"Hunger Games" mentality? (Eugenics vs Diversity)

[ygolo]

There are people on the right and center who complain about "the woke mind virus".
My interpretation of that phrase is the characterization of the left taking oversimplified positions that always villainized the actors with more power in every situation.

I must admit, I've seen enough people who might be characterized like that with recent events that I no longer believe a toxic woke mindset is fully a red herring.

Nevertheless, I am reminded of the fake "War on Christmas" that eventually turned into a real thing because of the polarization that happened.

I see the same dynamic happening in the woke vs anti-woke polarization.

One can see an opposing "mind virus" taking root among the anti-woke.

In particular, the virus is disguised by talking about the importance of promoting "excellence".

Who could be against that? If people want to be the "Michael Jordan" of a situation, of course you would expect them to have a certain(almost superhuman) level of capability and effort.

But the anti-woke mind virus works in a multi-part transfer of the virus. The second part of the virus comes from the notion that every single person needs to be the best at something to participate in the economic world.

The sum, even though the mind-virus inflicted never says it out loud, is that you have to be Michael Jordan good at something to survive. That is some Hunger Games sh*t right there (It is, thankfully, far from being true, but if the anti-woke had their way it would be).

The anti-woke equates pure survival to being rich. The only way you make it out of the various “districts” of the rural working class, the urban working class, the academic working class, what have-you, is to out-compete and destroy all comers in a game that people were forced into playing from birth. Then you can go to the “capitol” of capital allocators and be one of the people who funds these games. Again, some Hunger Games sh*t.

The anti-woke could make use of a good dose of the notion of finite vs. infinite games and understand that if humanity as a whole is playing a game, we should see it as an infinite game:

Another aspect of the cure for the anti-woke mind virus is to understand the importance of biodiversity, even in humans:
https://royalsociety.org/topics-policy/projects/biodiversity/why-is-biodiversity-important/
It is in fact good for humanity for the mentally and physically challenged, the down-trodden, and the socio-economically disadvantaged to survive and thrive in the world.

The anti-woke would prefer a world where the “herd” were culled Spartan-style to have only “winners” in their herd. Eugenics-much? Remember, if there ever really was a day of the rope, we’d all be swinging next to each other–all of us have “flaws” in the eyes of all eugenicists.

There are two realities to be aware of from statistics:
Merit is more about who your daddy was/is than ever before in the modern US. So when you are having these anti-woke competitions it is more about what you were born into than it was in the 40s.
To understand the difference in lack of economic mobility in US, you need to not only look at the basic stats:

Economic Mobility and Opportunity | Gates Foundation

Our team works to help the U.S. economic system better meet the needs of those experiencing poverty and significantly increase their opportunities to achieve economic success.

www.gatesfoundation.org

Economic mobility is decreasing in the United States. Among people born in the U.S. in 1940, 90% went on to earn more than their parents did. For those born in the 1980s, that figure has dropped to 50%.

But compare the opportunity map
https://www.opportunityatlas.org/


With the cost of living map:
https://meric.mo.gov/data/cost-living-data-series

When people are trying to spend all their time just trying to make ends-meet in historically high mobility places, they are going to have an even harder time than ever before.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

The anti-woke would prefer a world where the “herd” were culled Spartan-style to have only “winners” in their herd. Eugenics-much? Remember, if there ever really was a day of the rope, we’d all be swinging next to each other–all of us have “flaws” in the eyes of all eugenicists.

Positive eugenics is certainly coming back into fashion, although you'll hear it described as pro-natalism.

Anyone remember these guys?

There's a month where I couldn't escape seeing these two next to an article about "Meet the Elite Couple Trying to Save the Human Race". I clicked on the article, and I realized, oh, this is positive eugenics for the 21st century.

‘Hipster eugenics’: why is the media cosying up to people who want to build a super race?

There’s a thin line between the ‘pro-natalist’ movement and the ‘great replacement theory’

www.theguardian.com

OG article:

Meet the ‘elite’ couples breeding to save mankind

With global birth rates in free fall, Silicon Valley’s ‘pronatalists’ are aiming to halt the decline – by having as many babies as possible

www.telegraph.co.uk

Frankly I think whether or not someone has kids, and how many they have, is nobody's business on me. I decided I do not, for reasons I won't get into here, and that should be my own decision to make.

 

[The Cat]

Positive eugenics is certainly coming back into fashion, although you'll hear it described as pro-natalism.

Anyone remember these guys?

There's a month where I couldn't escape seeing these two next to an article about "Meet the Elite Couple Trying to Save the Human Race". I clicked on the article, and I realized, oh, this is positive eugenics for the 21st century.

‘Hipster eugenics’: why is the media cosying up to people who want to build a super race?

