[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[EJCC]

I'm one of the few people who actually enjoys and learns from old-school, typical lecture-type courses-- but I learn best if I can ask tons of questions and interact with the questions with a teacher. I learn best when I'm asking lots of questions and when I'm taking notes. When it's a practical, hands-on kind of thing, I'd like to see someone else do it first, then do it myself with guidance and the ability to ask questions. I appreciate a teacher who challenges me and is patient with all my questions.

Yes to all of this. You phrased it a lot better than me -- I overthought it

Things I don't like: GROUP PROJECTS (I seem to always get stuck with people who are stupid and/or lazy) and activities that are supposed to ~make learning fun~. (I can't think of an example right now, but this stuff bugged me when I was younger.)

I don't know how much of this is type related and how much of it is individual idiosyncrasy.

Regarding "making learning fun": It depended on the class, for me. When I was in grade school (up to 12th grade), I did so consistently well in every class (regardless of whether I liked it) that I wouldn't be motivated enough to be annoyed by those sorts of things. My standards for myself were the same as the standard for an A in a class, so if it didn't take much to get an A, I wouldn't expect to work very hard, and I wouldn't be very motivated to work hard. (You can tell I wasn't challenged in school... lol. College is a lot harder!) So, I'd come to chem class and hear that we would be watching a (cool but irrelevant) NOVA special, and I'd think "Sweet! NOVA is an awesome show! And it's an excuse not to do classwork!"

Regarding group projects: they can bug me too, but it really does depend on whether I'm in a group of slackers or not. And on that note:

Of course, it depends on the class. I hate the ones where group members evaluate each other - because then you have to be nice to the incompetents and slackers, otherwise they'll get revenge on you during evaluation (either make you out to be a tyrannical monster or totally make up lies together and pin YOU as a slacker).

I'm either ESTP or ENTJ, but regardless, I'm 3w4. Last project, I worked with an incompetent ESTP and a slacking ESFP. My attitude was that aggression was a really bad idea. So, I dredged up every last speck of Fe in me and "encouraged" them while giving them the boring secretarial type tasks. Worked out for me, actually. I got to man the strategy and the creative part, they took care of the details stuff.

ESTJs....how would you have dealt with group slackers? And assume you could NOT go to the professor, because she despised you as it was...

I would pretty much do exactly what you did. I would refuse to do all the work myself, and instead pick work for them that I thought they were capable of doing, and that I knew that I could trust them to do. Basic rules of management, you know?

And if I couldn't trust them to do anything (not even the simplest tasks), I would try to talk to the professor anyway, regardless of whether they hated me or not. Professors are supposed to be objective and not pick favorites, so if the professor were to blow me off, they wouldn't be doing their job, and I could complain to the higher-ups. Sure, the professor would hate me even more, but as long as my grade was good and everything got solved, I wouldn't care.

(Also, I would ask a TA, if that were an option.)

You remind them at least 10 times a day, via text, mobile, or twatter with a point by point readout of what their tasks. Everytime they don't respond, send a complementary message about how they didn't respond, because if they didn't respond they are probably unaware you were trying to reach them. Make sure their message machine audio file features their name and phone number, and if it doesn't, send another message to remind them of this fact.

I don't see any resentment in this post at ALL.

What you're describing, while I relate to it (in a less exaggerated form), is not ESTJ specific. It isn't even SJ specific. Really, any obsessive J can do this. The person I know who is the most like this is my aunt, who is INxJ (tests as INTJ, but used to be INFJ so has very developed Fe).

Oh, yes, I should have clarified. What I mean is: My professors always tell me to make activities 'transparent', e.g. we are doing this because... and at the end you should be able to..., and all that. But I think to myself, "Well, wouldn't that make people feel like babies?" :-/ Some people don't like being explicitly told what to do and why they're doing it. Others do, but not so explicitly. Others just want to learn their own way, and. Argh. Well, you see what I mean?

