[NF] NFs: are you boring?

[htb]

Well yeah maybe

Or maybe not, and she's just dodgy. Hers was a thoroughgoing assertion.

 

[substitute]

Then this is an example where I should have gone to read the thread. I made the false assumption that it was basically a rant, which are commonplace on the internet. The question as it is posed: "Are NF's boring?" does not imply anything like what you just described. The title words should be chosen with more care to communicate their true meaning. Something like: "Do NF's hide what is most interesting about them?" Or something better articulated than that. The question as it is put is reasonably interpreted as a rant w/o much thought put into it because it uses a sweeping generalization expressed in derogatory wording. Seriously, you don't see that?

I was matching derogatory wording with derogatory wording. Also when I say something like... ...Does that make sense?

Haha yeah, but I didn't start the thread - Mac did, from something I said on the other board, but he put it in his OP in a way that wasn't really how I said it in my original thing over there. When I said my original post, I did actually state my example as a woman I know who's interesting and intelligent but won't share it, and presented it as observation/anecdotal/tentative while he spun it here to look like I made a sweeping generalisation or conclusion. That's why I put my disclaimer soon after the OP of this thread.

(this is also an example of an NF having to explain why it isn't emotional in the way someone has assumed.)

And here's an NT explaining that Mac is a shit stirring word twister

 

[C.J.Woolf]

And as far crossing i's and dotting t's is concerned, that may be true in the real world, but on certain internet forums NTs can make idiotic, lazy assertions and expect those statements to be treated like gold simply because of their type.

Good observation. The same backwards logic that convinces an NT that everything he says must be precise and logical can also convince an NT that everything an NF says is fuzzy-headed. I've read MBTIc and INTPc long enough to know that ain't necessarily so.

The title words should be chosen with more care to communicate their true meaning. Something like: "Do NF's hide what is most interesting about them?" Or something better articulated than that. The question as it is put is reasonably interpreted as a rant w/o much thought put into it because it uses a sweeping generalization expressed in derogatory wording. Seriously, you don't see that?

If the OP hadn't been written by an admin, one might even call it a troll.

 

[FemMecha]

And here's an NT explaining that Mac is a shit stirring word twister

I actually wondered if it was a way to see how much NFs avoid conflict, since that has peeked in as a definition for 'boring' in this thread. That's part of the reason for my 'what the hell' approach. The whole NF's are boring, SJ's are dumb, E's are shallow, etc. etc. does drive me crazy, and I stand by the fact that such things are idiotic.

btw Mac, you're a stinker! It's time for some purple nurples and you know it. ...

 

[substitute]

Good observation. The same backwards logic that convinces an NT that everything he says must be precise and logical can also convince an NT that everything an NF says is fuzzy-headed. I've read MBTIc and INTPc long enough to know that ain't necessarily so.

I didn't mean to suggest that NT's always take great care to make sure their words are consistent and logical and flawless, but more that they take great care to make sure they say exactly what they mean - though granted, what they mean can be wrong and flawed in itself, but what they mean is what they say, and vice versa, so it doesn't really help when someone starts adding other meanings to what they say that weren't implied in the clearly expressed and carefully selected words. I've no problem with being told that my idea is wrong, or flawed, or whatever - what I have the problem with is being told that I mean things that I don't mean, or intend things that I don't intend, when I went out of my way to say clearly exactly what I meant and intended.

Do you see the distinction?

 

[C.J.Woolf]

Do you see the distinction?

Yes. However, when a post is not understood as it was intended to be, it's not always cut-and-dried as to who's at fault. I have written posts that were misinterpreted, and in retrospect I had to admit they could be read in more than one way. That is, I was not precise enough. Sometimes my post did not directly address the post I was replying to, and we end up talking past each other.

I do not imply that you make the same mistakes.

 

[Totenkindly]

I've no problem with being told that my idea is wrong, or flawed, or whatever - what I have the problem with is being told that I mean things that I don't mean, or intend things that I don't intend, when I went out of my way to say clearly exactly what I meant and intended.

