Judgers Do It Better

[Martoon]

Ezra, unfortunately Ps outnumber Js on the forum. Your theory was dead in the water.

The Js are all off getting things done.

 

[htb]

Because often, it is Perceivers, especially NPs, who possess the initial spark, the idea, that leads to the plan that can be implemented.

And whom* Keirsey aptly named "the Architect" and "the Inventor." I agree. Individuals of both temperaments are concept and system generators without equal. They're also excellent for midpoint critiques: visiting a project and immediately perceiving what does and does not conform to the principle or style.

* The thinking pair of the four.

 

[heart]

Effort people do a lot of busy work. This much is true.

I define an "effort person" as one who get all hung up on effort and not results. They are more into the system of doing things and all the proper steps and giving the proper amount of sweat and all that. The ritual matters more than the end result and they always have to be doing something and then they cannot shut up about how much they get done to everyone else. their sole purpose in life is to be busy with busy work.

I am not saying all J types are effort people though.

It doesn't matter how much gets done, but that the things that are important get done and done well.

 

[GZA]

I havn't read through the thread yet, so sorry if this has been said...


The problem with your experiment, Ezra, is that you are not a perciever, and thus it is fundamentally flawed. By taking a perceiver approach to your day, as a judger, you are acting unnaturally, and thus the results will not proporly demonstrate the differences. If I was to approach my day as a judger, it would be a complete disaster, because thats not how I naturally act. To act outside of your natural ways is difficult and not as efficient as someone who naturally acts in the way you are trying to act.

Its kind of funny, today I was thinking about this exact thing; what happens when people decide to take a route when that isn't how they naturally want to move for the sake of attempted efficiency. I was watching some guy run around the track at school during the lunch hour. He was not part of any class or anything, he appeared to just be running for the hell of it. He was following the track, and as he ran around the bend he ended up cutting across the feild somewhat to do less work to complete the track. I was thinking that this is an example of someone setting up a structure that is incongruent with thier nature and function, and it malfunctioned. Had he run down an undetermined path for an undetermined set of time, he would have no shortcuts to take and would only be responsible to run as long as it worked for him. This can be applied as a general metaphor, although there are exceptions as there are with any metaphor. Those who enjoy structure and goal setting may look at the track and say "I'm going to run around that whole thing" and do it (aka judging), while someone who does not set concrete goals and instead "goes with the flow" for however long it is still effective (percieving) will attempt the track and end up cutting a corner because the structure/goal does not reflect how they wish to run.

I'm sorry for writing such a long post, it probably wasn't necessary to demonstrate my point, but I just happened to have been thinking about this today...

And for all I know this is really more about my need for congruency (reffered to theoretically as Fi) and not so much P and J. But, as others have said, these terms can be limiting.

 

[Badlands]

On a sidenote, my dad was working as a dispatcher for a shipping company 25 years ago. He actually noted how his Percieving gave him a great advantage over his mostly J coworkers, because they would plan so far ahead and then something would go wrong and everything would be chaotic; my dad had no problem only planning as far as he had to, and many of the cancelled orders never affected his plans.

They're two parts of the same whole. Sometimes keeping things open is more efficient, other times making a closed decision is.

 

[Ezra]

Very detailed oriented J person would be in trouble with such big picture multitasking things.

Not an ENTJ. They're renowned for their being able to effectively manage and coordinate multiple elements in a given organisation.

I do agree that working within a structure gets structured jobs done faster. Working within a structure also allows structured people to work faster. This is not the same as saying that structure is the best for everything.

That's a very good point.

Perceivers are strong on one thing which Judgers are weak at: Initiation.

I did not know that. This is very surprising to me, actually. New perspective. Why is this do you think?

This 'lazy', 'hardworking' stuff has a lot more to do with background, experience, and parenting.

True, but I made no assertion about the laziness of Perceivers or Judgers, nor how hardworking either of them are.

could we stop posting these threads that declare one preference better than the other

I didn't say Judgers are better than Perceivers; I was demonstrating how Judgers are better in a particular area than Perceivers, which is fact; Js and Ps have their pros and cons.

each type can arrive at the same decision or result, and efficiently

This isn't true. The point of there being different types is because each type will come to conclusions based on what they think.

The big flaw in your experiment, Ezra, is that you haven't tried being a P. You've just tried being a J without a plan. There's more to being a perceiver than trying to "go with the flow" and "think on your feet".

