Random Politics Thread

[Virtual ghost]

Again, what about the possibility of a far right victory like we had here that, to me, seems poised to happen?

To also answer your post in the other thread.


Le Pen and her block aren't getting near real power. This is exactly why I don't have them in the story. What is because currently EU has 4 right wing blocks and not all of them are radical. In other words the differences are between ALL political options between both sides of the Atlantic. You should focus just on one when making the choice.

For example my progressives are against open helping to Ukraine, since war is bad. While center right is for helping Ukraine, because Russians are a bunch of commies that are trying to turn back the clock across Europe. Likewise my hard right is for socialized medicine since it is quite useful for their base that is mostly made out of workers and farmers. While centrist liberals are much more for various deregulations (they want to turn the place into US basically). Not to mention that some options don't truly exists in US, since EU spectrum is wider. Once we get into details it is questionable if you are even a leftist by my local standards. Especially since the biggest butchers in the these parts were Communists. Which are today's labor party (pseudo labor party to be exact).


Therefore once you get into actual details this all gets very complicated for people from two party system where deregulation is everything. Especially since every EU state has isn't own unique multi-party system (that are summed in the end). As I told you, the politics as you know it ends at US borders. However all mess in Europe basically comes down to the fact that people don't want to be another US. Endless deregulation and endless immigration from the global south.


In short: somewhere in western Europe are the places you should look at. Or simply go into some other English speaking county.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

To also answer your post in the other thread.


Le Pen and her block aren't getting near real power.

Why not? And I'm also referring to her counterparts in other European countries.

If immigration is unpopular, as it is here, why wouldn't they benefit?

 

[Virtual ghost]

Why not? And I'm also referring to her counterparts in other European countries.

If immigration is unpopular, as it is here, why wouldn't they benefit?

As I told you there are multiple right wing blocks in EU. Therefore not all energy is going into Le Pen's block. Also on the left there are also changes in this direction. Since some left wing parties realized that it better that they sort this out before people elect someone radical across all issues to fix this "problem". Plus there is the effect of coalition governments, if other parties don't want to work with you that is it. Unless you have over 50% by yourself, what is pretty rare in genuine multiparty system.


However the biggest thing about moving to Europe isn't really politics, it is that you will probably have various cultural shock in daily life. This is why it is better to focus on Western Europe, where the shocks will be smaller (and place is more liberal). While the parts to the east of Germany aren't really for people like you, but you probably already know that.

 

[Red Herring]

Again, what about the possibility of a far right victory like we had here that, to me, seems poised to happen?

The situation varies from country to country within Europe and neither of us has a crystal ball.

However:
- Since you mentioned Germany and the AfD. Yes, there will be elections in the near future and it is pretty clear that the new government will be to the right of the current one. However, the AfD - which is the only party here comparable to MAGA and which got 10.3% at the last general election - is currently polling at between 17 and 19%. All other political parties including the center right CDU (which will likely lead the next government) have sworn not to cooperate with them and at least on a national level they have so far kept that promise. There is no danger of them governing in the forseeable future. A CDU led government might loosen climate protection to make things easier on the short term for the economy and slightly tighten rules for refugees from the Middle East and Africa but should be nowhere near MAGA.
- One Western European country that is already ruled by the extreme right is Italy. There have been some shifts in cultural policies, but for the most part where they most clearly depart from other "normal" parties is mainly in their extremely harsh approach towards refugees (once again referring to people arriving on boats or on foot from Africa or the Middle East).
- The situation in France should be similar should the far-right end up winning in France.
- There have been shifts to the right in Scandinavia as well. Once again mainly because of opposition towards migrants from third world countries. I am not aware of other big policy changes.

I am not saying that to create the impression that these parties are harmless or okay, just that they tend to be highly focussed on one key issue: unregulated migration from third world countries. That is a serious and compley issue but even though it can tint the entire political atmosphere, it is unlikely to affect you personally (as small of a consolation as that might be).

