[NF] INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?

[Tiltyred]

OR
They can take Cascadeco's excellent advise and make it a blog post and come to terms with the fact that it's personal issues.

 

[Eilonwy]

OR
They can take Cascadeco's excellent advise and make it a blog post and come to terms with the fact that it's personal issues.

Yes, that was excellent advice. I absolutely agree with that.

 

[Tiltyred]

Good morning, Eilonwy.

 

[Standuble]

^See? Spaghetti.

ETA: I have edited the spaghetti story to add in an element of frequency, which I hope helps to illustrate the pov of INFJ, and which was just again verified by iwakar's post.

[MENTION=17127]sorenx7[/MENTION] and [MENTION=14363]Standuble[/MENTION], look at your join date and look at the join dates of other posters on this thread and realize we've known each other for several years while you are newcomers or relative newcomers. People come and go, leave and come back, here, when the content is too much or for whatever reason. It's happened to many of us. It's not disastrous and for the most part, if you leave to process something and come back in a month or whenever, things pick back up where they left off and it's fine. The situation at the moment seems to be that INFJs believe certain INFPs need to process their personal matters in a personal way rather than introduce them as topics concerning type mechanics, to be discussed intellectually. There is enough agreement among INFJs to warrant thorough processing and getting specific about what's causing the problem. If that results in someone becoming uncomfortable, it's perhaps a necessary result. INFJs are saying it can't go on as it has been and it's time to figure out how to resolve the situation.

Or that's what I see.

You're making the mistake of assuming that we had no presence on this website prior to joining. I have lurked on this website and used its pages as insights etc. for a long time prior to account creation. In that time I have become familar with a number of different members. Don't make the mistake that I am unaware of long-term trends and patterns either. Sure, member x may be driven off in shame and come back in a certain amount of time later (this happens on many forums) however it does not erase the incident from history nor does it erase the stress or embarassment caused. I have been shaped by incidents of a similar nature as have others I have encountered over the years.

On another note, you're making the judgment that "things can't go on as they have been" but my question is: why not? You say people must be made uncomfortable in the process, the answer I have is: why? You say the "situation needs resolving" and my question is: does it? I don't think it does, I think its fine. You're on the verge of going into full steamrolling mode and for what? A result which will very likely be ineffectual, unsustainable, temporary and unpopular amongst others who don't share your worldview? Who are you to judge, since when did an INFJ consensus be sufficient? What about those who you trample in the name of fifteen minutes of a situation being satisfactory to you? IMO your post stinks of everything I dislike about INFJs and Fe. As I mentioned before, you could have resolved the issue by debunking the points made and stuck to it, this deviation has from my understanding led you into the cess pit by your own doing.

 

[Tiltyred]

Yeah ok.

 

[Society]

Asking someone to cop to what you think they did wrong is unproductive. For one thing, you might be entirely wrong about what they did wrong. I understand that there might be a valuable lesson that you are trying to convey to that other person, but in all likelihood, unless it's a really obvious moral point, the lesson that you learned and think applies to the other person may not actually apply. It's up to the other person to figure out what the problem is.

that seem's really, deeply... wrong.

it seems to me that - regardless if your specific line of metaphysics even includes an objective world - the understanding of any interaction with anyone should be aspiring it out to a leveled playing field, the larger world in which both skulls and their content exist, and judge yourself and your actions within that larger platform for understanding, and its on that platform where you are able to wrong others, because it's there where your consequences towards others exist, within a world that includes both your own and their perspective.

i think i explained this - a bit harshly perhaps - when [MENTION=6275]the state i am in[/MENTION] tried linking responsibility with Fi:

