[Traditional Enneagram] Zarathustra's Enneagram Explorations

[OrangeAppled]

Oh, wow.

I wasn't expecting this.

Very cool.

You've always been one of the people whose thoughts on typology I appreciate and respect more than most any other - the seriousness of thought you give these matters is readily apparent - so I'm glad to hear, after years of light proselytization on my part, you, of all people, will be the second person in the online typology community to take up Molina's theory - I feel confident it will be well-placed in your hands.

I saw you mention it some time ago, and perhaps mentioned on another enneagram site, and of course...
I MUST READ ALL THE TYPOLOGY BOOKS!
Well, at least those which are not too fluffy.

Wow

It absolutely amazes me that you saw these same connections

This is the EXACT same way I have come to think of things

Extrinsic - Heart Center - Social Instinct
Intrinsic - Gut Center - Self-Preservation Instinct
Systemic - Head Center - Sexual/Intimacy Instinct

Really makes a case for the mind being the biggest erogenous zone, right?

But yeah, what's really amazing is, I also thought it would be Gut = Sexual and Head = Self-Preservation

But then I came around to the same conclusion as you, that Gut = Self-Preservation and Head = Sexual

Aw thanks.... I think it's the way the book lays it out... I mean, it seems the natural conclusion to me.

Well, here's the one rub:

Molina got 4s and 2s wrong.

Molina theorized that e4 is 4ES and e2 is 2EI

And that is so obviously wrong, I can't help but wonder if he did it wrong on purpose (I've actually been hoping to find his contact for the last five years or so, so I can ask him if that is indeed the case, and I just recently think I finally found it)

Enneagram 4s are just so obviously 4EI, and e2 is so obviously 2ES

So I would treat those profiles in his book accordingly

The overall description is not bad, just the way he explains the motivation that leads to the observable personality.
He suggests 4s are out of touch with their real emotions, curating the appropriate ones that give them status. That's more 2, yeah. BUT, 4s are out of touch with real emotions (at lower levels), and they DO curate, but it's with an eye to what makes them feel significant in comparison with others (i.e. often what makes them different), and that can often lead to being inappropriate and sabotaging status.

Hope you can get into contact with him.....would be interesting

I would just add that the correlations mentioned above between the Instincts (Self-Preservational, Social, Sexual) and the Dimensions of Value (Intrinsic, Extrinsic, Systemic) do seem to exist, but are not perfectly 1:1 or anything, cuz being from one of the Centers or a Manifestation within a Center, of a particular Dimension of Value, does not mean you have to be, or are even any more likely, necessarily, to be of the Instinctual Subtype corresponding to that Dimension of Value.

Iow, while the Three Instincts seem to correspond, to some extent, to the Three Dimensions of Value, one's Instinctual Subtype is independent of the Dimension of Value of one's Center and the Dimension of Value of one's Manifestation within that Center.

That does add an interesting layer, especially for the type 6 given how distinct it's "subtypes" in the three dimensions of value already are... It's like sub-sub types.

 

[KingRequiem]

You still up for this Z ?

 

[Zarathustra]

So what is the problem of 6SS?

Well, first off, it should be noted that you don't even really have to include the 6 in that description - it's essentially vestigial

6 = SS

I'm fine with keeping it, because that's what the community knows it as, and there are even other reasons possibly (related to the Law of 3, Law of 7, et al), but if you want to adopt this line of thinking, it becomes important to really start thinking in terms of these Ss, Es, and Is, as that's where the "math" (related to Balance) comes in

*

It's also important to realize that an S in the first position does not mean the exact same thing as an S in the second position

And same goes for the other letters

7SE =/= 2ES
1IS =/= 5SI
8IE =/= 4EI

These three pairs are like mirrors to each other (note in 'Character & Neurosis' how Naranjo uses a dotted line to connect each of these pairs), but they are still different.

So, how are they different?

Why is SE different than ES?

Well, as we know, and as I've mentioned before, the first letter indicates the Center of Intelligence, and the second letter indicates the Manifestation within that Center.

So, 7SE comes from the Systemic Center, or the Head/Mind/Thinking Center, which is related to Fear, and is the Extrinsic Manifestation within that Center, meaning *takes a gulp* in Reaction to the Concerns of the Systemic Center ("Where am I? What should I do?" and Fear), it turns to the Extrinsic Dimension (the outer world, others, image, status, wealth, success) *takes another gulp* to try to Resolve that Concern.

