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What am I? Help me decide between INFJ and ENTP

EcK

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[MENTION=3521]Eric B[/MENTION] why yes there are many ambiguous definitions of Ni and Ne, it's ridiculous as she believes she's narrowed it to ENTP and INFJ when she doesn't bother thinking to finding out how the whole type works out. Maybe I'm too harsh, but she's asking for a difficult answer when it can be resolved in an easier way.

It would be funny that she needs the littlest details over the big picture, if that makes sense. But I will say no more on the matter, I believe I had my say.

But yes, I do think she prefers Ne/Si over Ni/Se.

I dont see how someone can narrow it down to two types requiring to give OPPOSITE preference on everything but intuition.

Thats like saying that i narrowed myself down to either dominatrix lesbian or hetero sexual vanilla male

Infj and entp have completly different strategies for dealing with people, problems etc.

Also i havent met many type doubting entps, except when the little weasels are actually intps or want attention.

And finally!
She speaks like a damned wizard. Including smileys and assigning feelings to things.
Entps barely assign feelings to people they don't like I mean. C'mon now :coffee:
 

EcK

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You seem to be definitely an N (likely dominant), and to simplify things, “TiFe” is an “Aligning Asessments” preference (as opposed to “Ordering Assessments”), and you seem to fit this as well. So we can further shorthand by saying you're trying to figure “Realizing Awareness” (SeNi) or “Inquiring Awareness” (SiNe). These are all the new terms by Berens and Montoya, apart of the new “Intentional Styles” model.
[MENTION=19719]Forever[/MENTION], you can look at all the Ne and Ni descriptions, and still not know the difference, because many of them are ambiguous, using general behavioral descriptions, which can sometimes be done by either attitude.

The best way to define them is to directly pinpoint what makes one introverted or extraverted.

First, there are now the wiki articles on them:

Extraverted Intuition - Typology Wiki
Introverted Intuition - Typology Wiki

The tandem styles are named as such, because they both stem from the basic S part of the tandem. Se takes in the tangible data as "is" in the current environment (e). Ni works from this, in deriving intangible data (patterns, meanings, etc) from the individual's (i) unconscious. Hence, both functions basically "Realize" data immediately. Si takes from individual memory, which is used as a mental canister that what "is", is compared to. Ne also draws from this, in taking in the patterns or concepts fromt he environment, and comparng them with other patterns stored in memory. So both end up comparing things, and hence "Inquiring" or basically going somewhere to get data, rather than just "realizing" it in the moment.

So from what I'm seeing, you seem on the Inquiring side, or Ne.



At first, "plot holes" made me think of Ni, because Ni often fills in "what's missing" from a pattern. But this, again, draws from the unconscious. (Again, Ne is also called unconscious, and both N in general, and introversion of any function were considered by Jung as "unconscious", so again, this makes it hard to tell Ne from Ni, but the key is where the perception comes from). You seem to be about Inquiring, or matching or filling in objects. So the conceptualization is externally oriented.



This sounds like Ne "brainstorming", and even though you said it was inner, all the functions will have some inner aspect, since they are within our own processing. But it still seems to be dealing with comparitive objects, like "from one to another". Ni is usually described differently than that, though again, there will be similarities. Ni doesn't seem to be so well marked in terms of "objects" (even if these in this example are technically "internal" ones), so it us usually expressed as symbols, for lack of better terminology.



This again sounds like Inquiring, with Si likely as the inferior or "aspirational" function (If you're 32, it might be starting to develop that way, and yet it would still explain the other post, of you still not being good with Si stuff).



Fe would be tertiary, and should be somewhat conscious by now (if still a bit immature), plus being a female will also tend to push someone toward traditional "feeling" behavior. I find female T's with tertiary Feeling (either attitude) do look a lot like Feeler at times.

