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What am I? Help me decide between INFJ and ENTP

Entp/infjGal

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Gonna throw this out there. I'm no expert, but--

Perhaps her indecision over Ni/Ne is indicative of Ne, and her unwillingness to consider any of the other types other than INFJ or ENTP is indicative of stubborn, inferior Si?

Actually, I am open to considering other types. I started this thread having narrowed it down to those two, not arbitrarily but for very good reasons that I demonstrated. The INTJ poster made me rethink my understanding of introverted feeling. I am actually considering all those right now, including the ENFJ suggestion.....along with ENTP and INFJ .
 

Entp/infjGal

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I have typed many strangers with intuition very quickly. I have seen the patterns of the patterns.

You're just getting defensive and it's weak of you just to throw the card back at me.

I asked 21lux to explain. I have virtually little to none Si. My Ni is my introverted perception.

You say you want to know if your intuition is Ni or Ne yet you do nothing.

You haven't even considered Eric's point on ne/si
This is the irrational nonsense I am talking about. What on earth makes you say I "haven't considered" Eric's point? It seems you are engaged in a contest here while I am in a learning process. Actually I read Eric B's post with immense pleasure. Here you are, "You haven't even considered".....Talk about assumptions!
 

Forever

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This is the irrational nonsense I am talking about. What on earth makes you say I "haven't considered" Eric's point? It seems you are engaged in a contest here while I am in a learning process. Actually I read Eric B's post with immense pleasure. Here you are, "You haven't even considered".....Talk about assumptions!

Meow
 

Entp/infjGal

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You still haven't shown me what your intuition is like. You never shared your definitions either. Sensors do like things clear cut and you never seen someone who is a possibility loving person. Have you ever thought you just might prefer sensing and you're finding it hard to see intuition for yourself because perhaps you use it less?

May I add not all SJ's are numb thought less authority following people
Not all SP's are sports stars or the jocks. Hell I have seen some nerdy SP's who clearly love exercise.
Not all NF's are crusaders or liberals lol
Not all NT's are geniuses some of them are well not broadening their horizons enough lol

There's nothing wrong with being a sensor, my mother cares greatly about the present but yet she still loses things! Has a hard time with finding stuff sometimes. You just ignore my example of it? She's no way intuitive and thinks I overthink things and even distrusts me until I show her evidence which in some cases she is just surprised. But I still love her and she definitely has a good way about going life too in ways I need to improve on.

Plus it's the ISJ's who tend to be really academically smart because they just hold the information there and please understand there are smart and dumb people of every type.

Oh, and I know there's nothing wrong about being any type. I just disagree with you. I will not "borrow your conviction", to quote Antonia Dodge.
 

Entp/infjGal

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Thanks for all the information and your opinion! I got side tracked but definitely looking into your links! Thank you! :)
You seem to be definitely an N (likely dominant), and to simplify things, “TiFe” is an “Aligning Asessments” preference (as opposed to “Ordering Assessments”), and you seem to fit this as well. So we can further shorthand by saying you're trying to figure “Realizing Awareness” (SeNi) or “Inquiring Awareness” (SiNe). These are all the new terms by Berens and Montoya, apart of the new “Intentional Styles” model.
[MENTION=19719]Forever[/MENTION], you can look at all the Ne and Ni descriptions, and still not know the difference, because many of them are ambiguous, using general behavioral descriptions, which can sometimes be done by either attitude.

The best way to define them is to directly pinpoint what makes one introverted or extraverted.

First, there are now the wiki articles on them:

Extraverted Intuition - Typology Wiki
Introverted Intuition - Typology Wiki

The tandem styles are named as such, because they both stem from the basic S part of the tandem. Se takes in the tangible data as "is" in the current environment (e). Ni works from this, in deriving intangible data (patterns, meanings, etc) from the individual's (i) unconscious. Hence, both functions basically "Realize" data immediately. Si takes from individual memory, which is used as a mental canister that what "is", is compared to. Ne also draws from this, in taking in the patterns or concepts fromt he environment, and comparng them with other patterns stored in memory. So both end up comparing things, and hence "Inquiring" or basically going somewhere to get data, rather than just "realizing" it in the moment.