There’s a thin line between the ‘pro-natalist’ movement and the ‘great replacement theory’

www.theguardian.com

yeah i was hoping this was gonna go back to gattica and be forgotten but they'll never let it be

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

yeah i was hoping this was gonna go back to gattica and be forgotten but they'll never let it be

I'm afraid not.

 

[The Cat]

I'm afraid not.

Its frustrating because so much of this gets put in Ufology you can't study the psychology or the unique aspects of the world building that goes into alienesque conspiracy theories without having to wade through just some of the worst eugenics shit being passed off as tenets. I think a lot of this stuff has clung on because of Operation Paperclip. I also thinks thats why so many of the proponents of this are in a certain upper class "echelon" This stuff is held up generational at this point. Like the lost cause for poor southerners.

 

[ceecee]

The "woke mind virus" is just another way to say "cultural Marxism" which is a more recent version of "cultural Bolshevism" that the Nazis used. The right doesn't have an original thought, they never have as they pollute their mind with fear and "the other" and what terror hides just around the corner. I would like to feel more sympathy for just how messed up their minds are but the actions of several of them stop me from doing that. In the US there is a war being waged on women, on children, black and brown, disabled, LGBTQ+ and anyone not white, straight and male. You have to be purposely blind to not see this.

People seriously need to start taking the global right wing seriously, stop insisting it's political and they don't want to talk politics and pay attention to what it's doing to people everywhere. What's happening in Gaza right now is a result of this demagoguery if you need an example. Eugenics is part and parcel here and 100% white supremacy. Only white people would walk around saying they're breeding to save mankind and not get called out literally every time they took a step.

Incidentally, speaking of Sparta - the Spartan party, far right, ultra religious, endorsed by the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn members won the elections there back in June. Just one of a much broader trend in Europe.

 

[ceecee]

 

[The Cat]

queer eye for the fascist guy. It's kind of tragically ironic.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

queer eye for the fascist guy. It's kind of tragically ironic.

I've seen this kind of thing happen a lot.

 

[SensEye]

There are people on the right and center who complain about "the woke mind virus".
My interpretation of that phrase is the characterization of the left taking oversimplified positions that always villainized the actors with more power in every situation.

I'm one of those people in the center who does indeed complain about "the woke mind virus". Although, I refer to simply as "woke-ism". More of a belief system. I would not characterize it so much as the left taking oversimplified positions, as the left taking dogmatic positions.

The "woke" left will tell you what is correct (because they are woke, and therefore enlightened). If you don't agree with their position, you are "un-woke" and unenlightened, and therefore incorrect. No further discussion is required, and often, not tolerated.

OTOH, the far right are also very dogmatic about their positions.

I don't like dogma wherever it comes from, so I find both extremes very annoying.

I see the same dynamic happening in the woke vs anti-woke polarization.

One can see an opposing "mind virus" taking root among the anti-woke.

I'm not sure how much I agree with what you say here. But if we presume you are correct, and the "woke mind virus" has lead to an opposing "anti-woke mind virus", would not the obvious conclusion be to eliminate the "woke mind virus" as it is the root cause of the opposing one?

 

[ygolo]

The "woke mind virus" is just another way to say "cultural Marxism" which is a more recent version of "cultural Bolshevism" that the Nazis used. The right doesn't have an original thought, they never have as they pollute their mind with fear and "the other" and what terror hides just around the corner. I would like to feel more sympathy for just how messed up their minds are but the actions of several of them stop me from doing that. In the US there is a war being waged on women, on children, black and brown, disabled, LGBTQ+ and anyone not white, straight and male. You have to be purposely blind to not see this.

People seriously need to start taking the global right wing seriously, stop insisting it's political and they don't want to talk politics and pay attention to what it's doing to people everywhere. What's happening in Gaza right now is a result of this demagoguery if you need an example. Eugenics is part and parcel here and 100% white supremacy. Only white people would walk around saying they're breeding to save mankind and not get called out literally every time they took a step.

Incidentally, speaking of Sparta - the Spartan party, far right, ultra religious, endorsed by the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn members won the elections there back in June. Just one of a much broader trend in Europe.

I suppose my post was a weird reaction to the events I have seen. I've stayed away from the actual topic because things are so raw, and I am still processing it. Also I would certainly be talking out of my depth. I believe, however, that the nature of discourse in the world should be such that people can honestly state the often strong opinions and be willing to wrong about it and change their minds.

With that said, please note that whatever strong opinions I state, I still, in my heart, hold respect, and am willing to change my opinions. Speaking emotionally about topics I know little about is well out of my comfort zone, but I think discourse is served by people doing so, but being open to change.

My stance (right now):
I believe be-headings are wrong, unequivocally. I believe intentional attacks on civilians population are wrong. I think people expressing glee in this suffering is reprehensible. I think not condemning the violence in a positions of leadership are an abdication of leadership.

However, statements about the Arab people not holding values that free-thinking people have is also repugnant.

