Random Politics Thread

[The Cat]

 

[Virtual ghost]

I can't imagine two more unpalatable contenders than corrupt Trump and senile Biden. So if not now, when? Unfortunately, I know the answer to my own question: never.

This is something I am openly wondering about since 2016. In other developed countries the mass of population would have voted third party with that kind of a choice. However in US it doesn't seem to work like that. I presume that this is because most don't even realize that there could be completely different game on the table.

However what I really find surprising is that they aren't using the primaries to much larger extent in making changes. Since this is the part where their system should show some wideness of the picture. What altogether is showing that people are pretty unaware of "the game" and their exact position in it.

 

[The Cat]

This is something I am openly wondering about since 2016. In other developed countries the mass of population would have voted third party with that kind of a choice. However in US it doesn't seem to work like that. I presume that this is because most don't even realize that there could be completely different game on the table.

However what I really find surprising is that they aren't using the primaries to much larger extent in making changes. Since this is the part where their system should show some wideness of the picture. What altogether is showing that people are pretty unaware of "the game" and their exact position in it.

propaganda is cradle to grave here. brainwashing is part of our culture. Life imitates art. We have been seduced by diversion and and inundated with fear. We have forgotten what is real.

 

[Virtual ghost]

We have forgotten what is real.

Amen.

 

[The Cat]

 

[Tomb1]

I doubt America will ever modify their election system to allow 3rd parties to have a viable chance. The two established parties have zero incentive to do so (and I am sure they would be the ones voting on any potential change).

So the only way there will ever be change to the electoral college system (and whatever else would need to be modified) would be for the public to vote in a majority 3rd party almost out of nowhere. If this 3rd party understood they had captured lightning in a bottle, they may try to modify the system so they might be viable down the road, knowing they likely could never win again under the current system.

I can't imagine two more unpalatable contenders than corrupt Trump and senile Biden. So if not now, when? Unfortunately, I know the answer to my own question: never.

That's a flaw of representative democracies: politicians....and the need to elect them

 

[ceecee]

Crypto Swindler Sam Bankman-Fried Has Scored a Big Win From Behind Bars

Years of efforts by crypto interests — most prominently, Sam Bankman-Fried — to deregulate the industry have finally paid off. Last month regulators at a small federal agency allowed a cryptocurrency firm to vertically integrate, endangering customer assets.

jacobin.com

Get ready for a bailout that's almost certainly coming for these fucking people.

Although the company is small, Bitnomial has deep-pocketed investors, including investment firm Franklin Templeton and crypto exchange Coinbase. Both companies have spent more than $3.7 million combined lobbying Congress, the CFTC, the White House, and other federal entities on crypto and additional issues in 2023 alone, disclosures show.

Kelleher, the president of Better Markets, said Bitnomial’s application would never have been approved by the SEC because securities law prevents this type of consolidation. He added that the consolidation is similar to the market structure that was allowed right before the stock market crash of 1929, preceding the Great Depression.

Kelleher added that it was this structure — one entity acting as an exchange, broker, and clearinghouse — that also caused the collapse of FTX, even though the arrangement was illegal to do so at the time.

 

[Virtual ghost]

2024 Presidential Election


The consensus map got updated today.

New update, Michigan moved from lean D to Toss-up.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

CMV: The principal failure of the left in this country, perhaps even the center-left, is the failure to build a coalition across many different types of people.

 

[Virtual ghost]

CMV: The principal failure of the left in this country, perhaps even the center-left, is the failure to build a coalition across many different types of people.

No, that is the outcome.
The failure is that they never menage to offer clear vision of the future and how exactly they would solve various details. What resulted with problems at the ballot box .... and you know the rest of the story.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

No, that is the outcome.
The failure is that they never menage to offer clear vision of the future and how exactly they would solve various details. What resulted with problems at the ballot box .... and you know the rest of the story.

It may be; it might not be. I think people are encouraged to not work together, perhaps not deliberately, but with the same effect. It's possible to synthesize this variety of perspectives into one movement, but nobody has really cracked the code for doing so yet. I've had high hopes for this being done before, but it didn't work out. This is, I think, something that maybe couldn't be solved with the right vision, but perhaps it could be? The seed of the vision that existed once, perhaps that could have transformed into a guiding star going forward.

