Inter-Type Blur 4/5/6

[Glycerine]

OK that sounds a lot more like 6.

 

[Alternatum]

What does "in with a shot" mean?

It just means in with a chance, or more specifically here that I would entertain it as a possibility for me.

The 6w5 is the "more independent" side of the type 6. The quote provided in the OP sounds vaguely fourish (problem with identity) and more five-ish at the end (minimizing involvement). But from there on out, your comments come across strongly as type 6, and with the independent/withdrawing aspect you've mentioned along the way, definitely 6w5.

If I may, it doesn't sound like you have a problem with identity, but rather an internal conflict between the underlying motives of your primary and wing types.

I have a blurred identity and poor self-image, but I don't see these as incompatible with 6 anyway. The independence streak you mentioned is partly manifest by wanting to define myself on my own terms, and I don't feel very engaged with my external self, like it doesn't represent me well enough and is too 'conditioned'. I would say I ultimately seek an identity with which to engage/relate with others that internally resonates and feels truly myself. This is the part of me that is four-ish, but I don't feel it's negative enough to be four.

 

[VagrantFarce]

OK, let's not get caught up in insignificant details. Keep it simple.

• Do you ever feel removed or detached from others, or perhaps get "tired out" by other people easily, and want to retreat into your own head or private space as a result?
• Do you ever feel as if something fundamental and unspecified about who you is missing, and that you can't help but express your own tragic existence as a result?
• Do you ever find yourself worrying over whether other people are trustworthy or dependable, and that their lack of dependability will somehow affect you negatively?

There's a gun to your head - which one?

 

[Mal12345]

It just means in with a chance, or more specifically here that I would entertain it as a possibility for me.



I have a blurred identity and poor self-image, but I don't see these as incompatible with 6 anyway. The independence streak you mentioned is partly manifest by wanting to define myself on my own terms, and I don't feel very engaged with my external self, like it doesn't represent me well enough and is too 'conditioned'. I would say I ultimately seek an identity with which to engage/relate with others that internally resonates and feels truly myself. This is the part of me that is four-ish, but I don't feel it's negative enough to be four.

The key to understanding Fours is the need for authenticity or living authentically, which is what you mean by "feels truly myself." The need to engage/relate with others is a key motivating factor for the Six. My reading indicates that the Six attempts to put on a shallow social facade, but fears that this facade will readily be seen through and revealed for what it is.

This has to tie into identity somehow. Because a facade isn't the truth about you. And perhaps it has something to do with the conflict between the needs of the 6 and its 5 wing. A "blurred identity" might describe a person who has invested energy into putting forth various and ever-changing faces, as with the chameleon-like 3 (except for the 6 need to be liked). I'm not suggesting you're a 3, but the 6 uses certain abilities of the 3 for this purpose. So the tie with identity is through the Feeling triad but not the type 4 of that triad.

 

[brainheart]

OK, let's not get caught up in insignificant details. Keep it simple.

• Do you ever feel removed or detached from others, or perhaps get "tired out" by other people easily, and want to retreat into your own head or private space as a result?
• Do you ever feel as if something fundamental and unspecified about who you is missing, and that you can't help but express your own tragic existence as a result?
• Do you ever find yourself worrying over whether other people are trustworthy or dependable, and that their lack of dependability will somehow affect you negatively?

There's a gun to your head - which one?

Gun to head... Mine would implode first. (over the first two. )

 

[brainheart]

Yes, but I also fear mistakes in general (though it depends on the enormity of the mistake), and the fact that there is nothing you can do to absolutely ensure physical safety, or things like not getting wrongly convincted of a crime/going to jail.

Wow, that sounds so six it's nuts. My type six sis also has these totally irrational fears of being wrongly accused of something and being thrown in jail. I don't get it at all.

 

[Mal12345]

Wow, that sounds so six it's nuts. My type six sis also has these totally irrational fears of being wrongly accused of something and being thrown in jail. I don't get it at all.

Now you know where the 6's positive law-and-order attitude comes from.

Sometimes you may read about this without reference to a deeper cause, such as fear of the law, of the preacher, or whatever,

I was talking to a salesman at work a couple weeks ago, who was describing himself to me as a hard-working, honest kind of guy. I think I asked him why he was so honest (I don't recall exactly what I asked). He replied that it was more practical to be honest. Because being honest keeps him out of trouble, and such.

I said, "So really, you're not honest, you're just being practical."

Although my own honesty with him may not have been very practical - people don't usually take too kindly to such statements, but he's a salesmen and so he has to put up with me - what he said was just such a blatant statement of a policy that can change when, for whatever reason, honesty is not practical. Virtue is not its own reward, it's not any kind of ideal, just a practical element of reality.

I don't know if the OP can identify with any of this. But as a type 6 OP, it's in like a shot.

 

[Glycerine]

Now you know where the 6's positive law-and-order attitude comes from.

Sometimes you may read about this without reference to a deeper cause, such as fear of the law, of the preacher, or whatever,

I was talking to a salesman at work a couple weeks ago, who was describing himself to me as a hard-working, honest kind of guy. I think I asked him why he was so honest (I don't recall exactly what I asked). He replied that it was more practical to be honest. Because being honest keeps him out of trouble, and such.

