Why Men Kill themselves

[SpankyMcFly]

Men are just as much (in fact even more so) to blame as women for the issue, most of it stemming from lack of understanding.

Totally agree.

 

[Rasofy]

Someone thread ban Lark please

 

[SpankyMcFly]

I think if people are committing suicide there's bound to be a bunch of reasons, probably mainly personal, probably about temporary troubles or chemical imbalances in the brain and body

Excellent. Yes of course there are many reasons. I noticed you didn't mention the major 'cause/link' that has been researched. Perhaps you've never been married. Are you? Been divorced? Lets talk about research on the matter.

"One recent study by the National Institute for Healthcare Research in Rockville, MD (2001) indicates that divorced people are three times as likely to commit suicide as people who are married. The Institute says that divorce now ranks as the number one factor linked with suicide rates in major U.S. cities, ranking above all other physical, financial, and psychological factors.

A study of 13 European countries by the regional European office of the World Health Organization found that divorce was the only factor linked with suicide in every one of the 13 countries. The study showed that factors like poverty, unemployment, and disability were associated with divorce in some of the countries but that disruption of the family was the only factor linked with divorce in all 13."

Here is another study from the Journal of Epidemiology and community health.

"These results dramatise the terrible consequences of being a divorced man in America, and lead to the question: why are divorced men killing themselves? Some analysts argue that the research community has ignored a plausible explanation for the excess suicide risks experienced by divorced men. As Perrault3 and Farrell4 observe, while social, psychological, and even personal problems facing women are readily denounced, societal institutions tend to ignore or minimise male problems as evident in suicide statistics. For instance, in many jurisdictions in the US there seems to be an implicit assumption that the bond between a woman and her children is stronger than that between a man and his children.5 As a consequence, in a divorce settlement, custody of children is more likely to be given to the wife. In the end, the father loses not only his marriage, but his children. The result may be anger at the court system especially in situations wherein the husband feels betrayed because it was the wife that initiated the divorce, or because the courts virtually gave away everything that was previously owned by the ex-husband or the now defunct household to the former wife. Events could spiral into resentment (toward the spouse and “the system”), bitterness, anxiety, and depression, reduced self esteem, and a sense of “life not worth living”. As depression and poor mental health are known markers of suicide risk, it may well be that one of the fundamental reasons for the observed association between divorce and suicide in men is the impact of post divorce (court sanctioned) “arrangements”. Clearly this is an issue that needs further investigation."


Divorce and suicide risk -- Kposowa 57 (12): 993 -- Journal of Epidemiology & Community Health

Hmmm, where did these divorce laws come from? Who advocated and supported them? Hmmm.

Lark, do you have any evidence or links on the matter (male suicide) that you want to share?

 

[Rasofy]

That's what I meant when I said mods operate on a liberal bias; leftists are totally free to derail threads with misogyny/racism/facism accusations, no matter how idiotic these accusations are

 

[Ivy]

Or maybe it's because divorce is fucking hard and sad, and we're not raising boys to know what to do with feelings of sadness or to lean on others when things get hard.

 

[Ivy]

That's what I meant when I said mods operate on a liberal bias; leftists are totally free to derail threads with misogyny/racism/facism accusations, no matter how idiotic these accusations are

You might not like them but Lark's posts are no more off-topic in this thread than yours or Xann's or Spanky's, and in fact THIS POST RIGHT HERE^ is the most off-topic of the thread, but I'm not threadbanning you, am I? (Actually I'm not doing any mod actions at all because I'm actively posting in the thread and it would be a conflict of interests, IMO.)

 

[SpankyMcFly]

Alright, well, when Durkheim analysed suicide he found it was men who were mainly the victims too, because men suffered more from identifying with the fortunes of their nation or society because they were not excluded from public life as women were, how you like those apples?

You're going to make us google this and then sift through it to make us do all the work aren't you? vs. supplying a link so we can assess it for ourselves.

My point is, and remains, this is a BS article by some woman hater with a grudge against feminism who's trying to hang male suicide on both of those things

Do you even know the authors name and who he works for and what he has done? I'm going to guess no, due to your statement. Here, assess for yourself.

https://mosaicscience.com/people/willstorr

Will Storr | Homepage

"Will Storr is a novelist and long-form journalist. His stories appear in broadsheet newspaper supplements such as the Observer Magazine, Seven magazine (Sunday Telegraph), the Sunday Times Magazine and Guardian Weekend. He is a contributing editor at Esquire magazine and GQ Australia. His award-winning radio documentaries have been broadcast on BBC World.

He has reported from the refugee camps of Africa, the war-torn departments of rural Colombia and the remote Aboriginal communities of Australia.