Remember where algebra, algorithms, and numeral system come from? Before the crusades, one could say the Middle East and Arabia was in fact the center of free thought. The Arab people are a people, not mob trying to wipe Israel of the map. I have for over a decade collaborated with both Jewish and Arab colleagues holding onto their original citizenship. One Jewish professor and a devout Muslim professor are actually the closest of friends (and I would even say some of their collaborative work could one day win a Nobel in Chemistry).

The leadership is horrible. Hamas is not doing the Arab people any favors, and the people would be better served if Hamas was gone. They've embedded deeply in their people making it hard to distinguish.

But Netenyahu (who many of Israel wants to see in prison) has been fomenting opposition to peace and wanting Hamas to stay in leadership so that he could maintain power in Israel.

Nominally, Netenyahu and Abbas (who I still believe to be a holocaust denier) are enemies. But the realities of the power dynamic is that they are allies in mutually keeping the other in power. I don't think there is an actual conspiracy, but an incentive structure to hold onto power and a common mindset can have exactly the same effect.

I'm one of those people in the center who does indeed complain about "the woke mind virus". Although, I refer to simply as "woke-ism". More of a belief system. I would not characterize it so much as the left taking oversimplified positions, as the left taking dogmatic positions.

The "woke" left will tell you what is correct (because they are woke, and therefore enlightened). If you don't agree with their position, you are "un-woke" and unenlightened, and therefore incorrect. No further discussion is required, and often, not tolerated.

OTOH, the far right are also very dogmatic about their positions.

I don't like dogma wherever it comes from, so I find both extremes very annoying.


I'm not sure how much I agree with what you say here. But if we presume you are correct, and the "woke mind virus" has lead to an opposing "anti-woke mind virus", would not the obvious conclusion be to eliminate the "woke mind virus" as it is the root cause of the opposing one?

Just like with @ceecee, I will state my opinions as authentically as I hold them, but realize that a strong opinion does not mean I am unwilling to change my mind. I think it is more important to wrong openly in this moment, than to let internal opinions fester.

Debating about this is largely semantics in that the phenomenon either side has morphed and changed its branding multiple times. It is a little like the chicken-and-egg debate.

But here is my view of the history: I do not believe in the history of events, in-terms of strong public awareness, wokeness is the first things in the cycle of recent events. I think wokeness became especially loud in the face of the strong Alt-right movement that started in 2015.

2015 was when the likes of Richard Spencer, a once open white nationalist, openly declared that he would actively campaign to mainstream white supremacist ideas. He equated minorities doing better with white people doing worse. He stated his intentions pretty plainly in interviews with Steve Bannon and on the Reveal podcast. At the time he didn't have the "woke" label to work with but he was promoting the same ideas about being white nationalists being the silent majority, about political correctness being the things that's destroying society, about "social justice warriors". It was clear in 2016 that his efforts were working, even while doing the heil Hitler salute in public forums.

The arguments he packaged in 2015 are being said almost word for word, not just by white nationalists, but many people who at one-time seemed like very reasonable people, and given my ethnicity, there are a lot of Asians amenable to this sentiment as well. I think the best way to characterize the broader movement is "Eugenics".

"Woke" really seemed to become a thing in 2018. "Woke" came out of urban slang exactly as a complement for people being aware of certain injustices. It had been urban slang for quite some time (I think it goes back to 2010, at least). It really didn't get co-opted by the right till somewhere around the Q-annon's gain in popularity (Q-annon started in 2017).

I do believe that there is now true toxic form of "wokeness" where people become rather rabid, and essentially give up on having dialogue. "I just can't". "I'm done with this." etc. I would say this really didn't show up that much till 2020. There have always been individual incidents, but the trend didn't happen till there were debates around what I still to this day believe is a coup attempt by trying to get the 2020 election overturned.

I am not sure "anti-woke" is a popular term at all or if it ever will be.

With all that said, it is not simply a cycle that needs to stop. Both toxic "wokeness" and eugenics need to be stopped independently. They are both bad independently.

But professors who are dogmatic are only annoying. The eugenics movement is an existential threat to those the eugenicists deem "weak".

 

[ygolo]

Also, I realize that it is important for people to articulate their frameworks for thinking about things. This doesn't mean we aren't open to changing our minds about it.

But here is one of mine I believe is important to establish:
All other things being equal, evil deeds are worse than evil words, which in turn are worse than evil thoughts.

Mindset is an internal struggle and not one that ought to be punished as thought crimes.

Free speech, even when repugnant, if it doesn't incite violence, I think should be allowed. It is better to air these things out.

 

[ceecee]

I'm one of those people in the center who does indeed complain about "the woke mind virus". Although, I refer to simply as "woke-ism". More of a belief system. I would not characterize it so much as the left taking oversimplified positions, as the left taking dogmatic positions.