Why the "gulps"? Because I'm hesitant as to whether this is the perfect construction - I'm not settled on it - but I do keep coming back to it, and I think there's a reason for that.

The 2ES, otoh, comes from the Extrinsic Center, or the Heart/Soul/Image Center, which is related to Shame, and is the Systemic Manifestation within that Center, meaning in Reaction to the Concerns of the Extrinsic Center ("Who am I with?" and Shame), it turns to the Systemic Dimension (the systemic world, god, universals, laws, principles, codes) to try to resolve that Concern.

As such, 7SE will tend to be the more extroverted of the two, while 2ES will tend to be more moralizers.

In a lot of ways, you actually see a type's Manifestation more than its Center. Its almost like the Center is some deeper, core issue, and the attempt to resolve that core issue is what we see manifest.

As such, 7SE, 8IE, and 3EE all manifest as the most extroverted, externally oriented types.

5SI, 4EI, and 9II all manifest as the most introverted, internally oriented types.

And 2ES, 6SS, 1IS all manifest as more ambiverted, with an orientation towards morality, standards, and ethics.

Note: the above three constructions are descriptions of the types, not necessarily all individuals within each type (i.e., some introverts may be of one of the more extroverted manifestations, but, as such, they will likely be more extroverted than other introverts of a more introverted, or even ambiverted manifestation [depending, of course, on other factors {instinctual variant, et al}])

**

So, what does this mean for 6SS?

Well, 6SS, as one of the pure types (i.e., the center of its Center [the others are 9II and 3EE), has the same Value Dimension in both its first and second position, meaning:

6SS comes from the Systemic Center, or the Head/Mind/Thinking Center, which is related to Fear, and is the Systemic Manifestation within that Center, meaning in Reaction to the Concerns of the Systemic Center ("Where am I? What should I do?" and Fear), it turns to the Systemic Dimension (the systemic world, god, universals, laws, principles, codes) to try to Resolve that Concern.

What does this mean?

It means 6SS are too up in their head. They are imbalanced with too much Systemic thinking. They think too much. They think too much in terms of Universal Laws, and Codes, and what is Right and Wrong. They are pure Superego. They have too much of it. Sometimes you just need to put an apple in your mouth, or open a drawer, or have sex with your partner, and not everything has to be according to some Universal Principle.

6SS will probably find this hard to put into practice. As their entire lives are built around such notions. Around being perfect. According to something like the Mind of God (as they understand it).

At least if they are imbalanced.

***

So, how to become more balanced?

Well, their imbalance is in being too Systemic.

They are double Systemic: Systemic-Systemic.

So what do they need to become more balanced?

Hint: there are only two non-Systemic options.

More Intrinsic, and more Extrinsic !!!

****

So, how can they go about becoming more Intrinsic and Extrinsic?

Well, there's a more complicated answer to this question, related to all the types, tritype, et al, but, for the moment being, let's keep it simple, and only talk about the other two types on the Triangle, the other two pure types, which are the two types connected to 6SS through the Lines of Integration and Disintegration.

Let's also just accept the dogma of the lines of integration and disintegration, for the moment being.

Note: It is absolutely worth questioning "why these lines?" (as well as "why these shapes?" and "why these Laws?"), and I have been doing so, in material not yet appropriate to be included here, but, for the time being, let's just presuppose, like most who study this stuff already for some reason unquestioningly do, that there is some Truth to the Enneagram, and all its Laws, Shapes, and Lines.

*****

So, if we grant that there is *something* to the Lines of Integration and Disintegration, then what they tell us is this:

It is good, healthy, and integrating for 6SS to move towards 9II, and then towards 3EE.

It is bad, unhealthy, and disintegrating for 6SS to move towards 3EE, and then towards 9II.

******

In both directions, if the 6SS were to cycle through two types, it would achieve Balance

6SS -> 9II -> 3EE ::: SS + II + EE = SSIIEE

6SS -> 3EE -> 9II ::: SS + EE + II = SSEEII

But, for some reason, the upper formula would be good, healthy, and integrating, whereas the bottom, formula would be bad, unhealthy, and disintegrating.

*******

So, what we find is that Balance is one of the keys to psychological and spiritual health/integration, but Balance in the Right Direction is just as important.

