Movie Themes and Plot Analysis (in depth)

[ChocolateMoose123]

This thread is exclusively to ask in depth questions and get insight and analysis from others of plot points and themes of your favorite movies in greater detail.

This is a meta-analysis thread people

This isn't about one movie in particular!!

To keep it easy to follow for other users to pick out specific content they wish to comment upon:

A couple requested rules for clarity:


- Please bold the question you pose and include the title of the movie in it as well. (My first post will provide example)

This will make it easier to read through when many other movies are being discussed simultaneously.

- Please copy the bolded question and title of movie in any responses relating to the original question.

This will assist in readers who want to follow analysis of one movie and ignore others.

I think I covered basics, any further suggestions to make the thread work better, please let me know and I will modify this OP to include them!

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

What is the meaning of the final monologue in No Country for Old Men?

(This is not my analysis but I wanted to discuss it as it's fascinating.
To give credit: Tamara Troup wrote it.)

Sheriff Bell's final monologue is not a lament about loss or overt failure, it is the lament of an old man whose subconsciousness will always remind him that he made safe decisions; because of these decisions, he will not find his father's approval nor will he be a light in the wilderness like his father.

In the opening monologue of the movie, Sheriff Bell, describes the utter absurdity of policing a world gone mad.

...Crime you see now, it's hard to even take it's measure...it's not that I'm afraid of it, I always knew you had to be willing to die to even do this job...but I don't want to push my chips forward and go out & meet something I don't even understand. Man have to put his soul at hazard, it means he'd have to say 'Ok, I'll be part of this world.'

Sheriff Bell could not comprehend a world inhabited by people like Anton Chigurh let alone push his chips forward and agree to be part of his world. He was a wise and experienced Sheriff, but he chose to ignore opportunities to expand his knowledge and to take measures to find Chigurh. On two separate occasions, Bell ignored the DEA's offer to discuss or examine evidence. His wisdom and protracted consideration of events is contrasted with the enthusiasm and ideology of his Deputy Wendell. Bell could have brought in Chigurh, let us have no doubt about that, he chose to casually pursue Chigurh and trust that he would die of natural causes (as the Mexicans did in the hotel in Del Rio). Bell had no desire to be part of Chigurh's world.

Sheriff Bell's dream about meeting his father in town to get the money his father had, that he lost, is not a dream about the loss of his father, but rather a dream about the loss of his father's approval. An approval he had at one time when, as he said "Me and him was sheriffs at the same time; him up in Plano and me out here. I think he's pretty proud of that. I know I was."

In the second dream, Bell and his father ride together in a time and a setting idealized as a period of intrinsic understanding of "right" and "wrong." This is a dream about Bell's father serving as a "light" of justice and peacekeeping in the darkness of the wilderness. His father--the younger man--rode past, a man with a purpose and a light to drive him. His father, the young, purposeful lawman, had no time for an old man's hesitation in a place which was no country for old men.

Thoughts?

 

[1487610420]

I can't even

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I can't even

My thinking is it would be nice to have one thread to discuss a detail of a movie here and there. Instead of starting distinct threads that may only garner one or two replies each for a given observation.

May get someone thinking about how they viewed a theme one way as opposed to another. Or someone can get an answer to a tie-in or confusing ending. Etc.

 

[Carpe Vinum]

What is the meaning of the final monologue in No Country for Old Men?

Interesting analysis. I didn't take it to mean a lament about loss or failure, but I also didn't see it as a lament for making safe decisions either. Bell was actually pretty courageous at the end, walking into the motel room with Chigurh presumably on the other side. In the end, Bell did push his chips forward. He just arrived too late.

I see Bell's lament as more of a spiritual lament. Bell believed in a world where good is rewarded ("I thought God would come into my life somehow") and evil is punished, only that's not reality. The reality is that God/life/universe doesn't offer such assurances. This is what he "woke up" to. We travel throuigh the darkness and the cold, striving to do right and spread a little light along the way, and sometimes there isn't a bonfire waiting for us at the end.

It doesn't make the fight any less worth it, but that knowledge sure does take its toll.

 

[Yuurei]

My thinking is it would be nice to have one thread to discuss a detail of a movie here and there. Instead of starting distinct threads that may only garner one or two replies each for a given observation.

May get someone thinking about how they viewed a theme one way as opposed to another. Or someone can get an answer to a tie-in or confusing ending. Etc.

This sounds like a lot if fun but I'm not a big movie buff. Most of my answers would be " never seen it."