Plus, there is also Interaction Styles (theother main model of Berens), which use the old classic temperament dimension of "people vs task" (which went along with introversion/extroversion). So both NP's and SF's are "informative", which is "people"-focused, and generally means more responsive to others, and generally softer in communcation. In some versions of classic temperament (the theories using the old "humour" names), it also indicates a higher "want" of interaction from people.
So that may also explain what you describe. And again, especally for a female. This often leads to the anamaly of NTP's, the only informative Thinkers, to confuse as Feelers.



It's often said that EN's might not always fit the classic portrayals of "extraversion" (which might be influenced by extraverted Sensing or Feeling), but I'm not so sure of that being a hard rule.
I do believe that in the classic sense, there is a graduated scale of I/E (the "Expressive" scale), where you can be a less expressive extravert.

Since ENP as an Interaction Style would correspond to the classic Sanguine temperament, on the social level, you could look at these variants to see if they fit:

Phlegmatic Sanguine in Inclusion
(the less expressive variant)

The Sanguine in Inclusion Temperament
(the pure, fully expressive version)

The Phlegmatic Supine in Inclusion
(an adjacent temperament that is even more reserved)

But the way I see it, ENTP.

Your dark magic will only confuse her further.
 

Forever

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I dont see how someone can narrow it down to two types requiring to give OPPOSITE preference on everything but intuition.

Thats like saying that i narrowed myself down to either dominatrix lesbian or hetero sexual vanilla male

Infj and entp have completly different strategies for dealing with people, problems etc.

Also i havent met many type doubting entps, except when the little weasels are actually intps or want attention.

And I cannot for the life of me how she found a clear cut difference of Ti/Fe and Te/Fi and not know the basic difference of Ni/Se and Si/Ne. Ti is so difficult for me to put in simple words without making it sound incomplete or confusing.

Ni subjective nature of how an event is interpreted. The core meaning to that of the individual
Ne objective meaning (outer world) of how something makes use or manifests for itself.
Si subjective impression of the object and how the event felt to the user
Se objective impressions are simply what it is, no special meaning to the user
Ti logic that makes sense to the own user and is more caring about how something is done than rather the goal itself
Te reason that can be proven by evidence, tends to focus goals over process
Fi subjective values applied universally
Fe objective values applied communally

I know I know they're rather incomplete but still how the eff do you somehow being a new user narrow to 2 simple types.
 

Entp/infjGal

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[MENTION=3521]Eric B[/MENTION] why yes there are many ambiguous definitions of Ni and Ne, it's ridiculous as she believes she's narrowed it to ENTP and INFJ when she doesn't bother thinking to finding out how the whole type works out. Maybe I'm too harsh, but she's asking for a difficult answer when it can be resolved in an easier way.

It would be funny that she needs the littlest details over the big picture, if that makes sense. But I will say no more on the matter, I believe I had my say.

But yes, I do think she prefers Ne/Si over Ni/Se.

What makes you think I haven't inquired into how the whole type works. I have been reading this thing for years now. I gave a history of how I went about eliminating options, from the nfs and sfjs. And the ISFJ suggestion is ridiculous. I wasn't trying to insult you, it's just easier sometimes to know what you are poor at, like TE and SI and SE for me, once you know what they are. You recognise them in all your childhood and adult struggles.

You can relax. Your INFJ patent is safe. ;)
 

EcK

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And I cannot for the life of me how she found a clear cut difference of Ti/Fe and Te/Fi and not know the basic difference of Ni/Se and Si/Ne. Ti is so difficult for me to put in simple words without making it sound incomplete or confusing.

Ni subjective nature of how an event is interpreted. The core meaning to that of the individual
Ne objective meaning (outer world) of how something makes use or manifests for itself.
Si subjective impression of the object and how the event felt to the user
Se objective impressions are simply what it is, no special meaning to the user
Ti logic that makes sense to the own user and is more caring about how something is done than rather the goal itself
Te reason that can be proven by evidence, tends to focus goals over process
Fi subjective values applied universally
Fe objective values applied communally

I know I know they're rather incomplete but still how the eff do you somehow being a new user narrow to 2 simple types.

