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Video: ENFPs lie

PeaceBaby

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^^What I'm describing may not make sense to you idk...but it is very real all the same. To this day it is easy for me to misrepresent myself in highly social situations where I'm meeting new people because I will be distracted by what is usually some sort of celebratory event and making sure I am gracious and people feel good after interacting with me. What's funny to me is my personal Fi system is still just as hardcore...like I'll be getting the emergency alerts and creeping out on myself for something like..."I can't believe I agreed with that person I'll never see again that fettuccine is the best noodle for sauce when I actually think it's linguine." <-But I'm still grateful for it because it keeps me honest and allows me to know myself and know what is real in spite of Ne.

Yes, I relate to this as well. The visceral feelings of the moment are intense. I'll distressingly reflect on these types of lies after the fact and be like, "What was it in this interaction that made me feel like I had to agree rather than state my opinion?" And the best I can come up with is this desire to be accepted, to help everyone enjoy the interaction and not appear disagreeable. (The 7 fix in my tritype?) It's like having this inner knowledge that someone would actually choose to avoid interaction with you for not agreeing that fettucine is the best noodle, that there are (unbelievably) actual ramifications to that opinion. That someone would take a dislike against you or make some type of judgement about you for such an incidental preference. And somehow, it's intuitively understood that one must avoid disagreeing on these incidental things if you want to be able to continue in interaction. Because there's something in desiring a continuity of interaction too... I feel like other types are looking to make a decision and move on, more binary style, on friendship -- whereas I am more, let's interact and see what happens, there's more of an ongoing process of searching for more and more information.

Anyway, your comment struck me and I wanted to share, hope it's not too off-course for the thread.
 

Starry

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Yes, I relate to this as well. The visceral feelings of the moment are intense. I'll distressingly reflect on these types of lies after the fact and be like, "What was it in this interaction that made me feel like I had to agree rather than state my opinion?" And the best I can come up with is this desire to be accepted, to help everyone enjoy the interaction and not appear disagreeable. (The 7 fix in my tritype?) It's like having this inner knowledge that someone would actually choose to avoid interaction with you for not agreeing that fettucine is the best noodle, that there are (unbelievably) actual ramifications to that opinion. That someone would take a dislike against you or make some type of judgement about you for such an incidental preference. And somehow, it's intuitively understood that one must avoid disagreeing on these incidental things if you want to be able to continue in interaction. Because there's something in desiring a continuity of interaction too... I feel like other types are looking to make a decision and move on, more binary style, on friendship -- whereas I am more, let's interact and see what happens, there's more of an ongoing process of searching for more and more information.

Anyway, your comment struck me and I wanted to share, hope it's not too off-course for the thread.


Note to self: When you can't connect all the dots...ask an INFP to do that for you.


This comment is totally on-course and is especially appreciated by me because depending on where I've been on this forum...I will sometimes forget that there are people here that actually know what I'm talking about.

I've lived for so long now having others assign meaning to my behaviors...because they can...that I'm no longer in danger of actually starting to question these things myself (like I notice in a lot of young NFPs...possibly even the dude in this video...) But it is still extraordinarily helpful to hear...to have your experience confirmed for what it actually is.
 

OrangeAppled

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Some of this rings true in my experience with ENFPs and even some INFPs (myself included). I think there is more to it than simply the Ne tendency to focus on the positive or being in the habit of bending the truth.

- Ommitting facts, but not considering it a lie
Can happen because the person is not focused on facts. The information they focus on and remember and are able to impart is intuitve and feeling information. Even if the person knows certain factual information, they may not trust it as readily (knowing their recollection is fuzzy) OR they simply don't consider it relevant. Other people may consider it relevant, perhaps the MOST relevant information, especially when the facts seemingly contradict the intuitive view that has been presented. The NFP trusts the "reading between the lines" as reality, not the so-called facts, because reality is experienced as a changing, moldable thing. Facts seem too static to be relevant (they are too quickly dated), whereas the hunches and feeling values are what is developing (most relevant because we are moving into the future it points to) or what the ultimate meaning is.

Sometimes the person may be filling in the blanks with what they genuinely believe happened or what seems a reasonable explanation, based on the result. This can change, as the next time they discuss it they offer a different possibility as explanation, having forgotten the old one and never having recalled the "reality". In short - they are GUESSING because they dont remember the factual details. Learning to just say you dont remember is an easy solution, except then people wont accept any intuitve based conclusion from you (you cease to be credible, due to sensing bias).

