Random Politics Thread

[The Cat]

It just occurred to me that the Temperance movement of the gilded age (and the is almost identical to the attacks on school boards/book bans/Moms for Liberty), fueled by "Christian" women that have had an "awakening" is just a reboot of the Second Great Awakening

Second Great Awakening - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The current groups always want you to believe all their religious bullshit is just human nature and really hope no one ever reads any history as all this shit and those who spout it are just reboots from the last century, that actually had progressive aims like abolishing slavery or women voting. Of course we know that the 18th Amendment was a huge mistake but that won't stop the GOP (and Democrats who have no spine to stop them) from trying something very similar again and attempting to repeal the other amendments that they hate and have publicly stated should be repealed (19th Amendment is a favorite).

I think of that every day. Especially when watching Boardwalk Empire.​

 

[Virtual ghost]

Not something you see just about every day.

 

[The Cat]

Not something you see just about every day.

*Gavel Gavel* order up in the court. One extra large ass whooping with a side of...(don't say justice, don't say justice) contempt.

 

[SensEye]

I love the way dude starts by spinning his BS about how he is in a better place in his life and is no longer committing crimes and deserves a second chance. The judge doesn't buy it - it's been clipped in this version of the video but I saw another version with more dialog where the judge replies: "I appreciate that, but I just can't live with your history so I think you need a taste of something else." Then he starts cursing her and then launches his attack.

Imagine this guy walking around on the street. He'd be one of those guys attacking fast food employees if they screw up his order.

 

[Totenkindly]

*Gavel Gavel* order up in the court. One extra large ass whooping with a side of...(don't say justice, don't say justice) contempt.

Jesus.

It looks like his poor lawyer goes up there as they are beating him into submission, I can only imagine what's going through his head on what his options are now.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I disagree that it's a cult. It's not. It's incredibly gullible people voting as they are told to do - a vast majority of them rarely voted previously and were abandoned along with all other working class people by all political parties - there is no one this country hates more than poors so totally excused by all political parties. Rich right wingers aren't MAGA either - they're rich people with political access.

Oh, that actually lines up better with my real-life experience. They're people who apparently voted the other way on previous occasions.

I do think its very similar to the first Gilded Age.

Gilded Age - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here's hoping for a second Progressive Era to follow this gilded age.

I'm wondering why you emphasized the cultural issues, since it also mentions economic issues. Do you think that perhaps more emphasis should be placed on one or the other by a subset of people?

Regardless, the overall pattern I think does make sense. There is rapid growth; consider how much Jeff Bezos made during the pandemic, and you can include the rapid technological development as well. But in spite of this, it's clear things aren't right. It's not as marked as it was during the "Great Recession", but it is nevertheless still there.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

@Julius_Van_Der_Beak This is how I view the maga mindset also as Ceecee has described.

Its a reincarnation of the Know Nothing Party in many ways. When I speak of the mindset that some on the left need to get past its this same mentality, but spread from the opposite side. I think South Park did a good job describing what this looked like back in the early to mid 2010s and late 00's:

But satire aside, you'll recall those video from the discord about lefties running each other over the coals because the seeming attitude of: My left is the pure left anything else is an imposter worthy of pulling resources from the fight against the authoritarian right, to turn against someone who should be an ally. Another aspect that hits closer to home for me personally is there is a chunk on the left that hates men. A chunk that hates any form of religious faith, and yes even some who hate white people(and often these people are white themselves). You have seen it online. Im quite sure a lot of these folks are coming from a reactionary place of trauma and fear with these things, and while I do not wish to invalidate that, it pains me to observe that that empathy doesn't tend to work both ways. Any lefty out on the ground doing the actual work is going to understand the NEED for coalition building and that starts with your family, friends, neighbors and co workers. They don't have time for endless purity tests and clout chasing. The sportification of United States Politics has unfolded precisely as every other sports fandom. It becomes a religion in and of itself. And while there is nothing wrong with that per say. I believe everyone believes in something at some point in their lives "religiously".

It's about purity, correct> Is that the common denominator between the MAGA right and its mirror image? There's a difference, which is that the right doesn't insist upon purity within itself nearly as much as the left does. (It's not unheard of though; usually they talk about it as being against "RINOs") I don't know what to do about the people who hate "x"; I think some of them are probably relatively young which adds an insouciance to the mix (but also a passion)).