I do see what you mean. But I'm a pretty easygoing learner. What I said before is true of me, and what sui generis said is true of me. And also, I forgot to mention -- if professors are enthusiastic and obviously love what they do, I'll like the class a whole lot more. But considering your videos, I'm guessing that enthusiasm is already present.

So I guess my point is: out of all the students you should worry about catering to, ESTJs probably aren't going to be one of them. If they aren't learning what they want to be, they'll find a way to make sure they do. sui generis got it right when she said that it's pretty much just asking a ton of questions and then doing the work, for ESTJs.

 

[Tamske]

Oh, yes, I should have clarified. What I mean is: My professors always tell me to make activities 'transparent', e.g. we are doing this because... and at the end you should be able to..., and all that.

Because we have to. That's what they all say in the teacher's course. Of course, I tried to teach my way, but lots of students complained about it. They want to know what you expect from them. They want to know what they have to do in order to get good marks.
And I can get this, too. It should be clear. You don't want to learn in the wrong way. The worst is, of course, when the teacher says he values creative thinking but gives the best marks if you parrot the lesson.
I'd prefer less "repeating" - none of that nonsense of "This is the subject of the lesson. This is the lesson. This was the lesson." But for the most students this is necessary.

I wouldn't want to have myself as a teacher. I feel like a traitor.

 

[21%]

When ESTJs shut down communication

Dear ESTJs,

What is the best course of action when an ESTJ shuts down communication and wants to be 'left alone' because they cannot 'figure things out yet'? My ENFJ sister is having a hard time getting through to her ESTJ boyfriend. They fought; he said he felt he had no freedom and was unhappy trying to make her happy all the time. This came to her as a shock, because he never said anything about being unhappy at all. My sister was willing to work things out, but he wanted them to be apart for a while. Is there still hope? Is this a sign he has given up?

They had broken up and gotten back together several times now -- it's been 9 years since they first met. There is virtually no communication at the moment. From my point of view (especially Fe-dom and -aux) isn't it in Relationships 101 that you should talk about problems before they get bad? (And wouldn't Te want to 'solve' this instead of shutting down communication? )

I have no personal experience with male ESTJs, so any insight would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

 

[Tamske]

The ESTJ, especially a male ESTJ, would want to be sure that "talk about problems/feelings" wouldn't result in an emotional talk about problems/feelings.
You can imagine this:
ESTJ: I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
ENFJ: But I'm happy! You don't have to worry about that!
ESTJ: *shuts down*
This is what the ESTJ fears. He doesn't know what to do to solve the problem. He doesn't want to be reassured. He doesn't want to hear "there is no problem" if to him, there is one. Remember it's very difficult for him to communicate about emotional problems. It gets easier when he's allowed to analyse the emotions instead of acting on them.
My response would be different.
ESTJ: I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
Me: why do you have that impression?

 

[entropie]

ouh this flawless perfection makes me vomit my intestines.... how can someone be so living in his dream world and not notice it ?

 

[21%]

The ESTJ, especially a male ESTJ, would want to be sure that "talk about problems/feelings" wouldn't result in an emotional talk about problems/feelings.
You can imagine this:
ESTJ: I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
ENFJ: But I'm happy! You don't have to worry about that!
ESTJ: *shuts down*
This is what the ESTJ fears. He doesn't know what to do to solve the problem. He doesn't want to be reassured. He doesn't want to hear "there is no problem" if to him, there is one. Remember it's very difficult for him to communicate about emotional problems. It gets easier when he's allowed to analyse the emotions instead of acting on them.
My response would be different.
ESTJ: I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
Me: why do you have that impression?

Oh, very good point. That's very helpful, Tamske. I'll pass that on. That's perhaps also a general rule on how to communicate effectively with Ts?

 

[entropie]

Ask them to explain themselves ?

That's the best way to communicate with 99% of civilisation, that's genius !

 

[SilkRoad]

Do ESTJs, in less-than-ideal moments, have a tendency to give extensive advice WITHOUT HAVING HEARD ALL THE FACTS OF THE SITUATION YET (thus sometimes being fairly relevant, but at other times being way way off the mark)? Such has been my impression, I have to admit.