Yes, definitely -- I do not know anything MORE frustrating (although if you give me time, I'll think of something) than being very precise in my wording in order to preemptively avoid such pitfalls and still having people read into what I said or misinterpret it... and especially if I clarify what I meant after their mistake, and they STILL persist in telling me that I meant something else...!

Usually this problem crops up much more when talking to non-NT people. That is not meant as a criticism; I think it simply means that words crossing the "type" divide are sometimes bent into a different shape by the process. It is cold reality that words and context can shift in meaning depending on one's foundational mental framework.

 

[nottaprettygal]

I've no problem with being told that my idea is wrong, or flawed, or whatever - what I have the problem with is being told that I mean things that I don't mean, or intend things that I don't intend, when I went out of my way to say clearly exactly what I meant and intended.

Do you see the distinction?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I understand the distinction that you're trying to make. However, like I said, how is someone supposed to know that your surface intent is your actual intent? I think that you and I have two different views on this. You think that one should probably assume that someone is being straight-forward, whereas I think that one should assume that something is hidden beneath the surface of a statement.

I can't always be sure, but that's when I rely on my intuition and knowledge to make an assumption. The wording in the OP was suspect, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Totenkindly]

I think that you and I have two different views on this. You think that one should probably assume that someone is being straight-forward, whereas I think that one should assume that something is hidden beneath the surface of a statement.

I know I am over-generalizing a little bit here, but this is the big difference between Ne and Ni:

Ne assumes that patterns exist and can be derived from the data (i.e., it implicitly trusts the observation)

Ni knows that data can mean different things and different patterns can be created from, all based on the intention of the one delivering the information (i.e., it implicitly distrusts the observation).

Of course, then you get into Se and Si, which both usually see the surface elements of the presentation and accept those at face value (or routinely do not accept them... but it's really based on the preferences of the receiver, rather than any real cue implanted within the information itself).

I know that I have been surprised (but am getting used to it) at how S people in general get hung up on the presentation and/or surface details, and how I need to be both explicit in what I mean as well as what my intentions are.

 

[substitute]

I know I am over-generalizing a little bit here, but this is the big difference between Ne and Ni:

Ne assumes that patterns exist and can be derived from the data (i.e., it implicitly trusts the observation)

It's not so much that I trust implicitly that people/things aren't misleading - it's more that I trust my own ability to pick up the external signs that they're misleading. To me, if something's deceptive, it's obvious from external clues, without having to go attributing spurious speculations that come purely from my own assumptions. To me, that just corrupts the flow of information with a sorta red herring, contaminates it and makes everything go awry.

And because I go out of my way to make sure I don't contaminate the external picture with red herrings, it annoys me when people assume that I do, and the way NPG puts it to me sorta suggests a quite paranoid, untrustful state of mind, quite insulting in a way, always assuming everyone's trying to con you or something?

Like I say, it's not that I assume everyone's honest all the time, but I take what they say at face value and take them as I find them, trusting in my own perception to be able to tell when they're hiding something and what it is that they're hiding, without having to assume everyone is all the time.

 

[nottaprettygal]

And because I go out of my way to make sure I don't contaminate the external picture with red herrings, it annoys me when people assume that I do, and the way NPG puts it to me sorta suggests a quite paranoid, untrustful state of mind, quite insulting in a way, always assuming everyone's trying to con you or something?

I wouldn't exactly call myself distrustful and paranoid, but to say that I'm suspicious of others is accurate. From my experiences with people, they rarely say exactly what they mean. There is always a hidden meaning under the surface, which isn't to say that it makes them disingenuous. Sometimes I think that even people who utter the statements are unaware of the meaning behind them.

If I were paranoid, I would assume that everyone is after me and trying to trick me. I don't assume that, but I do assume that most people are hiding aspects of their personality. If anything, those hidden attributes are why I find people interesting.