I think it's important to listen to people, although I'm not sure that this is always enough, and even if it's enough, it can be hard. When this is the case, it's not clear to me what I should do; we should bring in a sympathetic ENFJ or ambiverted INFJ for this. I can't singlehandedly reverse power dynamics in a social environment, because I'm not the kind of person people are apt to listen to, even within my own group, if I even have my own group. I remember when the forum had stuff like the "I hate X" going on. I'm not proud of the way I handled it; I should have let go of my ego and not been butthurt by it, because I think we actually weren't that different. It would have been better to find a way to cooperate, but I couldn't have let go of my ego then because I felt insecure, and I couldn't have let go of my mistrust, because, well I didn't trust anybody. I felt I needed to protect myself (because I felt threatened!), but in retrospect I don't think they or most others would have gone after me if they understood me better; they weren't who I needed to worry about. I did not put enough effort in those days to helping others understand me. Although, it can be hard for others to understand, if their political ideology is the exclusive lens through which they relate to other people (This is common for INTPs of all gender at a certain stage of maturation, imo).

But terminology and comparisons aside: Youre family, your friends, your neighbors, The PEOPLE in your life are all across the spectrum. In the Bible(which many who claim to follow its tennants have NEVER cracked the spine of the book.) Says you'll know a tree(a person) by its fruit(The things they produce in their lives). I've seen conservatives with good hearts and loving dispositions to people regardless who they are what they look like, who they fuck, and where they're from. And Ive seen lefties tear innocent people to shreds all the while claiming it was for peace and love. Does the left want to be the sex positive party? Then why are they shredding Lauren Boebert? Because she's a hypocrite? Come on. You see the double standard... Are we the party of nuance? Then how come some amongst us likes to throw the baby out with the bathwater so often?

I mean, sure, there's hypocrisy, but I admit I find it a little funny, mostly because it was Beetlejuice. However, it's probably not a great way of scoring political points.

 

[The Cat]

It's about purity, correct> Is that the common denominator between the MAGA right and its mirror image? There's a difference, which is that the right doesn't insist upon purity within itself nearly as much as the left does. (It's not unheard of though; usually they talk about it as being against "RINOs") I don't know what to do about the people who hate "x"; I think some of them are probably relatively young which adds an insouciance to the mix (but also a passion).

I think it's important to listen to people, although I'm not sure that this is always enough, and even if it's enough, it can be hard. When this is the case, it's not clear to me what I should do; we should bring in a sympathetic ENFJ or ambiverted INFJ for this. I can't singlehandedly reverse power dynamics in a social environment, because I'm not the kind of person people are apt to listen to, even within my own group, if I even have my own group. I remember when the forum had stuff like the "I hate X" going. I'm not proud of the way I handled it; I should have let go of my ego and not been butthurt by it, because I think we actually weren't that different. It would have been better to find a way to cooperate, but I couldn't have let go of my ego then because I felt insecure, and I couldn't have let go of my mistrust, because, well I didn't trust anybody. I felt I needed to protect myself (because I felt threatened!), but in retrospect I don't think they or most others would have gone after me if they understood me better; they weren't who I needed to worry about. I did not put enough effort in those days to helping others understand me. Although, it can be hard for others to understand, if their political ideology is the exclusive lens through which they relate to other people (This is common for INTPs of all gender at a certain stage of maturation, imo).

I mean, sure, there's hypocrisy, but I admit I find it a little funny, mostly because it was Beetlejuice. However, it's probably not a great way of scoring political points.

The right absolutely does it as much as the left. Lauren Boebert is finding that out the hard way right now. And as far as what to do about it, I hate to be the one to have to tell you this, but I dont think this is something you can solve with typology

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

The right absolutely does it as much as the left. Lauren Boebert is finding that out the hard way right now. And as far as what to do about it, I hate to be the one to have to tell you this, but I dont think this is something you can solve with typology

I mean, within the left. I'm thinking about when this forum had some left wing people who were part of the "I hate X" thing, and how I regret the way I reacted to them. I apologize for being confusing by once again bringing up really old stuff.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

It's weird, but.... it seems to me like as the forum goes, so goes the country. It's illogical as hell, but that's a pattern I've noticed. That's probably why I bring up 11-year-old conflicts. If you could fix those 11-year-old conflicts by using some hindsight and a time machine, maybe you could fix them in the rest of the country as well.