Do you think this is type related or not? How might this be worked around?

 

[Tamske]

Do ESTJs, in less-than-ideal moments, have a tendency to give extensive advice WITHOUT HAVING HEARD ALL THE FACTS OF THE SITUATION YET (thus sometimes being fairly relevant, but at other times being way way off the mark)?

Yes. They want to decide quickly and not lose time on details.

Do you think this is type related or not? How might this be worked around?

Give the most relevant facts first.
I have to communicate very differently to my mother (ENFJ) and to my husband (ESTJ). The former prefers: "Look, I did this and that one said that and then this happened and thus I'd like your help with that." The latter prefers: "Can you do this for me? I can't do it myself because this happened."

I recently talked with my mom on the phone, telling her she didn't need to make dessert for our next visit, because I wanted to bake a cake. She began a story about my sister. I didn't really have time and attention to hear that at that moment and guessed - "So that means I should bake a bigger cake, because sister's family will visit too?" She was miffed about that... "Hey, I've got to tell how it all came about!" Don't do that to an ESTJ.
An also quite recent example with the ESTJ:
Husband: "How was your evening?"
Me: "Bring a floorcloth."

So, what do you want?
Do you want no advice, only consoling? Tell them before you begin: "I need to rant to someone. Please just listen, I don't want advice right now."
Do you want advice, but there are lots of facts? Tell them: "Look, I want your advice on this subject. Please hear me out first, it's quite a complex situation."

 

[EJCC]

From my point of view (especially Fe-dom and -aux) isn't it in Relationships 101 that you should talk about problems before they get bad? (And wouldn't Te want to 'solve' this instead of shutting down communication? )

When it comes to emotional, personal problems, ESTJs tend to want to work things out on their own and only involve other people when all else has failed. If this ESTJ is like me, then he may have thought that it was entirely his problem and not his ENFJ's, i.e. that all that he needed was an attitude adjustment and then everything would be fine. So he put it off, tried to change his mindset, and it was completely in vain. Only then did he act.

The ESTJ, especially a male ESTJ, would want to be sure that "talk about problems/feelings" wouldn't result in an emotional talk about problems/feelings.
You can imagine this:
ESTJ: I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
ENFJ: But I'm happy! You don't have to worry about that!
ESTJ: *shuts down*
This is what the ESTJ fears. He doesn't know what to do to solve the problem. He doesn't want to be reassured. He doesn't want to hear "there is no problem" if to him, there is one. Remember it's very difficult for him to communicate about emotional problems. It gets easier when he's allowed to analyse the emotions instead of acting on them.
My response would be different.
ESTJ: I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
Me: why do you have that impression?

This is a freaking amazing post. It is all exactly right. Bringing that subject up, if you're a male ESTJ, would be opening up, and putting your emotional state at risk, leaving yourself vulnerable. When an ESTJ is in that state, what's best is to talk it out. Like Tamske said here, when ESTJs don't know what to do, they really just want to find a rational solution, because uncertainty worries them and cold hard facts are soothing and reassuring. (Also, ESTJs are REALLY BAD at dealing with irrational/emotional people. Even when people are rational, ESTJs can sometimes walk all over people's feelings without realizing what they're doing, and that gets even worse when people are emotional about it.

A possible thought process (addendum to Tamske's post):
ESTJ (internally): I don't know how to fix this relationship. I've been trying so hard, and nothing has worked, and I just can't think of any other options. I guess I'll have to talk to ENFJ, but I'm scared about what will happen; will she yell at me? I can't predict what she's going to do. But I really need reassurance. I need to know that this can be solved. I need closure. So I guess I'll talk to her.
ESTJ (externally): I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
ENFJ: But I'm happy! You don't have to worry about that!
ESTJ (internally): But I feel obligated to make you happy! Crap, I was right all along; it is my problem. If she really doesn't need me to make her happy, then I shouldn't be think this way. I guess I'll keep soul-searching, like I've been doing.
ESTJ: *shuts down*