Can you please explain what else there is to being a Perceiver?

I'm confused. What's the point of "getting things done"?

Achievement; accomplishment. I guess it stems from an internal (and subjective) desire to succeed in life, because success makes people enjoy their lives more.

Ezra, unfortunately Ps outnumber Js on the forum. Your theory was dead in the water.

If you were a Perceiver, I'd call this a majority belief fallacy (x is wrong because most people think x is wrong) . Since you're a Judger, thank you for sympathising. Nonetheless, it's good that there are people to debate my ideas with. That's what makes this forum interesting. It would be a bit boring, and I probably wouldn't reply to anyone, if everyone said "yeah, Ezra, this is great, you're totally right about all of this". I'd merely skim through and browse another thread. That's what makes democracy so good; people argue about what is the right way. So long as I win out, I'm happy .

 

[bluebell]

I have done multitasking and succeeded to reach most of the goals in life that I wanted to reach. Very detailed oriented J person would be in trouble with such big picture multitasking things. (I think.) It's just up to your own motivation.

Structure is not always the thing. Sometimes things get better done with....YES the intuition and improvising! And when a change of plans is needed P's move forward faster.

I've been thinking about this. It's the being focussed on the outcome, rather than the process to get there. It's continually adapting to circumstances as they change, and keeping the big picture in mind.

There is structure to how perceivers operate. You can call it being "response-ready." Perhaps just a high-level plan. The details are not "bound" till the time of action, because they cannot be predicted, and there are far too many contingencies to consider.

Yes, exactly. Having to do project plans or plan what and when I'll spend my budget on at work drives me nuts. Things change so rapidly all the time with unexpected consequences. Budgeting and planning seems like such a waste of time. All you really need is a broad, overarching goal with perhaps one or two deadlines to aim for. In my experience, it's a lot more efficient to work that way.

edit: and yes, usehername, you're absolutely right. My P is definitely confirmed, and i wilted faster than a cut daisy with no water in hot sun in my last workplace, with an extremely J boss of an ESTJ. EVERYTHING had to be planned. you couldn't even go from one to ten, you had to go from one, two, three.....*faints*

Heh. There's someone outside my team who's pushing for our team to use Microsoft Project for all our projects, so that we can manage our projects to the exact day (this is for projects that run for up to 2 or 3 years). Uh huh. It's highly unlikely this will happen, but if it did, I'll be looking for a transfer asap.

Can you please explain what else there is to being a Perceiver?

Hard to articulate, but it's also seeing all the possibilities and seeing why it's not efficient/sensible to commit to any particular course of action too quickly. There's more but I can't find the words.

 

["?"]

The topic reminds me of something that I read on the Socionics website years ago. First my disclaimer, I am not a fan of dichotomies as INTJMom will confirm, but I am a bigger antagonist of Socionics. Nevertheless, this is a good article that gives a functional understanding in comparing J/P by saying:

Judging types usually plan their actions beforehand and try to follow this plan. They tend to choose the shortest distance to the target moving along in a direct line. In a stable atmosphere this behaviour is optimal because it allows Judging types to calculate the most optimal life. However, a changing situation causes Judging types trouble with fulfilling their plans. These changes put more obstacles in the way, which as a result cause Judging types to put the execution of their plans on hold for an indefinite period of time until either the obstacle moves away by itself or another decision alters their plans prompting them to change direction.

It may seem that Perceiving types have no definite aims or goals to achieve in comparison with Judging types. This is because irrational behaviour is like a freehand line. Perceiving types flow with changes. It seems as if they feel oncoming change long before Judging types can even see it. As a result they avoid obstacles in their way with virtuosity.

The interesting thing in my opinion is that introverted types dominated by an introverted judging function will have an arduous time adapting because they do use an judging function to internalize, disallowing their auxiliary function from providing sufficient and viable information. So when it

 

[Ezra]

Hard to articulate, but it's also seeing all the possibilities and seeing why it's not efficient/sensible to commit to any particular course of action too quickly.

Are you sure about that?

I am go, go, go. And that creates a lot of successes. I just dodge my way through the sparks and problems. I’m very task oriented. I like to do something, get it done, and move to the next thing. I love circumstances where it’s a challenge. I’m a doer. What’s the mission and how are we getting there? Let’s work together. Let’s go. Throw any obstacle, I’ll find a way.

-From the ESTP profile

Listening is a problem for me because I have probably already thought out things thoroughly, done my homework, and reached an answer before I even get to the stage of presenting it to other people.