So from what I'm seeing, you seem on the Inquiring side, or Ne.



At first, "plot holes" made me think of Ni, because Ni often fills in "what's missing" from a pattern. But this, again, draws from the unconscious. (Again, Ne is also called unconscious, and both N in general, and introversion of any function were considered by Jung as "unconscious", so again, this makes it hard to tell Ne from Ni, but the key is where the perception comes from). You seem to be about Inquiring, or matching or filling in objects. So the conceptualization is externally oriented.



This sounds like Ne "brainstorming", and even though you said it was inner, all the functions will have some inner aspect, since they are within our own processing. But it still seems to be dealing with comparitive objects, like "from one to another". Ni is usually described differently than that, though again, there will be similarities. Ni doesn't seem to be so well marked in terms of "objects" (even if these in this example are technically "internal" ones), so it us usually expressed as symbols, for lack of better terminology.



This again sounds like Inquiring, with Si likely as the inferior or "aspirational" function (If you're 32, it might be starting to develop that way, and yet it would still explain the other post, of you still not being good with Si stuff).



Fe would be tertiary, and should be somewhat conscious by now (if still a bit immature), plus being a female will also tend to push someone toward traditional "feeling" behavior. I find female T's with tertiary Feeling (either attitude) do look a lot like Feeler at times.

Plus, there is also Interaction Styles (theother main model of Berens), which use the old classic temperament dimension of "people vs task" (which went along with introversion/extroversion). So both NP's and SF's are "informative", which is "people"-focused, and generally means more responsive to others, and generally softer in communcation. In some versions of classic temperament (the theories using the old "humour" names), it also indicates a higher "want" of interaction from people.
So that may also explain what you describe. And again, especally for a female. This often leads to the anamaly of NTP's, the only informative Thinkers, to confuse as Feelers.



It's often said that EN's might not always fit the classic portrayals of "extraversion" (which might be influenced by extraverted Sensing or Feeling), but I'm not so sure of that being a hard rule.
I do believe that in the classic sense, there is a graduated scale of I/E (the "Expressive" scale), where you can be a less expressive extravert.

Since ENP as an Interaction Style would correspond to the classic Sanguine temperament, on the social level, you could look at these variants to see if they fit:

Phlegmatic Sanguine in Inclusion
(the less expressive variant)

The Sanguine in Inclusion Temperament
(the pure, fully expressive version)

The Phlegmatic Supine in Inclusion
(an adjacent temperament that is even more reserved)

But the way I see it, ENTP.
 

Forever_Jung

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She don't argue like no INFJ I ever seen....;)

Railing against the assumptions her interlocutor is making, while also defending her manners, very Ti/Fe. Not to mention the very Pi proclamation:" I will not borrow your conviction" which is quoted from a known ENTP.

Hmm, whaddya think?

I will say this, tests are mostly hooey, but there are worst places to look.
 

Eric B

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[MENTION=3521]Eric B[/MENTION] why yes there are many ambiguous definitions of Ni and Ne, it's ridiculous as she believes she's narrowed it to ENTP and INFJ when she doesn't bother thinking to finding out how the whole type works out. Maybe I'm too harsh, but she's asking for a difficult answer when it can be resolved in an easier way.

It would be funny that she needs the littlest details over the big picture, if that makes sense. But I will say no more on the matter, I believe I had my say.

But yes, I do think she prefers Ne/Si over Ni/Se.

I dont see how someone can narrow it down to two types requiring to give OPPOSITE preference on everything but intuition.

Thats like saying that i narrowed myself down to either dominatrix lesbian or hetero sexual vanilla male

Infj and entp have completly different strategies for dealing with people, problems etc.
And they [functions] are not needed for mbti anyway.

There are different "angles" of looking at type, which is what's so good about Berens' contribution to the theory. So you can look at whole type, you can look at MBTI dichotomies, and you can look at functions. Since diametrically opposite functions actually work in tandem with each other (they are but reflections resulting from ego consciousness dividing reality into what's paid attention to, and what's not), then we often have people who realize which tandem resonates with them, and hence why I've been saying for years the tandems should be named. (Recall, a few people were going through this for years, and I think "Garbage" is the current handle of one of the ones I'm thinking of now; IIRC. He too knew he was TiFe, but wasn't sure which was preferred, and eventually settled on NiSe).