So if this is what happened, then he probably broke up with her all those other times with an "it's not you it's me" attitude. Of course, if he didn't think that deeply about it (which is possible; I get the feeling that I'm unusually introspective for an ESTJ), then this could have been what happened:

ESTJ (internally): Damn, this is frustrating. I feel trapped by these obligations to my ENFJ. Maybe I can fix this if I talk to her about it... but I can't guarantee that she'll be rational about it. Ah well, we'll see how it goes.
ESTJ: I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
ENFJ: But I'm happy! You don't have to worry about that!
ESTJ (internally): Figures. She's not rational. If I elaborate, she'll get really upset with me and I won't know how to fix it; I'm so bad at rebuilding those bridges. I guess I should just avoid the topic.
ESTJ: *shuts down*

... And then the resentment builds and builds until the ESTJ explodes and breaks up with the ENFJ right then and there.

I dunno. There are so many possibilities! What does everyone else think? Feedback? Does this mesh well with your ESTJ experiences?

Do ESTJs, in less-than-ideal moments, have a tendency to give extensive advice WITHOUT HAVING HEARD ALL THE FACTS OF THE SITUATION YET (thus sometimes being fairly relevant, but at other times being way way off the mark)? Such has been my impression, I have to admit.

Do you think this is type related or not? How might this be worked around?

I know that it's type related. We do this because of our Te/Si communication, i.e. going through huge stores of information, picking out the "important stuff", and only communicating that with other people. Therefore, we assume that everyone else communicates the way that we do; i.e. giving all the relevant information up front.

It's funny that you bring this up, because this is one of the main reasons that I can have communication problems with the Ti/Fe people in my life (mostly INFJs but also xNTPs). I ALWAYS find myself in situations like these:

Ti person: *information about problem*
Me: Oh, well then you should do this.
Ti person: But I already did that.
Me: Okay, what about this?
Ti person: That would work except for this other important thing.
Me: Why didn't you say that before???

Can you really blame us for doing our best with the information we have? Honestly, as long as you don't let the ESTJ interrupt you mid-story, and as long as you give them all the information, then the communication problem is easy to avoid.

EDIT: Tamske pretty much summed it up already! Man, you don't even need me on this thread anymore. Tamske's got it covered!

 

[EJCC]

Do you want no advice, only consoling? Tell them before you begin: "I need to rant to someone. Please just listen, I don't want advice right now."

This is an excellent idea -- not just with ESTJs. My family dynamic at home actually requires this, because both me and my dad (INTP) are always trying to advise my mom (INFJ) when all she wants to do is vent. It's really because my dad and I don't vent very much, on a relative scale; we only talk about vent-worthy things when
1. people ask about them, or
2. we need advice.

 

[21%]

When it comes to emotional, personal problems, ESTJs tend to want to work things out on their own and only involve other people when all else has failed. If this ESTJ is like me, then he may have thought that it was entirely his problem and not his ENFJ's, i.e. that all that he needed was an attitude adjustment and then everything would be fine. So he put it off, tried to change his mindset, and it was completely in vain. Only then did he act.

This is a freaking amazing post. It is all exactly right. Bringing that subject up, if you're a male ESTJ, would be opening up, and putting your emotional state at risk, leaving yourself vulnerable. When an ESTJ is in that state, what's best is to talk it out. Like Tamske said here, when ESTJs don't know what to do, they really just want to find a rational solution, because uncertainty worries them and cold hard facts are soothing and reassuring. (Also, ESTJs are REALLY BAD at dealing with irrational/emotional people. Even when people are rational, ESTJs can sometimes walk all over people's feelings without realizing what they're doing, and that gets even worse when people are emotional about it.