 

[The Ü™]

I don't think NFs are boring. Most of my closer friends are NFs. I'm rather attracted to their artsy nature, which is something all the ones I've come across seem to have in common.

They tend to be funky dressers, as well.

The Introverted NFs I've come across had a more Gothic style of dress, while the Extraverted NFs were more artsy and colorful.

I have a cousin who I typed as an ENFP, and she was a major in creative writing and stage. She also had a dressing style that combined Gypsy and Native American styles.

Another one of my Extraverted NF friends I took an art class with was a Christian -- her art was often characterized by religious symbolism -- but more in the vein of following what Christ taught as a metaphor rather than the literal interpretation characterized by TV evangelists.

Even if an NF has an Extraverted preference, it's very apparent that they are still extremely thoughtful and dreamy.

 

[proteanmix]

NT's usually go to great lengths to express themselves as clearly as possible, to dot every i and cross every t, and say exactly what they mean. But it seems to me that all the care and effort I put into choosing my words is pointless because the NF doesn't listen to them and instead focuses on trying to imagine WHY I'm saying them - rather than asking me why I'm saying them so that I can speak for myself.

And if that isn't invalidating, I don't know what is!!

Just because a person thinks they're expressing themselves clearly doesn't mean they are. Communication is a two way process and there's a lot of noise making precise communication, where one says exactly what they mean and another person interprets it exactly as it was meant to be received, a rare occurrence.

Do you think that NFs take any less pains to communicate what they mean? And the pushback you feel from NFs may be them trying to tell you that your communication isn't not a clear as you think it is. Or that they don't want to communicate the way you do. It's called feedback, are you open to it? I'm a firm believer in tailoring what you have to say to the audience. Maybe that's the effect of my personality type, but I must admit I have way less communication problems than others seem to.

Yes, definitely -- I do not know anything MORE frustrating (although if you give me time, I'll think of something) than being very precise in my wording in order to preemptively avoid such pitfalls and still having people read into what I said or misinterpret it... and especially if I clarify what I meant after their mistake, and they STILL persist in telling me that I meant something else...!

Usually this problem crops up much more when talking to non-NT people. That is not meant as a criticism; I think it simply means that words crossing the "type" divide are sometimes bent into a different shape by the process. It is cold reality that words and context can shift in meaning depending on one's foundational mental framework.

If you can only communicate with maybe 10% - 12% of the population with no problem, then I don't think it's the other 90% with issues. What kind of feedback to you solicit? How do you react when someone says you're not saying what you think you're saying? Do you try to understand why people don't understand you and readjust what you're saying to make it clearer? I find that NTs just put it one way and assume it's the most logical and concise way to put it. The best communication comes from having multiples ways of saying the same thing.

Once you put something out in the atmosphere, you have very little control over how it's interpreted and that's something that needs to be realized before the communication process begins. No amount of preventive maintenance will stop people from interpreting something as they will. I don't think it's cold reality, as in something that's unwanted, it's a necessary part of reality. Multiple interpretations, even bad ones, make your idea stronger. You could get an idea you've never even thought of out of some alternate interpretation.

I know that I have been surprised (but am getting used to it) at how S people in general get hung up on the presentation and/or surface details, and how I need to be both explicit in what I mean as well as what my intentions are.

You are exactly right. This is why presentation matters and when people denigrate the importance of this, it becomes counterproductive to your own goals. This seems so obvious to me that I don't even think about it that much.

 

[Varelse]

I don't think NFs are boring. Most of my closer friends are NFs. I'm rather attracted to their artsy nature, which is something all the ones I've come across seem to have in common.

They tend to be funky dressers, as well.

The Introverted NFs I've come across had a more Gothic style of dress, while the Extraverted NFs were more artsy and colorful.

My INFP friend wants to be a fashion designer-she's made some absolutely beautiful pieces of clothing.

Most of the NFs I've encountered aren't boring. Amusing, intelligent, sometimes tending too much towards trying to keep everything nice, but usually enjoyable to be around.

