Rabid Feminist Becomes the Next Dr. Who (Is this finally The End?)

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I much don't care for ideological pronouncements, although when a particular threshold has been crossed, it can be expected that someone will comment on it as a barrier that has now been broken.

But as I noted before, it shouldn't even be viewed as a political thing. it seemed like Doctor Who took a masculine form originally because that was the convention at the time for all this stuff. It wasn't to say something about men, or because a Time Lord had to be male, or even that every incarnation of a Time Lord or Doctor Who in particular had to be one gender or another; it was just done that way because that was how it was being done and because it had always been done that way. In fact, this process they developed to introduce a replacement actor for the Doctor gave them a lot of flexibility in how the character manifests... and isn't scifi is really about?

How many scifi books have characters exploring life from either gender? It runs at least as far back as Heinlein and no doubt further. Chalker did it a ton, although it was hard to know what he thought about it since women were typically at a disadvantage in his stories... maybe that was a comment on the social disadvantage?

So the Time Lord reincarnation is much like the Trill symbionts in Star Trek. The body can change, the essence just manifests itself through the host form. It not only makes sense, it almost seems necessary for the host form to make some radical shifts. Wouldn't it be interesting to see the Doctor as Asian or black? What about as a young boy rather than as a grown man? How would people's reactions to him change? It could be pretty fascinating... and that kind of exploration is part and parcel of real science fiction.

I'm kind of surprised it took 13 incarnations to the Doctor to not be a white Brit male on a serious basis (aside from Lumley in the Comic Relief sketch), considering the genre.





if the genders want to trade, I guess women can hand over the character Little Annie Fannie to become Little Arnie.

exactly. We had a white Captain Kirk, it wasn't really an issue that they wanted to promote the agenda of White Guys being at the top so much as going with what the culture dictated and allowed. So the producers pushed the envelope in other ways by having an Asian and a black woman, and yeah they were basically background players who pushed buttons and said "aye sir" but it was a big deal because they were portrayed as competent and intelligent rather than stereotypes like had usually been done. But when they were able, they gave us Sisko and Janeway and it's also interesting to note that in every series after TNG, there's been one woman and one man in the top two ranking positions of captain and executive officer. If I'd rebooted Star trek, I woulda completely jumbled up the characters and had a black Kirk probably, maybe make McCoy a lady.

I'm also a little surprised we haven't had black Doctor Whos and James Bonds yet. Apparently they had a black actor in the running before going with Daniel Craig.

 

[Lord Lavender]

Hmmm I can see why people are rasing objections over this as its a break in tradition. The Doctor has always been a white British guy older than 30 so to see a big change has disturbed people. If they had non-white male Doctors in the past ti would just be another thing. My personal views are that as long as it was done out of her being the best fit overall for the direction they want to take the Doctor in and not some feminist or SJW agenda then its all good to me.

 

[Totenkindly]

e...I'm also a little surprised we haven't had black Doctor Whos and James Bonds yet. Apparently they had a black actor in the running before going with Daniel Craig.

if you mean idris elba, I think it's ironic because he is now opening next month as Roland the gunslinger (a pretty traditionally scripted white guy in King's novel).


A Wrinkle in Time is opening next year with a LOT of black / non-white cast. After thinking about it, I'm fine with that... I'm just more frustrated with the garb and presentation of some of the characters, which seem to maybe not reflect the book. .But I'll need to see more promo materials before my feelings solidify.

 

[Lark]

if you mean idris elba, I think it's ironic because he is now opening next month as Roland the gunslinger (a pretty traditionally scripted white guy in King's novel).


A Wrinkle in Time is opening next year with a LOT of black / non-white cast. After thinking about it, I'm fine with that... I'm just more frustrated with the garb and presentation of some of the characters, which seem to maybe not reflect the book. .But I'll need to see more promo materials before my feelings solidify.

I wondered was he not meant to be or very closely resemble John Wayne actually, The Gunslinger that is.

If you ask me the change in race should have been less of an issue than the change in the Dr's sex, and I wish they had gone with that idea, and perhaps something different to the traditional conception of race, bizarrely, being "white" or Afro-Carribean, what if the Dr had been asian, indian, slavic, hispanic or jewish, without being a boring stereotype either though.

