[NF] INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?

[Tiltyred]

*nod nod*

 

[uumlau]

You are a very evolved individual uumlau. This is apparent in each and every post you make on this forum - I've always recognized this in you. And what you say above is...I believe...the 'healthy' thing to do. But I do feel there is something about say...our types...both MBTI & enneagram that makes doing the above easier. Believe it or not I still haven't had enough coffee yet to explain what I am attempting to say...but yah. There does seem to be something that doesn't feel right about saying the above to an INFJ...something that feels like misunderstanding what they are experiencing/feeling.

edit...I should say...saying the above in this kind of circumstance.

Yeah, I'd say that my (general theoretical) advice on the topic would be kind of hard for an INFJ e6 to take, especially if counterphobic. Sometimes the worst thing to tell people in a heated argument is, "calm down."

 

[skylights]

The cat analogy is excellent, [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION]. I am really enjoying and appreciating your contributions to this thread.

[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] -- what I'm hearing is that INFJs have reached out, and it hasn't made any difference, that for some reason OA keeps bringing her same axe to grind, such that as soon as INFJs see her coming, they know what the deal is -- they will be accused of certain things, and nothing anyone says will give her any relief, or no matter what they admit to or apologize for, it won't be enough. "Omg, please, not this again."

I think I see what you mean - it's like it keeps getting harped on. I can agree with that and I see why it would create frustration. On my end, I do apologize for seeming to harp on it too. The point isn't trying to grind it into the ground - to me, it still feels like a loose end.

I think that from the NFP viewpoint, it may still feel like the implicit question in OA's post remains unresolved:
If that isn't what INFJs do, then how did she (or how could someone else) end up with that impression?

I hate to get back on the subject of the OP, but the thing about the prompt is that it had two "parts": the first being what INFJs do and the second being "that drives [INFPs] nuts". Maybe OA got the part about exactly what INFJs are doing wrong - and I guess to Ni/Ti that invalidates her entire point - but to me it seems like clearly something about INFJs does drive her nuts, regardless, and to me it seems like the whole point of a thread like this would be to explore the reason for those feelings. We may never know without her input, of course, but if others have had those feelings too, we could discuss the Ne possibilities for the origins of those Fi feelings.

 

[Tiltyred]

Carry on then.

 

[Starry]

My conception of the "NFP story" is this: OA answered the prompt; she was making a contribution within fair bounds of the posed request. No, it wasn't friendly, and yes, the tone was kind of self-serving, but she did provide genuine information to work with, and that information was never addressed in the way the original premise of the thread suggested it would be. It was startling and somewhat ironic that the conversation turned almost immediately into what was fair or not fair to blame INFJs for, instead of what INFJs do that drives INFPs crazy. So, IMO, the "NFP story" is simply that the original premise had been departed from completely as of OA's list.

It almost seems like that post created a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. It was clearly the point where a major disconnect occurred, like some weird kind of stalemate where INFJs wouldn't touch her ideas because they're presented in too offensive a format, but all it would take for her format to become less offensive would be someone touching those ideas - all that's needed is just one INFJ to shatter the dystopian paradigm.

It reminds me of something a Fe user explained once (sorry, I can't remember who!) about needing a "safe space" for exchange of personal information - how harmony was a prerequisite to sharing, not an assumed point of conclusion. Perhaps the stalemate occurred because the FJ safe sharing space was immediately shut down by that threat of attack - but it's unfortunate because what OA needed to reestablish harmony was for an FJ to reach out.

OMG thank goodness for 'Auto Restore Content' (or whatever it is called). My computer battery is dying and it shut down on me! Anyhoo...

I think a lot of what I would say in response to this post was in my response to PB just prior to this message. I think you may have been writing this out when I posted it. What you say makes quite a bit of sense if this had been the first time this had occurred but this has been going on for a long time. With INFJs responding...doing what they can to try and understand. But in spite of these efforts things do not progress...and I guess the frustration is feeling like they always arrive back at square-one. So in this way I can understand that feeling of...'No seriously, what do you want?' 'Please tell us what your intentions are.'

