"Bible is as Toxic as Quran, but Christians Don't Believe the Bible Literally"

[ChocolateMoose123]

Strictly speaking, Catholics are Christians and the largest organization of Christians in the world. Your reference to "Christians" when in relation to Catholics would be better stated as Protestants. Not that it's a huge deal because I get your meaning but I'm a stickler about semantics like this ( blame Ti ).

Dawkins' point of view is that faith is a virus because its antithetical to reason. Therefore, he views faith in general or any kind of ideas that require suspension of reason as 'toxic.' Any resource material such as the Bible or Quran that require faith in order to believe their truth value is therefore, toxic.

I understand his line of reasoning and agree with it from an intellectual point of view. I'm also an atheist.

However, I do agree with you when you say:


I agree with you. The majority of religious people I've ever known have been fine people who care about doing the right thing in general. In fact, I appreciate the fact that they care about morality even in the abstract rather than being amoral relativists like some atheists I know. The only caveat I would throw in here is that I disagree with teaching children about heaven and hell and some unprovable god judging their every action. I think it's perfectly legitimate to teach about the consequences of right and wrong but I don't think a supernatural element that judges you is required, especially for impressionable children.

Yes. Protestants. Thank you.

Parents can teach their children anything. Parents can teach their children that God exists. That is a main point in freedom of religion. They are able to pass on their values and morals from a religious context.

I understand atheists won't agree with this and will think it's brainwashing. But how would that be any different than a Christian denouncing an atheist raising their children atheistic?

When you really get down to it it's moronic. We have the ability to practice any religion or no religion if we choose to do so. People should mind their own business and worry about their own life than what other people do with theirs.


An atheist would say well I worry because affects me because look at what the world is doing. Wars being fought based on religion blah blah blah. As if War doesn't happen when religion isn't involved ?? As if wars based on religious premises aren't merely the excuse given to enact a stand for power?

And a religious person will say I care about homosexuality in others because it is degrading the culture that I live in. When is the world coming to ?

They're both toxic, IMO because they're close minded, non-multifaceted thinkers.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

Yes. Protestants. Thank you.

Por nada

Parents can teach their children anything. Parents can teach their children that God exists. That is a main point in freedom of religion. They are able to pass on their values and morals from a religious context.

From a principled point of view I agree with you insofar as any sort of government dictating what they can and can't teach to their children. From a personal/aesthetic point of view (which is just an opinion) I ask how great is it to teach kids to believe things on faith? How justified is it to teach children that if they don't accept a certain point of view they will burn for eternity? I recognize most religious do not teach their children such drastic consequences or at least do not impose that but I think question of faith vs. reason here is still relevant.

I understand atheists won't agree with this and will think it's brainwashing. But how would that be any different than a Christian denouncing an atheist raising their children atheistic?

I see it as brainwashing because you are teaching them a forgone conclusion without justifying it with reason and evidence. Someone is telling them to just believe based on their authority as a parent and traditional values they've never really questioned either. And you are right, teaching your children a conclusion such as "Listen little Billy, God doesn't exist" is also brainwashing. Most atheists I know don't do this though. They raise their children 'agnostic' in the sense that they don't subject them to religious indoctrination but they also don't tell them what to think rather they focus on teaching them how to think. In other words, they encourage creativity and rationality and allow their children to decide for themselves when they are adults.

When you really get down to it it's moronic. We have the ability to practice any religion or no religion if we choose to do so. People should mind their own business and worry about their own life than what other people do with theirs.

Again this makes perfect sense and the libertarian 'values' I hold want to give you a golf clap but it gets complicated with children since they have no choice. It's almost always the case that they are forced to go along with whatever their parents/caretakers impose on them (gently or harshly).

An atheist would say well I worry because affects me because look at what the world is doing. Wars being fought based on religion blah blah blah. As if War doesn't happen when religion isn't involved ?? As if wars based on religious premises aren't merely the excuse given to enact a stand for power?