Hell, I just saw Diehard Saturday night.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

This sounds like a lot if fun but I'm not a big movie buff. Most of my answers would be " never seen it."

Hell, I just saw Diehard Saturday night.

Confession: I have never seen Diehard movies! Not straight through, anyway. I'm not a big movie person either but I tried to make the thread accessible to everyone.

It's why I asked to bold the title of the movie in mention. If the thread does work, you can scan through and read from movies you (or other readers) have seen and maybe there will be an "Oh crap. Never thought of it like that." moment or someone 6 months from now will see it and add, etc.

 

[ceecee]

I see Bell's lament as more of a spiritual lament. Bell believed in a world where good is rewarded ("I thought God would come into my life somehow") and evil is punished, only that's not reality. The reality is that God/life/universe doesn't offer such assurances. This is what he "woke up" to. We travel throuigh the darkness and the cold, striving to do right and spread a little light along the way, and sometimes there isn't a bonfire waiting for us at the end.

It doesn't make the fight any less worth it, but that knowledge sure does take its toll.

That's how I took it too. From the first scene of the movie..

It's not that I'm afraid of it. I always knew you had to be willing to die to even do this job. But, I don't want to push my chips forward and go out and meet something I don't understand. A man would have to put his soul at hazard. He'd have to say, "O.K., I'll be part of this world."

I always liked that they used Tommy Lee Jones rather sparingly in this film. The impact was greater.

 

[Carpe Vinum]

No Country for Old Men is actually one of my favorite books/films to teach. Not that that gives me deeper insight. It's just a great book. So much rich symbolism and room for debate. I know that the ending with Moss bothers a lot of people, and it should because it's the classic warning against the dangers of hubris (pride). McCarthy is truly awesome.

Here's a point to ponder from the same film (I like baiting my students with this one): is Chigurh supposed to be Death? Besides the obvious black outfits and captive bolt pistol that could be standing in for a scythe, he's constantly making reference to whether anyone can "see" him or not.

When the one man asks, "Are you going to kill me," he responds, "That depends, do you see me?"

At the end, he tells the boys, "You didn't see me."

And of course there's Carson Wells (to Moss): "You've seen him, and you're not dead!?"

Thoughts?

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

No Country for Old Men is actually one of my favorite books/films to teach. Not that that gives me deeper insight. It's just a great book. So much rich symbolism and room for debate. I know that the ending with Moss bothers a lot of people, and it should because it's the classic warning against the dangers of hubris (pride). McCarthy is truly awesome.

Here's a point to ponder from the same film (I like baiting my students with this one): is Chigurh supposed to be Death? Besides the obvious black outfits and captive bolt pistol that could be standing in for a scythe, he's constantly making reference to whether anyone can "see" him or not.

When the one man asks, "Are you going to kill me," he responds, "That depends, do you see me?"

At the end, he tells the boys, "You didn't see me."

And of course there's Carson Wells (to Moss): "You've seen him, and you're not dead!?"

Thoughts?

I took his symbolism to be more chance/risk. Although, death is a fate everyone shares and more risk brings us closer to Death. So they go hand in hand. To me, I saw him as representative of the consequence of decision ("can't stop what is on the way"). As he seems to hold no ownership of choice. When speaking to Moss he puts the consequence of saving Carla "you cannot save yourself." on Moss. With Carla in the bedroom when she says it's you, not the coin. He says, I got here the same way the coin did. (following choices).

Even at the end of the film Ellis says to Bell: "Whatcha got ain't nothin new. This country's hard on people, you can't stop what's coming, it ain't all waiting on you. That's vanity."

Maybe you have something with seven deadly sins (?) Since you mentioned Pride. That's interesting.

 

[Radio Bob]

Well, I guess I know what movie I'll be watching next. Just your comment was an intrique.

What is the meaning of the final monologue in No Country for Old Men?

(This is not my analysis but I wanted to discuss it as it's fascinating.
To give credit: Tamara Troup wrote it.)

Sheriff Bell's final monologue is not a lament about loss or overt failure, it is the lament of an old man whose subconsciousness will always remind him that he made safe decisions; because of these decisions, he will not find his father's approval nor will he be a light in the wilderness like his father.

In the opening monologue of the movie, Sheriff Bell, describes the utter absurdity of policing a world gone mad.

...Crime you see now, it's hard to even take it's measure...it's not that I'm afraid of it, I always knew you had to be willing to die to even do this job...but I don't want to push my chips forward and go out & meet something I don't even understand. Man have to put his soul at hazard, it means he'd have to say 'Ok, I'll be part of this world.'

