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Virtual ghost

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You'll have to talk to Disco about that...he's been downright giddy about the prospect of another civil war. I guess he hopes his side will win this time. Ask him what's up and what exactly he wants to start a civil war over.

I was talking and thinking about much larger picture than the two of you. I just don't see the point of culture wars in the mix of current circumstances. Especially since both sides are doing some sorts of the culture war. The democrats are also doing culture war stuff so that they don't have to talk about real problems. From blue Texas to SJW stuff, sexual stuff ... etc. While Republicans fight for the saving of the country and it's culture. However I just don't see the point of all this in the current situation since the real pressure is coming from the outside in the form of authoritarian governments and radical groups.

Human mind usually prefers "problems" that are close by and that are easier to solve. But in the end this is just a distraction made for restoring the sense of control.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I was talking and thinking about much larger picture than the two of you. I just don't see the point of culture wars in the mix of current circumstances. Especially since both sides are doing some sorts of the culture war. The democrats are also doing culture war stuff so that they don't have to talk about real problems. From blue Texas to SJW stuff, sexual stuff ... etc. While Republicans fight for the saving of the country and it's culture. However I just don't see the point of all this in the current situation since the real pressure is coming from the outside in the form of authoritarian governments and radical groups.

Human mind usually prefers "problems" that are close by and that are easier to solve. But in the end this is just a distraction made for restoring the sense of control.
I would agree that this is a massive distraction and it's rather frustrating to me that these keep being focused on. I'm a software developer by trade so I get paid to solve problems, but it seems like politicians get successful mostly by avoiding solving them and focusing on some non-issue instead.
 

Virtual ghost

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I would agree that this is a massive distraction and it's rather frustrating to me that these keep being focused on. I'm a software developer by trade so I get paid to solve problems, but it seems like politicians get successful mostly by avoiding solving them and focusing on some non-issue instead.

I mean if you really want this competition between blue states and red states compete in who will upgrade more miles of power lines or build more new factories. I am not even fundamentally against competition but if you do that you should at least choose some worthy metric. It will be much more worthy than the nonsense of who watches more Disney.
 

Z Buck McFate

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I mean if you really want this competition between blue states and red states compete in who will upgrade more miles of power lines or build more new factories. I am not even fundamentally against competition but if you do that you should at least choose some worthy metric. It will be much more worthy than the nonsense of who watches more Disney.
Just out of curiosity, what sources are informing this opinion (and/or how many people are actually wrapped up in the culture war, to what extent, how they effect daily lives here, etc)? I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just wondering what it's based on.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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These kinds of videos always fascinate me. What on earth has to happen that a place falls this low.
I predict someone saying Baltimore would be a paradise if they elected Republicans because they would teach people the virtues of the free market Republicans don't actually believe in.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Just out of curiosity, what sources are informing this opinion (and/or how many people are actually wrapped up in the culture war, to what extent, how they effect daily lives here, etc)? I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just wondering what it's based on.
Well, some people certainly seem to obsess about this stuff a great deal, and I think it's easy enough to find examples of that. Consider all the Southern states on a massive book banning frenzy, as well.
 

DiscoBiscuit

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I was talking and thinking about much larger picture than the two of you. I just don't see the point of culture wars in the mix of current circumstances. Especially since both sides are doing some sorts of the culture war. The democrats are also doing culture war stuff so that they don't have to talk about real problems. From blue Texas to SJW stuff, sexual stuff ... etc. While Republicans fight for the saving of the country and it's culture. However I just don't see the point of all this in the current situation since the real pressure is coming from the outside in the form of authoritarian governments and radical groups.

Human mind usually prefers "problems" that are close by and that are easier to solve. But in the end this is just a distraction made for restoring the sense of control.
We spent how many years on the GWOT fighting and killing the bad guys (something I agree with in so far as we got Bin Laden and fundamentally crippled AQ) but then got it in our heads that a part of the world not culturally amenable to western democracy would jump at the chance for it if we just stayed there long enough. You can't defeat a non sate actor ideology that will always hate you and produce more martyrs for its cause while hiding among a global population of 1.9 billion muslims. Its just not going to happen. They'll keep blowing up our $500,000 MRAPS with $2000 VBIED's. And they can afford to spend that kind of money and kill their own people doing it forever. So fuck em. I don't care. Clipping Bin Laden would have been a good time to cut our losses.

The only plus side to the whole thing is that our military technology, and doctrinal ability to handle 4th generation warfare increased dramatically. We also have a hugely experienced number of personnel when it comes to killing people now and that's not a bad thing for the worlds strongest military to have. If we need em anytime soon we've got a lot of pipe hitting door kickers willing to handle it.