He has been named New Journalist of the Year and Feature Writer of the Year, and has won a National Press Club award for excellence. In 2010, his investigation into the kangaroo meat industry won the Australian Food Media award for Best Investigative Journalism and, in 2012, he was presented with the One World Press award and the Amnesty International award for his work for the Observer on sexual violence against men. In 2013, his BBC radio series An Unspeakable Act won the AIB award for best investigative documentary.

He is also a widely published photographer whose portraits of Lord’s Resistance Army survivors have been the subject of an exhibition at the Coin Street Gallery in London’s Oxo Tower."

Do you have any evidence to support your conclusion/statement about his woman/feminist hating? Do you fact check?

and I think that not something that anyone should give the time of day, unfortunately there's likely to be just enough men who're likely to hear it out because misogyny is easy, doesnt demand anything of the individual and excuses a hell of a lot of learned helplessness and excuses.

Really? My patience in trying to understand you and these kinds of statements wears thin. You being triggered and coming to vomit has triggered me!

 

[Ivy]

Seriously. I'm begging you ALL, as a member not as a mod, just fucking stop ruining this thread that had potential and that some of us are trying to have a grownup discussion in.

 

[Rasofy]

Meh, whatever

 

[SpankyMcFly]

Gender politics are part and parcel of the underlying culture, perhaps even are the central and signifying theme of culture. Even in times before gender politics as they're conceived in our modern age were not enforced by official law they were for all intents and purposes still politics in a sense because of the strength and extent that gender roles were allowed to be enforced by majority consent and rule. Without the influence of feminism, would Australians have agreed to outlaw firearms? I'm not so certain.

Eggcellent, we'll have to 'argue' what culture is and where forth ideology comes from some day. We disagree it appears

 

[1487610420]

bcuz wominz don't put out enuff

 

[SpankyMcFly]

Or maybe it's because divorce is fucking hard and sad, and we're not raising boys to know what to do with feelings of sadness or to lean on others when things get hard.

Did you know that male babies are more emotionally expressive than female babies? Here is an article that discusses the matter (The Daily Mail, feminist friendly) ~ Big boys don't cry BUT deep down they're more emotional than women | Daily Mail Online

Unfortunately for those male babies these differences are conditioned out of them (self succoring, which baby gets their needs met more often and by how much, etc.) by the time they are 6 months and males vs. females become on par. "We" do this to them, "we" want stoic men. Check into maternal gate keeping, male disposability for starters to better understand 'why'. This is the lead scientist that they are referring to Dr David Lewis | Renowned Psychologist | Best Selling Author | Father of Neuromarketing | Award Winning Broadcaster | Acclaimed Conference Speaker |

 

[Ivy]

Did you know that male babies are more emotionally expressive than female babies? Here is an article that discusses the matter (The Daily Mail, feminist friendly) ~ Big boys don't cry BUT deep down they're more emotional than women | Daily Mail Online

Unfortunately for those male babies these differences are conditioned out of them (self succoring, which baby gets their needs met more often and by how much, etc.) by the time they are 6 months and males vs. females become on par. "We" do this to them, "we" want stoic men. Check into maternal gate keeping, male disposability for starters to better understand 'why'. This is the lead scientist that they are referring to Dr David Lewis | Renowned Psychologist | Best Selling Author | Father of Neuromarketing | Award Winning Broadcaster | Acclaimed Conference Speaker |

It looks like maybe you didn't read my earlier post where I highlighted quotes from an article that said PRETTY MUCH THE EXACT SAME THING. I guess you were too busy responding to more inflammatory/partisan posts.

 

[highlander]

Men are not human beings, they are human 'doings'. Men lack the intrinsic value that women have due to women being the limiting factor in reproduction (uterus + 9 mo.) and therefore have to 'do' something to acquire value via the roles they pursue, father, fireman, provider, artist, poet etc. This makes male identity/ego constructs very fragile/sensitive to criticism from others since it is based on others valuations of their efforts and hence susceptible to manipulation/influence. Society as a whole has benefited from this arrangement (I use the term loosely as there is no overlord calling the shots) while the individual... not so much. One look at homelessness by gender bears out what happens when men 'fail' at the roles society deems appropriate.

I agree with that statement. Despite many people who don't espouse these values at least intellectually if nothing else, men in society, as a whole, are often valued based on the power and influence they wield. I guess it's probably always been that way. It's why a male's identity is often connected to their career.

I think if people are committing suicide there's bound to be a bunch of reasons, probably mainly personal, probably about temporary troubles or chemical imbalances in the brain and body, blaming it on structural injustice against men perpetrated by women and feminism is BS.

