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Random Politics Thread

Virtual ghost

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@Virtual ghost Okay, that I can agree with. As I understand it: "rugged individualism" really took off as a popular ideal during Reagan's administration, but it's really just Social Darwinism and it's not a fertile soil for security. Let alone en masse security. Unless you're super rich, but even then it's not enough to truly feel secure (it secures riches, but how secure can people really feel surrounded by a dystopia they help perpetuate).


As far as I understand this actually started with colonization of the west. While 1980s where simply the time when the clock started to run backwards in various cultural issues.
But yes, eventually the rich will fall as well in this dystopia, since their customers will be gone. What means that their businesses will be gone and even what they privately have will be kinda useless (especially if it is in digital form). Because if basic production of goods brakes they will have nothing to keep even their closest employees. Over the history this is the dead end a number of countries/elites have hit, since it is the common people that make them both powerful in practice. Therefore when the society completely brakes down the rich will go with it. Even if the people don't decide to go after the elite as some sort of revenge. Of course US is built on the premise that there will never be some radical and swift changes at home but that isn't how reality works if you cross a few red lines of human nature.
 

Kephalos

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Who do these people think they are? Seriously...4,745,657 are dead.
"Wearing a mask in a grocery store for a little while is not a big issue," Chun said. "Wearing a mask in a restaurant when you get to take it off to eat and drink is not a big issue either. But for the Financial District's offices, people don’t want to come into an office if they have to mask up for 10 hours, especially if they're vaccinated. People are not coming back until that's removed, and we won’t have customers until it's removed. There is definitely a financial cost."
 

Virtual ghost

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With democrats loosing support generally the race for governor in Virginia is looking increasingly tight. Some are even defining it as a toss up at this point (since the blue lead is within margin of error).
 

ceecee

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With democrats loosing support generally the race for governor in Virginia is looking increasingly tight. Some are even defining it as a toss up at this point (since the blue lead is within margin of error).
Always amazing to me that the only other option is voting for a Republican. People can run off at the mouth on how the parties are almost the same but if they actually meant that, they wouldn't vote at all.
 

Stigmata

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Always amazing to me that the only other option is voting for a Republican. People can run off at the mouth on how the parties are almost the same but if they actually meant that, they wouldn't vote at all.
100%

The democratic party agenda, one that is seeking to materially improve the quality of life for everyday Americans, is being held up by a handful of bought and paid for conservative leaning democrats and the entirety of the Republican party.

Whereas Republicans seek to pander to the average American who is struggling to get by, by redirecting their anger towards a series of endless culture wars and inciting racial division, all while not only not providing any meaningful legislation at all that helps their constituencies, but actively seeking to further enriching the corporate ruling class who seeks to further perpetuate the system that keeps them struggling.

One party doesn't have enough representatives in government to enact their agenda that would be a net benefit to average people, whereas the other one proudly gives you the middle finger on matters of public welfare, while actively feeding you disinformation in the middle of a public health crisis.

It just seems insane that the options are "You democrats better find a way to do everything in your ambitious agenda or else we'll elect the Republicans again to go back to doing nothing and ruining the government!"
 

Z Buck McFate

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Just a reminder to spread the acrimony appropriately.

Screenshot_2021-09-26-19-21-11~2.png


The theory that too many of these Democrats are reacting like it's 30 years ago and norms haven't *drastically* and abruptly been changed by the other side several times over now - and they just can't bring themselves to accept/behave according to the new rules - seems to fit best to me. But their adherence to a decorum that no longer exists is going to blow up the country.
 

Virtual ghost

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Always amazing to me that the only other option is voting for a Republican. People can run off at the mouth on how the parties are almost the same but if they actually meant that, they wouldn't vote at all.


Yeah but that is kinda the problem. The elections will happen regardless if they personally vote or not. Therefore many vote over relatively small differences.
 

Doctor Anaximander

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Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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At the same time I'm not sure what people expected when the political momentum was built entirely around the rallying cry of "restoring norms". What did people think that meant?

