Trump vs. Bernie

[ceecee]

I definitely live in an area rife with pretentious tech bros. I don’t know if there is a term for them; the type who ‘splain to all the poor how to fix their lives, as if it’s that easy for everyone while claiming to be progressive.

But I do try not to generalize. I suppose the only way to meet the better ones would to go find sone. I suppose I will when/ if he comes through again.

There's lots of that, sadly. If you are struggling, it's clear there is something wrong with you or you are doing something to deserve it. People can keep believing there isn't rampant hatred of the poor in the US, at their own peril.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I've been to rallies before, even Obama who had crowds and energy like nothing before him. The Bernie rallies blow the Obama ones away. I would tell anyone, even if you don't support Bernie, go if there is a rally or event you can get to. Yes Bernie is angry and so are his supporters, me included. But that's not how you feel at the rally. You feel solidarity and love, as corny as that sounds. For anyone feeling beat down, depressed, sad or hopeless about the state of things - any Bernie event will help.

I thought Bernie's Iowa numbers seemed unrealistically high. Then I saw his rallies | Art Cullen | Opinion | The Guardian

I also want to add; There are Trump voters at Bernie rallies. It's all the same frustrations for the majority of people.

I'm OK with Bernie being angry. The major difference from trump is he doesn't negatively channel that anger toward entire demographics (billionaires excluded, obviously) and calls out negative behavior from his base.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I don’t really feel like being ‘splained to by a bunch of misogynist, well off, progressive” dudes, so far, that has been my experience. It could be a regional thing.

The presence of this sort of person among Bernie's base has been grossly hyped and overstated. That narrative really started with Hillary supporters back in 2016.

 

[Jaguar]

You are free to be as delusional as you like on this subject.

CNN and MSNBC's reports on Trump rallies oppose FOX's. Anyone who isn't deaf or blind for the last 3 years could easily verify it.

 

[Yuurei]

The presence of this sort of person among Bernie's base has been grossly hyped and overstated. That narrative really started with Hillary supporters back in 2016.

Ya, blame women. That’s a very convincing argument for ‘not misogynist.’
I don’t base my impressions of people on second-hand information but my own personal experience with individuals.

Are they a majority? My sample size is not large enough to say. I do believe they are the majority in my area as rich tech-companies tend draw those sorts of faux-progressives.

 

[Tomb1]

I can see Bloomberg is the guy the never trump republicans have been waiting to fall in love with.

Iceberg is a more measured form of Trump...as arrogant but more contained...3w2 so/sp (Trump) versus 3w2 sp/so (Iceberg)...

I had the Wizard (Wizard of Oz) designated as my fictional exemplar for 3w2 sp/so...Iceberg wore it well;

the man behind the curtain falls far short of what the Advertisements project:

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

STILL blaming Hillary huh?　Alright, I guess.
I don’t base my impressions of people on second-hand information but my own personal experience with individuals.

Are they a majority? My sample size is not large enough to say. I do believe they are the majority in my area as rich tech-companies tend draw those sorts of faux-progressives.

No, I'm blaming her supporters who picked up on that label and started tossing it around after it was used in a 2015 Atlantic pro-Hillary article. I remember the animosity from her supporters on facebook back in 2015 and 2016, often using the label to dismiss anyone they didn't agree with, or using the sexist label on Bernie supporters who were critical of Hillary's policies, to the point I eventually had to leave a lot of facebook groups--this is me basing my impressions on personal experience with those individuals, btw. A lot has been said about the toxicity of Bernie supporters and I'm not saying it wasn't a problem, but it wasn't limited to his supporters.

I don't doubt those types are a majority where you live.

 

[Jaguar]

CHUCK TODD, NBC NEWS: What did you mean when you said [billionaires] should not exist?

BERNIE SANDERS: We have a grotesque and immoral distribution of wealth and income. Mike Bloomberg owns more wealth than the bottom 125 million Americans. That's wrong. That's immoral.

Live your life your way and allow others to do the same. Butt the fuck out.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Ya, blame women. That’s a very convincing argument for ‘not misogynist.’
I don’t base my impressions of people on second-hand information but my own personal experience with individuals.

Are they a majority? My sample size is not large enough to say. I do believe they are the majority in my area as rich tech-companies tend draw those sorts of faux-progressives.

I see you went back and edited, although your original post is quoted in my reply, so I'll reply to your edit as well.

I'm not sure where the 'blame women' comment is coming from. Who is that directed at? If me, I'm not sure where you're seeing me "blame women" for anything happening in the current election or in 2016. Just stating that I think the numbers of this type of Bernie supporter are way overstated.

