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Stigmata

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Yeah, that is my reaction on the issue every time I see that argument. (we have been there before).
Plus what people like this forget is that he in 2020 had the second largest vote count ever from what I realize. So I wouldn't be so fast in calling him doomed to fail. It is enough that plenty of independents in some states stays home for whatever the reason and that is it.
Not suggesting at all that if he runs again in 2024 that it would be a guaranteed victory for the Democrats, but it would undoubtably give them the best path towards a victory -- If the Republicans run any candidate who is not Trump, yet can also manage to utilize dogwhistling towards the xenophobic/nationalist base, yet not scare/shame the suburbanites too badly, with the current crop of Democrat frontrunners (Pete Puttigeig, Kamala Harris), I don't see the Dems standing any chance.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Not suggesting at all that if he runs again in 2024 that it would be a guaranteed victory for the Democrats, but it would undoubtably give them the best path towards a victory -- If the Republicans run any candidate who is not Trump, yet can also manage to utilize dogwhistling towards the xenophobic/nationalist base, yet not scare/shame the suburbanites too badly, with the current crop of Democrat frontrunners (Pete Puttigeig, Kamala Harris), I don't see the Dems standing any chance.
Ah, but what if they pick someone else and Trump throws a temper tantrum and convinces his supporters to boycott the election because it's not him? I think that would be the best scenario... if they pick someone else and Trump picks up his ball and goes home, which is entirely likely.
 

Stigmata

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Ah, but what if they pick someone else and Trump throws a temper tantrum and convinces his supporters to boycott the election because it's not him? I think that would be the best scenario... if they pick someone else and Trump picks up his ball and goes home, which is entirely likely.
There's that, but that's like the Goosebumps create-your-own-scare alternate ending version of my original post on this topic, yet it is entirely possible.

Everything seems as if the Republican establishment is trying to utilize kid gloves to push him out without invoking his wrath (you see it now with all these right-wing pundits suggest he act as a kingmaker for the party but let someone else run), yet I can't imagine his ego will allow for that to happen as seamlessly as they'd like, especially if it appears that person is Ron Desantis.

Since he is still far and away the preferred frontrunner based on polling data, I think they'd have to concede to him in the event he did announce his candidacy, because there's no way he gracefully accepts any challenger without turning the ravenous base back on the party for even daring to question whether or not he is the face of the party. We will see, I suppose. I still believe a Trump 2024 bid is the best chance Dems have at maintaining the executive branch at present time, not so much because the democrat candidates are so great (spoiler alert: they aren't), but just because Trump is such a polarizing and toxic asset for the Republicans.
 

Virtual ghost

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Ah, but what if they pick someone else and Trump throws a temper tantrum and convinces his supporters to boycott the election because it's not him? I think that would be the best scenario... if they pick someone else and Trump picks up his ball and goes home, which is entirely likely.


Yeah but the problem with that is obvious, all polls indicate he will storm the primaries (plus he seems to be cleaning the party from his opponents). While for now I don't really see strong figure on the blue side. Even COVID will probably end by 2024 (or the world will end by that point). 2022 will be a red wave almost surely and that is evidently preparing the terrain through blocking. There was even this A+ Iowa poll and he should win there by larger margin than in 2020. I just don't see any real "barrier" in political sense.
 

Z Buck McFate

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^^ If we (Democrats) could focus on making sure the districts aren't gerrymandered and/or partisan electors (?) aren't positioned to "prevent fraud" (aka: make sure the GOP candidate gets the district vote/ensure that any alternative to winning the vote will be dismissed as fraudulent), then that's most of the battle. Winning the fight with a fair election - THAT part is mostly in the bag. The worst of them (like McConnell, Cruz) wouldn't endlessly spew unsubstantiated fear-mongering about Democrats "trying to change the rules to ensure they are the only ones who can win" if they could win a fair election, at this point. They know Fox (et al) won't press them for an explanation for any of their fear-mongering. (eta: Fox, et al, CREATE half of the fear-mongering on their own). Hell, regular journalists won't even press them (it wouldn't last long if they did - they'd cut the interview short and say something stupid about being 'harrassed' and the 'bad faith' of the interviewer - but it'd be nice if someone would try to publicly ask questions they can't answer). They can say whatever ridiculous fucking accusation they want and it'll be gobbled up whole. They could probably even say actual outer space aliens have infiltrated the Democrat party at this point and not lose credibility with their base.
 