A possible thought process (addendum to Tamske's post):
ESTJ (internally): I don't know how to fix this relationship. I've been trying so hard, and nothing has worked, and I just can't think of any other options. I guess I'll have to talk to ENFJ, but I'm scared about what will happen; will she yell at me? I can't predict what she's going to do. But I really need reassurance. I need to know that this can be solved. I need closure. So I guess I'll talk to her.
ESTJ (externally): I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
ENFJ: But I'm happy! You don't have to worry about that!
ESTJ (internally): But I feel obligated to make you happy! Crap, I was right all along; it is my problem. If she really doesn't need me to make her happy, then I shouldn't be think this way. I guess I'll keep soul-searching, like I've been doing.
ESTJ: *shuts down*

So if this is what happened, then he probably broke up with her all those other times with an "it's not you it's me" attitude. Of course, if he didn't think that deeply about it (which is possible; I get the feeling that I'm unusually introspective for an ESTJ), then this could have been what happened:

ESTJ (internally): Damn, this is frustrating. I feel trapped by these obligations to my ENFJ. Maybe I can fix this if I talk to her about it... but I can't guarantee that she'll be rational about it. Ah well, we'll see how it goes.
ESTJ: I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
ENFJ: But I'm happy! You don't have to worry about that!
ESTJ (internally): Figures. She's not rational. If I elaborate, she'll get really upset with me and I won't know how to fix it; I'm so bad at rebuilding those bridges. I guess I should just avoid the topic.
ESTJ: *shuts down*

... And then the resentment builds and builds until the ESTJ explodes and breaks up with the ENFJ right then and there.

I dunno. There are so many possibilities! What does everyone else think? Feedback? Does this mesh well with your ESTJ experiences?

Thanks for this! I think this is exactly how it is. It's also quite fascinating that I cannot really relate with this thought process at all, which perhaps illustrates why it's so hard for Te/Si and Fe/Ni to communicate! >_<

So, a more specific question: During the ESTJ's down-time where he wants no contact and wants to figure things out by himself, would it help that he gets the following message:

"I understand that you need time to figure things out, so I'm going to give you time. For me, relationships are about voicing out the issues and working through them. I didn't realize you were keeping quiet just to avoid emotional conflicts. I know I have a tendency to be emotional, but when that happens and if it makes communication difficult, I will appreciate you telling me so and we will try to 'tune in' to one another's language. At the moment I don't know if this is gong to work or not; I'm willing to work out the issues in a rational manner and discuss how we can make it better, but if you decide otherwise I will respect your wishes. Please understand, though, that I need some sort of solution. If you are willing to work things out in the future but just need some time alone I'll understand, and I'll wait. But if you decide it is over, please tell me directly and soon, so I can move on and heal."

That's my Fe's best attempt at communicating in a 'rational' manner. How will this sort of message be received? Is this even close to being rational about the whole thing? Can't believe how clueless I am about Te communication >_<


Thanks!

 

[Tamske]

EDIT: Tamske pretty much summed it up already! Man, you don't even need me on this thread anymore. Tamske's got it covered!

... Did I just beat an ESTJ in providing on-topic information? Yay!
Really, I'm very happy and thankful for your comments, even if you just say "that's right" - it reassures me that I can take care of my ESTJ

About those "rant warnings"... I confess they don't work that well in practice. When I need to rant, I'm usually emotionally riled up enough to forget about the warning... Also, my emotional outbursts tend to surprise even myself.

 

[EJCC]

Thanks for this! I think this is exactly how it is. It's also quite fascinating that I cannot really relate with this thought process at all, which perhaps illustrates why it's so hard for Te/Si and Fe/Ni to communicate! >_<

Indeed! I was just having a conversation with my ENFJ friend (appropriately enough!), and we were talking about what we would do if we had a big, friendship-threatening fight. He told me that what would work best for him would be if I said something along the lines of "I know I've made mistakes, but I really value our friendship, and it's so important to me that we stay friends..." And I replied by telling him thanks for letting me know that, because saying something like that would be very, very difficult and unnatural for me. My natural response would be to say something like "I'm so sorry, I feel terrible about this -- what happened was -- (insert rationale here) -- and I didn't realize it would offend you. I didn't mean you any harm. Whatever I can do to fix this, I will." But my ENFJ friend told me that if I said that to him, he would take it as "Here are the reasons why I was in the right, and here are the reasons why your feelings are invalid."

