Why should I believe the Enneagram is accurate?

[cascadeco]

I do not know enough about the enneagram system to know how 'arbitrary' it might really be, but in my mind any of the personality systems (including mbti) could be viewed as equally arbitrary.

For me personally, enneagram speaks to me in many ways more than mbti does. I'm very much one to go to underlying motivations in human behavior and personality - what drives each of us to do things, and why. I also think the disintegration/integration concepts are valid, and they speak more to the reality of personality - just that we aren't in one state of emotional/mental health all of the time - we might fluctuate. Personality isn't [usually] stagnant. Mbti doesn't account for that as easily. At least on the surface. I had 'a ha' moments months back when I was reading enneagram type 4 (which is probably my best fit) - but mbti descriptions often have been sources of confusion for me, which is why for a while I was really unsure what my type actually was.

And really..with mbti...the majority of people DON'T know the theory itself and have no idea about all of the cognitive functions, 'shadow' theory, and all of that. And....if your average person just takes the mbti test and doesn't dig very deeply, he's probably gonna be misinformed. It's only us weird ones who are really into it and are on a web forum about it! And we're definitely the minority!! So is mbti then even practical if very few people REALLY know much about it?? (and I'm not saying I know much - there are people on this site who know far more than I do about mbti!)

 

[Xander]

The thing which I found, in relation to the whole "which system works" etc, is that no system is complete and each was designed with a different perspective, aim and final point. Like any system you need to look at why it was designed before you can properly critique it's success.

Anyhow I've used quite a few psych tests and I think that the combined results paint quite a good picture but individually none of them nail it. I mean how many people come to question why I'm an INTP? They should see my Firo-B scores, then they'd worry. Then I could show them my father's, for an ENTJ he defeats most commonly held beliefs about them.

No system can really fully encompass the human psyche and still be useful. Each is it's own handbook to a different facet of personality. Pick one or pick and mix, it doesn't matter as long as you realise that any system which attempts to abbreviate a persons being into something which takes less than a week to say is going to be missing out large swathes of information. Hell you can't even necessarily get all of the information you'd need for such a complete write up... well as far as I know.

Anyhow no system has been proved as accurate to the satisfaction of the rules lawyers so why not believe in the enneagram and see if it gets you anywhere? If it doesn't then discard it alongside the Freudian interpretations of your dreams where you play with a cigar for hours.

 

[INTJMom]

The thing which I found, in relation to the whole "which system works" etc, is that no system is complete and each was designed with a different perspective, aim and final point. Like any system you need to look at why it was designed before you can properly critique it's success.

Anyhow I've used quite a few psych tests and I think that the combined results paint quite a good picture but individually none of them nail it. I mean how many people come to question why I'm an INTP? They should see my Firo-B scores, then they'd worry. Then I could show them my father's, for an ENTJ he defeats most commonly held beliefs about them.

No system can really fully encompass the human psyche and still be useful. Each is it's own handbook to a different facet of personality. Pick one or pick and mix, it doesn't matter as long as you realise that any system which attempts to abbreviate a persons being into something which takes less than a week to say is going to be missing out large swathes of information. Hell you can't even necessarily get all of the information you'd need for such a complete write up... well as far as I know.

Anyhow no system has been proved as accurate to the satisfaction of the rules lawyers so why not believe in the enneagram and see if it gets you anywhere? If it doesn't then discard it alongside the Freudian interpretations of your dreams where you play with a cigar for hours.

So there haven't been any studies done, or someone who has used the system with a couple of thousand people with very good results.

 

[INTJMom]

I do not know enough about the enneagram system to know how 'arbitrary' it might really be, but in my mind any of the personality systems (including mbti) could be viewed as equally arbitrary.

For me personally, enneagram speaks to me in many ways more than mbti does. I'm very much one to go to underlying motivations in human behavior and personality - what drives each of us to do things, and why. I also think the disintegration/integration concepts are valid, and they speak more to the reality of personality - just that we aren't in one state of emotional/mental health all of the time - we might fluctuate. Personality isn't [usually] stagnant. Mbti doesn't account for that as easily. At least on the surface. I had 'a ha' moments months back when I was reading enneagram type 4 (which is probably my best fit) - but mbti descriptions often have been sources of confusion for me, which is why for a while I was really unsure what my type actually was.

And really..with mbti...the majority of people DON'T know the theory itself and have no idea about all of the cognitive functions, 'shadow' theory, and all of that. And....if your average person just takes the mbti test and doesn't dig very deeply, he's probably gonna be misinformed. It's only us weird ones who are really into it and are on a web forum about it! And we're definitely the minority!! So is mbti then even practical if very few people REALLY know much about it?? (and I'm not saying I know much - there are people on this site who know far more than I do about mbti!)

I very frequently get insights into people's motivations and I am usually correct in those instances where I can verify motivations, so I think that I would probably enjoy the Enne.

 

[INTJMom]

2*9 = 18 (this is assuming you either have one wing or the other)
....

So you have to have a wing? You can't just be straight up?

 

[INTJMom]

Hurley states wings only apply to indicate your support center, which is the center closest to your preferred center. The centers are Thinking (Types 5, 6, 7), Doing (Types 8, 9, 1), and Feeling (Types 2, 3, 4). Types 3, 6, and 9 do not have wings at all. So an example would be a Type 4 could only have 5 as a wing, since the Feeling center is preferred and supported by the Thinking center. The Doing center is repressed for the Type 4.