Especially when we're carrying on a conversation of implications and everyone else around has no idea of what we speak of.

 

[substitute]

Do you think that NFs take any less pains to communicate what they mean? And the pushback you feel from NFs may be them trying to tell you that your communication isn't not a clear as you think it is. Or that they don't want to communicate the way you do. It's called feedback, are you open to it?

Yes, exactly - that's my whole gripe - that I want the feedback and pushback, but they're not giving it!

I'm a firm believer in tailoring what you have to say to the audience. Maybe that's the effect of my personality type, but I must admit I have way less communication problems than others seem to.

Absolutely... I agree 100%. I've been getting better at doing it, but it doesn't come so naturally to everyone. But what does come naturally to me is, like you say, if they don't get it the first time, try putting it another way until they do get it. It can just get really infuriating for me when I feel like I've run out of ways to put it and they're still not getting it, and the reason being that they're throwing so much 'extra meaning' into what I say that I don't mean at all, and that has no basis at all in either the words I say or my delivery, but their own prejudices. The worst case for this is my best friend who is an ISTJ, who seems to live to misinterpret things people say, and not just me. So I wouldn't say this was an F thing, per se.

 

[faith]

I confess: I'm a snob.

Sometimes I intentionally hide my more interesting and intelligent thoughts in order to appear boring to someone because I don't find the person worth the effort. I just want that person to go away, and I figure the best way to do that is to bore them as much as they're boring me. I kind of like being able to control whether someone thinks me interesting or boring. I save my "real self" for people I value.

Of course, my "real self" might be just as boring to some people--but I'm speaking specifically to an INFJ's possible tendency to hide or misrepresent herself.

 

[Meursault]

I have to say that although I've been a staunch supporter of the NF's on here, I do tend to find that my main beef with NF's is... well, it's silly really, cos it's not anything you can really hate someone for, but it's that they're... just so... well... boring!

I mean I've known this INFJ woman for years and although she's intelligent and stuff, I have to force myself to read her e-mails just in case she asks me about them later, but they're so dull I almost lose the will to live while reading them. And she's tried to keep blogs for years but never gets many readers because they're ...just... so... damn... boring!

Occasionally when I needle her enough, she gets pissed off enough to yell at me or say something that shows she actually has a personality, but most of the time she keeps it all under wraps and refuses to ever say anything unless it's 'something nice', which basically just makes her come across quite 2D and a bit... well, like I say - boring.

She's never made me laugh, for example - I can't think of a single thing she's said in the 6 years I've known her that I still think back to now and chuckle, like I can for many other friends and even some members here. But I've often had her in stitches with things I've said.

About the only emotions she's ever provoked in me have been boredom and sometimes exasperation with her apparent refusal to just engage her intellect, like sometimes she can be so damn gullible, always choosing the wacko explanation for things even when there's a much more obvious mundane, rational one.

To be fair, it's not all NF's but mostly the INF's, cos every ENFP or ENFJ I've known has been able to make me laugh big belly laughs.

Maybe this should've been a rant or rant-let, but I figured I'd just stick it here, see what's made of it

substitute, is this your post that inspired this thread's creation? i don't see how it is the reader's fault to assume you did not mean what you said literally--that would seem to be your fault.

your post did not insult me--but it did make me roll my eyes though. the reason you find INFs boring probably has little to do with our F-ness, it probably has to do with our I-ness...you are an E after all! it's also why you probably find your real world ENFs fun.