I said, "So really, you're not honest, you're just being practical."

Although my own honesty with him may not have been very practical - people don't usually take too kindly to such statements, but he's a salesmen and so he has to put up with me - what he said was just such a blatant statement of a policy that can change when, for whatever reason, honesty is not practical. Virtue is not its own reward, it's not any kind of ideal, just a practical element of reality.

I don't know if the OP can identify with any of this. But as a type 6 OP, it's in like a shot.

Is that what really a type 6 is like? I was considering type 6 for a few months. lol

 

[Mal12345]

Is that what really a type 6 is like? I was considering type 6 for a few months. lol

In my experience, 6's sometimes speak so highly of principles they seem to be 1s. It depends on the person, but as with my childhood friend, whom I shall call "D," the speeches about principles got tiresome.

I agree with the whole facade idea as describing 6s, the way they borrow from the abilities of the 3. As for myself, I was a naive 20 year old, who had never heard of typology, and who didn't understand the inner contradictions of my type 6 friend. I don't suffer from contradictions, so they just didn't compute.

A type 1, on the other hand, is real all the way down. They will simply evaluate and rationally justify anything unusual in their psyches, or in some cases, seek professional help to root out the source of the contradiction with their value-system. Integrity is a way of life for 1s. The 6s, in my experience, hide their contradictions from themselves and others, creating a dual identity for themselves. Sixes become walking contradictions in terms. Even the hypocritical Ones still want to be true to themselves; Sixes want to be "true to themselves" also, at least in the eyes of others. The source of integrity for the One is internal, but for Sixes, it is external, usually social (or tribal).

Other people are essential to forming the identity of the Six. This is a kind of herd identity. Type 6 hipsters (most likely 6w5) still have to know what the mainstream is doing so they can fly in opposition to it and find their identity in the act of rebellion against the mainstream. Rebellion is another type 6 tactic used in an attempt to convince themselves that they really are "all that," and are not living a lie after all.

I'm not bashing 6s and favoring 1s here. I did say that 1s can be hypocrites, after all. The problem with 1s is moral perfectionism, which is impossible to humans, so hypocrisy is inevitable.

 

[Glycerine]

In my experience, 6's sometimes speak so highly of principles they seem to be 1s. It depends on the person, but as with my childhood friend, whom I shall call "D," the speeches about principles got tiresome.

I agree with the whole facade idea as describing 6s, the way they borrow from the abilities of the 3. As for myself, I was a naive 20 year old, who had never heard of typology, and who didn't understand the inner contradictions of my type 6 friend. I don't suffer from contradictions, so they just didn't compute.

A type 1, on the other hand, is real all the way down. They will simply evaluate and rationally justify anything unusual in their psyches, or in some cases, seek professional help to root out the source of the contradiction with their value-system. Integrity is a way of life for 1s. The 6s, in my experience, hide their contradictions from themselves and others, creating a dual identity for themselves. Sixes become walking contradictions in terms. Even the hypocritical Ones still want to be true to themselves; Sixes want to be "true to themselves" also, at least in the eyes of others. The source of integrity for the One is internal, but for Sixes, it is external, usually social (or tribal).

Other people are essential to forming the identity of the Six. This is a kind of herd identity. Type 6 hipsters (most likely 6w5) still have to know what the mainstream is doing so they can fly in opposition to it and find their identity in the act of rebellion against the mainstream. Rebellion is another type 6 tactic used in an attempt to convince themselves that they really are "all that," and are not living a lie after all.

I'm not bashing 6s and favoring 1s here. I did say that 1s can be hypocrites, after all. The problem with 1s is moral perfectionism, which is impossible to humans, so hypocrisy is inevitable.

Thanks for the explanation.... quite interesting. I am definitely not a 6 but it definitely sounds intriguing.

 

[brainheart]

[MENTION=13589]mal12345[/MENTION],

Thanks, that was insightful. It's also been my experience that sixes are always on the lookout for potential impending tragedy, as if their luck must turn. For example, my e six daughter will say things like, "I've had such a great day. I hope nothing bad happens now because of it."

I'm always puzzled by how her mind works. This isn't to say that I don't pay attention and I'm not cautious, but sixes seem to be superstitious about it. For me it's very rational. So she says something like that and all I can think is, "how would your being happy negatively affect our health in any way?" So I help her dissect her thought processes, that way she begins to see it really doesn't make sense.

 

[Mal12345]

[MENTION=13589]mal12345[/MENTION],

Thanks, that was insightful. It's also been my experience that sixes are always on the lookout for potential impending tragedy, as if their luck must turn. For example, my e six daughter will say things like, "I've had such a great day. I hope nothing bad happens now because of it."

I'm always puzzled by how her mind works. This isn't to say that I don't pay attention and I'm not cautious, but sixes seem to be superstitious about it. For me it's very rational. So she says something like that and all I can think is, "how would your being happy negatively affect our health in any way?" So I help her dissect her thought processes, that way she begins to see it really doesn't make sense.