The tricky thing is that nobody has a clear vision of the future; that's not really done anymore. Even fluffy pop culture offers nothing but a series of dystopias. Nobody can imagine a good outcome. I suspect this is a global problem. If it weren't, all these other countries wouldn't be having the same problems. I think people are largely the same everywhere.

 

[The Cat]

CMV: The principal failure of the left in this country, perhaps even the center-left, is the failure to build a coalition across many different types of people.

We'd rather fight each other over bullshit purity tests that no genuine human could ever meet, and the very people demanding the purity tests don't live up to their standards for other people. A good chunk of the American left is playing clout chasing games while letting the right dictate the field of battle, and the victory conditions. And all the while we deny our version of the "MAGA" mindset which does exist across the spectrum of voters both left and right. We consistently lose sight of the battle due to the fog of war. We continue to misrepresent how these sorts of wars of ideology are actually fought. As nice and tidy as it would be to be able to live in a fantasy world where its all lined up super simple. It aint. We're essentially just gangs of New York...

And the first side to realize that and act accordingly is the side that's gonna take the field.

Fascism is nipping at our heels and more and more palaver from the alleged "voices of resistance" on the left is just about lefties attacking lefties, because they've confused empathy with gossip, and have forgotten that to a lot of people, it's not a matter of popularity contests or whatever the fuck a feeling of ick is supposed to be. It's life and death.

Factions and religious denominations have never been relegated only to religion alone. Everybody believes in something enough to show their ass over it. To deny it is to play right into "enemy hands".

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

We'd rather fight each other over bullshit purity tests that no genuine human could ever meet, and the very people demanding the purity tests don't live up to their standards for other people. A good chunk of the American left is playing clout chasing games while letting the right dictate the field of battle, and the victory conditions. And all the while we deny our version of the "MAGA" mindset which does exist across the spectrum of voters both left and right. We consistently lose sight of the battle due to the fog of war. We continue to misrepresent how these sorts of wars of ideology are actually fought. As nice and tidy as it would be to be able to live in a fantasy world where its all lined up super simple. It aint. We're essentially just gangs of New York...

And the first side to realize that and act accordingly is the side that's gonna take the field.

What do you mean by "our version of the 'Maga' mindset"?

Fascism is nipping at our heels and more and more palaver from the alleged "voices of resistance" on the left is just about lefties attacking lefties, because they've confused empathy with gossip, and have forgotten that to a lot of people, it's not a matter of popularity contests or whatever the fuck a feeling of ick is supposed to be. It's life and death.

Yeah, and that looks like 2015/16 to me.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Crypto Swindler Sam Bankman-Fried Has Scored a Big Win From Behind Bars

Years of efforts by crypto interests — most prominently, Sam Bankman-Fried — to deregulate the industry have finally paid off. Last month regulators at a small federal agency allowed a cryptocurrency firm to vertically integrate, endangering customer assets.

jacobin.com

Get ready for a bailout that's almost certainly coming for these fucking people.

CFTC commissioner Kristin N. Johnson also warned about the dangers of vertically integrated financial companies, but ultimately voted for the Bitnomial application after she said Bitnomial promised to put consumer protections in place to prevent conflicts of interest.

Wow, she's a real sharp cookie. Perhaps I am being too harsh and she received some sort of kickback or something.

 

[The Cat]

What do you mean by "our version of the 'Maga' mindset"?

Yeah, and that looks like 2015/16 to me.

I'm going to begin answering that, by asking you this: How do you view the maga mindset on the right? Lay it out for me from your observations, I dont want to color your answer by answering more until.

regarding the 15/16 comparison. Go back to the original gilded age, around 1850's & 1860's to get the best sort of comparisons to what's going on now.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I'm going to begin answering that, by asking you this: How do you view the maga mindset on the right? Lay it out for me from your observations, I dont want to color your answer by answering more until.

regarding the 15/16 comparison. Go back to the original gilded age, around 1850's & 1860's to get the best sort of comparisons to what's going on now.