As a rule of thumb (Western) Europeans tend to be to the left of Americans. And as @Virtual ghost said, definition of what "left" and "right" actually means are also quite different. For example, religion plays very little role in the politics of most European countries (Poland and its super-Catholic opposition to abortion being an exception). Reproductive rights tend not to be an issue. LGBTQ can be, depending on the country, but only in a few. I think both the freedom and the quality of the press tends to be a little better than in the US. Poland and Hungary as well as some other Eastern European countries have been trying to supress freedom of the press but I am not aware of that being an issue in Western Europe.
Also, polarization might be growing here as well but is not even close to US levels.

As I said, there is no danger of the AfD governing Germany in the foreseeable future but even if they somehow did at some point: Some of their base might have fantasies of locking up all them damn lefties (especially the much hated Greens) but I don't see any of their leaders making threats or announcements the way Trump does.


So, to summarize: There is a shift to the right, but our right tends to a) not be as strong as Trump and the MAGA movement and b) be secular and c) focus on unregulated migration from developing countries more than anything else. They might want a more isolationist foreign policy, spend less or nothing on climate protection and reduce public funding for critical media (and in Eastern Europe surpress LGBT and trans people and make abortion more difficult). In Western Europe the far-right is mainly about 1. reducing migration and deporting people if possible, 2. isolationist foreign policy, 3. some populist culture war window dressing ... in that order.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

As I told you there are multiple right wing blocks in EU. Therefore not all energy is going into Le Pen's block. Also on the left there are also changes in this direction. Since some left wing parties realized that it better that they sort this out before people elect someone radical across all issues to fix this "problem". Plus there is the effect of coalition governments, if other parties don't want to work with you that is it. Unless you have over 50% by yourself, what is pretty rare in genuine multiparty system.


However the biggest thing about moving to Europe isn't really politics, it is that you will probably have various cultural shock in daily life. This is why it is better to focus on Western Europe, where the shocks will be smaller (and place is more liberal). While the parts to the east of Germany aren't really for people like you, but you probably already know that.

Well, I haven't decided anything. With me, an issue is that I don't trust people at large, especially not in large groups, and I'm not fully convinced that simply finding a different large group to live among is the answer. An important benefit of staying here is that I have people I trust; they don't always have the right opinions or make the right decisions, but they have my best interests at heart. I have never been good at making friends so the thought of just moving somewhere else and living there by myself seems like a tall order. I also like the governor and he's earned my trust, which isn't easy.

 

[Red Herring]

Oh, and in some countries like Germany there also is an anti-immigrant far-left (like the BSW) which takes voters away from the anti-immigrant ar-right.

 

[Red Herring]

Well, I haven't decided anything. With me, an issue is that I don't trust people at large, especially not in large groups, and I'm not fully convinced that simply finding a different large group to live among is the answer. An important benefit of staying here is that I have people I trust; they don't always have the right opinions or make the right decisions, but they have my best interests at heart. I have never been good at making friends so the thought of just moving somewhere else and living there by myself seems like a tall order. I also like the governor and he's earned my trust, which isn't easy.

Well, nobody is telling you to pack your suitcases. Just informing that there are other places out there that are worth looking into if your worst fears regarding the upcoming Trump administration should become true.

 

[Virtual ghost]

As Herring said:

Well, I haven't decided anything. With me, an issue is that I don't trust people at large, especially not in large groups, and I'm not fully convinced that simply finding a different large group to live among is the answer. An important benefit of staying here is that I have people I trust. I have never been good at making friends so the thought of just moving somewhere else and living there by myself seems like a tall order. I also like the governor and he's earned my trust, which isn't easy.

This is exactly why I am not moving anywhere and I could move just about everywhere across the continent. There are potentially better places but home is home. If anything that simply means that you know with what you are dealing with.

 

[Red Herring]

One more addition: In many European country the center-right and the far-right tend to be two seperate parties that often don't interact much with each other.

 

[Virtual ghost]

One more addition: In many European country the center-right and the far-right tend to be two seperate parties that often don't interact much with each other.

