Multiple Enneagram Subtypes/Instincts Social Last Support Group

[Peter Deadpan]

To be honest I think that the good chunk of stuff in this thread is more related to toxic environment than being So last.

How would you know?

 

[Virtual ghost]

How would you know?

If there is someone here that knows something about toxic unfriendly environment that is probably me. I mean the whole thing made a major distortion on my persona that took the effort to fix.

Here is how my variant test looked some 10 year ago.

Sexual |||||| 14%
Social |||||| 18%
Self Preservation |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 90%

Therefore I claim that everyone who really really isn't interested in social stuff is almost certainly the person that grew up in bad/toxic environment. As a matter of fact I know more real life examples of this.
I even used to think that I have the same tritype archetype as you due to this, but I just don't have emo/reactive stuff of e4.

 

[rav3n]

If there is someone here that knows something about toxic unfriendly environment that is probably me. I mean the whole thing made a major distortion on my persona that took the effort to fix.

Here is how my variant test looked some 10 year ago.

Sexual |||||| 14%
Social |||||| 18%
Self Preservation |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 90%

Therefore I claim that everyone who really really isn't interested in social stuff is almost certainly the person that grew up in bad/toxic environment. As a matter of fact I know more real life examples of this.
I even used to think that I have the same tritype archetype as you due to this, but I just don't have emo/reactive stuff of e4.

Chicken/egg argument.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

If there is someone here that knows something about toxic unfriendly environment that is probably me. I mean the whole thing made a major distortion on my persona that took the effort to fix.

Here is how my variant test looked some 10 year ago.

Sexual |||||| 14%
Social |||||| 18%
Self Preservation |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 90%

Therefore I claim that everyone who really really isn't interested in social stuff is almost certainly the person that grew up in bad/toxic environment. As a matter of fact I know more real life examples of this.
I even used to think that I have the same tritype archetype as you due to this, but I just don't have emo/reactive stuff of e4.

I don't necessarily disagree with the nurture influence, but Bechimo is right. I think we are probably predisposed to certain characteristics and that environment will further mold that.

I'd love to see more research on enneagram and instincts, like perhaps looking at separated twins later in life, but I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Chicken/egg argument.

Exactly my point.
Under certain circumstances all you can get from egg is chicken.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Exactly my point.
Under certain circumstances all you can get from egg is chicken.

I have a random question that is truly not intended to insult but rather act as a small experiment to test a theory: Have you ever wondered if you were a sociopath?

***Not even remotely implying you are, just wondering about your own thought processes***

(This also has nothing to do with this thread or comment, so feel free to move it to Off Topic)

 

[rav3n]

I don't necessarily disagree with the nurture influence, but Bechimo is right. I think we are probably predisposed to certain characteristics and that environment will further mold that.

I'd love to see more research on enneagram and instincts, like perhaps looking at separated twins later in life, but I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon.

Science backs this up. In order for behavioural genes to express, they require environmental triggers.

Also, are instinctual variants inherent? Don't think I've seen any literature that states this, which doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't anything out there.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Science backs this up. In order for behavioural genes to express, they require environmental triggers.

Also, are instinctual variants inherent? Don't think I've seen any literature that states this, which doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't anything out there.

I have heard that enneagram type is inherent but nothing of instincts. Much of the literature I've read about instincts does mention formative circumstances in the descriptions, so it may be implied.

 

[rav3n]

I have heard that enneagram type is inherent but nothing of instincts. Much of the literature I've read about instincts does mention formative circumstances in the descriptions, so it may be implied.

Yeah, I was applying inherency from the base level of DNA, rather than DNA + RNA impact.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I have a random question that is truly not intended to insult but rather act as a small experiment to test a theory: Have you ever wondered if you were a sociopath?

***Not even remotely implying you are, just wondering about your own thought processes***

(This also has nothing to do with this thread or comment, so feel free to move it to Off Topic)

Of course I did and I made quite a few jokes at my own expense that I actually am.
But not really: socipath wouldn't make extra effort to give the poor on regular basis, it probably wouldn't go out to get the food and meds for someone during the snow storm, it wouldn't help the blind guy to finnish the college, it wouldn't bail out the family member .... etc. I can be socially awkward but my work/impact can hardly be called sociopatic actually.


Neither you are the first woman who asked me something like this.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Of course I did and I made quite a few jokes at my own expense that I actually am.
But not really: socipath wouldn't make extra effort to give the poor on regular basis, it probably wouldn't go out to get the food and meds for someone during the snow storm, it wouldn't help the blind guy to finnish the college, it wouldn't bail out the family member .... etc. I can be socially awkward but my work/impact can hardly be called sociopatic actually.


Neither you are the first woman who asked me something like this.

I haven't known an INTx 5 So/Sp who doesn't frequently ask themselves this.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I haven't known an INTx 5 So/Sp who doesn't frequently ask themselves this.

That is normal to expect since the combination overlaps with sociopathy in a few areas. Like being coldblooded, smart and determined.

 

[rav3n]

ASPD has significant correlation with the NTP profile. So does the old sadistic personality disorder.

https://www.uccs.edu/Documents/dseg...igation-Jungs-types-and-PD-features-JPT-2.pdf

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I feel like we've ruined this thread.

 

[Hive]

Reminds me of a Bill Hicks quote.

"People who hate people, come together!"
"... No."

 

[Qlip]

Reminds me of a Bill Hicks quote.