- Emotional Honesty
He is talking about how emotional honesty can create a factual, past-based picture of oneself at odds with an ideal that the person identifies as the "self", and I will add that it can cause unwanted and seemingly unnecessary conflict. IFPs who hold back their emotional honesty end up usually presenting a simple mask and being frustrated/depressed by it, and they usually do it out of a sense of being misunderstood if they reveal themselves. They feel unable to present themselves as their ideal or ashamed if they don't meet it. The honesty feels futile.

ENFPs may hold back because such honesty doesn't usually develop the highest potential for outcomes, and so they present themselves as needed to causes those outcomes. So if a relationship has great potential, and they see a past "fact" as spoiling it, a fact they dont really deem relevant to the unfolding reality, then why mention it? That potential is more valuable to them than "what is" and especially "what has been", so to them it may feel that they are being genuine by upholding ideals, in a way. Also, they may see their own future potential as who they are, not their past conduct. Being experimental people, "bad" past conduct may just be part of a process. The idea that we are our past or that our former actions define us is at odds with Ne mentality, being a highly Si attitude.

- Excessively imaginative + white lies. I have seen very young ENFPs do a thing we see children too - allow their imagination to explain things or they recall what an experience caused them to imagine over what happened. As a child, my ENFP told me how in class the pet tarantula escaped from its cage. When I asked how, she paused, then said, "Well the cage was made of candy, so it ate through it!". She didnt know how it escaped, but her imaginative explanation was a compelling possibility. Okay, kids say silly stuff like that, but this continued to define her personality. With age, her compelling, imagintive possibilities for reality became increasingly hard to detect from the "truth" as far as facts go. In other words, they became less far-fetched and whimsical, making it appear she was lying, perhaps for attention or just because it was more interesting than the facts and would procure more response from people. Essentially, she WAS lying, because she didnt offer it as a "story". Having known her well, I would call her out on it, and then she would just laugh and admit she made it up. But the manipulative nature of this started getting darker, and so we parted ways.... I dont think that defines all or most ENFPs, but I see traces of it here and there, and it is usually quite harmless, as the video notes. I see it INFPs a bit too, as well as ENTPs and to the least degree INTPs.

I wanted to add to the much simpler video because the idea of not realizing one is "lying" or actually believing a particular version of reality can come from having a different experience of what reality is. There are times I think the sensory bias can kind of unfairly invalidate this, and perhaps that is even what leads to the individual "inventing factual information". If the intuitions were accepted in a raw manner, it might clear that up. Take the video's example of the reason for running late - "I overslept". That is a factual reason, but maybe the intuition and feeling values suggest oversleeping due to some deeper frustration with reality, a kind of subconcious protest. Can you say that to people? NOPE. They will roll their eyes and deem it melodramatic BS. But what is the outcome the person deems FIT to the intuitve-feeling reality? One of sympathy, not condemnation. So they tell the white lie to get sympathy. Other times, the person cannot explain what happened. Talking with many who prefer Ne, they just dont know why they, say, ran late. Maybe something caught their attention and they went into some inspired daydream about it, and then 20 minutes past and wham! They are late. They may have no idea how to go about explaining this sort of thing. I've seen some compare it to "ooh shiny object" syndrome, but more so with thoughts/ideas in the mind. This is hard for other people to grasp, so a simpler explanation gets offered.

I will add that MOST ENFPs I know simply do not comment on things they don't have a solid grasp of (if they cant remember, then they just say so) or they note when something is speculative or they are telling a silly story. The extremes of this so-called lying is not typical or many learn rather young the pitfalls of it.

Side note: I hate videos because I could've read a article and gotten the same info 2x as quickly, but here I have to wait for pauses and words often take longer to say than to read. :dry:
 

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Okay, I was just in the shower and I had more thoughts about this, as if I didn't already type a novel (and maybe covered some of this already - who knows).

There is matter of sensor bias and translating intuitive truths into something others will accept...

People just love "true stories". Movies and novels said to be based on true stories may sell better. People have told me about some movie and how what made it extra good was that it was based on REAL EVENTS! I could give a crap... but other people just love this!

