Video: ENFPs lie

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Can ENFPs lie their way out of going to jail?

 

[Starry]

Can ENFPs lie their way out of going to jail?

I once lied my freakin ass off to save myself from... I don't even know how many traffic tickets/violations. I was on a road trip with multiple cars/parties...and in spite of having been pulled-over (a passenger in my car was "unrestrained" while passing sandwiches and sodas up from the cooler in the way-way back) ... was still in a situation where people were depending on me and my vehicle to get them to the next location. Now, in my defense I want to say that I'm a total grandma driver and have a spotless record...I'm just not good at remembering to renew things until the law is approaching my vehicle.

I'm not sure if what I did totally qualifies as lying though...there were so many things wrong and I was so worried that I would be responsible for ruining other people's vacation...that I had to take it to the next level. I was so scared I had to do the Obi Wan. <-Truly...the first thing I heard after it was all over was someone in my car say "What the fuck just happened?" haha. But it was because others were counting on me. I really don't think I could lie my way out of jail unless there was someone else counting on me.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I once lied my freakin ass off to save myself from... I don't even know how many traffic tickets/violations. I was on a road trip with multiple cars/parties...and in spite of having been pulled-over (a passenger in my car was "unrestrained" while passing sandwiches and sodas up from the cooler in the way-way back) ... was still in a situation where people were depending on me and my vehicle to get them to the next location. Now, in my defense I want to say that I'm a total grandma driver and have a spotless record...I'm just not good at remembering to renew things until the law is approaching my vehicle.

I'm not sure if what I did qualifies as lying...there were so many things wrong and I was so worried that I would be responsible for ruining other people's vacation...that I had to take it to the next level. I was so scared I had to do the Obi Wan. <-Truly...the first thing I heard after it was all over was someone in my car say "What the fuck just happened?" haha. But it was because others were counting on me. I really don't think I could lie my way out of jail unless there was someone else counting on me.

HAHA, I always wondered if Obi-Wan was secretly shitting himself and saying "oh fuck fuck fuck I am SO SCREWED" in his head while projecting that gangsta cool.


I literally lied to a detective (white collar shit, over a decade old, in case anyone is looking for dirt on Anaximander) to his face. I was wondering how ENFPs deal with willful lying to authority types. Does it depend on the individual or are they all likely to feel some remorse or guilt over lying?

 

[Starry]

HAHA, I always wondered if Obi-Wan was secretly shitting himself and saying "oh fuck fuck fuck I am SO SCREWED" in his head while projecting that gangsta cool.


I literally lied to a detective (white collar shit, over a decade old, in case anyone is looking for dirt on Anaximander) to his face. I was wondering how ENFPs deal with willful lying to authority types. Does it depend on the individual or are they all likely to feel some remorse or guilt over lying?

I was shitting the hell out of myself as I watched the officer approach my window because with each step he took I would think "Holy fuck that's expired and that's expired and that's expired..." to the point I felt helpless/doomed. Right before I looked-up into the officer's face though...he could have just as well asked "May I see all of your expired and lapsed documents please?"...I just said in my mind "No." <-Once there I was no longer shitting myself/fearful and so I can only assume Obi Wan was shit free as well... which is the only way these things can work is what I think. There was nothing I could say or do...so instead of trying to come up with the 'best lies'... nearly all of my divided focus was directed towards believing the desired outcome would come to pass as envisioned (I'm describing this because it may in fact be how ENFPs approach lying overall idk.) Once it did though I went back to shitting myself.

I can't think of a time when I have willfully lied to authority and experienced remorse/guilt. I mean, I do what I can to not to break the rules/laws to avoid scenarios like I described above...and not (necessarily) because I believe those same rules/laws are fair, just, righteous, etc. Like, with regards to what I just described...I did it so that my own disabilities wouldn't negatively effect people I care about...but I could come up with a million and one ways to justify what I did had I been able to pull it off otherwise. Starting with ratio. For every one time I lie to authority...how many times in multiples of 100 has authority lied to me?

You've got to describe your lying experience...what it was like..

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]
Both of your posts were really interesting, and I suspect most any creative artists can appreciate what you are saying in these about truth.

Concrete facts and actual experience do have limitations because even if you quote all the facts, it doesn't recreate the actual truth of the experience and perception. It sometimes takes metaphor or another distilling, imaginative process to actually convey the deeper truth. Even our own brains attempt to show us truth in this way through some of our dreams.

This is pretty cool.

 

[Poki]

Okay, I was just in the shower and I had more thoughts about this, as if I didn't already type a novel (and maybe covered some of this already - who knows).