The oil thing didn't even matter as much once we discovered we were sitting globally substantial reserves of nat gas here at home and developed the tech to frack it. That is until green energy became more important than energy independence, and we resigned ourself to giving billions to countries that will do terrible things with it because utilizing our natural resources makes us feel icky. Don't even get me started on nuclear power. If you care about sustainable energy and don't support nuclear power you are a fundamentally unserious person.

So now after all the blood and treasure we spent over 20 years doing that with no real US interests abroad involved (besides killing Bin Laden and AQ), we are supposed to spin up the war machine figure out how to give 7 billion dollars a month (Ukraine Needs $7 Billion Per Month For Economic Recovery, Says Zelensky) to Ukraine in order to combat a power that defeated itself in 1991. I get it Putin sucks and what he's doing to Ukraine sucks, but there are only marginal US interests in Ukr and those mostly revolve around seeing Russia spend itself to death tilting at this particular windmill. We've already sent a THIRD of our Javelin stock to Ukr, a fucking third of it. Will the United States Run Out of Javelins Before Russia Runs Out of Tanks?

This is a Javelin and it costs $175,000 a pop.
1650584393784.png



Aside from the US interest of seeing RUS humiliated, there are a couple of other less important reasons to do anything. The first is that Russia shouldn't be invading a foreign country and the humanitarian atrocities being committed there are terrible. The the Ukrainians are no doubt willing and able to commit some of their own. Second which is more important for global stability is that Ukraine accounts for 11.5% of the global wheat market and them not producing any is likely to send shocks through the global system. This only matters to us in a humanitarian sense and in how much we benefit from a globally stable order. We can produce enough food here for our own people.

These marginal interests don't rise to the level of needing to commit boots on the ground or even the amount of money we are currently sending. Sorry, let Europe deal with it and then get laughed at when everything doesn't work out like it did for US in the GWOT. The problem with that is that Germany in its infinite wisdom decided to shutter its nuclear power plants and now relies hugely on Russian gas so that they have no interest in pissing RUS off. They probably wouldn't do anything anyway since they are so culturally averse to developing anything approximating a functional military these days. WWII guilt and all. And besides its way more fun complaining about other countries getting their hands dirty militarily while you sit under the protected umbrella of Ramstein air base, our largest foreign military instillation in terms of personnel.

But let Europe deal with the problem on their door step, I thought everyone was tired of Team America World Police. The best hope for that is probably Poland given their shared border with Ukr and general based nature.

The other global issue, one I'm much more inclined to give a shit about is Taiwan. China is a real growing power and will be our true antagonist for the 21st century. More importantly Taiwan is home to TSMC the largest most important semi conductor company on the planet. Meaning all those chips for you're state of the art chips for the CPU's and GPU's in your gaming rig come from TSMC. They also produce vitally important chips for the US car market as we've seen in the last years where their inability to get chips over here greatly slowed domestic vehicle production for a while. Most importantly they produce chips for the US military. Avionics packages for those shiny new F-35s, chips to go into cruise missiles. Everything has a chip in it and they produce the most technologically advanced chips on the planet. Strategically they are probably the most important single business on Earth. This is the most important reason why keeping China off of Taiwan is so important. Luckily TSMC is building a chip fab plant in Arizona that is slated to come only in '24 which will greatly alleviate our problems should China get froggy with Taiwan. That being said, there is a huge knowledge base in chip making in Taiwan that we still can't really afford to let fall in China's hands. For this reason and the fact that China is our only real rival, I give way more of shit about Taiwan and China's designs on it than I do Ukr.

If China was going to go after Taiwan the smart thing to do would be to have done so the instant Rus attacks Ukr. The US would have had to split its attention between the two situations and would have been hampered in dealing with either. Luckily China seems to be taking the cautious approach and waiting. Hopefully watching Rus get its shit pushed in in Ukr will give it second thoughts about going after Taiwan.

Now with ALLLLLLL that said I am far more concerned with domestic issues than either of these international situations. Its not our job to be the globes nurse maid anymore, we can't afford it and the international community will bitch at us about it. Grow up and deal with your own issues. We CLEARLY need to worry about getting our house in order here at home more.

