Trump vs. Bernie

[ceecee]

Better to have a guy who used to lavish praise on communism and went on his honeymoon to Russia?
Bernie Sanders’ relationship with socialism and communism - Baltimore Sun

It's odd to hear people talk like even stepping foot in Russia is a bad thing. I've been to Russia. Once to St. Petersburg and once to Ivangorod. Perhaps I should reconsider running for county commissioner.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Yes. Everything I have have read or heard about it is that it doesnt work 4 European countries still have a wealth tax. Here'''s how it'''s going. - Business Insider.. So why would someone advocate for something that wont work? Either they are stupid or they are telling peole what they want to hear. Which one is it? I have a pretty good guess.

The thing to focus on - to figure out whether a plan is truly different - is the specifics in plan, not the umbrella plan of "tax the wealth". There's wisdom in the "fall down 8 times, get up 9" expression. It's not entirely denial/stupidity to cling to plan that didn't work previously, although maybe naivete in hoping this new person making the same old promise has a better plan.

Trickle-down is the first thing I thought of too though, when reading the above comments - and how the promise of it keeps working over and over again because it's what people want so badly to hear, in spite of the fact that it consistently hasn't for as long as it's been tried. But (I can't believe I'm saying this) there might even be some wisdom to be found in 'trickle-down' if there were enough regulations in place to make sure the lion's share of new wealth got directed back into workers (and that general direction) more than towards investors. The problem that needs to be addressed is that when taxes are cut, wealth consistently trickles upwards - it's not the tax cuts that are the problem, it's the hoarding of wealth (and using that hoarded wealth to squeeze more labor out of workers to keep hoarding more wealth, ad infinitum until the government intervenes or revolution or something) along the top that's the problem. If there were some effective way to force the wealth to trickle back down, then tax cuts could work for everyone. (But since that would interfere with the hoarding of wealth, it would likely be as ill received as raising taxes).

Anyway, same could be said of "wealth tax."

 

[Stigmata]

Better to have a guy who used to lavish praise on communism and went on his honeymoon to Russia?
Bernie Sanders’ relationship with socialism and communism - Baltimore Sun

I'm not quite sure if honeymooning in Russia is worse than heaping praise on Vladimir Putin, someone who actively seeks to undermine our democracy and has all but flat out admitted to meddling in our elections, while also blocking bills that would help prevent said meddling. Just sayin'

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I'm not quite sure if honeymooning in Russia is worse than heaping praise on Vladimir Putin, someone who actively seeks to undermine our democracy and has all but flat out admitted to meddling in our elections, while also blocking bills that would help prevent said meddling. Just sayin'

Word.

And trusting Putin's word ("He said he didn't do it.") over that of our own intelligence agencies.

 

[ceecee]

I'm not quite sure if honeymooning in Russia is worse than heaping praise on Vladimir Putin, someone who actively seeks to undermine our democracy and has all but flat out admitted to meddling in our elections, while also blocking bills that would help prevent said meddling. Just sayin'

Right. But look at the other issues many people are unable to rationally grasp. That said, I've not heard Bernie doing any of the above currently or any of the above in the past. Until I do, I'm voting for him.

 

[Jaguar]

Bernie Sanders’ relationship with socialism and communism - Baltimore Sun

"He has an impressive record of seeing only what he wants to see rather than what is — at home and abroad. And it doesn’t seem like a cheap shot to me to point out that Mr. Sanders got the reality of communism wrong in the past and the rest of the world wrong in the present."

No argument from me. That summed up the article quite well.

 

[highlander]

You really are though. Or at least, you desire politicans who will continue it.

Trickle down assumes the wealthy and their corporations and orginzations will have societies best interests in mind. Nearly all don't. As such, it can't work. Human nature for the next century at least won't allow it.

With government spending, at least you can attempt to impart control and regulations to work against human nature. You have better odds of success because of that alone.

I'm not advocating it. How about increasing the capital gains tax to that of normal income? It might be a lot more effective than a wealth tax and might generate a lot more revenue.

How much money do you think the government wastes? How much inefficiency do you think there is? Ever work with a government agency?

 

[highlander]

The problem that needs to be addressed is that when taxes are cut, wealth consistently trickles upwards - it's not the tax cuts that are the problem, it's the hoarding of wealth (and using that hoarded wealth to squeeze more labor out of workers to keep hoarding more wealth, ad infinitum until the government intervenes or revolution or something) along the top that's the problem.

If you cut taxes and keep spending more, it just adds to the country's debt and doesn't improve the overall economic climate except in the short term. Politicians don't know how to stop spending money. In my state, there was a Republican governor who actually tried. He failed (blocked by the Democratic machine) and was voted out of office. The state is in the worst position it's ever been in because the politicians refuse to confront the real issues and stop spending.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

If you cut taxes and keep spending more, it just adds to the country's debt and doesn't improve the overall economic climate except in the short term. Politicians don't know how to stop spending money. In my state, there was a Republican governor who actually tried. He failed (blocked by the Democratic machine) and was voted out of office. The state is in the worst position it's ever been in because the politicians refuse to confront the real issues and stop spending.

Bruce Rauner sucks. What we need is a progressive income tax, as opposed to a flat income tax. I'm working heavily on getting the Fair Tax referendum passed. When you add up all the taxes like income, sales, and property, rich people actually are taxed at a smaller percentage than everyone else. That doesn't seem terribly fiscally responsible if you ask me.

I trust you didn't vote for Dubya for a second term because of the tax cuts he gave in his first term while increasing government spending, so perhaps I shouldn't be so hasty in my judgements.