That is very simplistic and it kinda works when presented to Americans. But in practice we have 3 types of right.


1. Center right that in US would be seen as democrats (perhaps even progressives in some issues).
2. "European conservatives and reformists" the group that are medium right (which is kinda equivalent to republican establishment).
3. Far right that has evident autocratic and pro Russia feeling to it (even if those have just split into harder and softer sub-version).


In other words center right and medium right often go well with each other these days. While hard right in generally ignored even by these two. However since education is so much better on average in Europe all of our right wing politicians are just so much more civilized. What is the factor that actually makes the difference.

 

[The Cat]

This response is logical, but my emotional reaction takes over in this instance.

I'm not quite sure what the best way to say this, but this is my attempt:

I'm disturbed by the eagerness of Americans to forget about what happened in the first decade of the millennium, especially because they barely acknowledge it to begin with. I suspect part of the indifference is due to the fact that it mostly affected foreigners, and not Americans. (It also created a refugee crisis in Europe that fueled the rise of far-right politics). The attempt to rehabilitate members of the Bush administration by liberals is yet another example of this. These are supposed to be the good guys, and they are basically telling me none of that mattered.

Everyone likes to think that in a totalitarian government that they would be the ones who would act heroically. They wouldn't just go through the motions. And they certainly would never enthusiastically support it. Knowing how little Americans care about Iraq after it was freed due to American beneficence and generosity, I severely doubt that most Americans would act heroically, and this factors into my thinking now as well.

It is extremely difficult for me to emotionally separate the crimes the Bush administration did from the ones the Trump administration did and will do. The appetite for one shows an appetite for the other.

It's not an eagerness to forget. Its a constant deluge of constantly changing new information beings streamed into all five senses all the time. All the time. They aren't eagerly forgetting. They're being driven mad by inches. Frogs in water that keeps warming, while a constant stream of light sound and fury being employed all at once. They're hypnotized, dazed, in a trance as it were. Imagine a bunch of people getting early onset dementia symptoms and nobody notices it because who the hell would in all this sound and fury signifying everything yet translating to seemingly nothing.

But most of them dont want to forget, though we all choose to forget something to at least try to stay sane, but its debatable if we have much choice about what gets stored and what gets forgotten, and lets never forget that reptition repition repitition sticks in the mind whether we want it to or not even when the context is long forgotten if it even made it passed all the other stuff to long term memory in the first place.

 

[Coriolis]

I am not trying to entice anyone to throw in the towel prematurely or abandom their home on a whim....but just wanted to make it known that many European countries are actively looking for skilled migrants, including programmers and other people in IT. Many of those countries also have progressive laws on LGBTQ and trans issues (Germany for example legally recognizes three genders in all government paperwork and recently passed new legislation to make name and legal gender changes easier). Wages tend to be a bit lower in Europe than in the US but so ist cost of living. Add to that higher food quality standards, lower crime rate, affordable healthcare and sometimes free education plus better working conditions and labor laws. This place is far from perfect and has its issues but as far as places of refuge go when things come to worst one could do worse than this.

But Canada is also cool, I guess

I could, in fact, claim Canadian citizenship and would probably do so if things became dire enough. I am concerned, though, about friends who do not have that option, including those who are not US citizens and may even have a hard time gaining legal long term status in Canada. I must agree, though, from my many visits to Europe that it has much appeal. I have enjoyed my stays in Germany especially, probably in part because I can (or at least could) speak the language passably.

This response is logical, but my emotional reaction takes over in this instance.

I'm not quite sure what the best way to say this, but this is my attempt:

I'm disturbed by the eagerness of Americans to forget about what happened in the first decade of the millennium, especially because they barely acknowledge it to begin with. I suspect part of the indifference is due to the fact that it mostly affected foreigners, and not Americans. (It also created a refugee crisis in Europe that fueled the rise of far-right politics). The attempt to rehabilitate members of the Bush administration by liberals is yet another example of this. These are supposed to be the good guys, and they are basically telling me none of that mattered.