This happened for me as well, as I too quickly identified with Ne/Si, but found that whole type profiles, where they're all attempted to be put together (sometimes based on dichotomies and not functions at all, depending on the theorist), usually in terms of generalized behaviors, were just confusing or at least not telling enough, and then, there was a lot of generalistic confusion over T vs F (both in the form of functions Ti vs Fi and temperaments NT vs NF), such as T's lack of emotional display, etc.

Ti and Fi are often confused, but then the most difficult to understand at all is Ni, and for one thing, just the fact that it's "irrational" perception might make the judgment functions easier to explain and grasp.
Also i havent met many type doubting entps, except when the little weasels are actually intps or want attention.

And finally!
She speaks like a damned wizard. Including smileys and assigning feelings to things.
Entps barely assign feelings to people they don't like I mean. C'mon now :coffee:
As I pointed out, NTP's end up being the ones most unsure of type, because of all the confusion of T/F (with people always trying to push someon toward F, based on generalities like these), and especially, the "informative" Interaction Style. And then, just the nature of Ne.
 

Kheledon

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Here's one way to distinguish between the types you are considering. Which is your greater fear--having your mouth shut (lack of freedom of expression) or having your hands tied (lack of self-determination, power, and the ability to act when you wish to act)?

One of the two types you list is Alpha Quadrant in Socionics. The other is Gamma Quadrant. You may wish to read these essays and see which fits you better:

Socionics - the16types.info - Alpha Quadra: The Complex of Closed Mouth by Stratiyevskaya
Socionics - the16types.info - Gamma Quadra: The Complex of Tied Hands by Stratiyevskaya

Hope that helps. :hi:
 

uumlau

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Basically I have typed others so often the way someone speaks gives me an impression of who they are. That is Ni
No, this is not unique to Ni.

Yes, it is quite possible to meet someone in person, "vibe" their type and be completely correct. Online, this tends to fail badly. Oh, and INFJs tend to be REALLY bad about this, because they think their "in person" skills translate to online, thinking that "the way someone speaks" is enough information, not realizing that they haven't heard the tone of voice or seen any visual cues or mannerisms or any of a bunch of other "Se information" that is unconsciously gathered.

To this point actually I'm going to actually say yes you do
:dry:

Perhaps you are just teasing, but I doubt it. Cut it out. (I say that as a friend, not with my mod hat on.)

We have a new member who is asking about her type. If we treat her nicely, maybe we get a cool new member who is fun to hang out with. If we don't, well, now we know who to blame. :devil:

In general, I've found the best way to type people over the internet is to just give them the tools and let them figure it out for themselves. It has the distinct virtue of always being correct. ;)
 

Forever

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No, this is not unique to Ni.

Yes, it is quite possible to meet someone in person, "vibe" their type and be completely correct. Online, this tends to fail badly. Oh, and INFJs tend to be REALLY bad about this, because they think their "in person" skills translate to online, thinking that "the way someone speaks" is enough information, not realizing that they haven't heard the tone of voice or seen any visual cues or mannerisms or any of a bunch of other "Se information" that is unconsciously gathered.


:dry:

Perhaps you are just teasing, but I doubt it. Cut it out. (I say that as a friend, not with my mod hat on.)

We have a new member who is asking about her type. If we treat her nicely, maybe we get a cool new member who is fun to hang out with. If we don't, well, now we know who to blame. :devil:

In general, I've found the best way to type people over the internet is to just give them the tools and let them figure it out for themselves. It has the distinct virtue of always being correct. ;)

Oh Uumlau she's pretty much ignore everything I have to offer and even when other member's talked about what she was stressed about. Kind of dropped the ball there and for like the last quotes she picks a single sentence and only attacks I know it's because I have been critical on her and she kept doing it and yes the permission part was a joke but it was almost like I give up trying to explain to you my opinion and just be what she's accusing me to be.