-From the ENTJ profile

 

[Xander]

This "do it better" idea is probably a self fulfilling prophecy in part. If you did not believe that your type was the best then would it really be your true "preference"?

Besides of course ENTJs are the best. INTJs are always right and INTPs are the most logical... it's obvious

 

[Ezra]

Fair point.

 

[FDG]

I disagree completely with Ezra's first post. A J type will be able to accomplish the most in regard to its 1st function. Clearly if it's work we're talking about, then generally Te types will have an edge. Would you say an ENTJ is able to be more sociable than an ESFP? If we consider sociability and forming connections with people an ESFP's job, the his-her productivity will be generally much higher than the one of an ENTJ.

 

[Xander]

I disagree completely with Ezra's first post. A J type will be able to accomplish the most in regard to its 1st function. Clearly if it's work we're talking about, then generally Te types will have an edge. Would you say an ENTJ is able to be more sociable than an ESFP? If we consider sociability and forming connections with people an ESFP's job, the his-her productivity will be generally much higher than the one of an ENTJ.

What about an ENFJ though?

(You may think I'm just playing devil's advocate but I couldn't possibly comment )

 

[FDG]

What about an ENFJ though?

(You may think I'm just playing devil's advocate but I couldn't possibly comment )

IMHO ENFJs have a very different form of sociability than ESFPs. ENFJs tend to be slightly more elitistic in choosing their friendship and more educationally orientated whereas ESFPs are more democratic. Which gives to the two types a completely different domain of operation. Not to mention that in order to deal with people it's often more convenient to be flexible rather than very scheduled.

 

[CzeCze]

You know I agree with Ezra about J's getting more done and being more productive -- in certain environments. The ENTJ is nicknamed "The Executive" for a reason, this type excels in trad corporate environments -- ENTJs were practically custom made for such a workplace. It's a regimented environment with extremely clear hierarchies and divisions of power and success is very easily and closely measured. ENTJs kick ass in corporate environments...and probably in the miltary as well...and I've said it once and I'll say it again, y'all can be terrifying.

And I do agree that structure and goals and a degree of familiarity and stability give people the tools and space to grow and reach. Familiarity and structure are basic psychological precepts for nurturing healthy egos and confidence levels I think -- in animals as well as people.

Were you suggesting expresing as a J is the most productive you can aspire to? In terms of creating structure, following through with plans, creating timelines and goals? Because that's already commonly accepted in society. BTW, I bought 'Total Workday Control' for my last job! Hahahahaha, I bought a book to learn how to master Outlook???? Hhahaha, omg, I never even opened the book. Holy crap, I hated that job.

And having said all that above -- different skills sets fit different roles and needs.

When faced with chaos, unpredictability, or just plain rebelliousness, sometimes a need for control in a 'J' sense becomes a hindrance and counterproductive. Especially when it comes to dealing with people. That's why like Xander mentioned, ENTJ's excel and can be very productive in very structured environments. But most of the world is not structured. Or else order looks chaotic, chaos theory, finding symmetry in seeming disorder in nature, etc. etc. etc. Alright I'm fading, I'm going to bed but that's my last word!

J's most productive? Sometimes. Some situations favor them. But some tasks really favor 'P'.

I actually think most entrepeneurs at least in high-tech are P's (NP specifically), who really build the bones and blaze the way for great new ideas or business plan, and then put a J in charge of running the day to day operations. Entrepeneurs have to be very comfortable and agile and one step ahead of the curve in the opposite of structured and predictable environments and withstand a lot of ups and downs before success is reached. Aside from tenacity, you need patience...and um...I don't think patience is a strong J trait. I'm not saying that's a bad thing in itself but I think you'd probably die of a heart attack from impatience and uncertainty and a desire to control all factors during certain endeavors. P would excel and be much more productive in such a scenario.

 

[Ezra]

IMHO ENFJs have a very different form of sociability than ESFPs. ENFJs tend to be slightly more elitistic in choosing their friendship and more educationally orientated whereas ESFPs are more democratic. Which gives to the two types a completely different domain of operation. Not to mention that in order to deal with people it's often more convenient to be flexible rather than very scheduled.

Bitch please! Don't bring socionics into this.

 

[Ezra]

Were you suggesting expresing as a J is the most productive you can aspire to? In terms of creating structure, following through with plans, creating timelines and goals?

I don't quite understand the question.