Everyone likes to think that in a totalitarian government that they would be the ones who would act heroically. They wouldn't just go through the motions. And they certainly would never enthusiastically support it. Knowing how little Americans care about Iraq after it was freed due to American beneficence and generosity, I severely doubt that most Americans would act heroically, and this factors into my thinking now as well.

It is extremely difficult for me to emotionally separate the crimes the Bush administration did from the ones the Trump administration did and will do. The appetite for one shows an appetite for the other.

The roots of Trumpism go all the way back to Reagan, at least. He and Tip O'Neill, though political opposites, were at least able to work together to keep things going. Newt Gingerich may have been the beginning of the end of political civility. It is after that time that journalism significantly declined, with bombastic talk show echo chambers on the rise, even before the internet. Upheaval in education, partly driven by well-intentioned drives toward racial integration, didn't help.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I could, in fact, claim Canadian citizenship and would probably do so if things became dire enough. I am concerned, though, about friends who do not have that option, including those who are not US citizens and may even have a hard time gaining legal long term status in Canada. I must agree, though, from my many visits to Europe that it has much appeal. I have enjoyed my stays in Germany especially, probably in part because I can (or at least could) speak the language passably.

The roots of Trumpism go all the way back to Reagan, at least. He and Tip O'Neill, though political opposites, were at least able to work together to keep things going. Newt Gingerich may have been the beginning of the end of political civility. It is after that time that journalism significantly declined, with bombastic talk show echo chambers on the rise, even before the internet. Upheaval in education, partly driven by well-intentioned drives toward racial integration, didn't help.

With Newt Gingrich, I was too young to understand what it was about. I had an aunt dunk on Newt Gingrich, but I didn't understand the broader context at the time. I have since become semi-familiar with the "contract with America."

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Party affiliation is really the least of my concerns.

 

[The Cat]

Give it time, it'll rise.

 

[Virtual ghost]

The roots of Trumpism go all the way back to Reagan, at least. He and Tip O'Neill, though political opposites, were at least able to work together to keep things going. Newt Gingerich may have been the beginning of the end of political civility. It is after that time that journalism significantly declined, with bombastic talk show echo chambers on the rise, even before the internet. Upheaval in education, partly driven by well-intentioned drives toward racial integration, didn't help.

The roots go way more back. All the way back to colonialism and being the isolated colony at the end of the world. In other words the culture was always that the structure was generally "minimalistic". What means that you never build social structure to higher degree and that also involves education. In a sense this social minimalism is why your healthcare looks as it looks and guns are everywhere. This is the root of Trumpism, since most of the country never really moved forward from wild west as a social model.

 

[The Cat]

If you know where to look you can find it going back to the 30's.

I didnt think of it in terms of the old federalist anti federalist colonial angle. But yeah, I can see it.

 

[The Cat]

Follow the Money.
​

 

[Red Herring]

If you know where to look you can find it going back to the 30's.

I didnt think of it in terms of the old federalist anti federalist colonial angle. But yeah, I can see it.

Damn, yeah, I have Philip Roth's The Plot Against America on my to read pile. Is that what you are referring to?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

It's not an eagerness to forget. Its a constant deluge of constantly changing new information beings streamed into all five senses all the time. All the time. They aren't eagerly forgetting. They're being driven mad by inches. Frogs in water that keeps warming, while a constant stream of light sound and fury being employed all at once. They're hypnotized, dazed, in a trance as it were. Imagine a bunch of people getting early onset dementia symptoms and nobody notices it because who the hell would in all this sound and fury signifying everything yet translating to seemingly nothing.

But most of them dont want to forget, though we all choose to forget something to at least try to stay sane, but its debatable if we have much choice about what gets stored and what gets forgotten, and lets never forget that reptition repition repitition sticks in the mind whether we want it to or not even when the context is long forgotten if it even made it passed all the other stuff to long term memory in the first place.

Why didn't I forget? I'm constantly online.