 

[Yuurei]

No, I'm blaming her supporters who picked up on that label and started tossing it around after it was used in a 2015 Atlantic article. I remember the animosity from her supporters on facebook back in 2015 and 2016, often using the label to dismiss anyone they didn't agree with, or using the sexist label on Bernie supporters who were critical of Hillary's policies, to the point I eventually had to leave a lot of facebook groups--this is me basing my impressions on personal experience with those individuals, btw. A lot has been said about the toxicity of Bernie supporters and I'm not saying it wasn't a problem, but it wasn't limited to his supporters.

I don't doubt those types are a majority where you live.

Yeah, I can definitely agree with that. All the candidates had their share of toxicity.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Yeah, I can definitely agree with that. All the candidates had their share of toxicity.

We can probably agree they all pale in comparison to the toxicity from trump and trump supporters

 

[Virtual ghost]

Ya, blame women. That’s a very convincing argument for ‘not misogynist.’
I don’t base my impressions of people on second-hand information but my own personal experience with individuals.

Are they a majority? My sample size is not large enough to say. I do believe they are the majority in my area as rich tech-companies tend draw those sorts of faux-progressives.

That one is easy.
If you constantly trash women for the sake of trashing women you aren't really a progressive person. At best you are a person that is talking shit and which will perhaps vote progressive on the election day. Lifestyle and voting habits simply aren't in sync within all people.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Ya, blame women. That’s a very convincing argument for ‘not misogynist.’
I don’t base my impressions of people on second-hand information but my own personal experience with individuals.

Are they a majority? My sample size is not large enough to say. I do believe they are the majority in my area as rich tech-companies tend draw those sorts of faux-progressives.

I think for any rational person who isn't a Rand-worshipping aspiring sociopath, things like Bernie's stances on health care outweigh the fact that a couple "tech bros" might like him. But that's just me.

I suppose you could call me a tech bro, albeit an unemployed one. I graduated from college in the face of the great recession (class of 09!), and one reason I'm for Bernie is that I'm annoyed at the suggestion that the only reason people struggle is because they're lazy or don't have enough education. I'm rather tired of being told it's all my fault when employers don't seem to know the definition of "entry level." A recruiter even admitted to me the other day that "entry level" doesn't really exist. To get to the point where I'm even a viable candidate, I have to put a shit load of effort into doing things that I don't even get paid for. Even then, I have to cover up the fact that I didn't get paid for it because plenty of people have the impression that if I didn't get paid for it, it doesn't count as experience (despite the fact that nobody will pay people to do those things without 2, maybe 1 year of experience). And yes, I check all the right boxes in terms of education. So it's not education (for which I achieved massive amount of debt), but rather the fact that I live in a neoliberal hellscape where I'm constantly told that scumfucks like Bloomberg and Trump deserve to have way more money then the rest of the planet combined because they're just that more awesome.

I'm waiting for Jaguar to swoop in and call me whiny. I believe he also called me a freeloader for daring to claim unemployment so I could pay may exorbitant $800 dollar a month health insurance premiums.

 

[Yuurei]

I think for any rational person who isn't a Rand-worshipping aspiring sociopath, things like Bernie's stances on health care outweigh the fact that a couple "tech bros" might like him. But that's just me.

I suppose you could call me a tech bro, albeit an unemployed one. I graduated from college in the face of the great recession (class of 09!), and one reason I'm for Bernie is that I'm annoyed at the suggestion that the only reason people struggle is because they're lazy or don't have enough education. I'm rather tired of being told it's all my fault when employers don't seem to know the definition of "entry level." A recruiter even admitted to me the other day that "entry level" doesn't really exist. To get to the point where I'm even a viable candidate, I have to put a shit load of effort into doing things that I don't even get paid for. Even then, I have to cover up the fact that I didn't get paid for it because plenty of people have the impression that if I didn't get paid for it, it doesn't count as experience (despite the fact that nobody will pay people to do those things without 2, maybe 1 year of experience). And yes, I check all the right boxes in terms of education. So it's not education (for which I achieved massive amount of debt), but rather the fact that I live in a neoliberal hellscape where I'm constantly told that scumfucks like Bloomberg and Trump deserve to have way more money then the rest of the planet combined because they're just that more awesome.

I'm waiting for Jaguar to swoop in and call me whiny. I believe he also called me a freeloader for daring to claim unemployment so I could pay may exorbitant $800 dollar a month health insurance premiums.