To reason they decided to change the sex of the Dr is because that's the in thing at the moment, "predictably shocking" or surprising/not surprising.

 

[Lark]

Hmmm I can see why people are rasing objections over this as its a break in tradition. The Doctor has always been a white British guy older than 30 so to see a big change has disturbed people. If they had non-white male Doctors in the past ti would just be another thing. My personal views are that as long as it was done out of her being the best fit overall for the direction they want to take the Doctor in and not some feminist or SJW agenda then its all good to me.

The problem is how could it be anything other than that at the moment.

The BBC was all over the "story" reporting it as a massive and controversial development, a bold, daring move demonstrating their commitment to diversity.

Hmm, yeah. Makes me think of that whole bit in Game of Thrones where Joffrey gets told about having to actually tell other people "I'm the king"

 

[Population: 1]

James Bond should always be British and white simply because he's the same person from Connery to Craig. It's damn unlikely I'm going to wake up as a black man tomorrow so why would Bond? If 007 was a title passed to another agent that's black fine. I don't see the point in changing a character because he's a white male. The entertainment industry needs to stop rehashing old shit anyway and can start doing that by making protagonists of different races and genders to begin with.

 

[Mal12345]

How does the next doctor being a women makes her a rabid feminist?

Because Jodie Whittaker is one.

 

[Mal12345]

if you mean idris elba, I think it's ironic because he is now opening next month as Roland the gunslinger (a pretty traditionally scripted white guy in King's novel).


A Wrinkle in Time is opening next year with a LOT of black / non-white cast. After thinking about it, I'm fine with that... I'm just more frustrated with the garb and presentation of some of the characters, which seem to maybe not reflect the book. .But I'll need to see more promo materials before my feelings solidify.

I'm more worried about the scene where Roland loads his pistol's cylinder with 6 bullets in about 2 seconds, flips the cylinder up in the air and catches it in the right part of the gun to continue firing. That's a very handy talent to have in the right circumstance. But as with most of the Hollywood movies I've seen these days, that trick is quite over the top, and I'm afraid the rest of the movie will be like that. Yes I intend to go see it, preferably the day it opens.

 

[Lark]

I much don't care for ideological pronouncements, although when a particular threshold has been crossed, it can be expected that someone will comment on it as a barrier that has now been broken.

But as I noted before, it shouldn't even be viewed as a political thing. it seemed like Doctor Who took a masculine form originally because that was the convention at the time for all this stuff. It wasn't to say something about men, or because a Time Lord had to be male, or even that every incarnation of a Time Lord or Doctor Who in particular had to be one gender or another; it was just done that way because that was how it was being done and because it had always been done that way. In fact, this process they developed to introduce a replacement actor for the Doctor gave them a lot of flexibility in how the character manifests... and isn't scifi is really about?

How many scifi books have characters exploring life from either gender? It runs at least as far back as Heinlein and no doubt further. Chalker did it a ton, although it was hard to know what he thought about it since women were typically at a disadvantage in his stories... maybe that was a comment on the social disadvantage?

So the Time Lord reincarnation is much like the Trill symbionts in Star Trek. The body can change, the essence just manifests itself through the host form. It not only makes sense, it almost seems necessary for the host form to make some radical shifts. Wouldn't it be interesting to see the Doctor as Asian or black? What about as a young boy rather than as a grown man? How would people's reactions to him change? It could be pretty fascinating... and that kind of exploration is part and parcel of real science fiction.

I'm kind of surprised it took 13 incarnations to the Doctor to not be a white Brit male on a serious basis (aside from Lumley in the Comic Relief sketch), considering the genre.





if the genders want to trade, I guess women can hand over the character Little Annie Fannie to become Little Arnie.

I just dont see why it is so necessary a move or development, the show has always had, and I mean from the very, very earliest black and white episodes, strong female leads of every description and they've been compatible and had a role at least as important as the Doctor himself at some junctures.