It is a human thing to learn via story-telling - I get that. BUT if it is presented as metaphor, with symbolic language or as a tale, then people may not readily accept it as anything other than entertainment. They just wont get the point. BUt, if it was the real, specific experience of another person, then it becomes more relevant to them.

Ne-dom know this. I have a known a few ENTPs who are very motivational speaker-like and they basically make up stories to get across intuitive truths. But they present these as "real life accounts".

Anytime you hear some kind of motivational talk, I would bet half the stories told to illustrate a point are made up.

It always goes like this:

John was unhappy. He was always the same way, doing the same things. Then one day he was different! And he did different things. And then other things changed for him. John became happier!

The Ne-dom are conveying an intuitive truth about the dynamics of reality. They see potential for change, but other people won't accept it as a truth unless it has been done.

The present culture in the western world is heavily sensory biased. I blame this on the obsession with science and making it the only way to see truth. In past times people seemed to accept intuitive views as truth without it needing to be converted to literal language. Ancient holy books are misunderstood now because in order to accept their truths, people will insist they are factually literal accounts or just fables, not that they could be real accounts told from an intuitive viewpoint.

In short, some Ne types "lie" because sensory culture demands it if they are to get across intuitive truths.

Edit: Ni types do this too...oh yes they do. Probably in a different way. I know many omit "facts" and perhaps do not even "see things".
 

cascadeco

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!


Ne-dom know this. I have a known a few ENTPs who are very motivational speaker-like and they basically make up stories to get across intuitive truths. But they present these as "real life accounts".

Anytime you hear some kind of motivational talk, I would bet half the stories told to illustrate a point are made up.

It always goes like this:


Edit: Ni types do this too...oh yes they do. Probably in a different way. I know many omit "facts" and perhaps do not even "see things".

This is fascinating. I haven't thought about it before, but you are probably right. I suppose it's similar to it just being a 'means to an end' - making up stories to deliver the larger message and pull the audience in. (And now if I see such a talk again, I may start thinking: 'Liar!! You made that up!' ;))

Yes, I relate to this as well. The visceral feelings of the moment are intense. I'll distressingly reflect on these types of lies after the fact and be like, "What was it in this interaction that made me feel like I had to agree rather than state my opinion?" And the best I can come up with is this desire to be accepted, to help everyone enjoy the interaction and not appear disagreeable. (The 7 fix in my tritype?) It's like having this inner knowledge that someone would actually choose to avoid interaction with you for not agreeing that fettucine is the best noodle, that there are (unbelievably) actual ramifications to that opinion. That someone would take a dislike against you or make some type of judgement about you for such an incidental preference. And somehow, it's intuitively understood that one must avoid disagreeing on these incidental things if you want to be able to continue in interaction. Because there's something in desiring a continuity of interaction too... I feel like other types are looking to make a decision and move on, more binary style, on friendship -- whereas I am more, let's interact and see what happens, there's more of an ongoing process of searching for more and more information.

I'm now starting to think I may come across much more disagreeable than I actually intend/realize. :blush: I think I'm the person who will be like, 'oh, that's totally cool that you like fettucine, blah blah.... if I had to pick, I think my favorite is actually X', and then because I don't 100% affirm them, I now realize I probably come across incredibly, well, possibly unpleasant / convo ends? It of course won't make a difference with some people, but I have noticed it does with others. Interesting.
 

Virtual ghost

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Whoops...I saw this earlier and forgot to acknowledge it by saying I'm inclined to agree and have even said on more than one occasion..."If I'm lying...it would merely be a byproduct of the fact I am lying to myself."


All I have to say about it is that I have never meet an ENFP that doesn't have problems with S stuff. It is as if the reality does not exist at the moments.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]
Both of your posts were really interesting, and I suspect most any creative artists can appreciate what you are saying in these about truth.

Concrete facts and actual experience do have limitations because even if you quote all the facts, it doesn't recreate the actual truth of the experience and perception. It sometimes takes metaphor or another distilling, imaginative process to actually convey the deeper truth. Even our own brains attempt to show us truth in this way through some of our dreams.
 

Starry

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All I have to say about it is that I have never meet an ENFP that doesn't have problems with S stuff. It is as if the reality does not exist at the moments.


