try to connect over those? And the same for with men. Try to find men who share the same interests as you; I think you'd have much better luck that way, as at least if the activity relates to who you are at your core of being a smart, less emotional, active person, they will already have been exposed to that part of you, and hopefully won't expect something else.

I know that not all thinkers are emotionally detached. But i happen to be one so i fit the stereotype well in this scenario. Doesn't mean that i'm trying to enforce stereotypes on thinkers that don't fit this description and so on.

I am absolutely aware of the fact that many low Se people are very sexual. I am just saying that having a sensing function high up your function stack makes it even easier for you to be sexual/have the ability to indulge in the sensory world (that includes sex). It's why ESTP women are often described as overly sensual even though i'm sure that there are some ESTP women that don't fit the stereotype.

By frigid i specifically mean not really comfortable in the physical world/aware of their surroundings which is true for most of them. I've talked to many INTJs online and this is what they usually complain about as far as what they like about their personality type the least (their inferior sensing function). I could've probably used a better word to describe this but once again, i'm not a native English speaker. But then again, frigid doesn't only mean not sexual, it also means stiff or formal in behavior or style and just like i said, this is often the case as far as most INTJs are concerned. Especially younger ones that haven't really developed their tertiary and inferior function compared to their older counterparts.

Going into detail about how i look would be off-putting if i were to walk up to somebody and real life and do that. I am talking about my physical appearance and its description only because this is a forum and you guys can't really see what i am/what i look like. And just like another poster said, "It’s not arrogant to have a logically considered view on the correlation between one’s own appearance/presentation and the reactions/expectations it evokes in others."

I don't assume that they're interacting with other women differently. But that's the whole point that i'm trying to make. When approaching me they assume that i act like most of the other women they've met that look similar to me sex appeal-wise and try to interact with me the same way that they do with them. And these women are often either slightly bimbo-ish (i assume since many of these men have told me they "didn't know i was that smart") or very stereotypically feminine. And they expect me to behave just like them, which isn't the case. Ergo, there's often a personality clash.

And no, there isn't a significant cultural difference as far as dating is concerned.

I am not saying that ultra-feminine women can't be smart or intellectually stimulating. But men that are looking for super feminine women usually are seeking to be in a relationship with them mainly because they're often very submissive. These types of men often don't want to date someone assertive that threatens their masculinity. And they also often feel threatened by women that are intelligent.

And no, i really can't see how this comes across as a humblebrag. I'm just stating a fact. I don't know why one would possibly brag about the fact that they don't happen to fit what society deems as "attractive" as far as behavior is concerned. People have talked about the hardships of ISTP women when it comes to dating in other threads too but in less detail, you can check it out for yourself. I know that for some ISTP women that's not really the case but it often is. And i explained why a thousand times already. I really don't feel the need to paraphrase myself again.

All you've done in this thread is misinterpret me and put words into my mouth. I really don't know why you keep insisting on derailing the conversation.

 

[Luminous]

All you've done in this thread is misinterpret me and put words into my mouth. I really don't know why you keep insisting on derailing the conversation.

Actually I tried to give you useful advice, but since that's not what you want, good luck!

 

[SirCanSir]

I agree that T women are stereo-typically more contained which can make them come across as masculine (sometimes) but no matter what you wanted to point out your post comes across as trying to be cool within the personality system (which isnt really cool) and thus those are the responses you get.

I ve seen plenty of T women who can turn those differences into a strength socially and charm others (say being contained and less open to vulnerability usually results in forming other strengths to fit in socially like humor for example). Still the way i see it you are mostly complaining about your appearance contradicting your vibes since all this issue about others misjudging you or having expectations you cant meet are all what shallow connections and interactions give you. Like others said above, be yourself and that wall will instantly crumble, people will know what to expect and you wont have this problem anymore.

If validation isnt what you are looking for then congrats, you got a set of personality traits that may differ from the most shallow of shallow social expectations. Also if we generalize in the same manner , men first and foremost care about appearance to give you the ok so you shouldnt have any problems whatever your personality is like atleast initially correct? Because they still are going to approach you if you are attractive. While they do that you have enough time to figure a way to open up to them and charm them with your different set of skills as a T woman.

You do realize this comes off as a horrible special snowflake case built on a barely credible enough personality system dont you? There are way more troublesome traits to have than being an attractive T female in 2020. This is why your post gets so much opposition.

 

[The Cat]

Enough.

 

[Mind Maverick]

Deleted my original post due to mod post above (which was below my post)

 

[Abcdenfp]

Enough.

Feel like simba from the lion Kings dad just showed Up !

 

[J. Starke]

From my experience half of ESTP women are crazy, especially if they have too many male friends.