Man... I'm great at communicating with him in every other sense, but that made me really NOT look forward to fighting with him. I'm sure it will happen at some point (because it always does, with pretty much every friendship), and it's gonna be tricky.

"I understand that you need time to figure things out, so I'm going to give you time. For me, relationships are about voicing out the issues and working through them. I didn't realize you were keeping quiet just to avoid emotional conflicts. I know I have a tendency to be emotional, but when that happens and if it makes communication difficult, I will appreciate you telling me so and we will try to 'tune in' to one another's language. At the moment I don't know if this is gong to work or not; I'm willing to work out the issues in a rational manner and discuss how we can make it better, but if you decide otherwise I will respect your wishes. Please understand, though, that I need some sort of solution. If you are willing to work things out in the future but just need some time alone I'll understand, and I'll wait. But if you decide it is over, please tell me directly and soon, so I can move on and heal."

All of this sounds good, but the bolded might be worth leaving out. The first bolded could come across, to the ESTJ, as simplifying their complicated feelings, and the second bolded might be overkill. Besides that, you've got it!

... Did I just beat an ESTJ in providing on-topic information? Yay!
Really, I'm very happy and thankful for your comments, even if you just say "that's right" - it reassures me that I can take care of my ESTJ

!

You are doing it right!

About those "rant warnings"... I confess they don't work that well in practice. When I need to rant, I'm usually emotionally riled up enough to forget about the warning... Also, my emotional outbursts tend to surprise even myself.

Aw, man. See, they work pretty much flawlessly for the other side. What a shame.

 

[21%]

Indeed! I was just having a conversation with my ENFJ friend (appropriately enough!), and we were talking about what we would do if we had a big, friendship-threatening fight. He told me that what would work best for him would be if I said something along the lines of "I know I've made mistakes, but I really value our friendship, and it's so important to me that we stay friends..." And I replied by telling him thanks for letting me know that, because saying something like that would be very, very difficult and unnatural for me. My natural response would be to say something like "I'm so sorry, I feel terrible about this -- what happened was -- (insert rationale here) -- and I didn't realize it would offend you. I didn't mean you any harm. Whatever I can do to fix this, I will." But my ENFJ friend told me that if I said that to him, he would take it as "Here are the reasons why I was in the right, and here are the reasons why your feelings are invalid."

Man... I'm great at communicating with him in every other sense, but that made me really NOT look forward to fighting with him. I'm sure it will happen at some point (because it always does, with pretty much every friendship), and it's gonna be tricky.

Exactly! Feelers tend to interpret any type of reasoning as excuses (which sounds kinda bad, actually) Conflicts are emotional, and a lot of the time feelers get way too emotional to listen to their reasons. I do appreciate it when someone tries to 'reason out' an argument, though, because sometimes it can sometimes bring me down from my emotional high. Bonus points if the reasoning is surrounded by a lot of feeling-related words (especially on how you feel). But I can totally imagine it would be totally unnatural for thinkers to do something like this. My dad is a thinker and the only way we end conflicts is by joking our way out

When me and my INFP bf make up after a fight, it's a soppy feeling fest:

"I'm sorry I made you feel that way. It wasn't my intention."
"No, I'm sorry I took it the wrong way. I feel bad for making a big deal out of it"
"No, I'm sorry."
"I'm sorry. Let's not fight anymore."
"I agree. No more fighting."

All of this sounds good, but the bolded might be worth leaving out. The first bolded could come across, to the ESTJ, as simplifying their complicated feelings, and the second bolded might be overkill. Besides that, you've got it!

Thanks so much!

 

[mrcockburn]

What do you think about disowning family?

For example, my mother was so unrepentantly toxic, that I completely disowned her when I turned 18. I did it because I'm happier without her, and I don't agree that I should tolerate or even try to reason with her BS just because I'm one of her hatched eggs.