I will take a step back like she has said "I only volunteered" so she still hasn't listed her mbti results, kind of secretive about what she thinks of any of the resources than a thanks. She could be busy but I think it's more courteous if you have read and say this is true and isn't true because blah blah.

But anyway neither of us really like each other anymore. And sorry for the immaturity and this is online I understand.
 

Entp/infjGal

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Here's one way to distinguish between the types you are considering. Which is your greater fear--having your mouth shut (lack of freedom of expression) or having your hands tied (lack of self-determination, power, and the ability to act when you wish to act)?

One of the two types you list is Alpha Quadrant in Socionics. The other is Gamma Quadrant. You may wish to read these essays and see which fits you better:

Socionics - the16types.info - Alpha Quadra: The Complex of Closed Mouth by Stratiyevskaya
Socionics - the16types.info - Gamma Quadra: The Complex of Tied Hands by Stratiyevskaya

Hope that helps. :hi:
Thank you! ENFJs are awesome...as nice as ISFJs! :hi:
 

Entp/infjGal

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She don't argue like no INFJ I ever seen....;)

Railing against the assumptions her interlocutor is making, while also defending her manners, very Ti/Fe. Not to mention the very Pi proclamation:" I will not borrow your conviction" which is quoted from a known ENTP.

Hmm, whaddya think?

I will say this, tests are mostly hooey, but there are worst places to look.
[MENTION=7040]Forever_Jung[/MENTION], I find this interesting! Mind telling me what type my argumentation makes you think of? :) Thanks!

To me its just noticing what is wrong with the way someone lays out their conclusions and the "reasoning" presented as a basis for its accuracy.

I would also assume Ti as it seems to be pointing out the unestablished premises upon which the argument has been built (assumptions)....but it may very well be Te: Pointing out lack of facts (evidence) or an objective process from which the conclusion would be drawn (assumptions) or intuiton, noticing biases or holes in the data tied to the conclusion as a whole (Ni) or that the noted "evidence" could be interpreted so many ways that there is no basis to say the one touted is the truth (Ne) (again these could all be "railing against assumptions")Lastly there is also sensation...in this case i happen to have the facts (its my life) and therefore immediate knowledge that many of those statements are simply innacurate, factually speaking.

Same for the Fe. I might be defending an interpersonal value there or establishing an interpersonal boundary but I could also be defending my own integrity/moral identity, in which case it would be defending Fi.

Also, "I will not borrow your conviction" may be Ji...sort if like " I will not accept something is true on nothing more than your sheer proclamations/claimed authority if i am not myself intellrctually satisfied by sound reasoning (Ti) (alternatively, by inner moral assurance (Fi)) that it is in fact true"....or something like that.

LOL! Every time I reread this post I find something to add, the mystery of how tje OP got so long revealed! Here goes again..."I will not borrow your conviction" could also be Je: I will not accept your Pi without objective proof! (Hopefuly my last edit...or "addit" I should say)

In other words (yes its another addit)...that statement is simply me refusing to establish "truth" on another persons Pi claims. The basis for that refusal could be the operation of any of the functions, including my own Pi, as you pointed out.

So thats what I think....What do you think?

To be honest, I am now leaning heavily towards ENTP or ENFP or ENFJ. My mind is unglued! So many possibilities, haha������
 

uumlau

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To be honest, I am now leaning heavily towards ENTP or ENFP or ENFJ. My mind is unglued! So many possibilities, haha������

Just take your time. One thing that really helps is to just observe a lot of people. If you don't have enough people in real life, there are a ton of YouTube videos that have people of various types talking about typology and their experiences as a particular type. While not perfect, that can give you a feel for what each type is like, and also a feel for what aspects of personality aren't a part of type.

Just a word of warning: getting a feel for typology takes months/years, not days. It's like learning a new language for describing people. Think of it like fruit: you might initially be introduced to a certain kind of pear, and be told that's a pear. But then you'll eventually come across a different kind of pear that doesn't really look like the first kind at all, but it does taste like it. And then you'll come across another and the same thing. And then you'll come across something that you'll swear is a pear, because it looks more or less like all the other pears and bite into it and think, "Waitaminute! This isn't a pear! What is this?" and eventually you learn that THAT "pear" is really a mango. Or you come across something that has a lot of the properties of a pear but looks and tastes a bit different, and eventually learn that that "pear" is really an apple. And so on.