Don't feed the OP monster now.
[MENTION=27588]Entp/infjGal[/MENTION]
She just needs to behave and do what I told her initially. Take the damn test. Give us percentages. And if that doesnt work drop mbti all together and pick up a copy of "divergent"
 

Entp/infjGal

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And I cannot for the life of me how she found a clear cut difference of Ti/Fe and Te/Fi and not know the basic difference of Ni/Se and Si/Ne. Ti is so difficult for me to put in simple words without making it sound incomplete or confusing.

Ni subjective nature of how an event is interpreted. The core meaning to that of the individual
Ne objective meaning (outer world) of how something makes use or manifests for itself.
Si subjective impression of the object and how the event felt to the user
Se objective impressions are simply what it is, no special meaning to the user
Ti logic that makes sense to the own user and is more caring about how something is done than rather the goal itself
Te reason that can be proven by evidence, tends to focus goals over process
Fi subjective values applied universally
Fe objective values applied communally

I know I know they're rather incomplete but still how the eff do you somehow being a new user narrow to 2 simple types.

Who said I don't know a "basic" difference between NISE and NeSI? I know all your typical descriptions. I said I cannot pinpoint it in myself. And yes, it took me a long time to figure what people actually meant with Ti and TE, not in terms of generic descriptions, but being actually the ability to label a process in myself as its going on and say, yes, this is TI. I never used to think of the process I now know to be TE as a logical process. I always thought it was just practical. When it finally clicked I understood why I could not see that before.
 

Forever

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What makes you think I haven't inquired into how the whole type works. I have been reading this thing for years now. I gave a history of how I went about eliminating options, from the nfs and sfjs. And the ISFJ suggestion is ridiculous. I wasn't trying to insult you, it's just easier sometimes to know what you are poor at, like TE and SI and SE for me, once you know what they are. You recognise them in all your childhood and adult struggles.

You can relax. Your INFJ patent is safe. ;)
I just have the feeling you misunderstand Si/Se as some primitive function and it really bugs me. If all sensors were amazing at sports or physical reality do you think there would be an nfl or nhl or nba lol? Clearly there is a hierarchy in this word of worst to best. I feel like you're somehow seeing sensors as too black and white they use intuition too and everyone has differing degrees without sensation you wouldn't be alive.
Don't feed the OP monster now.
[MENTION=27588]Entp/infjGal[/MENTION]
She just needs to behave and do what I told her initially. Take the damn test. Give us percentages. And if that doesnt work drop mbti all together and pick up a copy of "divergent"

I know I know.
 

EcK

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Who said I don't know a "basic" difference between NISE and NeSI? I know all your typical descriptions. I said I cannot pinpoint it in myself. And yes, it took me a long time to figure what people actually meant with Ti and TE, not in terms of generic descriptions, but being actually the ability to label a process in myself as its going on and say, yes, this is TI. I never used to think of the process I now know to be TE as a logical process. I always thought it was just practical. When it finally clicked I understood why I could not see that before.

Ok and this will probably be my last post

You have to understand that there are some very smart people on this forum, some of them typing for over a decade.

Yes some people talk about it as if it was wizardry, and that's just them being delusional and building patterns that are either not there or not solid enough to deserve specific denominations.

What works is much simpler than that and you are focusing on pointless details that seem beyond your competence level in this particular "field" or rather for this tool that is mbti at this point.
Maybe just maybe some of us know what we we're talking about. Ummlau gave u the way to go, so did i and others.