So I dont see it as actually being about the need for a feminine role model, there are plenty, there's at least two which have featured repeatedly, there's a lesbian one if I recall aswell, so its not about that but rather, so far as I can tell, the elimination of a male role model, or at least the elimination of an exclusively male role model. Which I think is wrong, whether its been by design or a dumb accident consequence of trying to do something clever, "controversial" or "trendy liberal", which I think it is more likely to have been.

The other thing I would say is that its less a female Doctor as it is a transexual Doctor, I'm waiting on that becoming the talking point, it'll no doubt launch a load of academic media and gender studies papers, create a buzz on line, I'm just sorry that its for what its for and not for being a great TV show with original or novel science fiction ideas. Also I struggle with what's wrong with male role models so much, I'm glad there are female role models and wouldnt dispute for a second or query why there isnt a Dr Quin, Medicine Man for sake of parity or anything like that, but then I dont know why an exclusive heterosexual bond had to be consigned to the dust bin of history too.

Just not seeing how the new world order is an improvement on the old world order yet I guess.

 

[Lark]

I'm more worried about the scene where Roland loads his pistol's cylinder with 6 bullets in about 2 seconds, flips the cylinder up in the air and catches it in the right part of the gun to continue firing. That's a very handy talent to have in the right circumstance. But as with most of the Hollywood movies I've seen these days, that trick is quite over the top, and I'm afraid the rest of the movie will be like that. Yes I intend to go see it, preferably the day it opens.

Wait, its a film? I thought it was a TV series, surely the massive collection of books involved and the time they span a series would have been a better idea?

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

if you mean idris elba, I think it's ironic because he is now opening next month as Roland the gunslinger (a pretty traditionally scripted white guy in King's novel).


A Wrinkle in Time is opening next year with a LOT of black / non-white cast. After thinking about it, I'm fine with that... I'm just more frustrated with the garb and presentation of some of the characters, which seem to maybe not reflect the book. .But I'll need to see more promo materials before my feelings solidify.

I heard that Colin Salmon had been considered at one point to succeed Brosnan, which is odd as he already played a member of M's staff in some of the Brosnan films. May have just been a rumor though. He's too old now though.

I'm actually against Idris Elba, as I think he'll be too old for the role by the time Craig retires. I think Bond ideally should be an actor between their early 30s and early 40s at the oldest. It becomes less credible when an aging guy is leaping around, they ought to have learned their lesson from the late Roger Moore films. There's plenty of younger black actors with the proper physique and looks who would jump at the chance, but it should also be a British guy, IMO, so maybe that narrows the pool of potentials a bit. I think Chiwetel Ejiofor would be nice.

 

[Mal12345]

Wait, its a film? I thought it was a TV series, surely the massive collection of books involved and the time they span a series would have been a better idea?

I just created a new thread on the movie here http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/arts-and-entertainment/91162-dark-tower-2017-a.html

 

[Lark]

Because Jodie Whittaker is one.

I dont know that for a fact, I'd suspect if she is feminist at all then she's hardly likely to be a rabid one, they are very rare outside of campaigning circles.

Its also not likely to have any sort of implication for the direction the show is taking, the actors or actresses are not the writers, I really think it remains to be seen whether beyond the change of the character's sex there's going to be much comment upon it or development in story line focused upon it. There's every likelihood that they've tried to do this believing its cleverer than it really is to try and change the fortunes of a flagging TV show which has not been able to do anything original for at least three seasons or more.

Sorry if that's not fitting with the whole misandrist conspiracy theory and all that, maybe Galifry could unmasked as home of the illuminati or something?

 

[Lark]

I heard that Colin Salmon had been considered at one point to succeed Brosnan, which is odd as he already played a member of M's staff in some of the Brosnan films. May have just been a rumor though. He's too old now though.

I'm actually against Idris Elba, as I think he'll be too old for the role by the time Craig retires. I think Bond ideally should be an actor between their early 30s and early 40s at the oldest. It becomes less credible when an aging guy is leaping around, they ought to have learned their lesson from the late Roger Moore films. There's plenty of younger black actors with the proper physique and looks who would jump at the chance, but it should also be a British guy, IMO, so maybe that narrows the pool of potentials a bit. I think Chiwetel Ejiofor would be nice.