Virtual ghost

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^^ If we (Democrats) could focus on making sure the districts aren't gerrymandered and/or partisan electors (?) aren't positioned to "prevent fraud" (aka: make sure the GOP candidate gets the district vote/ensure that any alternative to winning the vote will be dismissed as fraudulent), then that's most of the battle. Winning the fight with a fair election - THAT part is mostly in the bag. The worst of them (like McConnell, Cruz) wouldn't endlessly spew unsubstantiated fear-mongering about Democrats "trying to change the rules to ensure they are the only ones who can win" if they could win a fair election, at this point. They know Fox (et al) won't press them for an explanation for any of their fear-mongering. (eta: Fox, et al, CREATE half of the fear-mongering on their own). Hell, regular journalists won't even press them (it wouldn't last long if they did - they'd cut the interview short and say something stupid about being 'harrassed' and the 'bad faith' of the interviewer - but it'd be nice if someone would try to publicly ask questions they can't answer). They can say whatever ridiculous fucking accusation they want and it'll be gobbled up whole. They could probably even say actual outer space aliens have infiltrated the Democrat party at this point and not lose credibility with their base.


That perhaps says something about the 2022 part of the equation but the rest stands. The man has pretty open path and no one of important people seems to mind too much.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Fuck around…


ULJlofM.jpg
 

Z Buck McFate

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WaPo posted this op ed this morning, Journalists also have an obligation to fix democracy:

Journalism professor and media critic Jay Rosen observes that “the incremental coverage, the focus on the inside game, the notion of tactics and strategy, and the joining up of the political class with the information junkies” does little to inform voters about major pieces of legislation. We get nonstop coverage of the “sausage making” but little about the content of bills that cost trillions. We hear incessant chatter about the filibuster but little examination of Senate Democrats’ compromise voting-rights plan, while Republicans are rarely grilled as to the basis for their objections to common-sense measures (e.g. enhancing penalties for threats to election officials, requiring a paper audit trail, limiting wait times to 30 minutes).​
This style of political coverage reduces critical issues of the day to sporting events and celebrity gossip. “Is the president angry with senators?” The answer is irrelevant, and the question is designed to create a nonsensical sound bite (the White House denies he is angry) rather than analysis of the substance of disputes. In the current political environment, the media’s process obsession obscures the lunacy of an increasingly unhinged right and its lack of policy answers on much of anything.​
The media avoid pressing Republicans on matters of substance, so the expectation that they take legislating seriously dwindles. Instead, coverage of Republicans focuses almost exclusively on their latest cultural meme. The media wind up spreading concocted issues designed to anger, distract and, frankly, mislead the public about the condition of the country. We get far more coverage of Texas Republican Sen. Ted Cruz’s inane attack on Big Bird and Missouri Republican Sen. Josh Hawley’s riff on masculinity (as if either topic had to do with their jobs as U.S. senators) than we do on the benefits their constituents would derive from Biden’s agenda, which they oppose. Do these senators ever get queried about their own policy ideas for reducing inflation, reducing inequality or enhancing competition?​
In place of clear and accurate descriptions of GOP gambits (“voting suppression”) we get mealy-mouthed phrases (“voting changes” or “strict rules of voting”) that obscure what they are up to. Instead of emphatic debunkings we get praise for the cleverness of the GOP in forcing the Democrats to talk about a nonexistent problems (e.g. critical race theory in K-12). At times the media’s assistance in spreading GOP insults is downright cringeworthy, as when Peter Alexander quizzed the White House press secretary about a MAGA chant and asked if Biden had failed to lower the political temperature.​


I'd be incredibly surprised if even the smartest of the current GOP could come up with a cogent platform (in other words, if they say "to defeat communism," also providing a cogent, *correct* explanation - instead of just dropping a spooky soundbite to emotionally charge the base into loyal agreement). It seems to be primarily "PwN tHe LeFt."