The reason I'm using fruit typology as an example is that you CANNOT EXPLAIN what a pear or mango or apple tastes like with words. Pictures are possible, of course, but with human typology, all you have is words, and those words do NOT distinguish the huge spectrum of possible personality traits very well, and they don't align with typology very well. So the only way to gain a common understanding of the typology is to gain an understanding of people and talk about them with other people who understand typology, and your understanding of the language evolves from there. This is why some people can just encounter someone and instantly know their type: because they have experience doing so. I was originally typed as an INTJ by a professional psychologist friend of mine who did exactly that, and in spite of considering a LOT of possibilities, I've had no reason to serioiusly reconsider my type since then.
 

meowington

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In general, I've found the best way to type people over the internet is to just give them the tools and let them figure it out for themselves. It has the distinct virtue of always being correct. ;)

That's why it's called the iNTernet :devil: Designed and maintained by NTs. Abstract and yet strictly logical.
 

Entp/infjGal

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I just wanted to come back here and say that while my search is not definitively concluded, I have come to the conclusion that I am most likely an ESFJ with serious ADHD issues (or in typological language, "chronic TE underdevelopment") which likely lead to an early overdevelopment of my tertiary NE as a coping strategy, for trouble-shooting and crisis management purposes, as well as possible escapism.

My decision was greatly influenced by the typing of an experienced and knowledgeable "typist" who made me see the overwhelming influence of FE in my psyche overall, as well as my similarities (appearance/behaviorally speaking) to FE Doms, mostly ESFJ. I however retained ENFJ as a possibility because I recognised lots of Intuition in myself.

But once that light was lit, it gradually became very obvious to me how much my thinking and life is shaped by Fe interests, methods, investments. Not just that I use or prefer it, but really just how much it dominates me psyche....I now find it impossible not to notice Fe's omnipresence in me.

It was also made known to me (by the same person) that I have a very obvious and highly developed Extroverted Intuition, which then logically meant I had to also have Si somewhere in there. This is why, he explained (many times, poor fellow! ) why he preffered ESFJ over ENFJ and he had ENTP (and not ENFJ) as a second option to consider with further exploration, because he felt sure I use FE-Ti and NE-Si and both FE and NE were rather "visible" or just very obvious in my mannerisms and concept-formation, both my self-concept and my in-the-moment conception for communication purposes....This was unlike me who had ESFJ or ENFJ as my two options from the very moment I began to "see" (thanks to certain pointers) just how much I am truly immersed in an FE coloured world. I now see it nearly everywhere in my past and present.

I have slowly come to his way of thinking, explaining my peculiar manifestations (of the functions) to myself as the result of struggles I have experienced from childhood around TE incompetence in an environment where such competence was greatly demanded. I now think this may have pushed me into developing my tertiary just to deal with the chaos that followed me all over the place due to a chronic inability to organize and the need to fix the messes in some way. So rather than ENFJ, I am an FE dom whom life has forced to rely on her NE tertiary for decades, to the point where I became identified with aspects of the function as integral to who I thought I was.

I wonder what implications this has had on my Si? I am now trying to understand this function for the singular purpose of developing it in order to be my healthiest version....hoping of course, that I am right and am neither an ENTP with too much FE influence (I now highly, highly doubt this, my Fe-domness is about the clearest aspect I have come to slowly see, but I am still keeping it in the back drawer as it has been pointed out to me as the second most likely option given how I manifest the functions) nor an ENFJ, who though Fe-Dom, does not use Extroverted Intuition.

Just thought I'd give an update incase someone with similar struggles identifying their type may come to read this in future! Thanks to all those who helped. Everything said made me think much deeper, and helped to suspend my beliefs about my functions. One poster ([MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION]) suggested I talk to or observe real people. This has been the most impactful thing I've done so far. Even after the suggestions that I got from the person who typed me, it was really seeing examples in videos of many confirmed "representatives" of the suggested or likely options (ESFJ, ENTP, ENFJ) and compared to videos of myself, watching myself from an outside perdpective, see myself actually speak and such, that I began to see who my overall impression (or feel) most resembles in real life. So I would highly recommend that tip to anyone else caught in a pickle of indecision. I have come to see videos of other types also, and don't think I come across as many of them.
 