I agree, not all wars are caused by religion. I haven't met an atheist yet that blames all the world's problems on religion but I'm sure they're out there. When atheists and non-religious want to use overwhelming power and violence ( like state power) against religious institutions then I obviously disagree with that. In fact, I get into debates with a few fellow atheists over issues like this though I tend to refer to those types as 'statheists' since they are enamored with statism and social engineering

And a religious person will say I care about homosexuality in others because it is degrading the culture that I live in. When is the world coming to ?

They're both toxic, IMO because they're close minded, non-multifaceted thinkers.

Absolutely. Narrow minds on either side isn't doing world much good. This is why it's even more imperative to try to teach children how to think and not what to think. In other words, hold back the conclusions and focus on the thinking process.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Strictly speaking, Catholics are Christians and the largest organization of Christians in the world. Your reference to "Christians" when in relation to Catholics would be better stated as Protestants. Not that it's a huge deal because I get your meaning but I'm a stickler about semantics like this ( blame Ti ).

I found it fascinating once I moved to Texas that when most people here say "Christian", they mean "Baptist". A Lutheran friend told me it was very difficult growing up being told he wasn't Christian.

Likewise, a Catholic friend who grew up in West Texas told me that he got treated like a crazy pagan.

I never encountered this outside the South.....

Just a side note on your Ti moment

 

[Virtual ghost]

You either don't believe or you do. The majority of religious people in the world are doing less harm than atheists would like to admit.

Actually that depends on how exactly do you define "harm". For example towards some people having more than 2 children can be harm.

Yes. Protestants. Thank you.

Parents can teach their children anything. Parents can teach their children that God exists. That is a main point in freedom of religion. They are able to pass on their values and morals from a religious context.

I understand atheists won't agree with this and will think it's brainwashing. But how would that be any different than a Christian denouncing an atheist raising their children atheistic?

When you really get down to it it's moronic. We have the ability to practice any religion or no religion if we choose to do so. People should mind their own business and worry about their own life than what other people do with theirs.

Yeah, but it is not that simple. When first world atheists rises next generation of atheists they for the most part leave them be and they are only careful that the child is good in shcool or that it doesn't do drugs and similar to that. However in trully religious environment/family you will probably have a different story. The pressue that child adopts clearly defined social norms is much more strict. Such childern often have to study in their free time all kind of texts that border on fairly tails ... instead that they just play outside.

What is extra dangerous since the modern world is based on technology and it's results, therefore if you educate people in a way that is unscientific you are destroying foundations on which the world is standing. One of the reason why around the world elections turned into a joke is because people are uneducated enough about the topics how world really works from technical perspective. Therefore elites put on a show for the public and afterwards they do "what has to be done". Religious family can completely twist persons view of sexuality to the point that the person gets disfunctional in this regard, or they are vulnerable to STDs since they didn't go throught basics of sexual education. Not to mention that atheists are very unlikely to cut away part of a penis to their newest familiy members or they are much less likey to deliver children to a sexual predator disgused as priest simply because that is "tradition" ... what is altogather completely pointless risk for the children.


Also I must mention that "closed minded" is often just a hostile version of "He knows what he wants".


Therefore I disagree that this is all just the same and tolerance of all kinds of behaviours are completely ok if certain behaviour is just a culture of certain group of people. I am sorry but your worldview is basically unacceptable to me.

 

[Rasofy]

so not only americans take away the name of the continent as a reference to their country

they also take away the name an entire religion to refer to their branches

 

[ZNP-TBA]

I found it fascinating once I moved to Texas that when most people here say "Christian", they mean "Baptist". A Lutheran friend told me it was very difficult growing up being told he wasn't Christian.

Likewise, a Catholic friend who grew up in West Texas told me that he got treated like a crazy pagan.

I never encountered this outside the South.....

Just a side note on your Ti moment

I think it might have something to do with nationalism too. The majority of the Catholic population in Texas is Hispanic whereas the majority of non-Hispanic Americans is non-Catholic Christian. The non-Catholics probably see Catholicism as foreign almost as much as Islam

 

[Ivy]

Oh yeah, a lot of Protestants in the South don't think Catholics are real Christians. It's kind of infuriating, honestly.