I'm not sure Rauner would have supported marijuana legalization, either, which will bring in more revenue. I didn't vote for Pritzker in the primary, but I'm happy with him at the moment.

 

[ceecee]

If you cut taxes and keep spending more, it just adds to the country's debt and doesn't improve the overall economic climate except in the short term. Politicians don't know how to stop spending money. In my state, there was a Republican governor who actually tried. He failed (blocked by the Democratic machine) and was voted out of office. The state is in the worst position it's ever been in because the politicians refuse to confront the real issues and stop spending.

Have you been watching how much the Republicans give a shit about the debt? They don't, they never did. I agree with you on govt. waste though.

What I almost never hear is - the military budget is almost $1T per year. Most of this is to feed the military industrial complex and there is virtually no difference between Dems and Republicans when it comes to feeding that machine and they will play on the fears and phobia of a country gone off the rails since 9/11 and tell you it's about national security. And then you complain about national debt. Do you even see this?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Have you been watching how much the Republicans give a shit about the debt? They don't, they never did. I agree with you on govt. waste though.

What I almost never hear is - the military budget is almost $1T per year. Most of this is to feed the military industrial complex and there is virtually no difference between Dems and Republicans when it comes to feeding that machine and they will play on the fears and phobia of a country gone off the rails since 9/11 and tell you it's about national security. And then you complain about national debt. Do you even see this?

Never forget that at the same time the war on terror was ramping up, Republicans passed massive tax cuts. Not sure how someone can still claim they're the party of fiscal responsibility, because this was way before Trump, and was back when he just had a stupid TV show. They're more like the party of trickle-down economics exemplified by tax cuts for the rich and refusing to spend money on poor people. This was not something Trump invented.

 

[Nicodemus]

If you cut taxes and keep spending more, it just adds to the country's debt and doesn't improve the overall economic climate except in the short term.

Another reason not to vote for Trump, who is doing precisely that.

 

[highlander]

Have you been watching how much the Republicans give a shit about the debt? They don't, they never did. I agree with you on govt. waste though.

What I almost never hear is - the military budget is almost $1T per year. Most of this is to feed the military industrial complex and there is virtually no difference between Dems and Republicans when it comes to feeding that machine and they will play on the fears and phobia of a country gone off the rails since 9/11 and tell you it's about national security. And then you complain about national debt. Do you even see this?

Yes, I do see that. This is the breakdown.

Policy Basics: Where Do Our Federal Tax Dollars Go? | Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

59% goes to entitlement programs. Defense and international security assistance is 15%. Interest on debt is 7%. Government pensions are 8%. That's 90% of it.

Of course, people have been paying into social security their entire working lives, so that's a reasonable and fair entitlement.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Yes, I do see that. This is the breakdown.

Policy Basics: Where Do Our Federal Tax Dollars Go? | Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

59% goes to entitlement programs. Defense AND international security assistance is 15%. Interest on debt is 7%. Government pensions are 8%.

Social Security is not really an entitlement, at least not any more than a 401k. There's a separate tax for it apart from "income tax". People pay into it their whole life.

It would be more honest to look at solely where INCOME TAX goes. Including programs that have a separate tax for them really muddles the picture.

 

[Jaguar]

How about increasing the capital gains tax to that of normal income?

Stocks held less than one year are taxed as regular income. Stocks held for more than a year are taxed at 0, 15, and 20% depending on your total income. Do you see that 0%? That's for all those so-called "rich" people Warren talks about who make less than $39,375.

15% is for those making $39,376 to $434,550
20% is for those making more than $434,551

You're risking loss of capital by investing and I think that deserves a lower rate than regular income. Are you risking loss of capital by throwing a paycheck into a money market account at your bank? No. Zero. Your interest earned from the money market is taxed at regular income rates. And I agree with that. There's no risk of capital. Furthermore, once you are above 200,000.00 in earnings you have to pay Net Investment Income Tax (aka: Obamacare tax) which means you owe an additional 3.8% above your regular income tax rate.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

"we can't afford that because of a deficit."

"oooh, you give me free tax cut, I'll vote for you."

 

[Jaguar]

My taxes went up under Trump. Who the fuck are you kidding? They capped the SALT deduction at 10,000.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

The last President that actually balanced the budget was Bill Clinton, and we know how much the "party of fiscal responsibility" loved him.

 

[highlander]

Bruce Rauner sucks. What we need is a progressive income tax, as opposed to a flat income tax. I'm working heavily on getting the Fair Tax referendum passed. When you add up all the taxes like income, sales, and property, rich people actually are taxed at a smaller percentage than everyone else. That doesn't seem terribly fiscally responsible if you ask me.

I trust you didn't vote for Dubya for a second term because of the tax cuts he gave in his first term while increasing government spending, so perhaps I shouldn't be so hasty in my judgements.

I'm not sure Rauner would have supported marijuana legalization, either, which will bring in more revenue. I didn't vote for Pritzker in the primary, but I'm happy with him at the moment.

The effective tax rate in Illinois is one of the highest in the nation if you include property taxes, income taxes and sales taxes. Meanwhile, population is declining because the tax environment doesn't support job creation. This all leads to lower housing values - and higher taxes because there are fewer people to tax.

Study: Illinois state tax burden ‘least-friendly’ in nation

So sure. Increase taxes more. That will fix things.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

My taxes went up under Trump. Who the fuck are you kidding? They capped the SALT deduction at 10,000.

hmmm... who did you vote for in 2004?