You mean Gangs of New York? Great movie, but slightly inaccurate (and sorry for being pedantic about this), probably because they wanted there to be a side in the movie for people to root for. The movie seemed to me to gloss over the New York Draft Riots somehow; they are part of the movie but are more backgrounded than I think they probably would be. I haven't seen the movie in quite some time so I can't go into more detail, so I could be way off.

But, we can always talk about the movie as a metaphor. It's essentially a conflict between those one side perceives American and those seen as not. I think focusing solely on the literal nativism angle isn't wrong, but incomplete.

MAGA is:
1. A cult. There are probably things Trump could do that would make them turn on him and move towards someone else. I'm tempted to call it a personality cult, but it's too high-maintenance for that, I think.
2. A movement with international appeal. The most fervent MAGA guy on this site wasn't even American; I'm not sure what this means, but I'm sure it's noteworthy.
3. Interested in nativism and "securing borders".
4. Interested in "law and order".
5. Heavily active on social media.
6. Interested in punishing political dissidents.
7. Filled with people who have a strong hand to steer the nation in the "right direction"; thus, constitutionality is unimportant.
8. Fond of bombastic rage-filled speeches, which suggests rage in the rank-and-file members. This makes me wonder where the rage come from; rage isn't necessarily bad. Rage can be justified or the appropriate response in some situations.
9. Fond of pageantry
10. Probably made up of people who were devout Apprentice watchers and it could be possible that for some members MAGA represents some kind of nostalgia for the aughts; consider Glenn Beck's "Rally to Restore Honor" as evidence that that there was a market for something like that.
11. Can technically be any race, gender, or religion (or even lack one); focusing on these things is distracting and can be easily countered by them. It's whiter, more Christian, and more male than the opposition but not uniformly so.
12. I hate writing this, because I hate the idea that experts are infallible. Nevertheless, it's there: there is a strong tendency to deny scientific and medical expertise. I think people also include foreign policy experts, but I actually trust these a lot less than scientific and medical experts. I'll bet the almost 20 years of progress in Afghanistan can be attributed to foreign policy experts or something adjacent to them. Whoever was responsible for that should be ignored.

 

[The Cat]

You mean Gangs of New York? Great movie, but slightly inaccurate (and sorry for being pedantic about this), probably because they wanted there to be a side in the movie for people to root for. The movie seemed to me to gloss over the New York Draft Riots somehow; they are part of the movie but are more backgrounded than I think they probably would be. I haven't seen the movie in quite some time so I can't go into more detail, so I could be way off.

But, we can always talk about the movie as a metaphor. It's essentially a conflict between those one side perceives American and those seen as not. I think focusing solely on the literal nativism angle isn't wrong, but incomplete.

MAGA is:
1. A cult. There are probably things Trump could do that would make them turn on him and move towards someone else. I'm tempted to call it a personality cult, but it's too high-maintenance for that, I think.
2. A movement with international appeal. The most fervent MAGA guy on this site wasn't even American; I'm not sure what this means, but I'm sure it's noteworthy.
3. Interested in nativism and "securing borders".
4. Interested in "law and order".
5. Heavily active on social media.
6. Interested in punishing political dissidents.
7. Filled with people who have a strong hand to steer the nation in the "right direction"; thus, constitutionality is unimportant.
8. Fond of bombastic rage-filled speeches, which suggests rage in the rank-and-file members. This makes me wonder where the rage come from; rage isn't necessarily bad. Rage can be justified or the appropriate response in some situations.
9. Fond of pageantry
10. Probably made up of people who were devout Apprentice watchers and it could be possible that for some members MAGA represents some kind of nostalgia for the aughts; consider Glenn Beck's "Rally to Restore Honor" as evidence that that there was a market for something like that.
11. Can technically be any race, gender, or religion (or even lack one); focusing on these things is distracting and can be easily countered by them. It's whiter, more Christian, and more male than the opposition but not uniformly so.
12. I hate writing this, because I hate the idea that experts are infallible. Nevertheless, it's there: there is a strong tendency to deny scientific and medical expertise. I think people also include foreign policy experts, but I actually trust these a lot less than scientific and medical experts. I'll bet the almost 20 years of progress in Afghanistan can be attributed to foreign policy experts or something adjacent to them. Whoever was responsible for that should be ignored.