^^So then some NFPs arrive saying...'She's looking for your input. She's hurt or >insert whatever feeling< and is sincerely attempting to modify her perspective.' Which even to me is a massive 'mixed message'. I will say that the entire time I've been here I've never believed that. Before I truly took a look at this thing I was feeling more of what you were saying above. 'Hey man, she answered the call.' And uumlau's suggestion of (although I'm simplifying it here to fit what I was actually saying)...'Don't even pay attention to her if it upsets you. It's not worth it.' But I was speaking from type. And now that I'm looking at it from a larger vantage point...it is easier to see where the conflicts/issues are. And I would feel good about it ending at this point. That does not mean I believe the issues that were raised should not be addressed - not in the least. I want to find out why I seem to repeatedly do #3 from the list haha.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I don't really feel that emotional. This is the useful part of these threads that I like when the real conflict has lost steam and the post-mortem begins to see if there is anything of use that can be taken away. My tone gets a little more abrupt as I get more frustrated with not being able to communicate directly despite both speaking the same language. I'm not even sure where those disconnects are so I can't improve the problem and I just feel stymied. That bugs me, but it's not really about the people in the thread that much. I mean, there's momentary irritation, but nothing that's going to keep me awake at night. I think there are INFJs that are upset by this thread, but I'm not sure it's for the same reasons that the INFPs might perceive it is. Similarly, I can see that we're not improving things, but I'm not sure where the disconnect is. I mean, everyone feels like they've said the same thing a million times, and then suddenly when it's rephrased just slightly, it becomes useful to the other party. I wish I knew how to expedite that process!

The more this thread goes along the more it reminds me of this fid post. There's a difference between 'needing to get in the last word' and 'ironing out nuances that are interesting to see if there's something useful to take away'. But maybe because it's viewable to everyone- and (like Starry said in previous post) those 'nuances' seem somehow 'wrong' to iron out to some- it's just a mistake.


eta:

I think a lot of what I would say in response to this post was in my response to PB just prior to this message. I think you may have been writing this out when I posted it. What you say makes quite a bit of sense if this had been the first time this had occurred but this has been going on for a long time. With INFJs responding...doing what they can to try and understand. But in spite of these efforts things do not progress...and I guess the frustration is feeling like they always arrive back at square-one. So in this way I can understand that feeling of...'No seriously, what do you want?' 'Please tell us what your intentions are.'

And thank you, Starry, for seeing it.

eta: also, [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION], everytime I see your avi and my avi right next to each other in the forum I think they SHOULD TOTALLY GET MARRIED.

 

[PeaceBaby]

In an interesting thread twist, I am aligned with Mane here:

it seems to me that - regardless if your specific line of metaphysics even includes an objective world - the understanding of any interaction with anyone should be aspiring it out to a leveled playing field, the larger world in which both skills and their content exist, and judge yourself and your actions within that larger platform for understanding, and its on that platform where you are able to wrong others, because it's there where your consequences towards others exist, within a world that includes both your own and their perspective.

This is exactly it.

this is why i always say the only world in which you won't be wrong is a world in which the perspective of others doesn't exit. once you include that of others, you will unavoidably find yourself in situations where you've wronged them.

And exactly that. It's not about right or wrong. It's about perspective. Right or wrong is a power game.

again, you and the metaphor seem to be missing what i am saying:
in what context is person B doing X to person A is wrong? in the realm and experience of person A, where A has being wronged. whether doing X to A is wrong is derived from A's experience of X.

to apply to the metaphor (and stretch beyond it's usefulness): B's intention of making chicken Parmesan rather then spaghetti bolognese are irrelevant if the reason A objected to spaghetti bolognese are that A is allergic to oregano.

An effective stretch of the metaphor, I like it. It's about taste, choice, necessity, economy, survival even - not about who's right or wrong. Since when is a personal preference even about right or wrong?



You come to my house, I make you spaghetti (let's assume we both like spaghetti). But you don't like it because you don't like oregano. Does you disliking an ingredient in the sauce make me, the cook wrong? Perhaps I would be wrong if I knew your tastes in the first place and then added even more oregano to boot, just to add insult to the meal. (This, I imagine, is what INFJ's think OA is doing, adding extra oregano.)