There is matter of sensor bias and translating intuitive truths into something others will accept...

People just love "true stories". Movies and novels said to be based on true stories may sell better. People have told me about some movie and how what made it extra good was that it was based on REAL EVENTS! I could give a crap... but other people just love this!

It is a human thing to learn via story-telling - I get that. BUT if it is presented as metaphor, with symbolic language or as a tale, then people may not readily accept it as anything other than entertainment. They just wont get the point. BUt, if it was the real, specific experience of another person, then it becomes more relevant to them.

Ne-dom know this. I have a known a few ENTPs who are very motivational speaker-like and they basically make up stories to get across intuitive truths. But they present these as "real life accounts".

Anytime you hear some kind of motivational talk, I would bet half the stories told to illustrate a point are made up.

It always goes like this:

John was unhappy. He was always the same way, doing the same things. Then one day he was different! And he did different things. And then other things changed for him. John became happier!

The Ne-dom are conveying an intuitive truth about the dynamics of reality. They see potential for change, but other people won't accept it as a truth unless it has been done.

The present culture in the western world is heavily sensory biased. I blame this on the obsession with science and making it the only way to see truth. In past times people seemed to accept intuitive views as truth without it needing to be converted to literal language. Ancient holy books are misunderstood now because in order to accept their truths, people will insist they are factually literal accounts or just fables, not that they could be real accounts told from an intuitive viewpoint.

In short, some Ne types "lie" because sensory culture demands it if they are to get across intuitive truths.

Edit: Ni types do this too...oh yes they do. Probably in a different way. I know many omit "facts" and perhaps do not even "see things".

I know Ne types that eat that stuff up too. It hits F, not sensory, real tugs on the heart even more so.

I am dating an ENFP that tries to pull Intuitive Truths on me all the time and they fall flat. She says i have opened her up to a whole new world that defies all intuition as she knows it. While they have "truth" application is lacking on her part. She is used to incompetent people and people who lack intelligence which has skewed her intuition turning makes sense into true and lack of it as false.

 

[Starry]

I know Ne types that eat that stuff up too. It hits F, not sensory, real tugs on the heart even more so.

I am dating an ENFP that tries to pull Intuitive Truths on me all the time and they fall flat. She says i have opened her up to a whole new world that defies all intuition as she knows it. While they have "truth" application is lacking on her part. She is used to incompetent people and people who lack intelligence which has skewed her intuition turning makes sense into true and lack of it as false.

I really appreciate the respectful way you present your ideas and conclusions. Like, I realize you are drawing larger conclusions from your personal experience...we all do. But there is a great deal of humanity in saying "This is what I have found..." as opposed to "This is." Now I know I'm part of a discussion.


I'm not exactly sure how you are defining "Intuitive Truths". Where you say above "Ne types eat that stuff up" and "It...tugs on the heart"...I almost get the sense you are thinking along the lines of fables and allegories...myths and perhaps 'old wives tales.' <-And if that is the case then Yes! I love that shit. But I'm not convinced this is how [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] meant "Intuitive Truths" and subsequently wonder if you and others may have missed her message.

I don't like to speak for others but I feel pretty confident that what OA was calling "Intuitive Truths" (which I believe she shortened merely for ease of expression) would be defined as "An understanding of reality that did not come by way of sensory, tangible, concrete information/data." <-Much like this isn't something that tugs on my heart...this isn't something me or any other ENFP would be "trying to pull" either...like where you stated above that the ENFP in your life "tries to pull Intuitive Truths on me all the time" made me go wtf? This just is for us. This is how we come to know the world.

Story-telling, fables...this is how we lie. In a world where you guys have the numbers...there are more people that will readily misunderstand or fail to understand what we are saying when we provide first hand accounts of how we came to know reality. And when any group has the numbers they don't have to try and understand. Hell, when a group has the numbers on their side they can even come to a collective conclusion that they do understand or at least understand enough to form a negative opinion. Numbers = evidence (<-truth is a funny thing isn't it?) In a world where I can't really provide first hand accounts of my experience and not be rejected as insane...fables are a very sweet way for me to lie and avoid personal ridicule by reducing my experience into simple childhood fiction and then cross my fingers and hope some form of translation gets through.

When you say that you have opened your ENFP up to intelligence and a world that defies intuition...what are you talking about? I'm thinking you are talking about logic and the scientific method but I don't want to assume. As a scientist though... (I have a lot to say here but will need to come back and edit)

 

[Poki]

I really appreciate the respectful way you present your ideas and conclusions. Like, I realize you are drawing larger conclusions from your personal experience...we all do. But there is a great deal of humanity in saying "This is what I have found..." as opposed to "This is." Now I know I'm part of a discussion.