 

[The Cat]

It's weird, but.... it seems to me like as the forum goes, so goes the country. It's illogical as hell, but that's a pattern I've noticed. That's probably why I bring up 11-year-old conflicts.

Reverse it.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Reverse it.

I immediately thought of this.

 

[ceecee]

Oh, that actually lines up better with my real-life experience. They're people who apparently voted the other way on previous occasions.




I'm wondering why you emphasized the cultural issues, since it also mentions economic issues. Do you think that perhaps more emphasis should be placed on one or the other by a subset of people?

Regardless, the overall pattern I think does make sense. There is rapid growth; consider how much Jeff Bezos made during the pandemic, and you can include the rapid technological development as well. But in spite of this, it's clear things aren't right. It's not as marked as it was during the "Great Recession", but it is nevertheless still there.

Only to illustrate that culture wars were happening then, just the same as they are now. Literally, nothing is new politically or culturally in this country, no matter how many times the media uses the word "unprecedented". It's just that we, personally, have no experience with or recollection of events like the gilded age, the Know-Nothings or the Second Great Awakening. Doesn't mean a perfunctory Google (or other) search wouldn't help most people tremendously. But I don't think any of it can be understood with typology or any other personality examination.

The best thing I can offer as one avenue to understanding left and right, race, class..is to read someone like Adolph Reed Jr. - Class Notes, Without Justice for All: The New Liberalism and Our Retreat from Racial Equality, No Politics but Class Politics... check out your library as some of these are textbooks and not availably in electronic format. If you want a podcast, Know Your Enemy is so so good and they have great guests. But the key here is "class". Remember that guy Oliver Anthony? The goal of the wealthy is to steal from the middle class, pocket the money, and convince them the thief was "poor people." "Rich Men North of Richmond" is that lie set to music. That's why anything you heard about the Great Recession was also a lie. And everything that happens or doesn't happen in the US is a policy choice. Everything. It always has been.

 

[The Cat]

This ^

 

[The Cat]

 

[Virtual ghost]

It may be; it might not be. I think people are encouraged to not work together, perhaps not deliberately, but with the same effect. It's possible to synthesize this variety of perspectives into one movement, but nobody has really cracked the code for doing so yet. I've had high hopes for this being done before, but it didn't work out. This is, I think, something that maybe couldn't be solved with the right vision, but perhaps it could be? The seed of the vision that existed once, perhaps that could have transformed into a guiding star going forward.

The tricky thing is that nobody has a clear vision of the future; that's not really done anymore. Even fluffy pop culture offers nothing but a series of dystopias. Nobody can imagine a good outcome. I suspect this is a global problem. If it weren't, all these other countries wouldn't be having the same problems. I think people are largely the same everywhere.

It is finally time for me to answer this (I ended up in some other conversations and walls of texts).

Here what you are doing is understandable but it is somewhat wrong conclusion. Which is that since your culture is falling apart that you think that everyone is in that kinda of a "mood". What is false. I have socialized medicine, free college, gun ban and even green new deal is implemented. Plus my public debt is falling. Everyone has it's own problems but for me it isn't the end of the world. This is exactly why I have completely thrown out modern US pop culture. I don't relate to that pile of nonsense anymore and thus there really is no need that I should waste my time and money on that. Watching the 237th "it is the end of the world" movie is just toxic however you turn it. I would really arrest various producers for this and charge them with treason, spread of miss information and mass panic. Especially since good chunk of those moves are unscientific. However the whole culture came to the point that it enjoys in depression and now you have what you have. However don't mix all of us into this. I had much darker days then the current era and therefore I refuse this modern online culture of drama and self-pity. This is simply the game that I don't want to play, especially since I don't really have the cards due to which I should play the game. Therefore I have devoted my time into actually fixing things in the physical reality. So this forum is where I put my more "darker" thoughts, but that is about it. I keep my distance since I don't want to get sucked into the mud.