 

[Virtual ghost]

So Catholics can be treated as none Christians ? That is a good one.

 

[Ivy]

I think it might have something to do with nationalism too. The majority of the Catholic population in Texas is Hispanic whereas the majority of non-Hispanic Americans is non-Catholic Christian. The non-Catholics probably see Catholicism as foreign almost as much as Islam

I think this prejudice predates the majority of the Latino population's arrival, at least here. Catholics are thought of as idolators who pray to many gods (saints). It's glorified voodoo to them.

To the OP, I've actually thought this before myself, honestly- if fundamentalist Christians took the Bible as literally as fundamentalist Muslims do, they would be advocating for stonings and hand removals and executions just like what happens in Chop Chop Square in Saudi Arabia. Some Christians may take PARTS of the bible literally, but very few take the whole thing that literally. Nobody's making his wife stay in the garage when she's on her period, for example. That I know of.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I think it might have something to do with nationalism too. The majority of the Catholic population in Texas is Hispanic whereas the majority of non-Hispanic Americans is non-Catholic Christian. The non-Catholics probably see Catholicism as foreign almost as much as Islam

Nope. Hispanics in Texas are largely Tejanos, and no one ever tell a 5th generation Tejano they are foreign or Mexican.

Baptists here just treat everyone else as heathens, unfortunately.... no racial or nationalist issues. Nice people but it gets annoying as a non Baptist (and non Catholic)

 

[Poki]

When intelligent people talk about how they know God is not real, etc, it reinforces what a fool they really are. (fool being a biblical term)

God is not something that can be proved or known by intellectual thought exercises, pHDs, or philosophical debates. Belief and faith are largely irrational processes.


And I believe your title is misleading. And slightly baiting. I get where he was coming from. He was referring to jihad. What he does not realize is that it's not that Christians take the Bible metaphorically, it's that CHRIST teaches love first and foremost. He wouldn't understand that because he is an atheist.

Actually, while the Bible may "say" you should laove first and foremost, actual practice says a different story. I have to generally flat out say...if God is like "that" he can kiss my ass. "That" is when people get on the vengeful, spiteful, etc. That God "is", only to later go against what they said he will do and speak about who he is as if actions and person are not one. Has nothing to do with aethiest. I know lots of Christians who will say " God and christianity is about love first and foremost" and then turn around and spit hateful shit on people which is not loving. You can argue all you want...but this is Christians doing this and I honestly have abhard time finding a "non-judgmental" church. Everyone will say..the chuch I go to doesn't judge...when in all reality all it means is that I agree with their judgements and therefore it is truth, not judgement. Bunch of stupid shit if you ask me. Religion and church screws up love more tyen it helps it. It creates "groups" and "clicks" which push being outcast if you don't fit in. You can spout "idealism" all day long, but I speak reality, not what people want it to be.

 

[Beorn]

Actually, while the Bible may "say" you should laove first and foremost, actual practice says a different story. I have to generally flat out say...if God is like "that" he can kiss my ass. "That" is when people get on the vengeful, spiteful, etc. That God "is", only to later go against what they said he will do and speak about who he is as if actions and person are not one. Has nothing to do with aethiest. I know lots of Christians who will say " God and christianity is about love first and foremost" and then turn around and spit hateful shit on people which is not loving. You can argue all you want...but this is Christians doing this and I honestly have abhard time finding a "non-judgmental" church. Everyone will say..the chuch I go to doesn't judge...when in all reality all it means is that I agree with their judgements and therefore it is truth, not judgement. Bunch of stupid shit if you ask me. Religion and church screws up love more tyen it helps it. It creates "groups" and "clicks" which push being outcast if you don't fit in. You can spout "idealism" all day long, but I speak reality, not what people want it to be.

So your response is to judge them and believe yourself to be better than them?

 

[anticlimatic]

The bible thumping evangelists in my family do interpret it as literal, word-of-god truth.