Do you agree with the traditional stance that no matter what, family must put up with each other and can never COMPLETELY cut each other off. Honor thy mother and father etc etc.

Or do you think that people are entitled to do what makes them happy (eliminate the person, the source of misery, out their lives).

 

[EJCC]

Exactly! Feelers tend to interpret any type of reasoning as excuses (which sounds kinda bad, actually) Conflicts are emotional, and a lot of the time feelers get way too emotional to listen to their reasons. I do appreciate it when someone tries to 'reason out' an argument, though, because sometimes it can sometimes bring me down from my emotional high. Bonus points if the reasoning is surrounded by a lot of feeling-related words (especially on how you feel). But I can totally imagine it would be totally unnatural for thinkers to do something like this. My dad is a thinker and the only way we end conflicts is by joking our way out

Yeah, I'm terrible at using feeling-related words to apologize to someone. For literally my entire childhood (K-8), I avoided in-person apologies like the plague, and would write long and detailed (and sometimes poetic) apology notes instead. There's a certain vulnerability that comes with that kind of talk, and with me (and probably with other ESTJs too), it takes a lot of trust to be able to handle that.

When me and my INFP bf make up after a fight, it's a soppy feeling fest:

"I'm sorry I made you feel that way. It wasn't my intention."
"No, I'm sorry I took it the wrong way. I feel bad for making a big deal out of it"
"No, I'm sorry."
"I'm sorry. Let's not fight anymore."
"I agree. No more fighting."

Wow I had no idea those conversations happened in real life! I've seen them in romantic comedies (usually with best friends making up), but that's about it.

What do you think about disowning family?

For example, my mother was so unrepentantly toxic, that I completely disowned her when I turned 18. I did it because I'm happier without her, and I don't agree that I should tolerate or even try to reason with her BS just because I'm one of her hatched eggs.

Do you agree with the traditional stance that no matter what, family must put up with each other and can never COMPLETELY cut each other off. Honor thy mother and father etc etc.

Or do you think that people are entitled to do what makes them happy (eliminate the person, the source of misery, out their lives).

I think that might be a generational thing. I think ESTJs (and other types) who are older than me might believe in sticking with your family no matter what, but I am not of that generation, so I feel like if there's no good reason for you to stick with your family, and if your family is really that horrible, then I would respect your decision to disown them.

However, it would take some very extreme circumstances for me, personally, to disown a family member. It would also take the approval of the family members that I like. I would argue with them if they disagreed, of course, but if they convinced me, then I'd go with it. Also, in some of the possible extreme circumstances that I can think of, it might be better to stage an intervention, than disown them. But that would only be in some cases.

There are members of my family that I hold an extreme dislike for (and also members of my "church family", and some family friends), but I remain courteous with them because of cost-benefit analysis.

 

[sui generis]

Do you agree with the traditional stance that no matter what, family must put up with each other and can never COMPLETELY cut each other off. Honor thy mother and father etc etc.

Or do you think that people are entitled to do what makes them happy (eliminate the person, the source of misery, out their lives).

"Entitled" isn't even a word I'd use. Like EJCC said, it's a cost-benefit analysis thing. I have a relative whom I have cut out of my life because she adds nothing to my life except crazy and guilt trips, and I don't need that shit. I've got enough of my own crazy, I don't need hers! There's no benefit to having her in my life, and I benefit greatly from not having her in my life. Then again, I'm not the most ~traditional~ of the ESTJs. Also, I'm adopted, so the whole "blood is thicker than water" thing doesn't compute with me, like, at all.

 

[EJCC]

When ESTJs become INFPs...

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48738&p=1598070&viewfull=1#post1598070

Seriously, I got a rep comment from someone right after posting this: "I like your INFP side."

 

[21%]

When ESTJs become INFPs...

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48738&p=1598070&viewfull=1#post1598070

Seriously, I got a rep comment from someone right after posting this: "I like your INFP side."

I knew you were all softies inside