Really? You’re really resorting to such ridiculous personal insults? If you’ve read anything I’ve ever posted you know I am nothing of the sort You’re preaching to the choir. I totally get it.
I’ll discuss this with you in earnest when you can respond with civility instead of ranting at me over things I have no control over.

I wouldn’t put much stock into anything Jag says. If being rich as he claims to be is so great you would think he’d have better things to do than start arguments on an internet forum and sit around clicking refresh until someone responds.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Really? You’re really resorting to such ridiculous personal insults? If you’ve read anything I’ve ever posted you know I am nothing of the sort You’re preaching to the choir. I totally get it.
I’ll discuss this with you in earnest when you can respond with civility instead of ranting at me over things I have no control over.

That wasn't aimed at you or really anyone on this forum. You misunderstood me. I see you as the opposite of that.

 

[Yuurei]

That wasn't aimed at you or really anyone on this forum. You misunderstood me. I see you as the opposite of that.

Oooh. Well then, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I am not a fan of “Bernie Bros” but I’d vote for him if he shows up on the ballot.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Oooh. Well then, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I am not a fan of “Bernie Bros” but I’d vote for him if he shows up on the ballot.

Yeah... I specifically did not have you in mind when I wrote that.

 

[Tomb1]

love sanders or hate him the unelectability argument is not without merit. historically, the US is not vulnerable to socialism except in times of economic despair. As a general rule of thumb, major systematic upheavels typically arise out of a widespread loss in confidence.

The higher unemployment rates go the more electable Sanders becomes in a general election...the more electable they all become but with Sanders the rates have to go really high. If a great depression occurs, Sander's chance of victory over Trump goes way, way up.

Assuming its bernie and trump...Trump's best strategy is to just paint a rosy picture of the economy....and paint bernie as super socialist. likewise, bernie needs to paint a grim, grim picture of the economy. ultimately the economy speaks for itself so the rosier the economy is, the less Trump has to do to win.

Essentially, Sanders needs a great depression to pull off a general election victory. As that's unlikely to occur, the unelectability argument has a lot of weight.

 

[ceecee]

love sanders or hate him the unelectability argument is not without merit.

historically, the US is not vulnerable to socialism except in times of economic despair.

The higher unemployment rates go the more electable he becomes...the more electable they all become but with him the rates have to go really high.

If a great depression occurs, Sander's chance of victory goes way, way up.

Assuming its bernie and trump...Trump's best strategy is to just paint a rosy picture of the economy....and paint bernie as super socialist.

likewise, bernie needs to paint a grim, grim picture of the economy.

ultimately the economy speaks for itself so the rosier the economy is, the less Trump has to do to win.

While Trump can tout the stock market (which is being artificially inflated by the Fed) and unemployment and job creation (low paying, no benefit, service work mostly) it means little if most Americans are not seeing changes and the great economy is mostly benefiting the wealthy yet again. Also healthcare cost and most employer healthcare deductibles have gone up as of 2020 and that promised replacement to the ACA? Delayed again. < grim picture.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

While Trump can tout the stock market (which is being artificially inflated by the Fed) and unemployment and job creation (low paying, no benefit, service work mostly) it means little if most Americans are not seeing changes and the great economy is mostly benefiting the wealthy yet again. Also healthcare cost and most employer healthcare deductibles have gone up as of 2020 and that promised replacement to the ACA? Delayed again. < grim picture.

I think any advantage Trump has due to the economy isn't really affected by whether or not his opposition calls himself a socialist. It may give him an advantage, but I think it would really be the same against any Democratic competitor. If people feel like Trump's done them good, it's not like Bloomberg would be more able to convince them to "reverse course" than Sanders would. They'd stick for what they feel has worked for them, period.

Trump also has a pretty significant disadvantage in that he has never polled above 50% in approval ratings. Unlike Dubya, who was bolstered by 9/11, there's nothing that has really given him a massive spike like that at any point (and I hope to God that doesn't happen, lol).

I'd say I'm much more bullish about the prospect of Trump being a 1 term president than I was three months ago. I figured he was almost certain to get re-elected. In part, this was because I thought the Democrats would mount a weak challenger like Joe Biden who would just repeat Hillary's talking points. Now that the likelihood of that has gone down, I'm more optimistic (although I do not see it as inevitable). It is essential to not go into this election letting Trump and Republicans define the terms of the debate; that gives them the advantage, as it usually has in the past.

My first presidential election was against a Republican incumbent president; I've been worried that history would repeat itself, but I think there's a good chance that it won't happen if Sanders gets the nom. I truly believe that Sanders has the best chance against Trump. This is a time of populism; very few people actually were that crazy on the pre-Trump status quo to begin with.