Why do culture wars matter? Because they determine who we allow to control the conception America has of itself. And right now that conception is fucked. For decades every one watched the same news, read the same papers and consumed the same media. With the advent of the modern entertainment apparatus and the internet those days are done. One of our biggest issues right now is if people don't start marrying each other and having kids we could start to be looking down the barrel of demographic collapse. And that issue plagues most of the modern world right now. And culture is vitally important in shaping our conceptions of the family and how important/desirable it is to have one. Beyond family we need to be developing durable local communities that people can be apart of to give their lives meaning (churches, little league, bowling clubs whatever). While a globalized economy has done wonders for lifting the 3rd world out of poverty it has trashed our domestic jobs market leaving good paying jobs and the hope of owning a home out of reach for many. US border patrol has had a million encounters with illegal immigrants in the first 6 months of Fiscal Year 2022. Fiscal Year 2022 Border Encounters Will Hit 1 Million Right Before Peak Migration Season. We can't handle this many people. If you've looked at the trends in Hispanic political polling, the Democrats cant afford to keep doing it either. Democrats' problem with Hispanic voters isn't going away as GOP gains seem to be solidifying. Determining the outcome of these issues is vitally important to the health of and belief in the nation.

So yea, long story short we care more about domestic culture issues than international issues. And after 20 years of war I think we've earned the right to.
 

Z Buck McFate

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Well, some people certainly seem to obsess about this stuff a great deal, and I think it's easy enough to find examples of that. Consider all the Southern states on a massive book banning frenzy, as well.
Specifically I wanted to hear about how someone outside this country comes to see it.

I know how we see it. A lot of the animosity is a consequence of two different realities having their own bubble - do people outside the U.S. have access to both those narratives? We see current GOP officials flat out improvising pure fear-mongering bullshit on the spot, without even trying to find consistency in it; they clutch their pearls and scream about "cancel culture" in one breath and then rally to cancel someone/something with the next breath, and very little of it is based in reality, etc - is this what international news looks like? IOW: do people outside the country get the same news our Big Bad MSM shows? Because I know at least in the U.K. Fox has been banned as propaganda. Or is the international opinion formed by watching social media posts? (If yes, which social media, etc).

It looks like Q (and similar over-the-top fear-mongering) is reaching up into Canada, which is just nauseating - but I'm basing that on the social media posts of people I know there. The sources I trust the most (because they're good about keeping claims empirical and backing the claims) are Reuters and AP; they've reported a bit on Canada too. So I guess my opinion is informed by a combination of news and social media participation. Though I don't begin to have an estimate of how many people have fallen into the Q hole, it just really seems like the ones that have gone *deep*. (And the Reuters/AP stories confirm that the Q pieces make it seem like belief is stronger and more widespread than is actually the case - just like here).
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Specifically I wanted to hear about how someone outside this country comes to see it.

I know how we see it. A lot of the animosity is a consequence of two different realities having their own bubble - do people outside the U.S. have access to both those narratives? We see current GOP officials flat out improvising pure fear-mongering bullshit on the spot, without even trying to find consistency in it; they clutch their pearls and scream about "cancel culture" in one breath and then rally to cancel someone/something with the next breath, and very little of it is based in reality, etc - is this what international news looks like? IOW: do people outside the country get the same news our Big Bad MSM shows? Because I know at least in the U.K. Fox has been banned as propaganda. Or is the international opinion formed by watching social media posts? (If yes, which social media, etc).

It looks like Q (and similar over-the-top fear-mongering) is reaching up into Canada, which is just nauseating - but I'm basing that on the social media posts of people I know there. The sources I trust the most (because they're good about keeping claims empirical and backing the claims) are Reuters and AP; they've reported a bit on Canada too. So I guess my opinion is informed by a combination of news and social media participation. Though I don't begin to have an estimate of how many people have fallen into the Q hole, it just really seems like the ones that have gone *deep*. (And the Reuters/AP stories confirm that the Q pieces make it seem like belief is stronger and more widespread than is actually the case - just like here).
I think there are probably different levels of being into Q.

I know a guy on another Discord server who claimed he wasn't into QAnon yet pretty much repeats that worldview verbatim. I asked him about that and he said that "Q" and "Anon" are totally different and that it's misleading that they are lumped together; I suppose he only believed in Q.

This has essentially only affected one side of the spectrum and pretty much anyone on the left who didn't have their head screwed on right drifted into this stuff and joined the Trump camp.

I'm not sure how this particular culture makes America stronger but perhaps that's my midwestern elitism failing me. I'd also say that a culture that has contempt for the very concept of public health is also not terribly robust and will probably also prove unlikely or unwilling to face future challenges. Nor do I see a culture that shits the bed at the prospect of people who might not speak English as a first language living in their neighborhood as being effective at navigating 21st century existence, either.
 