But if I don't know you don't like oregano, how else am I supposed to know? Watch your face, body language? Sure. Ask you for feedback? Sure. You tell me you don't like the sauce. Great, now I have a starting point at least! But then, since there are 10 ingredients in my pasta sauce, how will I know that you object only to the oregano? I'm left considering every ingredient, omitting each one in turn, in a bid to make a spaghetti sauce that pleases you. (This would be me in thread, going through every option I can think of to figure out what's got INFJ's bothered.)

Then, there are additional considerations. Maybe that version of my pasta sauce is the only recipe I know. Maybe it's my best recipe. Maybe you just don't like greek oregano, but you actually like sweet marjoram. I could buy sweet marjoram. Maybe I think you disliking it the first time was only because you were having a bad day before you got to my house. Sheesh.

***Please, can't you just tell me you don't like oregano in the first place! It would save so much time!***

ETA: now, if you don't KNOW you don't like oregano, it's going to take more work for us to figure it out together. (That's what brings me back to this thread and this issue all the time it seems.) But don't just shut down! Don't stop coming to my house and eating with me! Don't assume I made yukky sauce to make sure you don't come back! We can figure it out you know.

And then after dinner, maybe you will be open to looking at my 1000 vacation pictures! jkjk

 

[Starry]

I guess I'm just naive then? I didn't think it was in bad faith? I still do believe it's a good faith effort.

What you wrote above was sad/hard for me to read. I even put some thought in how to respond...but of course that didn't do me any good ha. But 'naivety' is probably one of the last things I would describe you as. I think your scope is vast (is that even a phrase? 'scope is vast'? sounds kinda weird but I think you might know what I'm saying)...and nothing much gets by you. I wouldn't even say you're 'naive' in this instance. And much of what you have already said...I don't think we see things all that much differently. I think you are just within the border of 'good faith effort'...and I'm just inside 'not trying to understand but rather persuade others to her view'. I don't know what accounts for this difference as I generally side with you 99% of the time so I guess it is exciting that we have discovered an area where we disagree! I think that's kinda cool...especially since I have such a great respect for your reason. Or reasoning. Your overall reasoning abilities and quick, bright mind.

 

[uumlau]

I think your scope is vast(is that even a phrase? 'scope is vast'? sounds kinda weird but I think you might know what I'm saying)

How about this phrase: "Avast, ye scopey dogs!"

 

[Starry]

How about this phrase: "Avast, ye scopey dogs!"

See now I wish I actually wrote 'I think you're avast, ye scopey dogs!' For the rest of my life I will wish I had done this haha!!! That is so funny.

 

[PeaceBaby]

How about this phrase: "Avast, ye scopey dogs!"

Yes, let's turn the thread to pirate talk: "Ahoy ye long-eared INFJ's, I be looking to make communications with ye, not sending ye down to Davy Jones' Locker. Please tell me how best to phrase my ramblings so we be splicing the mainbrace together!"

 

[Starry]

eta: also, [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION], everytime I see your avi and my avi right next to each other in the forum I think they SHOULD TOTALLY GET MARRIED.

Will your avatar marry my avatar? (that was a proposal). You know what's weird though...my inclination is to take hundreds of avatars into my dressing room...and change to a new one everyday...but you would not believe the rep comments I get on this avatar! From female members that know who he is...to those that don't. Your avatar has a lot of competition (she's not the jealous type right? haha I don't even know what I'm saying).

 

[Society]

hmm, i like where this is going...
[MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION] - can my midget ride your unicorn?

 

[Tiltyred]

[MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION], I believe your line here is "Yeah ok"

 

[skylights]

I just think it sends a conflicting/confusing message when you or SK or anyone says she is making a good-faith effort to reach-out to INFJs in order to better understand them. What I have seen for nearly 3 years now is INFJs responding to her message (this same message)...having their responses rejected...and then a few months later rinse and repeat. How long should this process continue?

Ah, I see. ENFP to the core, I am horribly unobservant, and unsurprisingly I have not noted that! Props to you for being an observant ENFP.

I did my homework - now I understand what you meant before - and I see what you mean. I agree that it is a longstanding pattern and the issue is definitely more personal than typological - but there is still some kind of hangup where type is concerned. Also - all of us here know N and F both really struggle to process well where there is divisiveness and conflict, so we can safely assume that at some instinctive level, OA hates them too, and would prefer to eradicate their existence. It is something all NFs share.