I don't know how you really live but I highly recommend that you get yourself out of big city for a day or two (from time to time). This really helps with this kind of confusion. I don't really know what there is in the area since I am from the other side of the globe but I can guarantee you that getting away from the screen would really make a difference. Especially since at least half of the info on the internet is either incomplete, an insult, or direct misinformation. So lowering contact with that is what you should do if you are starting to feel you are slowly loosing it. Seriously, get away from the the shit as far as you can.


Friendly advice.

 

[The Cat]

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

It is finally time for me to answer this (I ended up in some other conversations and walls of texts).

Here what you are doing is understandable but it is somewhat wrong conclusion. Which is that since your culture is falling apart that you think that everyone is in that kinda of a "mood".

I was speculating with regards to that and I admittedly should have limited it to speculating about things I know more about, like the U.S. While I've traveled to almost every region of the country and have visited a decent chunk of the 50 states, I'm not sure I should be speculating about anything outside of myself and my immediate family, who I spend the most time with. My father and my sister are also negative/pessimistically-oriented types and my Mom is the only one among us who isn't like this. I can't really even determine much from cousins or aunt and uncles, or the small collection of friends I maintain communications with.

Apologies for the error.

What is false. I have socialized medicine, free college, gun ban and even green new deal is implemented. Plus my public debt is falling. Everyone has it's own problems but for me it isn't the end of the world. This is exactly why I have completely thrown out modern US pop culture. I don't relate to that pile of nonsense anymore and thus there really is no need that I should waste my time and money on that. Watching the 237th "it is the end of the world" movie is just toxic however you turn it. I would really arrest various producers for this and charge them with treason, spread of miss information and mass panic. Especially since good chunk of those moves are unscientific.

I'm particularly annoyed by this ISS movie. This movie seems to involve a nuclear war on Earth, and the ISS inhabitants are the few/only survivors who immediately are at each other's throats, or something like that. I remember reading as a kid about the ISS as a vehicle for peace and cooperation among all nations. I know that the world has changed a great deal since then, and I also know that this was no doubt part a very (American) 90s conception of the post Cold War era as one of global peace and prosperity, but this movie still irritates me. Did they really need to make a movie rubbing our faces in the death of the original ISS concept? I'm supposed to pay to go see this for my "enjoyment"?

Now, I realize that I don't really know the contemporary politics of the ISS, but there have to be some.

A lot of Americans my age are nostalgic for the 90s, I think in part because we remember there was a compelling vision, even if there are things to critique about that vision as adults (for instance "global peace and prosperity" really meant capitalism, which was further deregulated in the 90s in the US; Reagan and Bush weren't actually the only people to blame for that [and I apologies if you know this]).

However the whole culture came to the point that it enjoys in depression and now you have what you have. However don't mix all of us into this. I had much darker days then the current era and therefore I refuse this modern online culture of drama and self-pity.

This is simply the game that I don't want to play, especially since I don't really have the cards due to which I should play the game. Therefore I have devoted my time into actually fixing things in the physical reality. So this forum is where I put my more "darker" thoughts, but that is about it. I keep my distance since I don't want to get sucked into the mud.


I don't know how you really live but I highly recommend that you get yourself out of big city for a day or two (from time to time). This really helps with this kind of confusion. I don't really know what there is in the area since I am from the other side of the globe but I can guarantee you that getting away from the screen would really make a difference. Especially since at least half of the info on the internet is either incomplete, an insult, or direct misinformation. So lowering contact with that is what you should do if you are starting to feel you are slowly loosing it. Seriously, get away from the the shit as far as you can.

I haven't owned a car since 2012 (and to be honest environmental concerns are far from the only reason), and the paradox is that you typically need a car to get close to nature. I do have parks around me, and I'm actually in the middle of the book about unplugging. I've been trying out some of the ideas in the book, and I've noticed a difference. I walked to this one park I frequent, and sat down on a bench, as I often do. Only this time, I didn't pick up my phone, not once. The things I noticed were rather incredible. I found myself thinking about the perching patterns of birds on trees, and noticed that squirrels were eating the bright red berries of this one particular tree. I didn't think squirrels ate anything other than nuts and acorns. It's the same with the people I saw, or the structures I observed off in the distance. The real world can actually be a fascinating place, I'd forgotten that.

