The Dangerous Case Of Donald Trump

[Maou]

OK. I don't really think they're doing anything to make me safer, though, and they're making things a lot less safer for other citizens.

ICE doesn't do anything to actual citizens. But if one is of questionable citizenship, just like police. They have the right to question you. And just like police, they can make mistakes. As someone who worked as a security officer, I can highly empathize with people who have to do the dirty work.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

ICE doesn't do anything to actual citizens.
But if one is of questionable citizenship, just like police. They have the right to question you.

They do, though. See a few posts back. Being of "questionable citizenship" does not mean you aren't an actual citizen.

 

[Jaguar]

ICE doesn't do anything to actual citizens.

You must never turn on the news. Ever.

U.S. citizen freed after nearly a month in immigration custody, family says:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...-cpb-us-citizen-detained-texas/?noredirect=on

In Texas alone, the Cato Institute estimated that ICE had wrongfully placed detainers — requests to local jails to hold a person in custody so ICE can pick them up — on hundreds of U.S. citizens between 2006 and 2017.

 

[Maou]

You must never turn on the news. Ever.

U.S. citizen freed after nearly a month in immigration custody, family says:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...-cpb-us-citizen-detained-texas/?noredirect=on

In Texas alone, the Cato Institute estimated that ICE had wrongfully placed detainers — requests to local jails to hold a person in custody so ICE can pick them up — on hundreds of U.S. citizens between 2006 and 2017.

Since you quoted me, I guess its okay to violate the little no contact agreement one time.
[MENTION=4660]Julius_Van_Der_Beak[/MENTION] I cannot multiquote on mobile. So adding you to this.

This doesn't prove ICE is ineffective, it proves they are capable of mistakes. The media simply brought a common problem with any government institution to light, and tried to blame it all on the president. Are you gonna abolish police for sending people to prison for crimes they didn't do? Are you just gonna abolish the military for accidentally bombing their own men? These things are not exclusive to ICE. Things can happen, ICE has human employees. Also ~250 people? That's it? USA has 320 million people. It is literally a smaller margin of error than most institutions. It is blow out of proportion, and shouldn't be an argument. You should always consider room for human error in any enforcement. This is literally a non-issue.

 

[The Cat]

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Imagine the ruin to one’s life after a month of wrongful imprisonment. Where is the outrage from the so-called strict constitutionalists?

If some of Trump’s constitutionalist supporters really cared about upholding the constitution, then they wouldn’t keep giving him passes. Regarding comments that he shouldn't be to blame for every little mishap or mistake of ICE, well, as commander-in-chief of the executive branch, the buck does kinda stop with him. He has the power to hold agencies responsible for their mistakes and to implement changes to their procedure to limit similar future mistakes, if he actually cares enough. But I don't think he does care, I think he cares about protecting his image and protecting his properties from hurricane damage, and whether or not he can receive a medal of honor normally awarded to people who actually served in the military and didn't get excused due to bone spurs.

 

[ceecee]

Not with enough efficiency, Homeland Security was swamped. That's why it was created. To resolve the problem. In the largest restructuring in recent history.

ICE is a domestic entity, it wasn't dealing with countering transnational crime for a couple years. What exactly was Homeland Security swamped with in it's inception? Department of Homeland Security itself had existed for a little more than ONE YEAR at that point. DHS is a bloated behemoth I rarely hear Republicans mention it in the same way they mention domestic programs that serve the people. But they can't tell me what in the hell, including during the Cold War, this country did prior to 9/11, when there were far more threats to national security.

 

[The Cat]

Questioning citizens are always scarier than questionable ones. Politicians have historically loved questionable citizens, they're so easy to blame for things. It's often a bonus if they can make the former the latter. But hey, as long as the trains run on time right? Pity about where they tend to go though.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Questioning citizens are always scarier than questionable ones. Politicians have historically loved questionable citizens, they're so easy to blame for things. It's often a bonus if they can make the former the latter. But hey, as long as the trains run on time right? Pity about where they tend to go though.

Your papers, please.

 

[Maou]

Imagine the ruin to one’s life after a month of wrongful imprisonment. Where is the outrage from the so-called strict constitutionalists?

If some of Trump’s constitutionalist supporters really cared about upholding the constitution, then they wouldn’t keep giving him passes. Regarding comments that he shouldn't be to blame for every little mishap or mistake of ICE, well, as commander-in-chief of the executive branch, the buck does kinda stop with him. He has the power to hold agencies responsible for their mistakes and to implement changes to their procedure to limit similar future mistakes, if he actually cares enough. But I don't think he does care, I think he cares about protecting his image and protecting his properties from hurricane damage, and whether or not he can receive a medal of honor normally awarded to people who actually served in the military and didn't get excused due to bone spurs.

No policy can fix "human error". Its already as limited as it can get. The proportion of wrongful imprisonment to the total population that crosses the border is practically non-existant. Pretty sure fake rape accusations are higher in number by the 1000s. Your standard is quite literally impossible to uphold. One man cannot oversee 100s of 1000s of people employed in the USA government. He has to rely on others, and they can make mistakes too. The kind of power people think the president has is kinda mindboggling. And how do you know he isn't holding agencies responsible, and the media isn't reporting on it because it violates their narrative? Look at it logically, and realistically. We do not have all the information for one. Look at what happens in any agency, business, whatever, fill in the gaps with what we do know commonly happens. Where do you see things going wrong in your daily work, and multiply that by millions? Now imagine it run by less competent people, with worse tools compared to private companies. That is the USA government.