T's are good in forums because you are laconic but frequent posters, F's are bad in forums because we loquacious but infrequent posters. The E-ness and I-ness doesn't really come into play so much online. i am an F and i would rather read T's online than F's too (we F's often need editors)--though in real life i find this is exactly the opposite--T's drone on and on talking AT people, while F's listen actively, every so often making wonderfully pithy and memorable comments ;-)

as for your boring infj, i don't know her and she certainly might be just the gigantic bore you say she is, but if she is not always boring with everyone--and you said that she does have a personality, she just doesn't share it with you--then i would say that most likely she just finds you to be as incredibly boring as you find her and probably doesn't even like you very much either, but as an F cannot bring herself to be mean to you. in fact she probably is unable to just ignore your emails to her becuase she has to be polite, unless you make her mad or betray her. if it was me, this would be the explanantion of what you describe.

in real life, i find that we INFs tend to be mirrors: what you see in us, tends to be more a reflection of yourself than it is an accurate depiction of who or how we are--this is especially true of infps, who I think are the most misunderstood and private of all types--all locked up inside ourselves.

as to whether i find myself boring, i second mr. jones's post above--how can anyone not find themselves boring? it's not like there is any mystery left.

 

[substitute]

substitute, was this not your post that inspired this thread's creation? i don't see how it is the reader's fault to assume you did not mean what you said literally--that would seem to be your fault.

Yeah but I was talking to INTP's, so the context was different... if I had known it was going to be taken without my consent and presented to NF's then I would have worded it differently so as to eliminate misunderstanding.

I did say if you look carefully at my words "it's not all NF's but mostly the INF's", that is, that of the boring people I know, those who are NF's are INF's, and NOT "most of the boring people I know are INF's". That's an erroneous, though admittedly understandable misunderstanding of what I said.

T's are good in forums because you are laconic but frequent posters, F's are bad in forums because we loquacious but infrequent posters. though in real life i find this the exact opposite, T's drone on and on talking at people, while F's tend to be active listeners who every so often making wonderfully pithy comments.

Another generalisation... I tend to be fairly quiet and, compared to my drama king attention whore ENFP brother, very withdrawn - so much so that for the longest time I mistook myself for an introvert, as did many people I know. I work with 2 ENTJ's who are extraverted thinkers and yet they also keep their thoughts to themselves and do a lot of listening. An ENFJ I know is very pushy and controlling, while another one I know is very gentle and one of the most awesome people I've ever met. I think qualities are being attributed to typing here that really aren't so much to do with typing as just individual people who can have flaws and good points irrespective of type.

as for your boring infj, i don't know her and she could certainly be the gigantic bore you say she is, but if she is not always boring with everyone, and you say that she does in fact have a personality, she just doesn't share it with you--i would say that most likely she just finds you to be as incredibly boring as you find her and probably doesn't even like you very much
but as an F cannot bring herself to be mean to you. in fact she probably is unable to just ignore you emails to her if she is an infj because of her Fe--she has to be polite, unless you make her mad or betray her.

There was a period where I never, ever initiated contact with her for about six months, and took days to reply to her e-mails, but she still bombarded me. I'm not gonna go into an exposition of my personal life and detailing all the interaction there's been between me and this woman, suffice it to say that I'm not oblivious or as insensitive as you're making me out to be, and I have many good reasons (noticed by other people and not just me) to be frustrated at the way she is towards me. Finding out about the INFJ to ENTP supervisor role has explained a lot though... But again, I'm not saying that all INFJ's are like that towards ENTP's... sheesh, I'm having to do so much qualifying here I might as well be on INTPc

But as Toonia's been pointing out (and I'm coming to see is probably true the more I think about it), this woman was probably a bad example to choose because I think she's actually just a bit nuts, and it's not really do to with her type...

Basically I was just frustrated at this woman being at her antics again lately, and figured I'd present my experiences on the INTP board to see what they made of it (as it seemed relevant to the topic at the time), see if any of them had similar experiences. I never meant it as a sweeping generalization or topic for wider debate. You even bolded the part where I said it was maybe more of a rant, that is, frustration directed at something specific, and not a general opinion.

I didn't anywhere in my post claim what I said to be objectively or generally true. It was a throwaway comment due to frustration that's been picked up and turned into something else, somewhere else, and given more significance than I originally meant by it. Which, okay, is at least partially my own fault for not thinking before I posted or wording it carefully enough, but I see that as no justification for all the other 'conclusions' people seem to have drawn about my whole personality and attitudes from just that comment.