I know they label themselves Christian, but I don't know that Christ would.

 

[ceecee]

You mean Gangs of New York? Great movie, but slightly inaccurate (and sorry for being pedantic about this), probably because they wanted there to be a side in the movie for people to root for. The movie seemed to me to gloss over the New York Draft Riots somehow; they are part of the movie but are more backgrounded than I think they probably would be. I haven't seen the movie in quite some time so I can't go into more detail, so I could be way off.

But, we can always talk about the movie as a metaphor. It's essentially a conflict between those one side perceives American and those seen as not. I think focusing solely on the literal nativism angle isn't wrong, but incomplete.

MAGA is:
1. A cult. There are probably things Trump could do that would make them turn on him and move towards someone else. I'm tempted to call it a personality cult, but it's too high-maintenance for that, I think.
2. A movement with international appeal. The most fervent MAGA guy on this site wasn't even American; I'm not sure what this means, but I'm sure it's noteworthy.
3. Interested in nativism and "securing borders".
4. Interested in "law and order".
5. Heavily active on social media.
6. Interested in punishing political dissidents.
7. Filled with people who have a strong hand to steer the nation in the "right direction"; thus, constitutionality is unimportant.
8. Fond of bombastic rage-filled speeches, which suggests rage in the rank-and-file members. This makes me wonder where the rage come from; rage isn't necessarily bad. Rage can be justified or the appropriate response in some situations.
9. Fond of pageantry
10. Probably made up of people who were devout Apprentice watchers and it could be possible that for some members MAGA represents some kind of nostalgia for the aughts; consider Glenn Beck's "Rally to Restore Honor" as evidence that that there was a market for something like that.
11. Can technically be any race, gender, or religion (or even lack one); focusing on these things is distracting and can be easily countered by them. It's whiter, more Christian, and more male than the opposition but not uniformly so.
12. I hate writing this, because I hate the idea that experts are infallible. Nevertheless, it's there: there is a strong tendency to deny scientific and medical expertise. I think people also include foreign policy experts, but I actually trust these a lot less than scientific and medical experts. I'll bet the almost 20 years of progress in Afghanistan can be attributed to foreign policy experts or something adjacent to them. Whoever was responsible for that should be ignored.

I disagree that it's a cult. It's not. It's incredibly gullible people voting as they are told to do - a vast majority of them rarely voted previously and were abandoned along with all other working class people by all political parties - there is no one this country hates more than poors so totally excused by all political parties. Rich right wingers aren't MAGA either - they're rich people with political access.

I do think its very similar to the first Gilded Age.

Gilded Age - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The political landscape was notable in that despite rampant corruption, election turnout was very high, and national elections saw two evenly matched parties. The dominant issues were cultural (especially regarding prohibition, education, and ethnic or racial groups) and economic (tariffs and money supply). With the rapid growth of cities, political machines increasingly took control of urban politics. In business, powerful nationwide trusts formed in some industries. Unions crusaded for the eight-hour working day, and the abolition of child labor; middle-class reformers demanded civil service reform, prohibition of liquor and beer, and women's suffrage.

Here's hoping for a second Progressive Era to follow this gilded age.

 

[ceecee]

It just occurred to me that the Temperance movement of the gilded age (and the is almost identical to the attacks on school boards/book bans/Moms for Liberty), fueled by "Christian" women that have had an "awakening" is just a reboot of the Second Great Awakening

Second Great Awakening - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Second Great Awakening was a Protestant religious revival during the early 19th century in the United States. It spread religion through revivals and emotional preaching and sparked a number of reform movements. Revivals were a key part of the movement and attracted hundreds of converts to new Protestant denominations. The Methodist Church used circuit riders to reach people in frontier locations.