I don't know if this makes me more hopeful, though. I can't really imagine any alternative vision, and I don't see how it would manifest itself politically, even if I could imagine a vision. I have a hard time not seeing the Democratic party as an organization that is dedicated to placing roadblocks in the way of any meaningful change; the fascist tendencies of the Republican party doesn't diminish that fact. The problem isn't simply one party, it's really two parties (with outliers existing in one party), and I don't see a way out of this mess. We may be able to beat Trump in November, but there is still everything else. By the way, I would be happy to be proven wrong on the Democratic party, and thus be brought back to orthodoxy; it would make many conversations flow more smoothly (and honestly) for me.

I also will repeat something I said to @Red Herring, who I still need to get back to, that I think most politicians are corrupt and not in it to serve the people; it's mostly about the status, I suspect.

Finally, to be clear, I will be voting for Joe Biden in November, but I felt I should still say how I feel about the Democratic party as a whole (I have a higher opinion on Biden, actually). Perhaps the ideal thing to do here would to not voice any of my criticisms until after election day, but I think the nature of politics in this country does inspire a certain pessimism in me, and since the whole idea of lack of vision has come up, I thought I should articulate something that factors into that. I honestly think the mainstream Democratic party has more in common with European-style conservatives, than whatever political philosophy I might hold. My problem isn't that I'm secretly a conservative, as most people assume, but rather that I'm not actually a conservative. I want changes; I want new things; I don't want small half-assed measures that are supposed to appeal to people on the other side of the aisle who never show up. (Of course, I think these things also require research, studying, and planning.)

Edit: The more I think about it, the more our problems actually stem from not having a third party. The unfortunate thing is that we're never getting one. The only way out of this mess really requires an entirely different system of government and how do you get that? I don't want revolution, so how is that done? It's one thing to point out that something is done better elsewhere, and another thing to convince a nation of 331 million that it should be done that way. I can't just tell my sister about it and hope he tells someone else (and I'm not doing a YouTube channel or anything else in the spotlight). There are of course all kinds of ways things could be done and some of them could be better; that doesn't mean they will be done.

 

[The Cat]

 

[Virtual ghost]

I was speculating with regards to that and I admittedly should have limited it to speculating about things I know more about, like the U.S. While I've traveled to almost every region of the country and have visited a decent chunk of the 50 states, I'm not sure I should be speculating about anything outside of myself and my immediate family, who I spend the most time with. My father and my sister are also negative/pessimistically-oriented types and my Mom is the only one among us who isn't like this. I can't really even determine much from cousins or aunt and uncles, or the small collection of friends I maintain communications with.

Apologies for the error.


I'm particularly annoyed by this ISS movie. This movie seems to involve a nuclear war on Earth, and the ISS inhabitants are the few/only survivors who immediately are at each other's throats, or something like that. I remember reading as a kid about the ISS as a vehicle for peace and cooperation among all nations. I know that the world has changed a great deal since then, and I also know that this was no doubt part a very (American) 90s conception of the post Cold War era as one of global peace and prosperity, but this movie still irritates me. Did they really need to make a movie rubbing our faces in the death of the original ISS concept? I'm supposed to pay to go see this for my "enjoyment"?

Now, I realize that I don't really know the contemporary politics of the ISS, but there have to be some.

A lot of Americans my age are nostalgic for the 90s, I think in part because we remember there was a compelling vision, even if there are things to critique about that vision as adults (for instance "global peace and prosperity" really meant capitalism, which was further deregulated in the 90s in the US; Reagan and Bush weren't actually the only people to blame for that [and I apologies if you know this]).



I haven't owned a car since 2012 (and to be honest environmental concerns are far from the only reason), and the paradox is that you typically need a car to get close to nature. I do have parks around me, and I'm actually in the middle of the book about unplugging. I've been trying out some of the ideas in the book, and I've noticed a difference. I walked to this one park I frequent, and sat down on a bench, as I often do. Only this time, I didn't pick up my phone, not once. The things I noticed were rather incredible. I found myself thinking about the perching patterns of birds on trees, and noticed that squirrels were eating the bright red berries of this one particular tree. I didn't think squirrels ate anything other than nuts and acorns. It's the same with the people I saw, or the structures I observed off in the distance. The real world can actually be a fascinating place, I'd forgotten that.