fuck Fi, what about your Ti? do you have no urge to reach out for a core truth, for something more genuine then the sense of self, out into a larger world with all the things we can not see, such as those inside skulls other then our own? right now at the moment of you reading this, i am responsible for this arrangement of letters on your screens, i pressed buttons which caused them to appear in a certain way. i did not make the technology (and trust me - i would have liked too), i did not build the infrastructure, the circumstances where there to began with, but neither determined my choice, because there is an entity which awhile ago (from your perspective) has moved a mouse and pressed keys which resulted in the arrangement of letters you see before you, and i have control over that entity, that entity is me. i might have pressed wronggly and not noticed the typo, or maybe it all went according to plan, but within that larger world outside, the arrangement of letters is still my responsibility, i am the cause of it.
certainly not all my interactions with these keys are intended - awhile ago i spilled coffee on the laptop, and trust that i had no intention to loose hours upon hours of access to my work while the laptop was being repaired - and there's certainly a reason for it, i am terribly clumsy, i have always being clumsy, years of 'practice' throughout my military service demanding intense situational and physical awareness and i am still freaking clumsy, the question of how i didn't blow myself up aside, it's pretty safe to say my clumsiness isn't something i am likely to fundamentally change. also, in my area of work (fittingly - java coding), i need to stay up and alert for hours while working, i have every reason to drink a lot of coffee.
so there you have it, circumstances, unintended consequences, and very good reasons. yet the causality of the consequences is the entity which is me, which i have control over. it is thus my responsibility. just like the arrangement of letters right now on the screen.
i see myself in the event of actions, and identify the entity which is me. i didn't think of placing the coffee cup further away from the laptop before getting up because i didn't account for those unintended consequences. i could have being more thoughtful about my physical arrangement, and i wasn't, thus it is my fault.

i see myself in the events.
i recognize my bad choice.
i placed my belief in my general competence aside to acknowledge i was wrong.

what is so different about that when the consequences is in the experience of others?
why would you need Fi for that?

this is why i always say the only world in which you won't be wrong is a world in which the perspective of others doesn't exit. once you include that of others, you will unavoidably find yourself in situations where you've wronged them.

 

[Standuble]

The latest spaghetti post made me laugh!

Well, if you live with an unreasonable INFP who keeps messing up the kitchen and won't clean up after herself, what choices do you have? If you've tried and tried to get her to see reason and you still end up bathed in sauce, then maybe it's just time to leave the relationship completely. If your point isn't being heard and you never get hamburger, then why keep beating yourself up and getting all stressed out? I don't believe it's possible to force someone to act the way we want them to, so it seems to me that it's become an exercise in futility. In that case, you either live with it, find a different way to approach it, or you leave. (I don't see any other options, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any, so, if there are other options, let me know.) If you're not married/committed to the INFP and have no obligations to stay, why stay? Find INFPs who don't mess up the kitchen or who at least clean up after themselves.

And I know that we're kind of stuck here in our little spaceship of a forum, where it's difficult to completely avoid anyone who gets on your nerves, so the aggravation keeps resurfacing. I'm not ignoring or denying that at all. I have a very difficult time ignoring the threads or posts that push my buttons or hit me where I live. I feel the need to defend myself when I feel attacked. But sometimes the best way to defend yourself is to ignore the attack. In your (Tilty) first post in this thread you told INFJs to just stay out of the thread, stop participating in it, and I think that was good advice at that point in time. Even if others call it running away, or in denial, or cowardly, or whatever, because they want to keep engaging, there comes a time to stick to your own boundaries and walk away if it's that contentious. Then you just have to hope that there are people who will see, from your actions, that you do bathe regularly.

ETA: To address your latest point: As far as I know we can only ask that the issue not come up again, but we can't stop someone from posting unless they break the rules. So we have to learn to live with that if they refuse to do what we ask.

This forum is not a spaceship and last time I checked even a spaceship would inevitably dock or crash after a certain amount of time and when it does (if you survive) you can leave freely. There is no reason for you to stay if aggravation is the only eventuality. You're welcome to leave the forum completely, put it to the back of your mind and get on with your life. Perhaps people will miss you but perhaps maybe they will not, what do you have to lose?

 

[Tiltyred]

You're welcome to leave, as well. Perhaps people may miss you. Perhaps they may not.

 

[Standuble]

Yeah ok.

Don't "Yeah ok" me. Silly girl. I thought I was pig-headed but you may have just surpassed me. Truly a commendable feat.

You're welcome to leave, as well. Perhaps people may miss you. Perhaps they may not.

You're assuming I want to leave, I am comfortable leaving when I feel the need to and comfortable with the prospect of not being missed in the slightest.