Well, I definitely struggle with S stuff as well as explanations. I can't tell you how many times I've started explaining something only to immediately think "okay, that just made me sound like a total lunatic." For me, a lot of it is being someone that feels compelled to interact with people in the moment but then finding I can't account for all that went into whatever I'm explaining in those moments and getting caught in that. I often think "holy shit, if I could actually explain this people would know such-and-such conclusion was reasonable"...but often at that point I will see it as too monumental a task and just be like...screw it.

edit: whoops I acknowledge though that you see ENFPs as fundamentally impaired. my response was not an effort to change your opinion. <-but this may increase your trouble when dealing with ENFPs now that I'm thinking about it. Any struggles I may have when communicating will be compounded when I'm communicating with someone I can tell has some sort of preconceived opinion of me. I find I make more sense to people that trust I can make sense :wink:
 

PeaceBaby

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- Emotional Honesty
He is talking about how emotional honesty can create a factual, past-based picture of oneself at odds with an ideal that the person identifies as the "self", and I will add that it can cause unwanted and seemingly unnecessary conflict. IFPs who hold back their emotional honesty end up usually presenting a simple mask and being frustrated/depressed by it, and they usually do it out of a sense of being misunderstood if they reveal themselves. They feel unable to present themselves as their ideal or ashamed if they don't meet it. The honesty feels futile.

Enjoyed your whole post, but this resonates especially. Not so much presenting as the ideal, but knowing however something is presented it's most likely going to be met with confusion rather than connection.
 

Virtual ghost

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Well, I definitely struggle with S stuff as well as explanations. I can't tell you how many times I've started explaining something only to immediately think "okay, that just made me sound like a total lunatic." For me, a lot of it is being someone that feels compelled to interact with people in the moment but then finding I can't account for all that went into whatever I'm explaining in those moments and getting caught in that. I often think "holy shit, if I could actually explain this people would know such-and-such conclusion was reasonable"...but often at that point I will see it as too monumental a task and just be like...screw it.

edit: whoops I acknowledge though that you see ENFPs as fundamentally impaired. my response was not an effort to change your opinion. <-but this may increase your trouble when dealing with ENFPs now that I'm thinking about it. Any struggles I may have when communicating will be compounded when I'm communicating with someone I can tell has some sort of preconceived opinion of me. I find I make more sense to people that trust I can make sense :wink:


I believe that this post counts as S fail as well. :D

I mean I get what you are saying but the randomness of thought is all over the place.
To tell you the truth I have a ENFP mother that probably has exactly the same typing as you and she is regularly annoyed when and how easily I deconstruct her words. Basically everything is either connection with little to no concrete substance or value that can easily countered as unrealistic or something similar. My mom loves me but she thinks that I am too much of a "jerk" sometimes. This is one of the reasons why I thought that I am introvert ... while I just skiped converations in order not to piss people of the way I did my parents.
 

Starry

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I believe that this post counts as S fail as well. :D

I mean I get what you are saying but the randomness of thought is all over the place.
To tell you the truth I have a ENFP mother that probably has exactly the same typing as you and she is regularly annoyed when and how easily I deconstruct her words. Basically everything is either connection with little to no concrete substance or value that can easily countered as unrealistic or something similar. My mom loves me but she thinks that I am too much of a "jerk" sometimes. This is one of the reasons why I thought that I am introvert ... while I just skiped converations in order not to piss people of the way I did my parents.


And here I was convinced my post was an S-success! haha. (Seriously, while I was referring to things I have no evidence for it at least made sense).

Anyway, yes, I did know your Mom was ENFP and depending on the needs of the child I could see how that lot could end-up being especially challenging so you have my sympathy there.

I will tell you though that I do like it when people deconstruct my words when it isn't an interruption to a larger message I'm attempting to deliver. This is due to some of the communication challenges I just referred to. Unpacking something larger from my brain and trying to get it lined-up properly for the linearly inclined is not easy for me...so when someone attacks a detail prior to me stating my main point/finding I can feel like "holy hell let me just get this out and then we can back track". Oh and I can also become distracted by a person's agenda if it is obvious but hidden to them or if they are aware of their motivations but not upfront about it imo. But other than that I truly like having people deconstruct what I have said because it is during those times that I can see where I have left gaping holes in my arguments or did not connect certain dots <-and often times once I do I will get a positive response because what I may have explained in its intuitive leap form was most likely held up to logic as well.