Sheriff Bell could not comprehend a world inhabited by people like Anton Chigurh let alone push his chips forward and agree to be part of his world. He was a wise and experienced Sheriff, but he chose to ignore opportunities to expand his knowledge and to take measures to find Chigurh. On two separate occasions, Bell ignored the DEA's offer to discuss or examine evidence. His wisdom and protracted consideration of events is contrasted with the enthusiasm and ideology of his Deputy Wendell. Bell could have brought in Chigurh, let us have no doubt about that, he chose to casually pursue Chigurh and trust that he would die of natural causes (as the Mexicans did in the hotel in Del Rio). Bell had no desire to be part of Chigurh's world.

Sheriff Bell's dream about meeting his father in town to get the money his father had, that he lost, is not a dream about the loss of his father, but rather a dream about the loss of his father's approval. An approval he had at one time when, as he said "Me and him was sheriffs at the same time; him up in Plano and me out here. I think he's pretty proud of that. I know I was."

In the second dream, Bell and his father ride together in a time and a setting idealized as a period of intrinsic understanding of "right" and "wrong." This is a dream about Bell's father serving as a "light" of justice and peacekeeping in the darkness of the wilderness. His father--the younger man--rode past, a man with a purpose and a light to drive him. His father, the young, purposeful lawman, had no time for an old man's hesitation in a place which was no country for old men.

Thoughts?

 

[Totenkindly]

Confession: I have never seen Diehard movies! Not straight through, anyway. I'm not a big movie person either but I tried to make the thread accessible to everyone.

I've seen the first two, avoided what I could of the last few.

This is a thread of interest in me, but it's been some years since I've seen NCfOM and I don't remember enough to comment intelligently. (Plus I'll probably pick up more on the second pass than I did on the first -- it was a movie that broke my expectations and I was scrambling to keep up.) But I do like how the thread can run the gamut of movies, as my own tastes range from lightweight (like Underworld) to much more serious pics.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Hans.

Bubby

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I feel like Ellis needs his own movie. I always feel really bad about Takagi and Ellis. Ellis' death leaves a real void.

 

[Jaguar]

Hans.

Bubby

I'm your white knight.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I'm your white knight.

It's what I can give ya

 

[Totenkindly]

I feel like Ellis needs his own movie. I always feel really bad about Takagi and Ellis. Ellis' death leaves a real void.

Maybe there could be some kind of existential surreal side-quell, called "Takagi and Ellis Are Dead."
(This sounds like a tangent but isn't -- it could feature coin tossing, which was also featured in NCfOM.)

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I also always feel really bad for the sitting duck guy that gets shot in the head by the T-1000 in Diehard 2

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I've seen the first two, avoided what I could of the last few.

This is a thread of interest in me, but it's been some years since I've seen NCfOM and I don't remember enough to comment intelligently. (Plus I'll probably pick up more on the second pass than I did on the first -- it was a movie that broke my expectations and I was scrambling to keep up.) But I do like how the thread can run the gamut of movies, as my own tastes range from lightweight (like Underworld) to much more serious pics.

I get you. I've seen it many times and always take more from it. Same with Mulholland Drive and Pan's Labyrinth. They are so rich in layers. I had to watch Memento about three times before I had the "OOOOHH...I see now moment."

 

[Carpe Vinum]

I took his symbolism to be more chance/risk. Although, death is a fate everyone shares and more risk brings us closer to Death. So they go hand in hand.

Indeed. Very much so.

Even at the end of the film Ellis says to Bell: "Whatcha got ain't nothin new. This country's hard on people, you can't stop what's coming, it ain't all waiting on you. That's vanity."

Maybe you have something with seven deadly sins (?) Since you mentioned Pride. That's interesting.

Yeah, Greed is there as well. I once read that the scene where Moss finds the money under the tree was a nod to "The Pardoner's Tale," where the thieves find the gold and the greed that leads to their demise.

But the big one is Pride. Moss thought he could handle himself. lots of hubris there.

How fitting and ironic that the gang killed him in the end instead of Chigurh. Chigurh was the only one that he seemed to think would be a challenge for him.

Bell was somewhat prideful, too. Just in a different way. Moss was proud of his survival skills, whereas Bell had more of a moral pride. I think that's part of what spurned Ellis to tell him "It ain't all waitin on you. That's vanity." You can make all the right choices and the world can still go to shit. What gives us the right to think otherwise?