The other christians in my family interpret it as allegory. I guess it depends on the individual and the denomination.

I used to work with an egyptian guy and he seemed to interpret the koran more metaphorically than literally. He interpreted jihad to mean a personal or spiritual struggle and not necessarily to mean a physical, earthly war or battle.

I always thought if I were going to submit to a theocratic religion, islam would be the way to go. True monotheism right there...none of this trinity bullshit.

So better to have a government that's a pure monarchy instead of one with an executive, judicial, and legislative branch?

Christianity doesn't get enough credit for how many intrinsic checks and balances it has. The western left has spent too much time at war with it to see the world of difference between it and Islam.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I see it as brainwashing because you are teaching them a forgone conclusion without justifying it with reason and evidence. Someone is telling them to just believe based on their authority as a parent and traditional values they've never really questioned either. And you are right, teaching your children a conclusion such as "Listen little Billy, God doesn't exist" is also brainwashing. Most atheists I know don't do this though. They raise their children 'agnostic' in the sense that they don't subject them to religious indoctrination but they also don't tell them what to think rather they focus on teaching them how to think. In other words, they encourage creativity and rationality and allow their children to decide for themselves when they are adults.

I'm not sure I think this is true for a lot of atheists. I think if you are an agnostic, your example holds weight.

At least, the atheists I know are pretty vocal about belief in a higher power as being equated to lesser intelligence. That without proof you shouldn't believe. Period. So, a child would take that to heart if heard enough. The kid would certainly grow up with an aversion to religious belief. Is that not the same as a religious person passing down their belief system to their children? They would grow up with an aversion to atheism? It is common sense. But the difference is that as an adult, you can make choices for yourself and change your mind. You have that freedom.

Again this makes perfect sense and the libertarian 'values' I hold want to give you a golf clap but it gets complicated with children since they have no choice. It's almost always the case that they are forced to go along with whatever their parents/caretakers impose on them (gently or harshly).

You mean children have no choice in how they are raised? I mean. Yes. Is this shocking or something?

I do think that once a child reaches the age where they can reason or discuss religion with their parents that this can be negotiated with. At 13, I chose not to go to church anymore. My father was a Pentacostal preacher. My mother a devout believer. They were okay with this because I could verbalize reasoning for it.

Still, what if they said I "had to go" ... Now it's a kid telling their atheistic parents they want to go to church...

So this comes down to parenting. Are you (atheist or believer) going to over-ride your child when they start to have questions? Desires that go against how you raised them? Go against what you believe?

Do you hardline it? Discuss it? That has less to do with religion being taught to children or it not being taught and more to do with parenting styles.

 

[Bush]

Seems to me that if interpretation drives the toxicity, then the problem doesn't wholly lie with the book itself.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

So better to have a government that's a pure monarchy instead of one with an executive, judicial, and legislative branch?

Christianity doesn't get enough credit for how many intrinsic checks and balances it has. The western left has spent too much time at war with it to see the world of difference between it and Islam.

Do what now?

 

[Lark]

Seems to me that if interpretation drives the toxicity, then the problem doesn't wholly lie with the book itself.

Of course its so!

This is all a lot of BS born of the solo scripture HERESY and HERETICS are wicked and live in ERROR

 

[Poki]

So your response is to judge them and believe yourself to be better than them?

Better, no. Opinion, not judgement. I know it's a personal perception, not a fact or truth. Hence the "if you ask me".

 

[1487610420]

When intelligent people talk about how they know God is not real, etc, it reinforces what a fool they really are. (fool being a biblical term)

God is not something that can be proved or known by intellectual thought exercises, pHDs, or philosophical debates. Belief and faith are largely irrational processes.


And I believe your title is misleading. And slightly baiting. I get where he was coming from. He was referring to jihad. What he does not realize is that it's not that Christians take the Bible metaphorically, it's that CHRIST teaches love first and foremost. He wouldn't understand that because he is an atheist.

thx Lark

 

[ZNP-TBA]

I'm not sure I think this is true for a lot of atheists. I think if you are an agnostic, your example holds weight.