And I don't think you are a jerk at all. You seem a bit biased but understanding and kind as well.
 

Virtual ghost

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And here I was convinced my post was an S-success! haha. (Seriously, while I was referring to things I have no evidence for it at least made sense).

I said that it is S fail mosty because you edited the post in a "I missunderstood kind of a way". It is back and forward post.


I will tell you though that I do like it when people deconstruct my words when it isn't an interruption to a larger message I'm attempting to deliver. This is due to some of the communication challenges I just referred to. Unpacking something larger from my brain and trying to get it lined-up properly for the linearly inclined is not easy for me...so when someone attacks a detail prior to me stating my main point/finding I can feel like "holy hell let me just get this out and then we can back track". Oh and I can also become distracted by a person's agenda if it is obvious but hidden to them or if they are aware of their motivations but not upfront about it imo. But other than that I truly like having people deconstruct what I have said because it is during those times that I can see where I have left gaping holes in my arguments or did not connect certain dots <-and often times once I do I will get a positive response because what I may have explained in its intuitive leap form was most likely held up to logic as well.

You like it even when someone cuts your Fi in half ?


And I don't think you are a jerk at all. You seem a bit biased but understanding and kind as well.

Biased ? I think "goal oriented" might be a better fit here. :D
 

Starry

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I said that it is S fail mosty because you edited the post in a "I missunderstood kind of a way". It is back and forward post.


I liked your response to me. Your wit is your own but I also see the NTJs ability to take the truth or their truth in its most concise form and yet present it in the most clever way haha. To me this is art.

I didn't understand the above though *nervous*. Of all the interpretations I made though...the only one that would cause me any concern would be if you think what I've been expressing here is something along the lines of "Virtual Ghost you are misunderstanding" something with regards to ENFPs. <-And if that is the case I must immediately correct that with a shit-ton of randomness :wink:

At the end of the day...I have no idea what you believe as it pertains to the ENFP type. What I can say is I have never seen a positive or even neutral comment about ENFPs out of you. Not saying you haven't made one...just that I have never seen such a comment myself. I've only seen negative comments which...let me make this perfectly clear...is fine by me. People are entitled to their opinions - this is something we all pay lip service to. But it is my hope at least that the people close to me know that I really believe that shit. I would never want to rob someone of their opinion.

Now, everyone knows *goal orientation* is fucking cool. Goal orientation brings all the boys to the yard...it's what puts you guys at the apex of the MBTI...not to mention today's modern world... But the goal oriented can confuse me and the other randoms because they often present their opinions as facts even in instances when they haven't confused the two by believing they are one in the same. <-This is what I don't know about you.

You have a tendency to speak in sweeping generalizations...at least as far as ENFPs are concerned.

When you say something along the lines of "ENFPs have no true grasp of reality" I'm inclined to think there's something you are misunderstanding about us as a type and will respond as respectfully as I can due to the fact your comment is available to anyone on the internet. But it remains unclear to me if you see your statements as fact or opinion and am not making a definitive statement either way.





You like it even when someone cuts your Fi in half ?

Whoa. I did not know this was part of the deconstruction. :wink:
 

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At the end of the day...I have no idea what you believe as it pertains to the ENFP type. What I can say is I have never seen a positive or even neutral comment about ENFPs out of you. Not saying you haven't made one...just that I have never seen such a comment myself. I've only seen negative comments which...let me make this perfectly clear...is fine by me. People are entitled to their opinions - this is something we all pay lip service to. But it is my hope at least that the people close to me know that I really believe that shit. I would never want to rob someone of their opinion.

Now, everyone knows *goal orientation* is fucking cool. Goal orientation brings all the boys to the yard...it's what puts you guys at the apex of the MBTI...not to mention today's modern world... But the goal oriented can confuse me and the other randoms because they often present their opinions as facts even in instances when they haven't confused the two by believing they are one in the same. <-This is what I don't know about you.

You have a tendency to speak in sweeping generalizations...at least as far as ENFPs are concerned.

When you say something along the lines of "ENFPs have no true grasp of reality" I'm inclined to think there's something you are misunderstanding about us as a type and will respond as respectfully as I can due to the fact your comment is available to anyone on the internet. But it remains unclear to me if you see your statements as fact or opinion and am not making a definitive statement either way.