 

[Cupcakemonster]

People that don't know me well seem to expect me to be very innocent, quiet, passive/a push over, & overly nice. My personality couldn't be further from that! Lmfao but I look really young for my age. I'm 25 but been told I look 15-19. I've been emotionally distant with the only few people that have tried to date me. I try to come on to guys I find interesting sometimes, but that seems to scare them away so I've stopped initiating conversation in that way. Every once in awhile I just fall into a fwbs relationship with a guy friend that I'm already friends with & find attractive. I've never been in a relationship. It seems most people opt for online dating now, which I'm not interested in trying at all.

Sorry I can't offer better advice, but for what it's worth I understand what you were saying. I think other people are just also trying to say don't use mbti as a way to be down on yourself & have a negative self fulfilling prophecy.

I definitely think most people read others wrong all the time. Also, contrary to what a lot of people often say, no nerdy or less attractive or whatever else guys aren't any "nicer" or "less judgmental" than good looking jock guys.

My roommate from college always suggests to me that I get involved in things I'm interested in. That way you know that other people there are also interested in the same thing. So whether it's sports, comics, cooking, art, animals, charity work, etc. at least you know you already have something in common with someone you'd meet there. Could also help you & them as not just seeing each other as a one dimensional stereotype.

 

[highlander]

Your attitude is off-putting, which might be good feedback for you, since you have issues relating to other people. If you're not interested in that feedback, I will gladly exit the thread.

It might be to you but for the record, I dont see her comments as off-putting.at all. I think she is just being direct and honest. Also, I would like to ask you and any others seeing this to be a bit more welcoming to new members.

 

[Totenkindly]

I didn't really find anything off-putting either, but I'm Ti-primary, so... a lot of it scans as just analysis to me and saying things matter-of-fact. Note that even the occasional pushback statements that might sound pointed to the recipients are typically provided after providing longer blocks of analysis. So it still seems very measured to me.

I would like to comment but am still processing, there's a lot to digest. I mean, i'm older and still find I deal with some of the basic things the OP is talking about, I don't think they are resolved easily... although I think as people age (both men and women), the situation might ease up a bit. People become more easy-going, maybe their biological imperatives (having children, intense romances, or whatever else is driving a lot of attraction for people) are satiated, and I think the average person "eases up" a bit and is more open to accepting what is in front of them. It becomes more about "Does someone seem like a genuinely decent person, even if they are different than me?" and "How do I feel when I am with them?" and so on. I know I find myself moving from a list-based approach of criteria to evaluate people I want to spend time with to more of the broader sense of "look and feel" -- I simply want to be with people I like and genuinely enjoy interacting with.

 

[Cupcakemonster]

OP - I didn't find any of your comments off putting at all either, for the record.

I'm sure people just meant to not let mbti be used as a crutch for life problems, but I don't see why that means that people can't voice their frustrations here and/or seek advice or analyze whether certain problems could be more related to type (not caused by type but just more type related).

Of course everyone deals with different problems regarding relationships. I don't see why people would take this as you saying Feeling type women have it easy. It's just your specific problem is what you think could be more type related.

It's hard to control other people perceptions of you. I can fall into a trap of being overly concerned of others images & opinions of me. It bugs me too that I feel my looks don't match my personality. I didn't see what you said as bragging. Just that your image of yourself doesn't align with most people's image of you open first meeting you or seeing you from afar.

You can't control other people though unfortunately. You can control your actions. Maybe try to cultivate a plan different from what your doing at the moment, & see if something pans out? & Be open, honest, & direct with people when you get to know them. Don't be too closed off about yourself or try to change your self to be more like the image you think they falsely have of you. Lay out who you really are. Suggest activities that you like to do to them. That's what I would suggest.

 

[highlander]

@JenniferCheck as an INTJ that was fairly shy I do understand the feeling of being the odd duck out in my teens and through my entire 20s actually (btw, I have two computer science degrees). When I first got into a significant leadership position at work, I had some growing pains and got an executive coach. Part of the process was to get 360 degree feedback. The coach told me that one persons feedback stood out - my ENFP executive assistant. She said I needed to let other people know me in the way she did. It stuck with me. I think part of this is being comfortable in your own skin and accepting - being proud of who you are and how you are different. What I found is as I became more accepting of myself and more relaxed around other people, it was like a whole new world opened up to me where I enjoyed interacting with people every day. I wasn't so hung up about being different or worrying about looking stupid. The shyness mostly abated. I just became more comfortable being who I was and relaxed more around other people so they could understand who I was.

I think you should let more people know you and really see you like the two friends you mention.

 

[Cupcakemonster]

From my experience half of ESTP women are crazy, especially if they have too many male friends.

You caught me! Lol but seriously "crazy" in what way? I'm curious.

 

[JenniferCheck]

Deleted my original post due to mod post above (which was below my post)

Ill just say

Im also an "attractive ISTP female" but dont have this problem

Good luck

Congratulations.