I'm not going to lambast a guy for being unable to do the impossible, nor get outraged at things that happen all the time in regular local settings that are impossible to avoid all the time. Unlike 99% of the people in this thread, I look at Trump and the government as a human. It is human structure, that makes human mistakes. If you were never considering mistakes as part of normal everyday life, you are not seeing the big picture.

ICE is a domestic entity, it wasn't dealing with countering transnational crime for a couple years. What exactly was Homeland Security swamped with in it's inception? Department of Homeland Security itself had existed for a little more than ONE YEAR at that point. DHS is a bloated behemoth I rarely hear Republicans mention it in the same way they mention domestic programs that serve the people. But they can't tell me what in the hell, including during the Cold War, this country did prior to 9/11, when there were far more threats to national security.

Not sure, but USA has a lot of enemies.

Its probably because they evolved with the times too, and had to reform. Then new types of threats started evolving like cyber warfare, and other global spying and intervention etc.

 

[Justin of Flavia Neapolis]

There does seem to be an odd dissonance among those who advocate for "smaller government" advocating the continuance of a government bureau such as ICE.

Maybe "smaller government" isn't what should be defended, but "responsible government" is, but that sounds like it would be an oxymoron.

 

[The Cat]

Ice is much better crushed.

 

[Maou]

There does seem to be an odd dissonance among those who advocate for "smaller government" advocating the continuance of a government bureau such as ICE.

Don't mistake dealing with what you have vs your dream government.

 

[The Cat]

Everyone deals with what they have, they are not however obliged to be satisfied with it, nor does it make the circumstance sustainable.

 

[Justin of Flavia Neapolis]

Don't mistake dealing with what you have vs your dream government.

I hear ya.

 

[Maou]

Everyone deals with what they have, they are not however obliged to be satisfied with it, nor does it make the circumstance sustainable.

Yes, but trying to advocate going from A to Z, and none of the in between progress steps is impractical. A house requires a foundation, and you can't put the roof on before the walls.

 

[The Cat]

Yes, but trying to advocate going from A to Z, and none of the in between progress steps is impractical. A house requires a foundation, and you can't put the roof on before the walls.

But of course, however, I think many are justifiably concerned with what is being built. Many have no wish to live in a prison.

 

[ceecee]

Not sure, but USA has a lot of enemies.

Its probably because they evolved with the times too, and had to reform. Then new types of threats started evolving like cyber warfare, and other global spying and intervention etc.

All of these threats existed prior to 9/11. the Patriot Act and the inception of the Department of Homeland Security. And more. And somehow the US managed without unconstitutional violations to the 4th Amendment, without surveillance and intrusion on American citizens, and without incarceration of American citizens, without a hearing on the basis of "legitimate naturalization process", in addition to actual 1st Amendment free speech violations.

You people love to cite your constitutional rights, here's your chance. Why aren't you educating yourself on your claims and fighting against a government bent on whittling as many of them away as they can?

 

[Maou]

All of these threats existed prior to 9/11. the Patriot Act and the inception of the Department of Homeland Security. And more. And somehow the US managed without unconstitutional violations to the 4th Amendment, without surveillance and intrusion on American citizens, and without incarceration of American citizens, without a hearing on the basis of "legitimate naturalization process", in addition to actual 1st Amendment free speech violations.

You people love to cite your constitutional rights, here's your chance. Why aren't you educating yourself on your claims and fighting against a government bent on whittling as many of them away as they can?

But boarder patrol wouldn't incarcerate citizens knowingly, it incarcerated people who could possibly have false documentation, aka not a citizen and its already been discussed how rare it is. You'd be hard pressed to prevent any crime if all you needed was a few words at the border. People do lie you know. So as far as I see it, ICE simply detained people they thought were illegal aliens trying to cross illegally. If they made a mistake, which is possible. The person should be compensated. Otherwise, it is not a violation of constitutional rights, because non-citizens do not possess them normally.

And no, threats do not remain static. The issues facing USA have changed, as technology has evolved.

Also, just because the past allowed people to break the law, doesn't mean its okay to keep letting it happen. That is a fallacy.

I don't agree with spying either, but I do agree with enforcement of the law.

 

[ceecee]

But boarder patrol wouldn't incarcerate citizens knowingly, it incarcerated people who could possibly have false documentation, aka not a citizen and its already been discussed how rare it is. You'd be hard pressed to prevent any crime if all you needed was a few words at the border. People do lie you know. So as far as I see it, ICE simply detained people they thought were illegal aliens trying to cross illegally. If they made a mistake, which is possible. The person should be compensated. Otherwise, it is not a violation of constitutional rights, because non-citizens do not possess them normally.

And no, threats do not remain static. The issues facing USA have changed, as technology has evolved.

Also, just because the past allowed people to break the law, doesn't mean its okay to keep letting it happen. That is a fallacy.

I don't agree with spying either, but I do agree with enforcement of the law.

I have to give you credit on the way you simplify and dismiss nuance and specifics in your arguments - sounds like a worry free way to live.