That second point, about the importance of Direction, is sort of akin to Plato's metaphor in The Phaedrus, of the flying white horse and the flying dark horse, one leading our chariot (i.e., soul) up towards the Good, the True, and the Beautiful, while the other leads our soul downwards, to, well, the opposite of the Good, the True, and the Beautiful.

********

So, we might conclude that there is a dual nature to each Value Dimension: a good side, and a bad side.

And the key to growth is to figure out how one is imbalanced, what elements are required for one to achieve balance, and in what way one should incorporate these elements to achieve good, healthy, integrating balance, not bad, unhealthy, disintegrating balance.

*********

Interestingly enough, I believe this just made me realize how this all relates to one of the essential teachings of Ichazo that I always found a bit odd, and that is more-or-less unmentioned in the Enneagram community.

And I think it all relates to the health levels as well...

 

[INerdTP]

Using Molina's notation, I have come up with a theory on (dis)integration. Hope you can follow Ne+Ti!
Take 5SI, for example. The dimensions are valued S>I>E. Pulling from other Enneagram material, this resembles the syn/contra-flow theory for the stackings.
Taking that framework, there would be connections between, on the one hand, 2ES, 5SI and 8IE, and, on the other hand, 1IS, 4EI and 7SE.
You might be thinking "but, what about the central triangle?". That's complicated, and I'll leave it until later.
Now drawing, in a very abstract sense, from MBTI, health appears to be related to strength in the second dimension and unhealth to overuse of the last.
Therefore, 5SI would integrate with increased Intrinsic strength, becoming 8IE. This also removes the fixation on the Systemic. In the same way, 1IS would integrate to 7SE.
The central triangle is more complicated, with differences based on subtype. For central types, both the integration and disintegration points are mirror types (e.g. 4EI and 8IE). Taking 6SS as an example, the integration and disintegration points would be based on subtype. The 6SSi has a slight increase in Intrinsic focus, allowing for integration to 8IE. As Extrinsic is totally absent, the move to 4 is disintegration. For the 6SSe, exactly the opposite is true.
For the triple types, (3EEe, 6SSs and 9IIi), the fourth letter decides. As the sx/sx, so/so and sp/sp stacks do not exist, 4 letters is sufficient.
Instinctual stackings are representable as, for example, 6SSs/i for the sx/sp 6. A formal conversion process can occur, where the stacking can be treated as a separate type, for the purposes of integration/disintegration. The sx/sp stack is SI, formally equivalent to the 5SI. Therefore, it integrates to "8IE", or sp/so, and disintegrates to "2ES", or so/sx. If you recognise the groups (sp->sx->so and sp->so->sx), that is because they are the flows! This is where the flow theory reappears, after being used to base the entire theory on.
Tritype orders can also be converted. For example, the 8IE-2ES-5SI s/e (sx/so) is gut>heart>head, which becomes IES. Dropping the final letter leads to IE, or "8IE", which integrates to "2ES". This leads to the 2ES-5SI-8IE. With the "7SE" stack, the new, integrated stack is "4EI", or so/sp.
Bringing it all together, the 825 sx/so integrates to 258 so/sp.

 

[durgaprasadzone]

thanksfor info...

 

[Zarathustra]

So I have to apologize, [MENTION=32476]KingRequiem[/MENTION], but I wanted to give tou the opportunity to think through what I'd shared already, before I just laid it all out at your doorstep. Truth is, I gave you and anybody reading this thread enough information to come to the conclusions I have reached, to tread the same territory. Enough information was there to lead you to the doorstep, and it would be remiss of me to just throw open the door, and show you everything I have discovered inside. The opportunity to get to that door, throw it open yourself, and see for yourself what's inside is just as important, if not more, than anything I could tell you. Personally experiencing things is often more enrichening than sucking down predigested foods regurgitated into your mouth. And more appetizing too. But you've had the opportunity, now, to get in your own time exploring. Hopefully you have spent it doing so. If not, well, you probably never were going to, so by explicating now, I won't be depriving you of an otherwise extremely valuable experience.

So, your original question was something like "do have any advuce for counterphobic 6s?"

Yes, I do.

And I will actually go into it in this post (i.e., no more false starts).