I'm not exactly sure how you are defining "Intuitive Truths". Where you say above "Ne types eat that stuff up" and "It...tugs on the heart"...I almost get the sense you are thinking along the lines of fables and allegories...myths and perhaps 'old wives tales.' <-And if that is the case then Yes! I love that shit. But I'm not convinced this is how [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] meant "Intuitive Truths" and subsequently wonder if you and others may have missed her message.

I don't like to speak for others but I feel pretty confident that what OA was calling "Intuitive Truths" (which I believe she shortened merely for ease of expression) would be defined as "An understanding of reality that did not come by way of sensory, tangible, concrete information/data." <-Much like this isn't something that tugs on my heart...this isn't something me or any other ENFP would be "trying to pull" either...like where you stated above that the ENFP in your life "tries to pull Intuitive Truths on me all the time" made me go wtf? This just is for us. This is how we come to know the world.

Story-telling, fables...this is how we lie. In a world where you guys have the numbers...there are more people that will readily misunderstand or fail to understand what we are saying when we provide first hand accounts of how we came to know reality. And when any group has the numbers they don't have to try and understand. Hell, when a group has the numbers on their side they can even come to a collective conclusion that they do understand or at least understand enough to form a negative opinion. Numbers = evidence (<-truth is a funny thing isn't it?) In a world where I can't really provide first hand accounts of my experience and not be rejected as insane...fables are a very sweet way for me to lie and avoid personal ridicule by reducing my experience into simple childhood fiction and then cross my fingers and hope some form of translation gets through.

When you say that you have opened your ENFP up to intelligence and a world that defies intuition...what are you talking about? I'm thinking you are talking about logic and the scientific method but I don't want to assume. As a scientist though... (I have a lot to say here but will need to come back and edit)

Actually I was trying to separate a lot of correlations made that span beyond where it was categorically placed.

Lets first take "Intuitive Truths" and the definition..."An understanding of reality that did not come by way of sensory, tangible, concrete information/data."..if you look at that definition it is roughly what I think, there is no inherent "Truth" to it though...its a personal understanding as you have said.

"Pull" is in reference to how I see things...anything that is a debate and or a discussion to me is what "Pull on me" was referring to. It had no connotations of lies or any bad intent from the person. Its simply 2 differing points of view where as one may be right/wrong/or a simply opinion which is neither right nor wrong. Its simply a push/pull back and forth in a debate. Wrong word usage as she is not "pulling my leg", but a "push and pull" discussion. It is how you come to know the world...but Intuition does not have a very good ability to discern correlation with causation. They get grouped together and mixed and matched. What the intelligence does is properly differentiate the correlation/causation which fine tunes the understanding and defying intuition is separation of correlation/causation way above and beyond whats possible without the additional functions I provide. Basically Intuition says this, but reality says something else. I have actually taught her more about herself then she has ever even thought about using examples from real life to compare and contrast.

I live the scientific method, I really don't put any thought or effort into the scientific method. Logic itself is over rated, proper use of it matters more then the logic itself. Logic is like building blocks...the real question is...what are you building.

Will think some more on this. I don't feel like I properly answered it.

 

[Starry]

Poki got in between... this was part of my general comment on science.



^^I will often ask young people "Which is more likely to be disproved and replaced by scientific fact? Old wives tales and the like? Or scientific facts?"

Anyone that has worked in a science department or division and has had to deal with textbooks knows the answer to that. Many science textbooks don't even make it through a quarter session before their facts need to be updated with new facts (Should I include a definition for the meaning of fact?) Science has an advantage though in that they never really needs to come out and say "whoops, we fucked up...even though we had empirical evidence to support that truth... that truth actually ended up not being true...sorry about that." No, all that wrong slips away while people are mesmerized by a new discovery.

Science is a really awesome way to collectively understand and discuss today's reality. To suggest it is the only way to know what is true pertaining to reality is pretty ridiculous imho.

 

[Starry]

Actually I was trying to separate a lot of correlations made that span beyond where it was categorically placed.

Lets first take "Intuitive Truths" and the definition..."An understanding of reality that did not come by way of sensory, tangible, concrete information/data."..if you look at that definition it is roughly what I think, there is no inherent "Truth" to it though...its a personal understanding as you have said.