I agree with the idea that it should be a younger actor, I hated the Roger Moore films, as implausible as the Connery being the archetypical english agent was it was much better, but I'm not sure that the ethnic mix of british should be reduced to "white" and Afro-Carribean as I said before, I hate the way that even anti-racism seems to think that there's only white and black.

 

[Mal12345]

I dont know that for a fact, I'd suspect if she is feminist at all then she's hardly likely to be a rabid one, they are very rare outside of campaigning circles.

Its also not likely to have any sort of implication for the direction the show is taking, the actors or actresses are not the writers, I really think it remains to be seen whether beyond the change of the character's sex there's going to be much comment upon it or development in story line focused upon it. There's every likelihood that they've tried to do this believing its cleverer than it really is to try and change the fortunes of a flagging TV show which has not been able to do anything original for at least three seasons or more.

Sorry if that's not fitting with the whole misandrist conspiracy theory and all that, maybe Galifry could unmasked as home of the illuminati or something?

"It feels completely overwhelming, as a feminist, as a woman, as an actor, as a human, as someone who wants to continually push themselves and challenge themselves, and not be boxed in by what you're told you can and can't be," said Whittaker.

If the BBC wants to be edgy, that's fine with me. I don't watch the stupid show anyway. I saw a little bit of it today, by accident, because it happened to be on when I turned on the "telly." It was so bad, it was terrible.

 

[Ashtart]

"It feels completely overwhelming, as a feminist, as a woman, as an actor, as a human, as someone who wants to continually push themselves and challenge themselves, and not be boxed in by what you're told you can and can't be," said Whittaker.

If the BBC wants to be edgy, that's fine with me. I don't watch the stupid show anyway. I saw a little bit of it today, by accident, because it happened to be on when I turned on the "telly." It was so bad, it was terrible.

Are you stoping watching it because of her or because you never intended to watch it anyway?

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I agree with the idea that it should be a younger actor, I hated the Roger Moore films, as implausible as the Connery being the archetypical english agent was it was much better, but I'm not sure that the ethnic mix of british should be reduced to "white" and Afro-Carribean as I said before, I hate the way that even anti-racism seems to think that there's only white and black.

Agreed. I think after they cast Connery, Fleming made a fuss about it, and eventually changed his ancestral backstory in the novels to Scottish. I think the next Bond should be as English as they come in terms of his culture, but black. I still want him high culture, eating caviar and sipping martinis made with expensive vodka. A little rough around the edges as Bond should be, but no need to come up with some elaborate backstory about his ancestry either. Besides, Bond is an orphan, so it would make sense a black guy raised in a wealthy English manor would still be very much English, culturally speaking.

TBH, I'm not too concerbed with his color, I think "diversity hiring" is silly and believe in meritocracy, but at the same time, it's been 50 years and there's no good reason to not have a black Bond or a female Dr Who, so might as well make it happen.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

"It feels completely overwhelming, as a feminist, as a woman, as an actor, as a human, as someone who wants to continually push themselves and challenge themselves, and not be boxed in by what you're told you can and can't be," said Whittaker.

If the BBC wants to be edgy, that's fine with me. I don't watch the stupid show anyway. I saw a little bit of it today, by accident, because it happened to be on when I turned on the "telly." It was so bad, it was terrible.

I have mixed thoughts on her comments but I think I already more or less summed them up earlier.

I hope they don't diminish the role and make it a PC vehicle, at the same time, I don't see a good reason to not cast a woman.

 

[Mal12345]

Are you stoping watching it because of her or because you never intended to watch it anyway?

I have only watched enough of Who to know that I am and never will be a Whovian. My step-daughter, when she was much younger, watched every newer episode of this thing that was available. So of course being a sci-fi fan I had to check it out. It's awful. Terrible.

 

[Ashtart]

I have only watched enough of Who to know that I am and never will be a Whovian. My step-daughter, when she was much younger, watched every newer episode of this thing that was available. So of course being a sci-fi fan I had to check it out. It's awful. Terrible.

I am myself a huge sci-fi fan too, never liked Dr. Who though. I've tried, but I think it is too cheap.