But before I do - and I swear I will not stop prematurely - I need to preface that, any help I can offer, should be looked thru the lens of only applying on a certain level - namely, the enneagram, and, to a certain extent, the instinctual variants. The advice I'm about to give, some will apply to counterphobic 6s, some to 6s in general, some to 3s and 9s, and some to all types generally.

But I do not know your Jungian type, nor do I know much about your life, where you come from, what you've been through, and what kind of situation you're in, which are all factors just as relevant, if not more, as your enneagram type, so, while you, and others, hopefully, can take *something* useful from what follows, I recommend not getting too fixated on it (as, if there is a purpose to the enneagram, that is essentially antithetical to it), but instead take what works for you, and leave the rest behind (however, I also recommend only doing so after truly engaging with the ideas rigorously, and engaging in serious amd honest self-analysis and reflection, in order to ascertain what really applies, and can be used, and what does not).

So, that being said, let's get started.

First off, let's take note of the basic structure of the pure types (369).

The Direction of Integration
3EE -> 6SS -> 9II

The Direction of Disintegration
3EE <- 6SS <- 9II

That's really the essence of everything we have to work with.

Might seem really simple, but there's actually a ton to unpack there.

Remember, this is all just shorthand notation, kind like one's 4-letter MBTI code, mixed together with a direction that is supposedly good in some way, and a direction that is supposedly bad in some way.

And as we know with one's 4-letter MBTI type, thise four letters are just shorthand notation, that don't really mean that much, in and of themselves - it's the underlying theory - the cognitive functions - that really adds the meat and bones, the substance, to the idea.

Well, similarly, if there is anything for us to learn from the Enneagram, it supposedly comes from the very specific lines, that connect the numbers, that form the shapes, that all derive from numerology, specifically the Law of 3 (369) and the Law of 7 (142857).

(Btw, ftr, these foundations are actually where I've been spending more of my time exploring and thinking lately - it blows me away how little attention is actually paid to these foundations, and how many people just put blind faith in this stuff without any idea where it comes from.)

I also can't overstate how important the Law of 0 (and 1), which gets almost no mention, anywhere, is to all of this - it's basically the entire guiding principle, the entire point of the Enneagram (i.e., liberation).

So, the pure types are sort of a prism through which to understand the Enneagram, on a more basic, simple level.

The hybrid types are more complex, and if one wants to understand the internal dynamics that underpin the enneagram, one really should start from the pure types. They are so much simpler, as their dimension of value is the same for both their center and their manifestation within that center, there are only three of them, as opposed to six, and they lack some of the eccentricities we will get to later when we discuss the hybrid types (there are three types of pairings within the hybrid types, which each yield interesting results when examining them).

Also, type 6 is sort of the pivot point, the center of the three pure types (hence its reputation for being the most universal of all the types, with its fear being almost just general, whereas the other types all seem to have a much more specific quality to their fear), so it is really the most appropriate place to start an analysis of all the types.

6SS moves to 3EE when "disintegrating," and to 9II when "integrating."

What this means is that when 6SS moves in a negative psychological direction, their mind starts taking on the negative characteristics of the double systemic (SS) and the double extrinsic (EE).

Now, the first part if that is obvious and easy, they are 6SS, so obviously when they move in a negative psychological direction, they move towards the negative qualities of SS.

What is less obvious is why they start likewise taking on the negative qualities of type 3EE - we could go into the foundational reasoning as to why this is, and I spend plenty of time ruminating about that question, but that is a whole nother question, which requires an entirely different analysis - for the time being, we simply have to accept on faith that there is something to this Enneagram thing, and that these Lines of Integration and Disintegration mean something.

That will obviously be a frustrating proposition, and no-go, for some folks - and I can understand that - but, having looked into it myself, I can say, there does seem to be a rationale for them embedded in the srructure of the Enneagram itself, and, if you want to go there first, feel free to do so, but you might want to just go with it for the time being, and see if you can find the practical benefits in the understanding, which would then justify taking that deeper dive later.

Sorry, I know that sounds annoying, but there is sort of a leap of faith required when it comes to this stuff.

In my experience, it is worth it.

So, for some reason, when 6SS moves in a negative psychological direction, it not only takes on the negative qualities of SS (paranoia, fear), but also the negative characteristics of EE (an excess of concern about other peoples' opinions about oneself).

See how those two kind of work in conjunction with each other?