"Pull" is in reference to how I see things...anything that is a debate and or a discussion to me is what "Pull on me" was referring to. It had no connotations of lies or any bad intent from the person. Its simply 2 differing points of view where as one may be right/wrong/or a simply opinion which is neither right nor wrong. Its simply a push/pull back and forth in a debate. Wrong word usage as she is not "pulling my leg", but a "push and pull" discussion. It is how you come to know the world...but Intuition does not have a very good ability to discern correlation with causation. They get grouped together and mixed and matched. What the intelligence does is properly differentiate the correlation/causation which fine tunes the understanding and defying intuition is separation of correlation/causation way above and beyond whats possible without the additional functions I provide. Basically Intuition says this, but reality says something else. I have actually taught her more about herself then she has ever even thought about using examples from real life to compare and contrast.

I live the scientific method, I really don't put any thought or effort into the scientific method. Logic itself is over rated, proper use of it matters more then the logic itself. Logic is like building blocks...the real question is...what are you building.

Will think some more on this. I don't feel like I properly answered it.

This is an awesome response and I needed to quickly express my appreciation for it. There's substance here that I'm taking (a lot longer) time to process and then hold it up to myself...which is something that I find difficult to do with these singular quirks and complaints. This goes much deeper and I didn't want to leave *dead air* while I consider what you wrote. Thank you (I will most likely have questions)

 

[FemMecha]

...I'm not sure if what I did totally qualifies as lying though...there were so many things wrong and I was so worried that I would be responsible for ruining other people's vacation...that I had to take it to the next level. I was so scared I had to do the Obi Wan. <-Truly...the first thing I heard after it was all over was someone in my car say "What the fuck just happened?" haha. But it was because others were counting on me. I really don't think I could lie my way out of jail unless there was someone else counting on me.

I can totally relate to this. You know the philosophical question, "Would you lie to the Nazi's if they came to your door asking if you were hiding any Jews". I've never comprehended why that is a dilemna. My response is 'no duh I'd lie'. This may come back to the idea of intuitive truths. What I hear the Nazis asking is "are there people in your house I have the right to take and kill?" and my response is the truthful "no, there are no such people here." I will lie to protect people with no regrets.

 

[Starry]

I can totally relate to this. You know the philosophical question, "Would you lie to the Nazi's if they came to your door asking if you were hiding any Jews". I've never comprehended why that is a dilemna. My response is 'no duh I'd lie'. This may come back to the idea of intuitive truths. What I hear the Nazis asking is "are there people in your house I have the right to take and kill?" and my response is the truthful "no, there are no such people here." I will lie to protect people with no regrets.

First, this is from the "ENFPs What's the best compliment you have ever received" thread

One of the dearest people to me... a friend of mine. We had a bit of an awkward start really. We started off as co-workers and she would always ask me to go and do this or that with her.

She's extraordinarily sophisticated though...and I'm quite crazy. She's someone with that solid presence...a strong introvert with that powerful low hum...and I'm a bit scattered and all over the place. Every time we did something I was convinced it would be our last outing until she would ask me to do something again.

And so I asked her finally...wtf? Why does someone like you want to be friends with me? And she said to me...

"Friendship for me is a funny thing..." And it was here she opened-up to me concerning her amazing history. Her grandfather had survived Auschwitz and the trauma of it was deeply embedded in the fabric of her family. She said she can only be friends with a certain kind of person and proceeded to give me my biggest compliment...

"I know you would never turn me over to the Nazis"

Your post totally blew me away...and not just because I was literally thinking about this at this time not knowing I could just come here for the answer. But because you couldn't have presented the answer more eloquently. This is *it* right here.

I had been walking around doing mindless work and wondering "Is it weird that for the times I've intentionally lied I don't feel any type of remorse whatsoever?" <-Like, I had started questioning this for some reason but contemplating it was just beginning to cause me the lowest levels of barely detectable irritation because every explanation/answer that came to me was off.

And they were off and I was experiencing the beginnings of irritation because I was trapped trying to define me and my actions based on my problematic understanding of Sensor/Non-NF truths. <-I've talked about these things a little bit here but normally I never do. No one wants to hear about how challenging life is for NFs or for ENFPs and INFJs... That is basically a one way ticket to "not cool" land at TypoC. But for me now this is just something that *is* When you are heavy on the Intuitive-Feeler and carry shame and total confusion with you from childhood in the "I'm glad that people seem to like me but that doesn't appear to help me feel any less like a total alien from another planet" way... idk...I can unknowingly start to lose track of who I am and start trying to define myself based on criteria that I've been on the outside of my entire life. Criteria that I couldn't measure up to even if I tried (and I have tried very hard which is why I will unknowingly fall into this in the first place.)

You gave me back an Intuitive Truth and I will hold onto it. Thank you so much