I don't know if this makes me more hopeful, though. I can't really imagine any alternative vision, and I don't see how it would manifest itself politically, even if I could imagine a vision. I have a hard time not seeing the Democratic party as an organization that is dedicated to placing roadblocks in the way of any meaningful change; the fascist tendencies of the Republican party doesn't diminish that fact. The problem isn't simply one party, it's really two parties (with outliers existing in one party), and I don't see a way out of this mess. We may be able to beat Trump in November, but there is still everything else. By the way, I would be happy to be proven wrong on the Democratic party, and thus be brought back to orthodoxy; it would make many conversations flow more smoothly (and honestly) for me.

I also will repeat something I said to @Red Herring, who I still need to get back to, that I think most politicians are corrupt and not in it to serve the people; it's mostly about the status, I suspect.

Finally, to be clear, I will be voting for Joe Biden in November, but I felt I should still say how I feel about the Democratic party as a whole (I have a higher opinion on Biden, actually). Perhaps the ideal thing to do here would to not voice any of my criticisms until after election day, but I think the nature of politics in this country does inspire a certain pessimism in me, and since the whole idea of lack of vision has come up, I thought I should articulate something that factors into that. I honestly think the mainstream Democratic party has more in common with European-style conservatives, than whatever political philosophy I might hold. My problem isn't that I'm secretly a conservative, as most people assume, but rather that I'm not actually a conservative. I want changes; I want new things; I don't want small half-assed measures that are supposed to appeal to people on the other side of the aisle who never show up. (Of course, I think these things also require research, studying, and planning.)

Edit: The more I think about it, the more our problems actually stem from not having a third party. The unfortunate thing is that we're never getting one. The only way out of this mess really requires an entirely different system of government and how do you get that? I don't want revolution, so how is that done? It's one thing to point out that something is done better elsewhere, and another thing to convince a nation of 331 million that it should be done that way. I can't just tell my sister about it and hope he tells someone else (and I'm not doing a YouTube channel or anything else in the spotlight). There are of course all kinds of ways things could be done and some of them could be better; that doesn't mean they will be done.

Ok, you don't have a car but someone else might. So if you find right friends or family members you can find a way to get out of the city few times a year. What in almost always a good way to clean up your head. I for example wondered some mountain areas and beaches beneath them last week. It doesn't make the problems go away but it really kinda causes the reset in pessimism. I mean your entire country should be doing more of that. Since depression and weight are pretty common problems, therefore in a sense that is spilling into politics as well. Since everything comes with negative taste and it makes people just more negative until things start to openly brake down (what doesn't make anyone happy either).


But yes, you need some sort of third party that will shake up things. As I said if something needs to change in the country that is this duopoly in politics. Since this is just endless closed circle that presents minimal choice. The world simply isn't black and white enough that you can represent it with just two options. But you are somewhat right that Democrats are more like European conservatives. By my local standards Democracts are free market extremists that go even beyond my conservative maintream. Even Bernie is just people friendly centrist towards European standards. Therefore you indeed have incomplete political spectrum. What is kinda what led your here because certain options are off limits. Going through COVID without socialized medicine and bailout for small business is just pure sadism. So in a sense it is no wonder that most of you in the states are in the "it is the end of the world" mood.


So as I said the key to your problem within the current system are the primaries, which you are collectively skipping by pretty high margin. What is just stupid since that is the phase of the process where you actually have something that actually ressembles the multiparty system. Since this is where you could change the flavor of a party. Since I live in the active multi-party system to me it is kinda absurd that so many will complain about Trump and have sleepless nights over him. But they wouldn't do a thing to stop him (complaining on the internet is the furthest they will go). While what those 40% of independents and half of the country that doesn't vote should do is that they should register as Republicans. What would evidently make sure that the dude doesn't get the nomination. Since this would make such a flood of voters that there is no way he would get the nomination. Plus it would really help in cleaning up things down the ballot through the same mechanism. So once that is done you will have a shoot in fixing the country eventually. Since this would really help in lowering drama and negativily that are slowly but literally killing you.


I really don't want this to be an insult but you guys really don't have developed imagination. Instead you are being slaves to the labels and prophecies and wonder why nothing is being done. This is exactly why I suggeted that you personally get out of the box more often (which is your city). Because as presented you have pretty much all tools you need even in the current system. The only question on the table is can you collectively recognize them and actually use them. However that is unlikely to happen if you stay in your closed loop.