Elsewhere on the INTPc board, I've gone to great lengths to defend NF's and non-NT's generally, and the valuable contributions they make to my life and can make to others'.

So be careful with the quick assumptions, ok?

 

[Meursault]

Yeah but I was talking to INTP's, so the context was different... if I had known it was going to be taken without my consent and presented to NF's then I would have worded it differently so as to eliminate misunderstanding.

the words in the post are your own. i did not put words in your mouth, i only asked if the post that i quoted was the one that led to this thread. if you misspoke, and meant something other than you said, why not simply say so? an intp started this thread, did he not misunderstand you too?

you can't have it both ways. NTs claim that the reason that NFs screw up INTPc is that we read more into your posts than is there, but when we respond to the literal meaning of a post, we are criticised for not understanding the nuance. i'm sorry, but it just sounds like bullshit to me.

in many ways this rhetorical strategy is like that often used by men against women--refusing to take responsibility for what was actually said or done, and turning the entire discussion around by making it a question of the other person's understanding and emotional and/or mental stability.

I did say if you look carefully at my words "it's not all NF's but mostly the INF's", that is, that of the boring people I know, those who are NF's are INF's, and NOT "most of the boring people I know are INF's". That's an erroneous, though admittedly understandable misunderstanding of what I said.

yes, especially after having opened with:

"my main beef with NF's is... well, it's silly really, cos it's not anything you can really hate someone for, but it's that they're... just so... well... boring!"

the fact that NFs may not be the sole source of boredom for you is completely beside point, because we are talking about NFs being boring.

Another generalisation... I tend to be fairly quiet and, compared to my drama king attention whore ENFP brother, very withdrawn - so much so that for the longest time I mistook myself for an introvert, as did many people I know. I work with 2 ENTJ's who are extraverted thinkers and yet they also keep their thoughts to themselves and do a lot of listening. An ENFJ I know is very pushy and controlling, while another one I know is very gentle and one of the most awesome people I've ever met. I think qualities are being attributed to typing here that really aren't so much to do with typing as just individual people who can have flaws and good points irrespective of type.

sorry, i don't take your point here. i made no bones about speaking generally--generalizations and anecdotes are both flawed-- but it is sort of hard to avoid using either over the course of a conversation.

anyway, it doesn't seem very controversial to me to say that the NT communication style works particularly well online and that the NF one does not, in general (i think that INTPc vs INFPgc proves this point, but that is just my opinion).

nor do i think it particularly controversial to throw in anecdote of my own that the T's i have known personally do not talk TO people, they talk AT people. why is my using my personal experience less valid than your doing so?

There was a period where I never, ever initiated contact with her for about six months, and took days to reply to her e-mails, but she still bombarded me. I'm not gonna go into an exposition of my personal life and detailing all the interaction there's been between me and this woman, suffice it to say that I'm not oblivious or as insensitive as you're making me out to be, and I have many good reasons (noticed by other people and not just me) to be frustrated at the way she is towards me. Finding out about the INFJ to ENTP supervisor role has explained a lot though... But again, I'm not saying that all INFJ's are like that towards ENTP's... sheesh, I'm having to do so much qualifying here I might as well be on INTPc

i am not making you out to be anything, i simply offered another interpretation of the situation. what you do with it is up to you--as i said, i have never met the person (or you for that matter). since you seem to dislike her a lot and she seems to like you a lot, why do you not simply ask her to stop emailing you? or just stop emailing her--or just block sender her and you will never even know if she ever contacts you again.

But as Toonia's been pointing out (and I'm coming to see is probably true the more I think about it), this woman was probably a bad example to choose because I think she's actually just a bit nuts, and it's not really do to with her type...

well, this is sad, i feel badly for her now--when i first posted (the only time I ever did actually) at INTPc, i was in a similar situation, except that i was the girl--i wish he had simply block-sendered me, but even after I asked him not to contact me again he continued...if you really do not like her, you should cut all ties with her, you are probably just making her crazy. she will not know how to interpret your continuined responses.