 

[Tiltyred]

Me, too. I regularly leave and then come back, leave and then come back.
LOOK, WE AGREED ON SOMETHING!

 

[Eilonwy]

[MENTION=14363]Standuble[/MENTION], yes, leaving the forum is another viable option. Maybe I should have used the Biosphere Center as an example instead of a spaceship? Nah. That one doesn't quite fit either.

 

[Standuble]

Me, too. I regularly leave and then come back, leave and then come back.
LOOK, WE AGREED ON SOMETHING!

Your last string of responses seem to be extremely immature. Are you acting childish intentionally or what?

 

[Standuble]

[MENTION=14363]Standuble[/MENTION], yes, leaving the forum is another viable option. Maybe I should have used the Biosphere Center as an example instead of a spaceship? Nah. That one doesn't quite fit either.

You should have just used the universe as an example. Works when I try it.

 

[Eilonwy]

You should have just used the universe as an example. Works when I try it.

But...but...but...you can't just leave the universe voluntarily, can you?


ETA: Wait! I've got it! TypoC is The Matrix and real life is the illusion. In order to leave TypoC you must choose between the red pill and the blue pill.

 

[Tiltyred]

Your last string of responses seem to be extremely immature. Are you acting childish intentionally or what?

Being serious is worthwhile but sometimes it doesn't serve the purpose. It doesn't seem to be doing much here, in my estimation.
Sometimes a little light-heartedness (call it immaturity) is a good thing. Surely you don't want me to take your last remarks directed at me seriously? We hardly know each other.

I had a friend who had a sign over her bed that read "If you can't be good in bed, at least be funny."

fwiw

 

[uumlau]

that seem's really, deeply... wrong.

it seems to me that - regardless if your specific line of metaphysics even includes an objective world - the understanding of any interaction with anyone should be aspiring it out to a leveled playing field, the larger world in which both skulls and their content exist, and judge yourself and your actions within that larger platform for understanding, and its on that platform where you are able to wrong others, because it's there where your consequences towards others exist, within a world that includes both your own and their perspective.

You misunderstand me. Let's say that person A has determined that person B has done something wrong.

So A's thought consists of three pieces:

1. B is doing X.
2. X is wrong.
3. B is doing something wrong.

It is wholly possible for statement 1 or 2 or 3 to be true or false in any combination. The particular case I'm thinking about is #3, that it is correct that B is doing something wrong, and B probably needs to apologize for it, but A's analysis (in 1 and 2) is entirely false. Perhaps A is missing information, say as in a silly example, that B is preparing chicken parmesan, not spaghetti, and 1 and 2 are explaining how the spaghetti is being prepared wrong by B. It's entirely possible for A to be correct in the context of spaghetti, but not chicken parmesan. It's also entirely possible for B to be wrong in the context of chicken parmesan (didn't cook the chicken enough, oops!), and that's going to be what B has to apologize for when you get salmonella poisoning, not for making the spaghetti wrong (it tasted quite good, actually).

Translating into the world of moral values: the moral quandary with which B needs to wrestle is not necessarily the moral quandary that others are saying that B needs to deal with.

 

[Tiltyred]

It isn't, necessarily.
But it might be.
And the likelihood that it is is increased by the number of people who observe it and say so. I say the likelihood. It's possible all the observers could be wrong, but if a number of independent observers voice their opinions independently, which has happened, then that's a lot of wrong people all at once.
I'm just sayin'.

 

[Jaguar]

Sometimes a little light-heartedness (call it immaturity) is a good thing.

Okay. Can you tell me which one is the INFJ and which is the INFP?

 

[Tiltyred]

Duh. The blonde is INFP.

 

[uumlau]

It isn't, necessarily.
But it might be.
And the likelihood that it is is increased by the number of people who observe it and say so. I say the likelihood. It's possible all the observers could be wrong, but if a number of independent observers voice their opinions independently, which has happened, then that's a lot of wrong people all at once.
I'm just sayin'.

I'm used to seeing lots of wrong people at once.

The thing is, they're all mostly right in the main, but critically wrong in the margins, and it's in the margins that the war is being waged.