According to the theory, you are only one Enneagram type.

They left out the Be-ing types, I fear.
I'm thinking of Keirsey's NF types who are driven by the need to BE, who are engaged in the search for self, whose "purpose in life is to have a purpose in life", who desires to be unique and significant.

If I recall, I think that may coincide with one or two of the enneagram points.

Thanks for that concise explanation. I love it when things get boiled down to where I can memorize them.

 

[Ezra]

MBTI is function based and creates its 16 archetypes from functions, and the functions together supposedly cover "all cases." (It can still be debated whether this is accurate, but at least the logic is followable.)

The Enneagram is essentially a collection of nine archetype seemingly driven more by the diagram than vice versa. There is no inherent proof that there are only nine archetypes of human beings (and the Threes can sometimes become a catch-all since they are defined as not being defined, in a sense).

RUBBISHHHH...

Read up on Threes. Catch all my arse.

I don't think it was developed by Muslims, but by some people who were into that New Age spirituality/chakra-type stuff or something. That was what I heard.

Then you heard horribly, horribly wrong.

Socionics is most consistent, both logically and scientifically. It is far superior to MBTT. The Enneagram's goal is totally different. It offers self-development. Socionics offers a theory for finding your best match in relationships.

What does MBTT offer?


...


?

 

[INTJMom]

...
What does MBTT offer?
...

It offers understanding of why other people don't see things the way you do, don't want to do what you want to do, and why they act differently from you.

MBTT has helped me greatly in understanding my husband and my children and getting along with them better.

It also is the most widely used theory right now. I can't tell you how nice it is when I ask someone if they know what their MB type is, and they tell me yes. I instantly gain insight in how to successfully communicate with and conduct business with this person.

I can't tell you how frustrated I used to be because I wanted to plan something 3 months ahead of time, and my husband wanted to "cross that bridge when we come to it"! But after learning MBTT, I realized that my husband wanted to wait, not because he hates me and he thinks my ideas are stupid, but because he prefers to leave his options open. That gave me something to work with.

My middle son is academically, the total opposite of me. If I had not known MBTT, I might have tried to force him into a mold that he would not have been able to tolerate and could have driven him to severe rebellion. Barron and Tieger's books especially, gave me valuable insight into my son so that I could appreciate him for who he is instead of trying to make him who I wanted him to be.

Finally for my own peace of mind and my own self-acceptance, MBTT has been the most helpful to me. I was so relieved to discover there were other people in the world like me and that there wasn't anything "wrong" with me because of the way I am. I'm only different, not defective.

Just off the top of my head, those are some reasons why I value MBTT, but I do have to give credit to Barron and Tieger for making the information practical.

 

[INTJMom]

RUBBISHHHH...

Read up on Threes. Catch all ...

Just for the record, there are some authors who do see 3s as the catch all - Don Richard Riso and Russ Hudson, Walter Geldart.

And a couple who see 6 as the catch all - Renee Baron and Elizabeth Wagele.

Generally speaking threes are usually considered EN-Js.
Type Correlations

 

[INTJMom]

... and have found Hurley and Dobson to be the most clear description of the Enneagram.
...

Which of their books do you recommend?

 

[Xander]

So there haven't been any studies done, or someone who has used the system with a couple of thousand people with very good results.

Who did the testing?
Where they trying to prove or disprove the theories?
Who did they test?
When was the test done?
Were any enticements offered to get people to do the tests?

Freud would tell you that his work was validated, others would point out that he and his patients skewed the results.

Which are you looking at?

'Why' is the most important question not 'what'

Besides in all your reading of the enneagram does it not seem more competent than say palmistry? I bet if you had your palm read it would give you some insight if only from setting your mind off down a new or rarely travelled path. What more can you ask of a system of analysis?

 

[INTJMom]

My motivation for asking is that I am always very careful when selecting my teachers.
I have to trust the teacher before I can trust what they are teaching me.
Since the enneagram does not mesh into what I already understand about the world, that makes me question it.
Others may not have this problem, but I do.

Now that I understand that all of the systems are opinion based and not fact based, and that Enne. is a describer of motivations, it makes me less reluctant to consider what it teaches.

 

[INTJMom]

...
'Why' is the most important question not 'what'
...

I did ask why.

 

[Xander]

I did ask why.

Are we both referring to this test of the system where they asked lots of people or have we diverged?

Noting your previous post, it's interesting that you select your teachers. Personally it's not something I've thought a lot about.. I guess I do to an extent but only after finding out some of what they teach.

What was it about your initial contact with the enneagram which made you distrustful of it?

 

[INTJMom]

Are we both referring to this test of the system where they asked lots of people or have we diverged?

I am unaware of any test of the system, but since that would go toward answering my OP, I would be glad to read it.

Noting your previous post, it's interesting that you select your teachers. Personally it's not something I've thought a lot about.. I guess I do to an extent but only after finding out some of what they teach.

What was it about your initial contact with the enneagram which made you distrustful of it?

...
Since the enneagram does not mesh into what I already understand about the world, that makes me question it.
...