The deterioration further continues into the negative characteristics of 9II, as 3II devolves into negative 9II, and this is important to note, but for the time being, we will focus on just the one level of disintegration, while keeping in kind that disintegration is really like a downward spiral, all around the triangle, moving thru the negative characteristics of all three of the pure types, and thus all three dimensions of value.

By contrast, when 6SS moves in a positive psychological direction, it moves towards the positive characteristics of 9II, or the double intrinsic.

Also, note that when 6SS integrates and disintegrates, it moves towards the *double* intrinsic and *double* extrinsic.

This is not by accident, and is nit irrelevant.

It would actually be a very different thing for 6SS to move toward just a single intrinsic type, whether from the Intrinsic Center (8IE, 1IS), or having an Intrinsic Manifestation (4EI, 5SI).

Any one of those points wouid not entail genuine Integration.

For myself, as a 6w5 with 8 in my tritype (683), I can actually see how I try to take some sort of a "shortcut" to integration, especially through my 8-fix (8IE), but that this shortcut, while possibly accomplishing some of what genuine integration would accomplish, in some form, it is, nevertheless, a cheap version, a knockoff, if you will, and does not come with the genuine benefits that true integration would entail.

True integration for a 6SS comes thru going full Intrinsic (9II), in a positive manner, and *then* full extrinsic (3EE), in its positive way.

Trying to accomplish this movement through the addition of the Intrinsic and the Extrinsic, but in too short a measure of each, in too little a dose of both, not deeply enough in either, ends up backfiring.

It simply doesn't work.

I know from experience.

It might feel like it will get the job done.

But it won't.

True equanimity will not be attained.

That is really the most important proof if the Enneagram.

Proof from Experience.

Having learned, conceptually, the dynamics and structures of the Enneagram, I can genuinely say that I can hold its teachings up to my own experience, and accurately state that it reflects my experiences, even when I am going through them, and doing things the wrong way.

Conceptually, I can see what's going wrong.

Which allows me, once that Awareness is attained, to have the option to Accept that this is the case, and then to Act to change how I am moving.

Awareness -> Acceptance -> Action

This is how you grow

I came to the awareness of this some time ago, on my own, and then, some time later, happened to run into this book: Awareness to Action: The Enneagram, Emotional Intelligence, and Change: Robert Tallon, Mario Sikora: 9781589661257: Amazon.com: Books

I have never read it, but I found it pretty special that we bith came to the same understanding, and a pretty specific one, independently.

And just now, after writing this, I came to realize, for the first time, after years of being aware of this formation, that

Awareness -> Acceptance -> Action

actually mirrors

6SS -> 9II -> 3EE

It makes sense that this universal formula would derive starting from the most universal type

 

[Starry]

True integration for a 6SS comes thru going full Intrinsic (9II), in a positive manner, and *then* full extrinsic (3EE), in its positive way.

The math in all of this is very beautiful... But ultimately I have no freakin clue what's being expressed in the above equation. What does it even mean to go Intrinsic-Intrinsic? What does that look like in the wild? What is the experience of it? And if the answer is merely "become more like a healthy 9" <-perhaps...just don't respond as my patience for the enneagram is starting to wear thin. It's heartless really to make people acutely, painfully aware of their deepest fears...and then leave them with only the false promise of being provided enlightened strategies to overcome them.

What I appreciated here with Molina...at least from your telling of it is... I felt like there were more verbs in your sentences which made me feel hopeful but now I see "you need to go full Intrinsic".

Also...would you ask Molina on my behalf how I'm supposed to tell the difference between going Intrinsic-Systemic and Systemic-Intrinsic? I really wanted more from this Zarathustra than merely the same exact feeling I have right before I connect the cables when jumping my car.

 

[deathwarmedup]

It means 6SS are too up in their head. They are imbalanced with too much Systemic thinking. They think too much. They think too much in terms of Universal Laws, and Codes, and what is Right and Wrong. They are pure Superego. They have too much of it.

So does this tie with Naranjo's notion of Accusation as their core fixation? I think Naranjo's a good read but a somewhat grandiose abstractionist; he has noticeably little to say in C&N about self-help recommendations.

I liked Gurdjieffs' formulation - adopted by R&H - of a "type" being defined by the way in which each center erroneously draws energy from the others.