I don't think that I was completely negative always, but you are correct I am generally negative about ENFP. Which is because of my mother that didn't rise me because "we are all individuals anyway so what is the point of doing that". She isn't a person that can work on a scheduel at all: She is often late for an hour or more (even on work), she can forget about the lunch in owen (what makes it uneatable), 80% percent of her answers are "we will see", she is pathologically messy, spends more than she has, thinks you are paranoid if you don't want to eat something that is clearly over expiry date etc etc. I had ENFP friends who didn't respect deals, If we had a deal that you come to my place at 3 then that is what you should do ... but no he had to go to some random place without saying anything about that (and that had multiple times). Once we had to work on a serious asignment and the ENFP went on trip around the country. ENFPs can drag you into their games without having a stable goal so you can get lost with them, they change facts with their mood, they are likely to generally present themselves as smarter than they are (at least that is my personal opinion, I mean all this intelligence does not mean much if you don't actively use it upon the world). They called me all kinds of things: from robot to idiot or sociopath and tried to diagnose me all kinds things ... etc etc.


There is no other type that gave me so much grief as ENFPs. (not even close)
 

Starry

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I don't think that I was completely negative always, but you are correct I am generally negative about ENFP. Which is because of my mother that didn't rise me because "we are all individuals anyway so what is the point of doing that". She isn't a person that can work on a scheduel at all: She is often late for an hour or more (even on work), she can forget about the lunch in owen (what makes it uneatable), 80% percent of her answers are "we will see", she is pathologically messy, spends more than she has, thinks you are paranoid if you don't want to eat something that is clearly over expiry date etc etc. I had ENFP friends who didn't respect deals, If we had a deal that you come to my place at 3 then that is what you should do ... but no he had to go to some random place without saying anything about that (and that had multiple times). Once we had to work on a serious asignment and the ENFP went on trip around the country. ENFPs can drag you into their games without having a stable goal so you can get lost with them, they change facts with their mood, they are likely to generally present themselves as smarter than they are (at least that is my personal opinion, I mean all this intelligence does not mean much if you don't actively use it upon the world). They called me all kinds of things: from robot to idiot or sociopath and tried to diagnose me all kinds things ... etc etc.


There is no other type that gave me so much grief as ENFPs. (not even close)


Well, know that ENFPs are not even immune to ENFP troubles. Of all the people that have disappointed me in my life the worst of it has been done by NFs and, yes, a couple of those were my own people.

I know in a way this just came up... but I wish there were a variety of places people could discuss these things. In the past it seemed we had multiple threads for each type which were helpful in the way they guided responses. Like, if you just wanted to bitch about XXXXs...there was a thread for that. Or if you had a specific question you wanted answered...there was a thread for that, etc. I think this stuff is so important to talk about but am unclear in these discussion threads if I should counter these broad statements as if the person is actually misunderstanding an entire type or assume the person is merely venting...etc.

Either way I hope you continue to comment regarding your ENFP experience.
 

Virtual ghost

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Well, know that ENFPs are not even immune to ENFP troubles. Of all the people that have disappointed me in my life the worst of it has been done by NFs and, yes, a couple of those were my own people.

I know in a way this just came up... but I wish there were a variety of places people could discuss these things. In the past it seemed we had multiple threads for each type which were helpful in the way they guided responses. Like, if you just wanted to bitch about XXXXs...there was a thread for that. Or if you had a specific question you wanted answered...there was a thread for that, etc. I think this stuff is so important to talk about but am unclear in these discussion threads if I should counter these broad statements as if the person is actually misunderstanding an entire type or assume the person is merely venting...etc.

Either way I hope you continue to comment regarding your ENFP experience.


"The problem" is that I am from fairly unstructured society and ENFPs are defensive about their randomness just as typical American SJ would be about their values. However for me too much randomness is toxic since I am something like 100% J. Therefore coexisting can be a challenge and I may not feel good around them by default ... since they don't satisfy one of my core needs.
 

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"The problem" is that I am from fairly unstructured society and ENFPs are defensive about their randomness just as typical American SJ would be about their values. However for me too much randomness is toxic since I am something like 100% J. Therefore coexisting can be a challenge and I may not feel good around them by default ... since they don't satisfy one of my core needs.


I feel a housing swap comin' on!