On the other hand, more reputable sources of media need to focus on the signal/block out the noise more. And start getting input from the sane conservatives about how they are not answering questions for actual conservative points of view.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Yeah but the problem with that is obvious, all polls indicate he will storm the primaries (plus he seems to be cleaning the party from his opponents). While for now I don't really see strong figure on the blue side. Even COVID will probably end by 2024 (or the world will end by that point). 2022 will be a red wave almost surely and that is evidently preparing the terrain through blocking. There was even this A+ Iowa poll and he should win there by larger margin than in 2020. I just don't see any real "barrier" in political sense.
Oh, I didn't say it's likely, just the outcome I would consider encouraging.

The idea that Trump will finally destroy the Republican party this time if he runs gives me deja vu.

I'm reminded of Hillary boosting the Trump campaign in the primaries and then phoning things in during the general election because Trump would be "easy" to beat. James Carville is on record saying that he thought Hillary would easily beat Trump and just needed to hang back and let Trump destroy himself. But I suppose we don't have to think about that and can just attribute everything to happen to Russian bots on Facebook.

For some reason despite not having much to actually offer the American people Democratic politicians and party bigwigs seem to be pretty confident that not being Republicans is sufficient to gain them landslide victories every time. There's a sheer arrogance among political insiders that makes it hard for me to wrap my head around. I think it's a consequence of the sort of bubbles they live in and socialize in; they don't know how people outside the beltway think. That's understandable, but would it kill them to do some research on these matters instead of just participating in circle jerks?
 
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Virtual ghost

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Oh, I didn't say it's likely, just the outcome I would consider encouraging.

The idea that Trump will finally destroy the Republican party this time if he runs gives me deja vu.

I'm reminded of Hillary boosting the Trump campaign in the primaries and then phoning things in during the general election because Trump would be "easy" to beat. James Carville is on record saying that he thought Hillary would easily beat Trump and just needed to hang back and let Trump destroy himself. But I suppose we don't have to think about that and can just attribute everything to happen to Russian bots on Facebook.

For some reason despite not having much to actually offer the American people Democratic politicians and party bigwigs seem to be pretty confident that not being Republicans is sufficient to gain them landslide victories every time. There's a sheer arrogance among political insiders that makes it hard for me to wrap my head around. I think it's a consequence of the sort of bubbles they live in and socialize in; they don't know how people outside the beltway think. That's understandable, but would it kill them to do some research on these matters instead of just participating in circle jerks?


That is kinda the point in my last post. I really don't see some real concern in the practical action. It is the same sleepwalking all over again (and this time the primaries shouldn't be any problem at all).
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Oh, I didn't say it's likely, just the outcome I would consider encouraging.

The idea that Trump will finally destroy the Republican party this time if he runs gives me deja vu.

I'm reminded of Hillary boosting the Trump campaign in the primaries and then phoning things in during the general election because Trump would be "easy" to beat. James Carville is on record saying that he thought Hillary would easily beat Trump and just needed to hang back and let Trump destroy himself. But I suppose we don't have to think about that and can just attribute everything to happen to Russian bots on Facebook.

For some reason despite not having much to actually offer the American people Democratic politicians and party bigwigs seem to be pretty confident that not being Republicans is sufficient to gain them landslide victories every time. There's a sheer arrogance among political insiders that makes it hard for me to wrap my head around. I think it's a consequence of the sort of bubbles they live in and socialize in; they don't know how people outside the beltway think. That's understandable, but would it kill them to do some research on these matters instead of just participating in circle jerks?
He may destroy the republican party as we currently know it, but what arises from those ashes is what I'd be the most worried about.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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WaPo posted this op ed this morning, Journalists also have an obligation to fix democracy:

Journalism professor and media critic Jay Rosen observes that “the incremental coverage, the focus on the inside game, the notion of tactics and strategy, and the joining up of the political class with the information junkies” does little to inform voters about major pieces of legislation. We get nonstop coverage of the “sausage making” but little about the content of bills that cost trillions. We hear incessant chatter about the filibuster but little examination of Senate Democrats’ compromise voting-rights plan, while Republicans are rarely grilled as to the basis for their objections to common-sense measures (e.g. enhancing penalties for threats to election officials, requiring a paper audit trail, limiting wait times to 30 minutes).​
This style of political coverage reduces critical issues of the day to sporting events and celebrity gossip. “Is the president angry with senators?” The answer is irrelevant, and the question is designed to create a nonsensical sound bite (the White House denies he is angry) rather than analysis of the substance of disputes. In the current political environment, the media’s process obsession obscures the lunacy of an increasingly unhinged right and its lack of policy answers on much of anything.​
The media avoid pressing Republicans on matters of substance, so the expectation that they take legislating seriously dwindles. Instead, coverage of Republicans focuses almost exclusively on their latest cultural meme. The media wind up spreading concocted issues designed to anger, distract and, frankly, mislead the public about the condition of the country. We get far more coverage of Texas Republican Sen. Ted Cruz’s inane attack on Big Bird and Missouri Republican Sen. Josh Hawley’s riff on masculinity (as if either topic had to do with their jobs as U.S. senators) than we do on the benefits their constituents would derive from Biden’s agenda, which they oppose. Do these senators ever get queried about their own policy ideas for reducing inflation, reducing inequality or enhancing competition?​
In place of clear and accurate descriptions of GOP gambits (“voting suppression”) we get mealy-mouthed phrases (“voting changes” or “strict rules of voting”) that obscure what they are up to. Instead of emphatic debunkings we get praise for the cleverness of the GOP in forcing the Democrats to talk about a nonexistent problems (e.g. critical race theory in K-12). At times the media’s assistance in spreading GOP insults is downright cringeworthy, as when Peter Alexander quizzed the White House press secretary about a MAGA chant and asked if Biden had failed to lower the political temperature.​


I'd be incredibly surprised if even the smartest of the current GOP could come up with a cogent platform (in other words, if they say "to defeat communism," also providing a cogent, *correct* explanation - instead of just dropping a spooky soundbite to emotionally charge the base into loyal agreement). It seems to be primarily "PwN tHe LeFt."

On the other hand, more reputable sources of media need to focus on the signal/block out the noise more. And start getting input from the sane conservatives about how they are not answering questions for actual conservative points of view.

The problem is they don't need a cogent platform, especially not if the Democrats don't have anything to offer anyone.
 

Coriolis

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He may destroy the republican party as we currently know it, but what arises from those ashes is what I'd be the most worried about.
The Republican party has been on the decline for at least a generation, eaten away from the inside by hypocrisy and contradiction. Democrats have their troubles, too, but not of this nature or magnitude. Trump was just the final death knell. We need responsible, rational conservative voices in our political discourse, but they have been jumping ship or getting silenced since well before Trump. He is a symptom as much as a cause. The most obvious problem of Democrats has been their inability to capitalize on this state of disarray.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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The Republican party has been on the decline for at least a generation, eaten away from the inside by hypocrisy and contradiction. Democrats have their troubles, too, but not of this nature or magnitude. Trump was just the final death knell. We need responsible, rational conservative voices in our political discourse, but they have been jumping ship or getting silenced since well before Trump. He is a symptom as much as a cause. The most obvious problem of Democrats has been their inability to capitalize on this state of disarray.
I'm going to give the generous explanation for what's going on with the Democrats, and it goes as follows:

The problem with the Democrats is that they are obsessed with compromise and "coming together as a nation". Compromise is a goal for them rather than a means to an end, with some exceptions. They believe actually fighting for what they claim to believe in is "untoward", either because it seems "gauche" or because it "creates negative vibes man". I wonder to what extent this is some bizarre holdover from the 60s; the literature suggests that people actually believed just having the right vibes would have been enough to transform society.

Although I think ceecee below is probably closer to the mark for the politicians. I suppose the above would follow more for the Democratic voters.
 