It is not people in general committing suicide who are being discussed in the article, it is about men, who commit it far more frequently than women do, and in my opinion, the points the article brings up are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the reasons for it. Temporary troubles and chemical imbalances have their own root causes as well, don't they? Fairly certain there are a ton of studies on how lack of social acceptance and connections cause depression and a host of other problems which relate back to the points the article is making.

I can speak to the one person I knew well who committed suicide. He was married with two kids and very successful in his career. He had recently moved into a big and fancy house and seemed to have a very happy life from the outside. He was a very good father. Then he lost his job. Unfortunately for a variety of reasons, he did not end up getting another one. First he lost his house. Then he lost his wife - who had always been somewhat materialistic. Then he lost his family. Then he ran into serious money problems. In the end, I guess he saw no way out. He died of carbon monoxide poisoning in his garage. It was probably a 10 year period between when he lost his job and when he committed suicide.

It is a strange case in one way because he is a guy who always had a lot going for him - smart, good looking, hard working, funny, a leader, and a reliable and trusted friend to many. He went to church every week. He is someone who always seemed to have his shit together. I believe he must have suffered from depression though he never told me that. I don't know if he told any of his friends. Circumstances no doubt played a part in fueling that depression. Nobody knew how much he was struggling and it took everyone by surprise. There is a part of me who will always blame his wife for not sticking with him and supporting him - helping him get out of the rut he put himself in - which I believe was very much self imposed. Of course, I will never know how hard she tried, what she did to try and help him and you never know all that is going on in someone's personal life. All I know is that they divorced within a couple years of him losing his job. She said she "couldn't live that way" - in a rented house, etc. She left when they lost the house. It "was all his fault" and she told him "you said we were going to be rich".

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

This thread is a good example of why Men's Rights and Women's Right's activists should be on the same side rather than treating one another as enemies.

#1MoreWayTheUpper1PercentKeepsUsDownAndOutOfPower


[MENTION=8584]SpankyMcFly[/MENTION], I will reply to your queries later, after work, if time permits.
[MENTION=2]Ivy[/MENTION], sorry this one got shitted up. I like you and you're proof that, despite what Karen Straughan said, #NAFALT

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

bcuz wominz don't put out enuff

Do you have anything interesting to contribute to the discussion?

 

[SpankyMcFly]

It looks like maybe you didn't read my earlier post where I highlighted quotes from an article that said PRETTY MUCH THE EXACT SAME THING. I guess you were too busy responding to more inflammatory/partisan posts.

That's incorrect. The article discussed "Toxic masculinity" (gotta love that lil gem in a thread about male suicide, "guys, you're toxic") and how 'we' raise boys.

What it didn't discuss, because the research hadn't been done yet is how boys are more emotional from birth then females. I know, I know, gender is a construct. Setting that argument aside, my greater point was to entice you to do your own research into the matter, from a different perspective, i.e. the ones I suggested vs. Salon. Which btw, is why I also noted that The Daily Mail is feminist friendly, since you used Salon. That and you self label as such.

 

[Ivy]

^Well, that's bullshit. "Toxic masculinity" is IN NO WAY saying "guys, you're toxic." That is not what toxic masculinity is- it is the EXPECTATIONS we put on men, from birth, to be stoic, strong, unemotional, and superhuman. Which you would know if you had read beyond the title of the article I posted.

 

[SpankyMcFly]

^Well, that's bullshit. "Toxic masculinity" is IN NO WAY saying "guys, you're toxic." That is not what toxic masculinity is- it is the EXPECTATIONS we put on men, from birth, to be stoic, strong, unemotional, and superhuman. Which you would know if you had read beyond the title of the article I posted.

What I know about the concept of toxic masculinity is that it is a feminist narrative. Here let me quote:

"Toxic masculinity is one of the ways in which Patriarchy is harmful to men. It refers to the socially-constructed attitudes that describe the masculine gender role as violent, unemotional, sexually aggressive, and so forth.

A well-known masculinity/men's rights movement that is not mostly anti-feminist has yet to appear. For a silencing tactic used to discredit patriarchy's harm to people who are not men, see Patriarchy hurts men too."

Toxic masculinity - Geek Feminism Wiki - Wikia

My point being, that I'm quite familiar with the concept and I don't like the term for several reasons, one of the reasons that is relevant to this thread is the use of 'toxic'.

For a moment, set aside your ideology and imagine a discussion among mostly women about an issue that affects women, then have some guy drop a masculinist article using toxic femininity in the article title.

 

[Ivy]

It really seems like you didn't read any of the article, and you're just focusing on that term to the exclusion of what the article ACTUALLY SAYS, which is almost identical to the article you rebutted mine with, with the exception of the terms used to describe/classify. So you're just complaining about style over substance, and I'm not here for that. IOW, I don't think I'm the one stuck on my own ideology.