Basically I was just frustrated at this woman being at her antics again lately, and figured I'd present my experiences on the INTP board to see what they made of it (as it seemed relevant to the topic at the time), see if any of them had similar experiences. I never meant it as a sweeping generalization or topic for wider debate. You even bolded the part where I said it was maybe more of a rant, that is, frustration directed at something specific, and not a general opinion.

so a rant cannot be toward all NFs? even if the opening line says it is? look, your post didn't bother me at all, and i read it before this thread even existed. i chose to call you out, not because of your opinion of NFs or INFs, but on what i saw as your being weasel-ly in this thread regarding what you actually said originally.

I didn't anywhere in my post claim what I said to be objectively or generally true. It was a throwaway comment due to frustration that's been picked up and turned into something else, somewhere else, and given more significance than I originally meant by it. Which, okay, is at least partially my own fault for not thinking before I posted or wording it carefully enough, but I see that as no justification for all the other 'conclusions' people seem to have drawn about my whole personality and attitudes from just that comment.

i haven't drawn any conclusions about you as a human being except that you might be selfish based on your maintaining a relationship, however minimally, with a person who you seem to despise. but that was not until i read this post, in my first post i was just making conversation

Elsewhere on the INTPc board, I've gone to great lengths to defend NF's and non-NT's generally, and the valuable contributions they make to my life and can make to others'.

So be careful with the quick assumptions, ok?

again, i did not assume anything, i just quoted you and asked for an explanation.

 

[substitute]

i am starting to think that being NT simply means never admitting one's mistakes or saying one is sorry....

What, so I didn't already admit that I worded it badly and that other stuff? Here we go again then, just so you can't say you didn't see it: SORRY! okay?

I still hold though, that I've known a great many NF's who are very boring, and it has nothing to do with conflict avoidance, and much more to do with just avoidance of saying anything interesting at all just in case it might be disagreed with, or in case the other person might feel imposed on, or dumped on, or whatever. That's my observation, my experience, and whether or not that's generally true of all, it's still what I've seen so I'm not gonna take that back.

i have drawn no conclusions about you as a human being except that you might be selfish based on your maintaining a relationship, however minimally, with a person who you seem to despise. but that was not until i read this post, in my first post i was just making conversation

Not that it's any of your business, but just to clarify, I never said I dispised her and in fact did clearly say that I thought she was intelligent and capable of being interesting. Several years ago I did cut her off, but at the time, I had to work with her, so it wasn't that easy.

But even 2 years after I quit that workplace and had finally shaken her off, she suddenly appears at my door one day saying she's done a lot of thinking, saying she admits she was infatuated with me and that she lived in a fantasy world and just saw what she wanted to see in me, and said she'd been to counselling and was over it now and wanted to make it up to me and for us to be friends.

She's become part of my social circle now and it's no so easy to just cut her off.

Like I say, she's underneath it all a very good and nice woman, and if she could just stop being such a psycho we could be good friends, and yes, I also feel bad for her and sympathise with her obvious psychological problems and stuff, which is why I don't want to make her hurt even more by telling her again to fuck off out of my life. If I told her that, all our other friends would have to choose between her and me (and they've told me that they'd choose me hands down and encouraged me to cut her off), so that'd leave her with no friends, which would hardly help her low self esteem issues, would it?

Not only that, but FFS she's married with 3 kids, and my allowing her to tag along with us seems to be the only thing that's keeping her stable, and if I kick off at her then it'll be her husband (a great guy) and kids who get the worst of it when she gets all depressed and won't do anything.

So as you see, rather short-sighted to label compassion and patience and waiting for opportune moments and bearing with someone and helping (at my own expense) her family to get her to counselling again, as selfishness. Sad fact is, she's a bunny boiler.

I like the way Toonia puts things better than you I mean, she challenges me and points out my faults, but she doesn't try to lay all the faults for everything at my damn door!