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ceecee

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The Republican party has been on the decline for at least a generation, eaten away from the inside by hypocrisy and contradiction. Democrats have their troubles, too, but not of this nature or magnitude. Trump was just the final death knell. We need responsible, rational conservative voices in our political discourse, but they have been jumping ship or getting silenced since well before Trump. He is a symptom as much as a cause. The most obvious problem of Democrats has been their inability to capitalize on this state of disarray.
The Democrats are totally immobile as they are served by the identical wealthy, corporate and military interests that the Republicans are. We need rational conservatives the same way we need moderate Democrats - not at all. People can long all they want for the "across the aisle" cooperation but that died with Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton. When it comes to policy (that's what matters), there is very little difference. GOP makes these horrific choices and the Dems back them up - directly and indirectly.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Alternatively an explanation for Democratic voters being so conflict adverse (and politicians if one is inclined to be generous) might be the increased middle-classification of the Democratic party; in this sense, it's basically middle class ideas of decorum. That would explain the fetishization of norms and institutions among so called "progressives" we've seen of late; in this reading, at heart it is actually a conservative movement that differs with Republicans in regarding the 60s as "good enough" rather than "bad and should be undone". They do seem very eager to throw actual progressives under the bus the first chance they get (i.e., once their buy-in is not needed for a presidential election; also note that any electoral failures are never the fault of the moderates who actually run the show but rather some radical actually progressive movement or politician that exists somewhere).
 
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Z Buck McFate

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The problem is they don't need a cogent platform, especially not if the Democrats don't have anything to offer anyone.

You're being facetious, right? About Dems not having anything to offer. I mean, the GOP doesn't need a cogent platform because they're using spooky phrases to keep their base's loyalty stoked (like making sure Cornholio has enough sugar to keep being Cornholio, lest he calm down and start thinking a bit more logically). They seem to be running on pure hatred. And that's the only reason they don't need a platform. They're pulling any kind of bullshit out of their ass that they can, to keep the hatred burning and the cult bond strong.

When Dems DO get something popular to pass through Congress, then many (if not most) of the Republicans who voted against it tend to take credit for making it happen. It's all dangerous "socialism" and "communism" right up to the point where they're taking credit for it. And somehow? Even when it's pointed out?

My only point is that if mainstream media had more bona fide conservative input (people who are conservative beyond any shadow of a doubt, but who see the danger in the current GOP), then it would get more and more difficult for conservatives with anything going on upstairs to dismiss it all as "fake news".
The Democrats are totally immobile as they are served by the identical wealthy, corporate and military interests that the Republicans are. We need rational conservatives the same way we need moderate Democrats - not at all. People can long all they want for the "across the aisle" cooperation but that died with Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton. When it comes to policy (that's what matters), there is very little difference. GOP makes these horrific choices and the Dems back them up - directly and indirectly.
I agree completely about "moderate Democrats" (and wealthy, corporate interests) but I do think that more conservatives with an allegiance to integrity would be helpful, since it provides a basis upon which to argue the lack of integrity in people who don't have it. The default reaction to call everything they don't like propaganda from the other direction "created by the extreme left" loses its credibility with each clearly conservative voice disagreeing; it helps separate "conservative" from "Trump cult leader". Not as much as it should, obviously, but every little helps. Especially with people as staunchly conservative as Liz Cheney - calling her a RINO is a fucking joke.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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You're being facetious, right? About Dems not having anything to offer. I mean, the GOP doesn't need a cogent platform because they're using spooky phrases to keep their base's loyalty stoked (like making sure Cornholio has enough sugar to keep being Cornholio, lest he calm down and start thinking a bit more logically). They seem to be running on pure hatred. And that's the only reason they don't need a platform. They're pulling any kind of bullshit out of their ass that they can, to keep the hatred burning and the cult bond strong.

You're right that this is not entirely correct, but the only reason this is so is because there are people in the party who are popular because they actually believe in fighting for things rather than coming together as a nation. These people are actually loathed by the party insiders, but because of their popularity they have to follow their lead a bit to avoid being outflanked and stave off primary challenges and so on.

To the extent to which the Democratic party does not suck donkey balls it is because there is now a small but vocal faction dragging them kicking and screaming in a different direction, which forces them to moderate their love of compromise and coming together as a nation.