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Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Just to be clear, despite some campaign promises and empty pandering, Lightfoot actually increased police budgets and spent 1.9 billion on police. Crime rates still rose.

It's almost like the answer to crime isn't to just keep throwing money at the police. Maybe some of these communities would benefit from more investments in things like education and employment? But I suppose we can't have that because that's the bad government interference of socialism unlike the good government interference which involves penalizing companies for not toeing the Party line. It's a prime example of how "conservative values" include liberty and freedom which I guess involves threatening private organizations who don't support the Party line. (To be clear I do think Disney should be penalized, but that's more for the Rise of Skywalker and not because they didn't hate LGBT people sufficiently.)

 
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DiscoBiscuit

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Absent fathers and broken families have nothing to do with it.

Growing up with no strong male role models to offer a guiding hand to young men who disproportionally commit crime also has nothing to do with it.

I know what to do, since we're so afraid to lay the blame on an individual or culture or in any way judge anyone ever (except conservatives may shit be upon them) lets throw money at schools and social programs which I'm sure have a proven track record of alleviating endemic crime and not just enriching themselves by adding administrative positions becoming in effect bleeding heart jobs programs. Its not like social programs generally have a vested interest in not actually solving the problems they were designed to lest all those administrators lose their jobs with nothing else to fight for.

And if there is material progress made like lets say on racism, we can always define the problem down until anything we say becomes racist then we can have jobs forever. Never mind the difference between a lynching and say assuming someone is from Vietnam when they're from Laos. That doesn't matter as long as those sweet sweet donations keep coming in. Don't worry if the supply of actual racists is quite small and getting smaller, we can just call half the country racist then we get to suck from the tit of power forever.

Also Lori Lightfoot lol.

The change in policy for Lori occurred after the spike in crime and nationally poor polling on crime. Seems like a bad case of.

1650618735515.png
 
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Virtual ghost

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....

So yea, long story short we care more about domestic culture issues than international issues. And after 20 years of war I think we've earned the right to.


Ok, you shared your picture of the world with me and now I will share mine with you. Regarding facts we seem to agree for the most part but there is a difference in interpretation.


In my book you are making a mistake when you are splitting the foreign and domestic problems since in the modern times those two are simply quite interconnected. For example I said the main threats are coming from the outside (mostly Asia). However that doesn't exclude the fact that the first step in addressing that is basically fixing your own house. If that doesn't happen you basically lose automatically. Also you say that Ukraine is large food exporter. What actually complicates things since most of those exports are going to the Middle east. What is probably one of the reasons why Russia invaded in the first place. Since with that they would get a direct say in Middle eastern food supply. What has huge consequences since the region is already slipping towards east even if it is absolutely vital for the whole "reserve currency of the world" thing. This is exactly why you went into Iraq in the first place. Therefore if you lose that you basically have no chance of repaying all those tens of Trillions in debt that are choking the country. In that case you have debts of a Superpower without actually being a super power.

Also the fact that Ukraine needs those 7 billion each month that doesn't mean that you are the only one that will take a part in that. Your part shouldn't be above 2 or 3 Billions and Ukraine is worth that much. Especially since you can pay your own companies to help the country. Which is exactly why I think that too firm splitting of foreign and domestic issues is a mistake. Also your traditional allies have combined annual GDP of about 30 Trillion $ and they generally have less debt and many of them outsourced much less of their industry. Therefore they could be important component in rebuilding the USA, which is objectively in ruins for the most part. To me saying that you prefer domestic issues is pretty much as saying that you only really care about winning the red states and that swing states aren't that interesting to you. And we both know that this isn't how the game works.



In my book you simply don't have the time for cultural wars, especially not the stupid ones like the one around Disney. While for me fixing the foundations of the country isn't really a cultural war but attempt of survival. Therefore as I said if you want competition between blue and red states at least make that about something that matters. Like the rate of rebuilding, factories opened, quality of life or something else that actually matters.


Just my 2 cents in the issue.
 

DiscoBiscuit

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^ Thanks for responding to the points I made. It's refreshing. Im not awake enough to fully respond to the thrust of your reply right now but I'll leave this before I get back to you later.

27278.jpeg


Thanks again.
 

Virtual ghost

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Specifically I wanted to hear about how someone outside this country comes to see it.