"People who hate people, come together!"
"... No."

Says a dude who chose to put himself in front of a crowd as a way to live. I've listened to a lot of comedian interviews, it seems like being a comedian is exactly that ^^^, an anti-social club. I mean, we're all here on TypoC, aren't we?

 

[brainheart]

Yeah^. In other words, people like me (a card-carrying hermit) are boned when it comes to job-hunting. :/

yep. I'm doing this whole program that teaches you how to be a freelance writer- in theory, a job I am essentially made for- but then you get to the part about the necessity of social networking and social media and all I can think is, ah here comes my nemesis to stab me in the back again, thwarting my every move.

That said, I'm trying to find a way to sidestep the whole social media bs, find my own way of making it happen. I'm hoping I'll get some tips from this book: Firefly Magic: Heart Powered Marketing for Highly Sensitive Writers: Lauren Sapala: 9780998853628: Amazon.com: Books

(ps I should add that I published a book last year but I am totally dying when it comes to the marketing aspect of it, because marketing is essentially being adept at using the social instinct, and more importantly, wanting to use it.)

Also, I didn't grow up in a toxic environment. Maybe potentially hazardous, but not toxic. My parents and siblings love me and are plenty supportive. I am the youngest of many kids with a huge extended family so you'd think I'd be hyper knowledgeable and into the social instinct. But it exhausts the hell out of me. It's like trying to read a People magazine.

 

[brainheart]

For those confused by what the social instinct means, I think this describes it well, from How The System Works — The Enneagram Institute:

Social (aka “Adaptive”) Instinct

Just as many people tend to misidentify themselves as Sexual types because they want one-on-one relationships, many people fail to recognize themselves as Social types because they get the (false) idea that this means always being involved in groups, meetings, and parties. If Self-Preservation types are interested in adjusting the environment to make themselves more secure and comfortable, Social types adapt themselves to serve the needs of the social situation they find themselves in. Thus, Social types are highly aware of other people, whether they are in intimate situations or in groups. They are also aware of how their actions and attitudes are affecting those around them. Moreover, Sexual types seek intimacy, Social types seek personal connection: they want to stay in long-term contact with people and to be involved in their world. Social types are the most concerned with doing things that will have some impact on their community, or even broader domains. They tend to be warmer, more open, engaging, and socially responsible than the other two types. In their primary relationships, they seek partners with whom they can share social activities, wanting their intimates to get involved in projects and events with them. Paradoxically, they actually tend to avoid long periods of exclusive intimacy and quiet solitude, seeing both as potentially limiting.] Social types lose their sense of identity and meaning when they are not involved with others in activities that transcend their individual interests.

I am married to someone who is social first, so I feel like I have an intimate awareness of the instinct, while it still is last in my stacking. It is a primary source of tension between the two of us, precisely for all the reasons listed above, esp the bolded. I didn't know that I was a social last four when we met and married, but I guess intuitively I knew my savior would be someone to deal with things I suck at, while still being a softie. Therefore, social first ESFP 6w7.

What I notice between myself and other social-lasters is that the social instinct seems like a sort of magic trick that we don't know how to do. (As someone who is completely incompetent when it comes to math, I also perceive it as akin to being good at math.) People who know how to 'do' social are really good at getting along with/relating to others. I know people see social (first? second?) Kurt Cobain as being an anomaly or antisocial or something, but the dude was in a band. He was part of the music scene. Thousands/millions identified with his music. Smells like Teen Spirit became an anthem. Kurt and Courtney were always together, like John and Yoko. And yet he was an obvious introvert. I don't think those things happen if you're a social last introvert, esp if you're on the 4/5 side of things.

 

[Bush]

I'm excellent at networking if it's a one-on-one or a clear opportunity, but I'm no mingler. I can deal very well with a colleague of a colleague, if someone else initiates, when it's clear that we share an interest, or if I know for certain that talking to some specific person will help me. I used to be pretty good at mingling, but I ultimately decided that it's too exhausting to bother with. I've got an online career presence, which is great because it's passive.

I also can't carve out time to devote to a large circle of friends, which

I had to become comfortable with the fact that it's not for me, since the outward-facing notion is that everybody does it.

But my wife is a so-first, so it ain't so bad anyway. She can coordinate that stuff when we both "have" to do it, and we're not codependent enough that she has to isolate herself with me or that I have to do everything she does.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Also, are instinctual variants inherent? Don't think I've seen any literature that states this, which doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't anything out there.

From Katherine Fauvre's site:

In theory, we are governed by all three instinctual drives, for they represent our most fundamental way of being, but one is generally more dominant and influential in our lives and defines the way in which we act out the passion of our Enneagram point.. If all three instinctual drives were in balance, we could function "perfectly" or "appropriately" to the needs of each situation. Nevertheless, such balance is rare, and usually one of these drives is "damaged" and commands an undue amount of our attention; and it is a person's most "damaged" instinctual drive that is overused and becomes dominant. The resulting imbalance distorts our perception of our essential needs, and we may find ourselves living large portions of our lives "in service" to this damaged drive.


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Although this doesn't negate the extent to which a dominant drive might be "damaged" because of inherent traits. (Except that there doesn't seem to be much correlation between instinct drives and mbti type or enneagram type).

[Previous thread discussing this. There's an excerpt from Helen Palmer's book quoted here, saying kinda the same thing.]