He said that "anxiety arises from the misuse of the intellectual center". The emotional center saturates the intellectual center in 6, and the gut is isolated. I've seen this in the results of my meditation practice as the rational part of my brain is less influenced by the emotional center resulting in less emotionally wasteful ruminating. Meditation severs the links between the frontal lobes and the amygdala. Additionally it also grounds you in your body.

I've read all your posts here and enjoyed them. I can anecdotally confirm the 6-3-9 disintegration from my own experience. But I can also confirm, for example, R&H's conceptualisation of a 6's root fear, and further everyday interpretations of the benefits of a movement to 9. I don't see any one modern theorist (from G onwards) hitting the bull - or rather the elephant - between the eyes; they're all blindfolded and all think they have something conclusive to say - whether they're feeling the trunk, the flanks, the tail....


Regards.

 

[Zarathustra]

So does this tie with Naranjo's notion of Accusation as their core fixation?

Tbh, it's been a while since I've read Naranjo's description of 6s, and I don't specifically recall that detail, but it does fit the bill, as, inherent to an accusation, is a belief in right and wrong, and that a wrong has been done. It is inherently tied up with the superego.

I think Naranjo's a good read but a somewhat grandiose abstractionist; he has noticeably little to say in C&N about self-help recommendations.

Yeah, I agree. And considering his whole goal is basically to make self-therapy availabke for all, it is a bit odd. But I think it might be tied up in the gestalt therapy of Fritz Perls, who seems to have been a primary influence on him, and one of his most important teachers. Iirc, that style of therapy is particularly harsh, and the main aim is for the participants to come to realize things about themselves. In my framework above, it isnheavy on creating the awareness, and perhaps the acceptance, but not so enlightening on the action. Hopefully, after some time, this thread will provide some of the needed insight into what to do. That, imo, is one of the very real benefits of Molina's addition to the theory. The "math" grounds what are otherwise seemingly randomish profiles. It's like a skeleton. And without it, the profiles are just a pile of meat and organs. Seemingly with some relationship to this shape, but why exactly, who knows. Molina's addition gives the theory structure. And that structure, properly studied, offers insight into how to act (along with greater awareness, and thus the opportunity for acceptance).

I liked Gurdjieffs' formulation - adopted by R&H - of a "type" being defined by the way in which each center erroneously draws energy from the others.

That's an interesting formulation. And I can dig it. But it's a bit generalish, imo. Again, it benefits from Molina's addition. Like, is the "erroneous drawing from" referring to each type's manifestation (i.e., the second letter)? Or the lines (especially of disintegration), and the types they point to? See, Molina allows us to discuss these topics in much more specific, concrete, quasi-mathematical terms. It takes a lot of the handwaviness out of it, and allows us to have a more detailed, structured analysis and conversation.

He said that "anxiety arises from the misuse of the intellectual center". The emotional center saturates the intellectual center in 6, and the gut is isolated. I've seen this in the results of my meditation practice as the rational part of my brain is less influenced by the emotional center resulting in less emotionally wasteful ruminating. Meditation severs the links between the frontal lobes and the amygdala. Additionally it also grounds you in your body.

Yes. I recognize, agree with, and appreciate everything you just said there.

I've read all your posts here and enjoyed them.

Great. Reading what you've written, it's clear you know your stuff. Your contributions to this thread would be very welcomed.

I can anecdotally confirm the 6-3-9 disintegration from my own experience. But I can also confirm, for example, R&H's conceptualisation of a 6's root fear, and further everyday interpretations of the benefits of a movement to 9. I don't see any one modern theorist (from G onwards) hitting the bull - or rather the elephant - between the eyes; they're all blindfolded and all think they have something conclusive to say - whether they're feeling the trunk, the flanks, the tail....

Yeah, I agree with all of this. I think I said at one point that look at some of that stuff (R&H root fear of 6) as true, but just not useful enough. It's helpful on a "macro" level, but not quite enough on a "micro" level. There's definitely truth to it, though, along with the other things you mentioned. I especially like what you said about beimg able to confirm the direction of disintegration for 6s, from your own personal experience. That's really where a meditation practice, and things of that ilk are important. Being able to recognize these subtle inner mechanisms, to develop that awareness, is of utmost importance. I have a half-written post (much longer than this one), in response to someone above, titled "Energy Manipulation, Yoga & Chakras." I've had it in mind for a long time, but their post gave me occasion to enter into it. I'm guessing you're aware of Ichazo's psychocalisthenics?