If you can't decide between opposing descriptioms its unlikely your assessment of function ough to ne trusted. Most people, even on this forum have a bad grasp of functions. And they are not needed for mbti anyway.
If you don't want to listen I don't know what more I can say
 

Forever

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Who said I don't know a "basic" difference between NISE and NeSI? I know all your typical descriptions. I said I cannot pinpoint it in myself. And yes, it took me a long time to figure what people actually meant with Ti and TE, not in terms of generic descriptions, but being actually the ability to label a process in myself as its going on and say, yes, this is TI. I never used to think of the process I now know to be TE as a logical process. I always thought it was just practical. When it finally clicked I understood why I could not see that before.
You still haven't shown me what your intuition is like. You never shared your definitions either. Sensors do like things clear cut and you never seen someone who is a possibility loving person. Have you ever thought you just might prefer sensing and you're finding it hard to see intuition for yourself because perhaps you use it less?

May I add not all SJ's are numb thought less authority following people
Not all SP's are sports stars or the jocks. Hell I have seen some nerdy SP's who clearly love exercise.
Not all NF's are crusaders or liberals lol
Not all NT's are geniuses some of them are well not broadening their horizons enough lol

There's nothing wrong with being a sensor, my mother cares greatly about the present but yet she still loses things! Has a hard time with finding stuff sometimes. You just ignore my example of it? She's no way intuitive and thinks I overthink things and even distrusts me until I show her evidence which in some cases she is just surprised. But I still love her and she definitely has a good way about going life too in ways I need to improve on.

Plus it's the ISJ's who tend to be really academically smart because they just hold the information there and please understand there are smart and dumb people of every type.
 

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You still haven't shown me what intuition is. Have you ever thought you just might prefer sensing and you're finding it hard to see intuition for yourself because perhaps you use it less?
You haven't shown me what SI is yourself. You just have this weird need to have me "earn" a right to be called intuitive. Otherwise I am a sensor by default. This is your big logic. Not interested in identity ego fights here. You asked me what I meant by intuition, I told you. You then threw a tantrum claiming I was "building a case for INFJ". And here you are claiming I haven't shown you intuition. Funny how others see that intuition enough to pinpoint what kind they think it might be, but noooh. I must earn the badge from you, right?

I have useful feedback here from people with clearly good intentions who have actually taken the time to read every post without a desperate need to make it fit a conclusion they reached in about two seconds. The ISFJ, the ENFJ, the INTJ and the INTP here plus a few others have been incredibly helpful. I am taking all they have said in.

Eck, I can post those test results. What exactly are you hoping they will do?
 

Forever

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You haven't shown me what SI is yourself. You just have this weird need to have me "earn" a right to be called intuitive. Otherwise I am a sensor by default. This is your big logic. Not interested in identity ego fights here. You asked me what I meant by intuition, I told you. You then threw a tantrum claiming I was "building a case for INFJ". And here you are claiming I haven't shown you intuition. Funny how others see that intuition enough to pinpoint what kind they think it might be, but noooh. I must earn the badge from you, right?

I have useful feedback here from people with clearly good intentions who have actually taken the time to read every post without a desperate need to make it fit a conclusion they reached in about two seconds. The ISFJ, the ENFJ, the INTJ and the INTP here plus a few others have been incredibly helpful. I am taking all they have said in.

Eck, I can post those test results. What exactly are you hoping they will do?

I have typed many strangers with intuition very quickly. I have seen the patterns of the patterns.

You're just getting defensive and it's weak of you just to throw the card back at me.

I asked 21lux to explain. I have virtually little to none Si. My Ni is my introverted perception.

You say you want to know if your intuition is Ni or Ne yet you do nothing.

You haven't even considered Eric's point on ne/si
 

Entp/infjGal

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Ok and this will probably be my last post

You have to understand that there are some very smart people on this forum, some of them typing for over a decade.

Yes some people talk about it as if it was wizardry, and that's just them being delusional and building patterns that are either not there or not solid enough to deserve specific denominations.

What works is much simpler than that and you are focusing on pointless details that seem beyond your competence level in this particular "field" or rather for this tool that is mbti at this point.
Maybe just maybe some of us know what we we're talking about. Ummlau gave u the way to go, so did i and others.