Do you have any idea about her MBTI type? It seems to me that gloom-and-doom prophets often have Si first.

 

[brainheart]

Do you have any idea about her MBTI type? It seems to me that gloom-and-doom prophets often have Si first.

She's not gloom and doom, she'll just out of nowhere say stuff like that. Extroverted feeling, for sure. She talks all the time about how she's psychic and she is typically oblivious of her surroundings, unless there's something threatening. Can't keep her room clean to save her life, but it stresses her out. I'd peg her more as an xnfj.

 

[Mal12345]

She's not gloom and doom, she'll just out of nowhere say stuff like that. Extroverted feeling, for sure. She talks all the time about how she's psychic and she is typically oblivious of her surroundings, unless there's something threatening. Can't keep her room clean to save her life, but it stresses her out. I'd peg her more as an xnfj.

Then I would strongly consider her to be 2w1, 1w2, something like that.

 

[brainheart]

Then I would strongly consider her to be 2w1, 1w2, something like that.

I'm more sure about her e type than mbti type. She strikes me as a 6w7 xnfx.

 

[Alternatum]

OK, let's not get caught up in insignificant details. Keep it simple.

• Do you ever feel removed or detached from others, or perhaps get "tired out" by other people easily, and want to retreat into your own head or private space as a result?
• Do you ever feel as if something fundamental and unspecified about who you is missing, and that you can't help but express your own tragic existence as a result?
• Do you ever find yourself worrying over whether other people are trustworthy or dependable, and that their lack of dependability will somehow affect you negatively?

There's a gun to your head - which one?

1) Oh yes
2) There is something wrong with me, but it's gotta be my navigation system - it's screwed! I sometimes weave a sense of tragedy around this deficiency, but it's spasmodic in expression, and kept on the inside usually
3) Yes - but it's a question of frequency. Worrying about the trustworthiness of others is just part of the mental dance of uncertainty however. I'm more generally into figuring out what the hell is going on here, who am I, and what the hell should I be doing anyway?

With a gun to my head I'd say 1), but I think in summarising 6-ness you've emphasized trust in others too much. I see it more generally about establishing trust and truth in oneself, other people and the universe in general.

 

[Alternatum]

The key to understanding Fours is the need for authenticity or living authentically, which is what you mean by "feels truly myself." The need to engage/relate with others is a key motivating factor for the Six. My reading indicates that the Six attempts to put on a shallow social facade, but fears that this facade will readily be seen through and revealed for what it is.

This has to tie into identity somehow. Because a facade isn't the truth about you. And perhaps it has something to do with the conflict between the needs of the 6 and its 5 wing. A "blurred identity" might describe a person who has invested energy into putting forth various and ever-changing faces, as with the chameleon-like 3 (except for the 6 need to be liked). I'm not suggesting you're a 3, but the 6 uses certain abilities of the 3 for this purpose. So the tie with identity is through the Feeling triad but not the type 4 of that triad.

Yeah that's pretty much it. I didn't put it across well but the four-ish aspect is more to do with hating the idea of losing my vulnerability and how I can weave meaning (e.g. using fantasy) into failure. This creates a dilemma in creating internal ideals, in that I want to be 'competent' but that means losing the vulnerability, so images of super-competence really don't resonate and are hence rejected in favour of a more fragile competence.

 

[Alternatum]

[MENTION=13589]mal12345[/MENTION],
Thanks, that was insightful. It's also been my experience that sixes are always on the lookout for potential impending tragedy, as if their luck must turn. For example, my e six daughter will say things like, "I've had such a great day. I hope nothing bad happens now because of it."

I'm always puzzled by how her mind works. This isn't to say that I don't pay attention and I'm not cautious, but sixes seem to be superstitious about it. For me it's very rational. So she says something like that and all I can think is, "how would your being happy negatively affect our health in any way?" So I help her dissect her thought processes, that way she begins to see it really doesn't make sense.

Speaking for myself, it's an intense feeling that the universe is waiting for your back to be turned (i.e. complacency) before striking. But seriously, it seems like if I anticipate something going bad, it will either go well or just alright - either way that's pretty good to me. A lot of it may just be relativism, but whatever. To the pessimistic six, being unpleasantly surprised or disappointed is much worse than worrying - it means you can't trust your perceptions of things being okay - and that's just plain scary.

 

[VagrantFarce]

With a gun to my head I'd say 1), but I think in summarising 6-ness you've emphasized trust in others too much. I see it more generally about establishing trust and truth in oneself, other people and the universe in general.

Anxiety and an overactive mind are themes common to all the head types, not just 6s. Honestly, I don't see what's wrong with sticking to 5w6 and calling it a day.

 

[Alternatum]

Anxiety and an overactive mind are themes common to all the head types, not just 6s. Honestly, I don't see what's wrong with sticking to 5w6 and calling it a day.

What's wrong is that I find the system essentially subjective - it doesn't help that I keep seeing things differently, like one day I'm emphasizing this aspect of me or the types, the other something else. If I were to say I'm on the 5/6 line, enneagram fans would insist this isn't possible, yet without being able to present a reason based on objective evidence.