Regards.

 

[deathwarmedup]

Hi Zarathustra, About the Gurdjieffian formulation (I think it was in ISOM, but maybe also in Ouspensky's Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution). I imagine it would relate to the lines of disintegration. R&H would have adopted it even before they adopted the instinctual variants theory so i can't see it relating much to the manifestation through "the second letter" or anything like that. Each centre should do it's own job, but fails and recruits energy from neighbouring centres in order to do it. In my fuzzy recollection, the combination of the order in which each centre appears and the order in which each draws energy from the others makes for a "type". So each centre's efforts are diluted. A 5 overexpresses intellect, which without Gut intuition leads to ineffective conceptualistion. A 6 suppresses intellect, which when suffused with emotion, leads to anxiety and a need for guidance. In both cases, the types fall progressively short of their practical potential as they slide down the DOI line. (Double check this in Ouspensky's work, because I don't like to pretend to be any authority and I'm bad with details.)

On Ichazo, I've had a little exposure to his stuff via posts on another forum (which the poster was obliged to remove on threat of action). I found Ichazo too much of a deviation from the popular understanding I was already working with and never got much into it. (- as with a meditation practice, i suspect people are better working with something that roughly works for them and sticking with it instead of hopping around -- just my 2 cents as a very amateur practitioner).

 

[Zarathustra]

Hi Zarathustra, About the Gurdjieffian formulation (I think it was in ISOM, but maybe also in Ouspensky's Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution). I imagine it would relate to the lines of disintegration. R&H would have adopted it even before they adopted the instinctual variants theory so i can't see it relating much to the manifestation through "the second letter" or anything like that. Each centre should do it's own job, but fails and recruits energy from neighbouring centres in order to do it. In my fuzzy recollection, the combination of the order in which each centre appears and the order in which each draws energy from the others makes for a "type". So each centre's efforts are diluted.

Well see, that last part there, in bold, sounds a lot like the "first letter" and "second letter" (obviously, these letters are just notation, but they symbolize something very real, at least theoretically), and I would be lying if I were to say my formulation wasn't a bit of a trick question, because the lines of integration and disintegration are inherently tied in with the "first letter" and "second letter" of each type.

Look at the hybrid types, for example. For these six types, their first letter is always different than their second letter. Meaning they come from one center, but then "draw energy from" a different center as their manifestation (i.e., in response to the concern of their center). Then, whatever their two letter combination is - 5SI, for example - their point of integration is always a type whose manifestation is the letter not included in their two letter code - i.e., for 5SI, it is 8IE. In words, 5SI has the underlying Concerns of the Head Center (i.e., Fear, as well as everything else I listed above relating to the Systemic [rationality, universals, law, codes, ethics, morals, superego, saatva, etc] along with 6SS and 7SE), and then responds to those Concerns by "drawing energy from" the Gut Center (i.e., the Intrinsic Center).

5SI is also another telling example because its point of disintegration is actually within its center (a quality only shared by one other type, 4EI).

So in order to be drawing energy from another Center inappropriately, their must be something to type 7 that is "of another center" - which there is, 7SE.

What this means for type 5SI, interestingly enough (and this is a distinction, once again, held only by it and 4EI), is that the energy it is missing (in 5SI's case: the Extrinsic [in 4EI's case, it is, by contrast, the Systemic) is in the Manifestation point of bith the type it integrates into (8IE) as well as the type it disintegrates into (7SE).

This is the kind of more rigorous analysis I am talking about, which the addition of Molina's framework enables us to engage in. Without Molina's framework, the level of rigor feels literally like just feeling around in a pile of skin, meat and organs, pulling something out, and taking a guess as to how the thing you've pulled out relates to some other thing you pulled out earlier.

A 5 overexpresses intellect, which without Gut intuition leads to ineffective conceptualistion. A 6 suppresses intellect, which when suffused with emotion, leads to anxiety and a need for guidance. In both cases, the types fall progressively short of their practical potential as they slide down the DOI line. (Double check this in Ouspensky's work, because I don't like to pretend to be any authority and I'm bad with details.)

See, I very much disagree with these characterizations (and I understand they are "traditional", or prominent, or common, what have you). To me, these are like what Solitary Walker called "folk typology", but with regards to the Enneagram, as opposed to Jungian typology/MBTI. You get these kinds of descriptions when someone is stumbling around with that skin, meat and organ pile, pulls something out, makes a declaration about what they think they've found, and then, for some reason, it sticks.