The norms involved lying about a war that destabilized an entire region and absolutely no attempts were made to ever hold anyone accountable for it. (And yes, it was known that the reports about Iraq trying to obtain yellowcake from Nigeria was fraudulent before the war started. People in power either didn't know (which means that they are incompetent), or didn't care. Either way it makes it pretty clear that they aren't people you can trust overall. It was not just a matter of "bad intelligence" but people not giving a damn and wanting to a do a thing anyway and content to use whatever justification they could, or people being dumb fucks with less awareness of world events than a high school sophomore, despite their all-important expertise, experience, and qualifications.

Why would people have thought returning to those norms (even if we could, which we can't) would be sufficient to get us out of all the messes we are in? The goal of the political project was to attempt to restore the status quo, not to solve current problems or secure a future or anything like that. The thinking even of the "progressive" party was more or less backwards looking as well... given that, how can it possibly be suited to the present moment?

I hate to say it, but to me it seems like the reason people fell for "restore the norms" was that they just don't care about the human cost of our imperial adventures if it isn't something the media is running a story on 24/7 (like women in Afghanistan recently). It took Americans dying from COVID in the US for them to feel like we'd drifted from some sort of acceptable baseline, and that might be giving people too much credit. More likely it was more about Melania tearing up the rose garden and the "dignity of the office" and so forth.

At least Obama offered a vague "hope and change". It was never really explained exactly what that mean (what exactly will change?), but that was part of the genius in it. People could fill in the blanks for whatever they liked. This time we just got bullshit about a mythical past, except unlike the ones conservatives talk about, this was one within living memory of everyone of voting age, who should have been able to see that it wasn't all that great before Trump swooped in.

I realize morally hectoring people for waking up from apathy too late does nobody any good and people hate it, but I just need to vent. We've been living in a 1984-esque world where truth doesn't matter since way before Trump. Trump didn't invent the "post truth" era, he's just trashy enough that people lost comfort with it. I know this is going to read as an obnoxious "I told you so" statement which it probably is, but I feel a need to say it regardless. It turns out shrugging off wrongdoing abroad has ripple effects that enable wrongdoing domestically.
 
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Z Buck McFate

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At the same time I'm not sure what people expected when the political momentum was built entirely around the rallying cry of "restoring norms". What did people think that meant?

The norms involved lying about a war that destabilized an entire region and absolutely no attempts were made to ever hold anyone accountable for it. (And yes, it was known that the reports about Iraq trying to obtain yellowcake from Nigeria was fraudulent before the war started. People in power either didn't know (which means that they are incompetent), or didn't care. Either way it makes it pretty clear that they aren't people you can trust overall. It was not just a matter of "bad intelligence" but people not giving a damn and wanting to a do a thing anyway and content to use whatever justification they could, or people being dumb fucks with less awareness of world events than a high school sophomore, despite their all-important expertise, experience, and qualifications.

Why would people have thought returning to those norms (even if we could, which we can't) would be sufficient to get us out of all the messes we are in? The goal of the political project was to attempt to restore the status quo, not to solve current problems or secure a future or anything like that. The thinking even of the "progressive" party was more or less backwards looking as well... given that, how can it possibly be suited to the present moment?

I hate to say it, but to me it seems like the reason people fell for "restore the norms" was that they just don't care about the human cost of our imperial adventures if it isn't something the media is running a story on 24/7 (like women in Afghanistan recently). It took Americans dying from COVID in the US for them to feel like we'd drifted from some sort of acceptable baseline, and that might be giving people too much credit. More likely it was more about Melania tearing up the rose garden and the "dignity of the office" and so forth.

At least Obama offered a vague "hope and change". It was never really explained exactly what that mean (what exactly will change?), but that was part of the genius in it. People could fill in the blanks for whatever they liked. This time we just got bullshit about a mythical past, except unlike the ones conservatives talk about, this was one within living memory of everyone of voting age, who should have been able to see that it wasn't all that great before Trump swooped in.