Well without actual statistics we can only speculate. I can offer this bit of anecdotal evidence though, I know a lot of people in the agnostic and atheist 'community,' many of them parents, and they take great care not to raise their children with preconceived biases for or against a belief in god. Their homes are irreligious but not anti-religious as religion is rarely discussed in front of children either positively or negatively, it just doesn't exist in their homes. I would say out of the 200+ atheists I personally know that 99% of them are "agnostic-atheists" or a "6" on the Dawkins scale including myself.

A 'true agnostic' is someone that's 50/50 on the issue and usually ambivalent. I'm like 99/1

At least, the atheists I know are pretty vocal about belief in a higher power as being equated to lesser intelligence.

They are probably referring to the research & studies done on the correlation between religiosity and intelligence.

Those with higher intelligence are less likely to believe in God claims new review of 63 scientific studies stretching back decades | Daily Mail Online

Still, those atheists you speak of are wrong in the sense that that claim can't be universalized because there are plenty of believers with high IQs

That without proof you shouldn't believe. Period.

This is a 'show da moneyz' kind of approach. Strictly empirical, thing is, not everything can be proven empirically. In fact only math offers absolute proofs but math by its very nature is abstract and theoretical. However, when making claims of certitude about reality then, yes, there should be some kind of logical consistency and/or empirical evidence to back up your claim. When people make claims about objective reality (i.e. the reality you and I both live in) then it's truth value should be verifiable and falsifiable, something we can both point to and go "yup."

So, a child would take that to heart if heard enough

That's very possible but again, of the several "atheist families" I know of with children, religion or talk of religion is not present in the home.

The kid would certainly grow up with an aversion to religious belief

Not necessarily in the same way you do not have an aversion to Buddhism (unless you do?? ) I'd imagine you weren't raised with any pro-Buddhist or anti-Buddhist beliefs. You have a critically thinking mind and I'm sure you can evaluate Buddhism now on some pretty sound reasoning

Is that not the same as a religious person passing down their belief system to their children? They would grow up with an aversion to atheism? It is common sense. But the difference is that as an adult, you can make choices for yourself and change your mind. You have that freedom.

Yes it's the same when "There is a god" and when " There is no god" is shoved down some poor child's throat. That's forcing them to accept a conclusion without teaching them critical thinking skills first. I oppose any of this.

You mean children have no choice in how they are raised? I mean. Yes. Is this shocking or something?

All the more reason parents should be extra careful to raise their children on how to think rather than what to think.

I do think that once a child reaches the age where they can reason or discuss religion with their parents that this can be negotiated with. At 13, I chose not to go to church anymore. My father was a Pentacostal preacher. My mother a devout believer. They were okay with this because I could verbalize reasoning for it.

That's fantastic! I don't even know your parents and I like them already . Of the atheist parents I know almost all of them (99%) are like your parents and do not force their children to stay away from religion. One kid even wanted to go to Bible study with his friends and the parents consented. They were eager to ask their kid what he learned and what he thought about it all encouraging him to really think about it.

So this comes down to parenting. Are you (atheist or believer) going to over-ride your child when they start to have questions? Desires that go against how you raised them? Go against what you believe?

Do you hardline it? Discuss it? That has less to do with religion being taught to children or it not being taught and more to do with parenting styles.

Unfortunately I notice these days that many parenting styles just suck (regardless of the religion or non-religion of the parents).
As a parent I'd almost never override my child. In fact, my 4 yr old god son asked me (ironic right? ) is there a such thing as Santa Claus? I looked at him and said "Now that's an interesting question! What do you think?," He said, "Not sure, everyone else thinks he's real" to which I responded "Why are you not sure?" which lead to a very fun and informative conversation and just through questions I let him form his own conclusion ( the answer was not real but still fun!) plus a 4 yr old attention span is only so long...

Btw, I really didn't mean to nit-pick your post in an annoying kind of way. This is just how my Ti-brain works, heh.