I know how we see it. A lot of the animosity is a consequence of two different realities having their own bubble - do people outside the U.S. have access to both those narratives? We see current GOP officials flat out improvising pure fear-mongering bullshit on the spot, without even trying to find consistency in it; they clutch their pearls and scream about "cancel culture" in one breath and then rally to cancel someone/something with the next breath, and very little of it is based in reality, etc - is this what international news looks like? IOW: do people outside the country get the same news our Big Bad MSM shows? Because I know at least in the U.K. Fox has been banned as propaganda. Or is the international opinion formed by watching social media posts? (If yes, which social media, etc).

It looks like Q (and similar over-the-top fear-mongering) is reaching up into Canada, which is just nauseating - but I'm basing that on the social media posts of people I know there. The sources I trust the most (because they're good about keeping claims empirical and backing the claims) are Reuters and AP; they've reported a bit on Canada too. So I guess my opinion is informed by a combination of news and social media participation. Though I don't begin to have an estimate of how many people have fallen into the Q hole, it just really seems like the ones that have gone *deep*. (And the Reuters/AP stories confirm that the Q pieces make it seem like belief is stronger and more widespread than is actually the case - just like here).

I am outsider but regarding the internet I have access to everything that typical American can access (if I want to watch/read that). As I said: if I want to find out when the Thai restaurant in southern Denver closes I can do that at any time. I can even use Google earth to see how the restaurant actually looks like from outside (or the streets around it). If they have their own page I can even see inside.


In other words when you open US media use see: the other side will end the country, they are cheating, they are nuts that watch Disney, they hate gays, they hate children, they are exploding debt, lawsuits are flying all over the place, then the Jan 6 stuff, ..... etc. When you open most of US political Youtube channels you will see: they are cheating, they are nuts that watch Disney, they hate gays, they hate children, they are exploding debt, lawsuits are flying all over the place, then the Jan 6 stuff, ..... etc. Even if you open entertainment such as talk shows or Oscar awards you will clearly see the elements of culture wars. Also when I open my own domestic media: US is very divided and it is getting unstable. At this point many in the country trust more various foreigners than the other party. The deep economic crisis is creating riots in US. Hurricane leveled a few town that probably aren't coming back. Gun violence in US is out of control .... etc.


So however you turn it the impression is that the place is falling apart and people are panicking. Therefore they are grabbing various issues that matter or may not matter just to have something to fight. Since the politics in general status quo by design and therefore if it is a bad one all you can do is rant about Disney or whatever.
 
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Virtual ghost

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^ Thanks for responding to the points I made. It's refreshing. Im not awake enough to fully respond to the thrust of your reply right now but I'll leave this before I get back to you later.

27278.jpeg


Thanks again.



Ok, but I would like to see the one that is in GDP percentage. Also if you count Europe/EU country by county that is as if I count US state by state. Doing this is unfair, either you sum both sides or neither (most of Europe isn't even mentioned here and they are sending stuff). Also US even blocked some big deliveries that countries like Poland wanted to do. Since that would escalate the situation. But since the situation is as it is now pretty much everyone is sending or will send bigger guns. Also March 27 was weeks ago. I mean you are doing the largest chunk since you are the largest chunk. But that doesn't mean that everyone else is worthless.

Plus the largest cost of all this is taking refugees. Where US evidently doesn't lead. I am not after a dick contest but I am simply saying that the issue is more complicated than the graph shows.




Btw. It seems that I found the per GDP version (I think this is also without refugees).


 

DiscoBiscuit

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Ok, but I would like to see the one that is in GDP percentage. Also if you count Europe/EU country by county that is as if I count US state by state. Doing this is unfair, either you sum both sides or neither (most of Europe isn't even mentioned here and they are sending stuff). Also US even blocked some big deliveries that countries like Poland wanted to do. Since that would escalate the situation. But since the situation is as it is now pretty much everyone is sending or will send bigger guns. Also March 27 was weeks ago. I mean you are doing the largest chunk since you are the largest chunk. But that doesn't mean that everyone else is worthless.

Plus the largest cost of all this is taking refugees. Where US evidently doesn't lead. I am not after a dick contest but I am simply saying that the issue is more complicated than the graph shows.




Btw. It seems that I found the per GDP version (I think this is also without refugees).


I was just showing that your estimation of how much we would end up or should be paying was short of the actual numbers.

Regarding refugees, how does it make sense to fly them across the atlantic when you don't have to? Why pay the money per refugee to do that? I'm sure we are taking some esp those with family in the US.

Also absolutely the rest of the countries aren't worthless. I wouldn't ever make that point.

The point made is that regardless of the % of GDP number we are doing more in net terms just like we do with foreign aid generally. And that matters no matter how you want to slice it.

I'll get to the rest of your points later as replying to them can be wrapped up into my reply to your larger response to me above.
 
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