I realize morally hectoring people for waking up from apathy too late does nobody any good and people hate it, but I just need to vent. We've been living in a 1984-esque world where truth doesn't matter since way before Trump. Trump didn't invent the "post truth" era, he's just trashy enough that people lost comfort with it. I know this is going to read as an obnoxious "I told you so" statement which it probably is, but I feel a need to say it regardless. It turns out shrugging off wrongdoing abroad has ripple effects that enable wrongdoing domestically.
One thing I'll say in defense of norms, though - even if those norms need a lot of improvement - is that solid norms provide a stable footing to exist in. "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't," and all that. Being bum-rushed by bad things that were anticipated is generally less stressful than by things that weren't, proportionately in the degree to which they were/weren't anticipated.

The thing about Melania and the Rose Garden though, if it seems like that gets brought up too much: I suspect it's just a symbol of all the repugnant, excessive entitlement that whole family had the entire time that pig was in office. eta: I'm just glad they didn't have time to cover the entire place in tacky gold paint before they left.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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One thing I'll say in defense of norms, though - even if those norms need a lot of improvement - is that solid norms provide a stable footing to exist in. "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't," and all that. Being bum-rushed by bad things that were anticipated is generally less stressful than by things that weren't, proportionately in the degree to which they were/weren't anticipated.

The thing about Melania and the Rose Garden though, if it seems like that gets brought up too much: I suspect it's just a symbol of all the repugnant, excessive entitlement that whole family had the entire time that pig was in office.
Having a feeling of certainty or autonomy has been proven to have psychological benefits, even if that feeling is illusory.

My main issue is how little political autonomy I actually have when what's been drilled into since I was a kid over and over again is how great this place is because you can have autonomy . I never get to choose between candidates who have a meaningful difference of opinion on so many issues that actually matter to me. Which is why I hate listening people to go on about stuff that doesn't matter like the White House Rose Garden or the dignity of the office being tarnished. The idea is that I'm supposed to be content and grateful that I can vote on what White House landscaping will look like, that this is supposed to be a meaningful choice that makes all the other terrible shit going on in this country bearable. It is not. The candidates weren't the same, but they were not as different as I think they needed to be, and that matters a great deal to me by this point.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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If I felt like I actually did have the power to change things, maybe I'd feel differently about all of this, but I don't. Not on a federal level. I'd love for someone to convince me that I'm wrong but I've never seen anyone actually even try. Which makes me think that the only reason they think that is because they were raised to think that, and that they'd rather stick with that because it makes them happier, not because it is actually true. To me it seems like they believe that, and they don't know why.
 

Virtual ghost

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The transatlantic relationship descends into a food fight


With current cards on the table this is old problem that can't really be settled, as a matter of fact this will probably only get worse. Since one side wants mass production and profit at any cost while the other doesn't consider the final product of that to be food. What means that it is more and more setting its own standards and it is trying to export it's model. Which will require more people in the industry but the final product should be considerably better final product. Something that first side sees as existential threat.


“There are a number of nations who believe strongly that we can’t sacrifice productivity in order to reach a sustainability goal,”

Questionable long term logic.
 

Doctor Anaximander

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Always amazing to me that the only other option is voting for a Republican. People can run off at the mouth on how the parties are almost the same but if they actually meant that, they wouldn't vote at all.
there were no third party candidates this year.
 

Kephalos

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With current cards on the table this is old problem that can't really be settled, as a matter of fact this will probably only get worse. Since one side wants mass production and profit at any cost while the other doesn't consider the final product of that to be food. What means that it is more and more setting its own standards and it is trying to export it's model. Which will require more people in the industry but the final product should be considerably better final product. Something that first side sees as existential threat.
I'll support whatever reduces the impact of agriculture on climate change, as long as it is not some big subsidy-with-protectionism scheme for Eurozone farmers.
 

ceecee

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If I felt like I actually did have the power to change things, maybe I'd feel differently about all of this, but I don't. Not on a federal level. I'd love for someone to convince me that I'm wrong but I've never seen anyone actually even try. Which makes me think that the only reason they think that is because they were raised to think that, and that they'd rather stick with that because it makes them happier, not because it is actually true. To me it seems like they believe that, and they don't know why.
There are young people that think the moon landing was fake. Not so much because of the conspiracies but because there is no way the US could ever do anything that big and groundbreaking in their minds. They've never seen different so why would they believe otherwise?
 
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