See, type 5 is not an overexpression of intellect, without gut intuition. 5SI is when intellect *combines* with the gut. It is when the Concerns of the Head Center (which *is* the intellectual center - the mind) are then Responded to by going inwards (i.e., to the Intrinsic Center, or gut).

Type 5SI's deficiency, then, is a lack of the Extrinsic Dimension (i.e., the Heart), not the Intrinsic Dimension (the Gut). **

It then gains that dimension by moving towards 8IE, through its Gut Manifestation (5SI), even more deeply into its gut, straight to the Intrinsic Center (8IE), and then manifesting outwardly to/through/via the Extrinsic (8IE).

** to be fair, though, 5SI does pick up more Gut energy, as it moves to 8IE, so it isn't entirely fair to say it's not lacking in gut, but, it is definitely *more* lacking in heart than gut

Also, just to finish off what I said before about 5SI having integration and disintegration points whose Manifestation points are the same (8IE and 7SE): what this offers us is this realization that the first letter (i.e., the Center) matters when it comes to integration and disintegration - 5SI -> 8IE is good, but 5SI -> 7SE is bad.

I have some ideas as to why, what the difference is, and what this all means, but I'm willing to wager this is enough deep analysis for now.

On Ichazo, I've had a little exposure to his stuff via posts on another forum (which the poster was obliged to remove on threat of action). I found Ichazo too much of a deviation from the popular understanding I was already working with and never got much into it.

Lol. That's hilarious. Yeah, Ichazo seems very determined to maintain an iron grip on his cult materials. Not a healthy mentality if you ask me. I wonder if he's a 5? It would make sense...

I mainly asked because of what you said about meditation, and getting into the body. You can google and pick up m a copy of his original Psychocalisthenics manual from the 70s.

It's basically a series of exercises - a la hatha, kundalini, and raja yoga - to do precisely what you said.

I believe the ultimate goal is correct: to get us accessing our energies from all the Centers in a more balanced, freer, mindful way.

(- as with a meditation practice, i suspect people are better working with something that roughly works for them and sticking with it instead of hopping around -- just my 2 cents as a very amateur practitioner).

The Huston Smith line of thought?

You said before you're very bad with details, which is not very ISTJ, but if your MBTI is indeed true, then this would also be a fitting philosophy.

I think it makes sense and all, but my perspective is: how do I know what works, let alone what works optimally, unless I try different things.

 

[Zarathustra]

Btw, does the above analysis make sense to anybody?

Like, I'm trying to get a sense of how these analyses come across via text.

Cuz even when I read the above, from like, strictly a reader's perspective, it is easy even for me to miss the entirety of what, as the writer, I know I was trying to communicate.

So you all know, the disconnect is very difficult to overcome when communicating via text - because I know what I'm seeing inside my mind, and the image is very dynamic, and involves the enneagram symbol, and the letters and numbers, and the lines of integration and disintegration, and certain points becoming highlighted, and in focus, and bolded, certain letters and numbers becoming accentuated, and trying to communicate everything that is going on with this shifting image, only via text... I just imagine the signal must be losing a lot of its fidelity.

Like, if I could draw this all while talking, and make all the connecting references and points and asides, I imagine it would be a lot more effective.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Btw, does the above analysis make sense to anybody?

Like, I'm trying to get a sense of how these analyses come across via text.

Cuz even when I read the above, from like, strictly a reader's perspective, it is easy even for me to miss the entirety of what, as the writer, I know I was trying to communicate.

So you all know, the disconnect is very difficult to overcome when communicating via text - because I know what I'm seeing inside my mind, and the image is very dynamic, and involves the enneagram symbol, and the letters and numbers, and the lines of integration and disintegration, and certain point becoming highlighted, and in focus, and bolded, and certain letters and number becoming accentuated, and trying to communicate everything that is going on with this shifting image, only via text... I just imagine the signal must be losing a lot of its fidelity.

Like, if I could draw this all while talking, and make all the connecting references and points and asides, I imagine it would be a lot more effective.

Yes, it makes sense. I don't have anything to add, really, but I like where you are going and there is a great beauty in what you are sharing.

Please continue to share your insights.