Revivals and perfectionist hopes of improving individuals and society continued to increase from 1840 to 1865 across all major denominations, especially in urban areas. Evangelists often directly addressed issues such as slavery, greed, and poverty, laying the groundwork for later reform movements.[48] The influence of the Awakening continued in the form of more secular movements.[49] In the midst of shifts in theology and church polity, American Christians began progressive movements to reform society during this period. Known commonly as antebellum reform, this phenomenon included reforms against the consumption of alcohol, for women's rights and abolition of slavery, and a multitude of other issues faced by society.[50]

The religious enthusiasm of the Second Great Awakening was echoed by the new political enthusiasm of the Second Party System.[51] More active participation in politics by more segments of the population brought religious and moral issues into the political sphere. The spirit of evangelical humanitarian reforms was carried on in the antebellum Whig party.[52]

Historians stress the common understanding among participants of reform as being a part of God's plan. As a result, local churches saw their roles in society in purifying the world through the individuals to whom they could bring salvation, and through changes in the law and the creation of institutions. Interest in transforming the world was applied to mainstream political action, as temperance activists, antislavery advocates, and proponents of other variations of reform sought to implement their beliefs into national politics. While Protestant religion had previously played an important role on the American political scene, the Second Great Awakening strengthened the role it would play.

The current groups always want you to believe all their religious bullshit is just human nature and really hope no one ever reads any history as all this shit and those who spout it are just reboots from the last century, that actually had progressive aims like abolishing slavery or women voting. Of course we know that the 18th Amendment was a huge mistake but that won't stop the GOP (and Democrats who have no spine to stop them) from trying something very similar again and attempting to repeal the other amendments that they hate and have publicly stated should be repealed (19th Amendment is a favorite).

 

[The Cat]

I disagree that it's a cult. It's not. It's incredibly gullible people voting as they are told to do - a vast majority of them rarely voted previously and were abandoned along with all other working class people by all political parties - there is no one this country hates more than poors so totally excused by all political parties. Rich right wingers aren't MAGA either - they're rich people with political access.

I do think its very similar to the first Gilded Age.

Gilded Age - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here's hoping for a second Progressive Era to follow this gilded age.

@Julius_Van_Der_Beak This is how I view the maga mindset also as Ceecee has described.

Its a reincarnation of the Know Nothing Party in many ways. When I speak of the mindset that some on the left need to get past its this same mentality, but spread from the opposite side. I think South Park did a good job describing what this looked like back in the early to mid 2010s and late 00's:

But satire aside, you'll recall those video from the discord about lefties running each other over the coals because the seeming attitude of: My left is the pure left anything else is an imposter worthy of pulling resources from the fight against the authoritarian right, to turn against someone who should be an ally. Another aspect that hits closer to home for me personally is there is a chunk on the left that hates men. A chunk that hates any form of religious faith, and yes even some who hate white people(and often these people are white themselves). You have seen it online. Im quite sure a lot of these folks are coming from a reactionary place of trauma and fear with these things, and while I do not wish to invalidate that, it pains me to observe that that empathy doesn't tend to work both ways. Any lefty out on the ground doing the actual work is going to understand the NEED for coalition building and that starts with your family, friends, neighbors and co workers. They don't have time for endless purity tests and clout chasing. The sportification of United States Politics has unfolded precisely as every other sports fandom. It becomes a religion in and of itself. And while there is nothing wrong with that per say. I believe everyone believes in something at some point in their lives "religiously".

But terminology and comparisons aside: Youre family, your friends, your neighbors, The PEOPLE in your life are all across the spectrum. In the Bible(which many who claim to follow its tennants have NEVER cracked the spine of the book.) Says you'll know a tree(a person) by its fruit(The things they produce in their lives). I've seen conservatives with good hearts and loving dispositions to people regardless who they are what they look like, who they fuck, and where they're from. And Ive seen lefties tear innocent people to shreds all the while claiming it was for peace and love. Does the left want to be the sex positive party? Then why are they shredding Lauren Boebert? Because she's a hypocrite? Come on. You see the double standard... Are we the party of nuance? Then how come some amongst us likes to throw the baby out with the bathwater so often?

A gilded age masquerades as a golden age. And it suffuses culture from all angles. The right and left are filled with people who are afraid for their lives and their loved ones. We must take extra care that we don't let our fear drive us into the corrals of the tyranny of evil men. Regardless what they SAY they stand for. People don't just tell you who they are, they show you. But the sight works both ways. Ive got precious little patience for people who feed on the suffering and misery of others. Its something that lurks in all of us, and to deny that is to feed it.