If you can't decide between opposing descriptioms its unlikely your assessment of function ough to ne trusted. Most people, even on this forum have a bad grasp of functions. And they are not needed for mbti anyway.
If you don't want to listen I don't know what more I can say
I dont know what gave you the idea I consider myself an expert. My answer was in response to the assertion that I have lacked an interest into inquiries into the "whole type". Ridiculous. I've been doing that type of inquiry for a while! Maybe, just maybe, those haven't been helpful? I see myself in quite a few type descriptions, for example. Maybe those "experts" who suggest going into the cognitive functions themselves as a way of arriving at a destination aren't stupid? Maybe I was not stupid in deciding to follow them? Just a few thoughts!
 

Forever

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Basically I have typed others so often the way someone speaks gives me an impression of who they are. That is Ni
 

Entp/infjGal

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I have typed many strangers with intuition very quickly. I have seen the patterns of the patterns.

You're just getting defensive and it's weak of you just to throw the card back at me.

See now who is using the "I am an expert, just accept my blind assertions at face value. How dare you ask I actually back it up?" Card.

Your friend Eck above, has accused me of engaging in this irrational behaviour. Ironic!:)

You are basically making DEMANDS that I just accept what you say at face value even when I can see it is unsupported or makes no sense. ALL the while making endless demands I prove something to you I have explained. It's tiring. I didn't force you to participate in my thread. And I don't need your permission to call my self intuitive.
 

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See now who is using the "I am an expert, just accept my blind assertions at face value. How dare you ask I actually back it up?" Card.

Your friend Eck above, has accused me if engaging in this irrational behaviour. Ironic!:)

You are making DEMANDS that I just accept what you say at face value even when I can see it is is unsupported or makes no sense. ALlandudno the while making endless demands I prove something to you I have explained. It's tiring. I didn't force you to participate in my thread. And I don't need your permission to call my self intuitive.

To this point actually I'm going to actually say yes you do
 

EcK

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I dont know what gave you the idea I consider myself an expert. My answer was in response to the assertion that I have lacked an interest into inquiries into the "whole type". Ridiculous. I've been doing that type of inquiry for a while! Maybe, just maybe, those haven't been helpful? I see myself in quite a few type descriptions, for example. Maybe those "experts" who suggest going into the cognitive functions themselves as a way of arriving at a destination aren't stupid? Maybe I was not stupid in deciding to follow them? Just a few thoughts!

And maybe its pointless for you to "follow the advice" of
Whoever you're calling an expert without the ability to know one "function" from another. Or the ability to see which description applies to you. Or that if none actually do then mbti just doesnt apply to you.

Which have all been said before. But you keep acting as if your 3 conversations with a friend and having read opinions from tarrot readers cum "experts at mbti" are all you need rather than see it for the oh so simple system it actually is.

But hey please do go on, ask for advice and then behave arrogantly. Way to go.
 

Entp/infjGal

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And maybe its pointless for you to "follow the advice" of
Whoever you're calling an expert without the ability to know one "function" from another. Or the ability to see which description applies to you. Or that if none actually do then mbti just doesnt apply to you.

Which have all been said before. But you keep acting as if your 3 conversations with a friend a having read opinions from tarrot readers cum "experts at mbti" rather than see it as the oh so simple system it actually is.

But hey please do go on, ask for advice and then behave arrogantly. Way to go.

How is it arrogant to defend myself from "advice" that's basically an attack and constant insinuations that I am somehow dishonest? I haven't suggested I will only follow their advice. In that post you quote for example, I am defending myself from the accusation that you levelled at me that I was somehow pretending to be expert by trying to figure out the cognitive functions, when this is just one strategy to narrowing type that I picked up from personality websites and decided to pursue. Asking for advice is not an invitation to being harassed. I'm sorry. I am very open to breing hown a completely different way. I am NOT open to being disrespected.
 

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Gonna throw this out there. I'm no expert, but--

Perhaps her indecision over Ni/Ne is indicative of Ne, and her unwillingness to consider any of the other types other than INFJ or ENTP is indicative of stubborn, inferior Si?
 
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