No, I know exactly how you feel! and it's pretty awful frankly. Toxic is actually a decent word to describe what the experience often feels like...I never thought of that. It is insulting too when people that have no concept of what you go through on a daily basis try and "help" you by saying "well, I have this problem" and "I don't fit-in in this way" <-I'm sorry, no. Not until you don't fit-in in all ways do I truly care to hear about your struggle.

Survival is difficult enough without the structures that surround you also demanding that you bend yourself into a painful pretzel as well. It is exhausting when you are the one that is always required to bend...and then for those times you were unable to compromise yourself enough (this is my favorite part) this grave error is subsequently assigned all kinds of false, negative meaning. I don't know what meaning gets assigned to you in your culture...but like I was trying to explain in the other ENFP thread...the concept of *passive aggression* in my country is enough to cause me to come undone. I don't just get to be...irresponsible, incompetent and worthless (whoops also too emotional, too attached to justice, cares too much, too sensitive) when I don't get myself twisted enough...at times I'm also accused of doing these things subconsciously in order to hurt people. So fun.

I very much sympathize. I'm just trying each day to carve my own path outside of the structures...and to always remember who I am with a sense of gratitude.
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,872
I feel a housing swap comin' on!

I know a number of P people who said that to me here. :)

No, I know exactly how you feel! and it's pretty awful frankly. Toxic is actually a decent word to describe what the experience often feels like...I never thought of that. It is insulting too when people that have no concept of what you go through on a daily basis try and "help" you by saying "well, I have this problem" and "I don't fit-in in this way" <-I'm sorry, no. Not until you don't fit-in in all ways do I truly care to hear about your struggle.


Well, I don't want to play blame game with entire type. However ENFPs are likely not to satisfy some of my needs. (the J stuff mostly)
In many ways I was actually the parent to my Sx FP parents, therefore I like people for which I will not have to care too much in practical sense. It was surreal in a way: which child had the honor to say stuff like "Just clean up your room already, it is a total mess" or "JESUS, quiet down that music! I have exam tomorrow at 8 AM". Or I had to wake them up in the morning so that they aren't late for work.

However for me that was actually horrible since I could not relate to others of my age. Since at home I had something that no one has. (plus I started to work at the age of 14 as part of my education)



Survival is difficult enough without the structures that surround you also demanding that you bend yourself into a painful pretzel as well. It is exhausting when you are the one that is always required to bend...and then for those times you were unable to compromise yourself enough (this is my favorite part) this grave error is subsequently assigned all kinds of false, negative meaning. I don't know what meaning gets assigned to you in your culture...but like I was trying to explain in the other ENFP thread...the concept of *passive aggression* in my country is enough to cause me to come undone. I don't just get to be...irresponsible, incompetent and worthless (whoops also too emotional, too attached to justice, cares too much, too sensitive) when I don't get myself twisted enough...at times I'm also accused of doing these things subconsciously in order to hurt people. So fun.


To be honest I don't have a problem with bending if I see how it is for the greater good and I generally don't have a problem being a part of some system. (So-dom) However I have a serious problem when this has to be done for someone's amusement, power abuse or it is made on obviously bad logic. Just yesterday my father dragged me into a little "game" and I openly betrayed him by saying that I was never on his side and that he is making up the story. What can give me bad rep since I don't want to play games with people and sympatize with their positions or emotions for which I don't see justification. I am aware how horrible this sounds but supporting people's pathology is something that I consider to be counter productive.


Due the general social dynamic and inferior Fi it took me some time to understand this about myself but I can't have a fulfiled life without things being settled in the end. Even if that will cause intimidation or two and I will have to go through the wall sometimes.
 
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
1,447
MBTI Type
*NF*
Enneagram
852
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Oh god :doh: Thanks to this short video _the man says he has no time to speak to us ! :mad::wtf:_ I can in the end sleep soundly. I feel good : only ENFP do lie :content:
 

EcK

The Memes Justify the End
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
7,707
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
738
No it's not.
hillary-clinton-winking-AP-640x480.jpg

It'd be kind of funny if someone actually tried to tell the WHOLE TRUTH.
"so it all started in a dark dark place, well not really a place but.. and then BANG"
*are you saying you heard gun shots*
"no man, the Big Bang"
*judge facepalms himself*

I mean its technically 'impossible' to tell the whole truth. Noone has the whole truth.
 
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