Entp/infjGal

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OK, for whoever might still be reading this, I am back to the drawing board. I no longer am certain I'm ESFJ and think I may be ENTP, but my deep interest and love for people gives me a big question mark. I've been told that being female and the pressures that come with it might push an ENTP female to greatly develop their tertiary....perhaps. I just don't know any more. Wish there was a damned blood test! :shrug:
 

Eric B

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Again, I think the "love for people" is from Interaction Styles: Understanding Berens' Interaction Styles Both ENTP and ESFJ are "Get Things Going", and thus they will actually look very similar on the surface, in addition to the fact that these two types are so close functionally anyway (NeTiFeSi vs FeSiNeTi).
"Their focus is on interaction, often with an expressive style. They Get-Things-Goingâ„¢ with upbeat energy, enthusiasm, or excitement, which can be contagious. They want decisions to be participative and enthusiastic, with everyone involved and engaged."
 

Cold

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Sorry that this is out of topic, but what are you going to do with your username after you confirm your mbti type? xD
 

uumlau

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OK, for whoever might still be reading this, I am back to the drawing board. I no longer am certain I'm ESFJ and think I may be ENTP, but my deep interest and love for people gives me a big question mark. I've been told that being female and the pressures that come with it might push an ENTP female to greatly develop their tertiary....perhaps. I just don't know any more. Wish there was a damned blood test! :shrug:

There is a definite interplay between ESFJ and ENTP types. If you look just at functions, we have

ESFJ - Fe Si Ne Ti
ENTP - Ne Ti Fe Si

See the pattern?

Fe Si (ESFJ) + Ne Ti (ENTP) vs
Ne Ti (ENTP) + Fe Si (ESFJ)

In general, the tertiary and inferior functions come out later in life. There's an ENTP database administrator of my acquaintance that would always bring food to work and offer it to everyone. He always did his utmost to be nice and was nice in a very "motherly" kind of way. He was very ESFJ in this regard. Yet he was totally ENTP, too. I would get into arguments with him that had all the flavor of an ENTP-INTJ argument, the kind of arguments an ESFJ would never get into.

In my case as an INTJ, there is kind of an "inner ISFP" that comes into play. So on the one hand, I've got a PhD in physics and can figure out technical problems much faster than most of my peers, but there's another side of me that just wants to drop all the technical crap and just dance or play music and otherwise relax and enjoy life.

The insight that Jung had (which has evolved since his time) is that he observed that every type also has their opposite type, usually suppressed in the unconscious mind. His ideal, however, was the "transcendental function", which is kind of a merging of types, where both the main type and its opposite are consciously in play.

So most people, especially around college age, are pretty much just one type, and the rest is unconscious. As we get older, however, that unconscious side becomes more conscious, all else being equal. It's also possible for some older people to insist more and more of just being the one type and vigorously suppress their unconscious side, so it isn't a guaranteed development. Conversely, I think it is sometimes possible for someone to develop their unconscious side earlier for whatever reason.

That said, talking about "the unconscious" cannot possibly prove anything one way or the other. This is about self-knowledge, not about "what type you are". The main reason you don't know your type is that you don't know yourself very well. Figuring out your type and figuring out yourself kind of go hand in hand. Think of typology as a framework you can use to get to know yourself, where it gives you some solid concepts to hold onto as you try to figure out which concepts really apply to you.

Finally, remember that I said this process takes years, not months or days. Any quick answer you might arrive at will almost certainly be wrong. What will happen is that as you ponder these things, the correct answer will arise on its own as your continued thinking/pondering along these lines will necessarily improve your self knowledge.

But if you'd like a quick answer, I'd say you're ENTP who is relying more than most young ENTPs on your unconscious ESFJ side to relate to people, probably because you have come to realize that talking to most people in ENTP terms leaves them kind of confused, but if you switch to ESFJ mannerisms, they suddenly become much more cooperative.
 
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