The "woke" left will tell you what is correct (because they are woke, and therefore enlightened). If you don't agree with their position, you are "un-woke" and unenlightened, and therefore incorrect. No further discussion is required, and often, not tolerated.

OTOH, the far right are also very dogmatic about their positions.

I don't like dogma wherever it comes from, so I find both extremes very annoying.


I'm not sure how much I agree with what you say here. But if we presume you are correct, and the "woke mind virus" has lead to an opposing "anti-woke mind virus", would not the obvious conclusion be to eliminate the "woke mind virus" as it is the root cause of the opposing one?

The only people using the term "woke mind virus" are the people that have some kind of issue with being woke. Woke people don't use the term "woke" at all. Perhaps we should eliminate the term completely but remember, you are labeling being "alert to racial prejudice and discrimination". Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as racial justice, sexism and LGBT rights" as some kind of sickness. The people carping about a "woke mind virus" are running into people unwilling to allow the above to continue and say so. That isn't intolerance.

Just for clarity - the far right are not just dogmatic in their positions. They're extremists and are committing crimes, including murder, not to mention constant harassment of virtually anyone that doesn't bend the knee to their bullshit (teachers, health care, fireman, school board members...). Who is intolerant exactly? The data that I see repeatedly, year after year in the US points to right wing violence as the top domestic concern by all law enforcement - white supremacy, Christians nationalism, authoritarianism and creeping fascism to just name a few. Either you support this or you don't.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I am from far away and I will say that I don't relate to this picture of the world.
In other words in the Slavic lands this dynamic looks differently. For me the ideology described is purely centrist, since center believes in the markets, individualism and competition ... and being more like the west. While the Slavic right doesn't make some kind of religion out of that. They just want to keeps the place as it is, have family values implemented, they tends to build a fair share of safety nets, they want average job/life ... and that is pretty much it. My local centrists are still in the shock that the right recently banned stores from working on Sunday. Reasoning: Sunday will be the day for rest, for family to get together, to go to church, to visit family or friends ... etc. I mean in my case the centrists are what you considered to be the right in the English speaking world.

As a matter of fact I see that various shades of the right are joining the Socialists to fight "the woke virus". Since for them both this is kinda the other side of the medal called centrism or globalism. Because as soon as you get dragged into woke/anti-woke debate you have basically lost. Since that basically means that you have dysfunctional society like the west at this point. While the socialists are fighting woke because these people have moved in and are overtaking their base. Plus older socialists are quite likely to see woke as something that will erode welfare state. Because the ideology seems as too reckless and it is basically linked to "centrism" as some kind of anti-thesis of it. Since woke is dependent on centrism, because market based solutions are giving woke it's meaning. So once you remove them the woke becomes kinda pointless. I mean the socialists are in general pretty anti-west, so they don't like woke (and they are having lunches with Orban). Therefore here woke stuff are basically foreign element that just about every other option wants to see gone. What could happen due to coordinated pressures and not too strong foothold of the woke.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

What do we mean by woke, anyway? I would like clarification on what is meant before I get too involved in this. I associate it with more diverse casting in Hollywood. This to my mind can be a good thing if the movie is also good. I think some of these movies are failing more because they just aren't that good, but people making it to mean more that.

 

[ceecee]

What do we mean by woke, anyway? I would like clarification on what is meant before I get too involved in this. I associate it with more diverse casting in Hollywood. This to my mind can be a good thing if the movie is also good. I think some of these movies are failing more because they just aren't that good, but people making it to mean more that.

Regardless of a person being religious or not, the use of dominionism in Republican policy, naturally not stated, is a foundation for their version of reconstruction that denies the American Enlightenment as the basis for American democracy. Most importantly they see the US Constitution as a vehicle for implementing Biblical principals. I think that diversity in films are all part of the larger attack on invade the "seven spheres" of society identified as family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business, and government. I mean you can't look at everything that has happened and is currently happening in the US and tell me that the larger right isn't attempting to do these things.

It goes without saying that a idea like being "woke" - The term was originally coined by progressive Black Americans and used in racial justice movements in the early to mid-1900s. To be "woke" politically in the Black community means that someone is informed, educated and conscious of social injustice and racial inequality, Merriam-Webster Dictionary states. One of its earliest uses was in a historical recording of the protest song "Scottsboro Boys" by Lead Belly. In that recording, it was used as a term about staying aware of the potential for racist violence as a Black person in America." - isn't going to be welcomed by virulent racists, bigots and people perverting religion for catastrophic ends. But if someone says "woke mind virus" enough and it goes in the ear people even mildly uncomfortable with change or social upheaval, they'll find some of those people willing converts to the destruction of the country. Anyone protesting this will be labeled commies or leftists or Marxist or whatever idiot term used by people that don't know what any of those words even mean. Or woke.