For instance, do you think the Biden administration has sufficiently reversed course on Trump's immigration initiatives? To me it seems like there is an awful lot of foot-dragging. It was a call to action during the election season, but they don't seem particularly eager to actually make it happen. They want the votes of people horrified by it, but they also want to get some mythical "moderate" republican so they don't want to rush too much to get it done.

The extent to which the Democratic party is worth voting for his nothing to do with the "reasonable" and "pragmatic" voices (that have been engaging in a sort of tango with the GOP while the building is burning) within the party that I was told over and over again was the best we could do.

The default reaction to call everything they don't like propaganda from the other direction "created by the extreme left" loses its credibility with each clearly conservative voice disagreeing; it helps separate "conservative" from "Trump cult leader".
Most conservatives I've actually interacted with (rather than seen on cable news shows on MSNBC) don't care about " adhering to conservative principles"; they just want a strong leader to follow who appeals to their id. Being a conservative meant "supporting Trump" to them, or "supporting Bush" before that. If Trump should stop being the vanguard id warrior they'll turn away from him on to someone else. It's just about a sort of fucked up personality cult appealing to base emotions; principles have nothing to do with it. Most of them are not like John Podheretz (who are actually loathsome individuals in their own way; they only difference is that they have a veneer of respectability).

I hate to burst your bubble but this kind of thing does not have the effect you think it does, but that's ok but it's a popular line in op-ed/pundit circles.
 
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ceecee

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You're being facetious, right? About Dems not having anything to offer. I mean, the GOP doesn't need a cogent platform because they're using spooky phrases to keep their base's loyalty stoked (like making sure Cornholio has enough sugar to keep being Cornholio, lest he calm down and start thinking a bit more logically). They seem to be running on pure hatred. And that's the only reason they don't need a platform. They're pulling any kind of bullshit out of their ass that they can, to keep the hatred burning and the cult bond strong.

When Dems DO get something popular to pass through Congress, then many (if not most) of the Republicans who voted against it tend to take credit for making it happen. It's all dangerous "socialism" and "communism" right up to the point where they're taking credit for it. And somehow? Even when it's pointed out?

My only point is that if mainstream media had more bona fide conservative input (people who are conservative beyond any shadow of a doubt, but who see the danger in the current GOP), then it would get more and more difficult for conservatives with anything going on upstairs to dismiss it all as "fake news".

I agree completely about "moderate Democrats" (and wealthy, corporate interests) but I do think that more conservatives with an allegiance to integrity would be helpful, since it provides a basis upon which to argue the lack of integrity in people who don't have it. The default reaction to call everything they don't like propaganda from the other direction "created by the extreme left" loses its credibility with each clearly conservative voice disagreeing; it helps separate "conservative" from "Trump cult leader". Not as much as it should, obviously, but every little helps. Especially with people as staunchly conservative as Liz Cheney - calling her a RINO is a fucking joke.

All cooperate media is not worth paying attention to - it makes no difference what side its on. It's only focus is on revenue $$ and clicks. They answer to shareholders - not viewers. Knowing that makes looking for and paying attention to legit independent media much easier and much more informative.

I don't believe moderate Democrats have any more integrity than Republicans and American conservatism is its own special kind of mental illness at this point. I don't care what they say and I don't care what they think. Democrats refuse to make progressive policy that is WIDELY supported, even in places where Democrats govern virtually alone.

I care that they make policy choices that harm the majority and pander to a tiny minority of wealthy and corporate interests. And as far as those GOP allies that the Democrats are always falling over themselves to appease and want to work with to make it appear that they are humping both sides to death....

ALL responsible for why Congress has become so incredibly dysfunctional over the past two decades...


The very best part of this article, the guy so many moderates adored...

After Republicans regained control of the Senate, McCain voted in favor of the nuclear option in order to get Neil Gorsuch confirmed to the Supreme Court. Today, judicial nominations can no longer be filibustered, although the legislative filibuster still exists.
So again I say - we need moderate Democrats and rational Republicans not at all.

BTW. Republicans are going to legalize pot at the federal level - something Joe Biden refuses to do. The only conclusion I can draw is that Dems want to lose to stop progressives and progressive policy from actually being implemented so much, they are ok with political suicide.
 
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