The fascinating thing about this thread to me is that I can begin to understand OA's perspective from the post content (at least, to the extent that I have been able to keep up!) INFJs approach matters so differently from the native Ne-Fi approach that it can feel like refusal to interact. NFP Ne-Te processes are expansive, inclusive, categorical; NFJ Ni-Ti processes are distilling, honing, analytical. NFP Fi process is concerned with feeling within; NFJ Fe is concerned with feeling between. The NFJ approach can feel like a Fe fence around a Ni-Ti tower. It seemed that INFJs were unwilling to even consider that OA's feelings were legitimate: I assume now this is because they do not Ni-Ti agree with her premise of what INFJs are doing to create those feelings - in addition to all the unpleasantness of her tone, which would be repelling to anyone, of course. From that Ni-Ti perspective, assuming I grasp it well enough, I can understand why there could be no point in engaging. Nothing useful can come of exploring a premise that we know to be incorrect in its definition, particularly if the language it's couched in suggests further disharmony to come.

Regardless, from the perspective that INFJs are just refusing to consider that someone else might be right, I can begin to understand OA's tone. If she kept posting this idea, and INFJs being INFJs, continued responding to it in essentially similar ways, then it would simply reinforce her conclusion, escalating her negative feelings even more. The gist of her post, as I see it, is that INFJs see themselves as always right/good/correct. And that's really funny to me, because a longstanding joke between myself and my ENFJ best friend is that she's always right. We laugh about it now, but it took me years to understand that she didn't actually think that: her communications and behavior seemed to support it. Thankfully, she's going into psychology, so we've broken each other's psyches (and egos!) down many times over our years of friendship.

I took the time today to "answer" OA's list with trying to explain to myself why these feelings may have arisen, mostly based on my interactions with my ENFJ friend. It might be generally irrelevant, but I wanted to post it because I think something like this may have been what some of us were expecting - at least, the reason why OA came to have these feelings is the question I have been searching for an answer for throughout this whole thread.

1. General paranoia.

Ni is a forecasting mechanism in many ways; all NJs harbor some gift of "seeing into the future". Inescapably, some of that future is going to be harmful and painful - and it's human nature to protect against that. I understand this deeply as an enneagram 6 and share this with Ni users: the future is coming, and all we can do is try to identify the dangers before it's too late to protect ourselves. Others who see this and do not have that same danger-seeking tendency may think that we are unreasonably paranoid, but to us they seem blissfully ignorant.

2. Selfishness and denial; playing tyrant/victim.

All any of us can do is give in the way we understand best, since the only place we have to start is ourselves - our understanding of "good", our understanding of "help", everything that is the foundation of our existence in this world plays into that. None of us can ever escape our perspective. What I have experienced with my NFJ friend is that she will tend to guide me in certain directions that she also travels in not because she wants to benefit personally from it, but because she genuinely believes that her chosen direction is the singular best to go towards. It would be wrong/cruel to guide me in any other way than what she believes to be best.

What I have learned as an NFP is this often means waiting until I have a filled out picture of my idea that is different from hers before presenting it, and then demonstrating it to her and letting her see how it is good. Often, when she sees that final picture, she'll acknowledge that it is good, too - she might even get really excited about it, or change her own mind, as well. But she needs that filled out picture from me to do that - this seems consistent with the ideas of cake and spaghetti that have been presented in this thread. Up until that point, however, if she can't see how something is beneficial, she can't in good conscience support it. (The "spaghetti dinner", it turns out, is an unconventional spaghetti lasagna. You let an NFP be in charge of the kitchen, what do you expect?)

3. They will not take personal responsibility* for any problem in their life.

I think @SilkRoad explained this well at some point in the thread. Honestly, INFJs probably don't usually cause a lot of problems in their lives, at least not direct causation, not an action that directly precipitated the current circumstance. Ni doms look so far ahead all the time and Fe users are so aware of external effect that it's very unlikely for them to unwittingly create an obstacle.

That said, I have experienced a situation where my ENFJ friend refused to accept any blame for an issue that she played a part in, and the way I see it, she was just one more chain in a link of people that caused the problem - but to her, because she wasn't the final link, she wasn't part of the real problem. I say that her interaction played into the problem as a whole; she says that if the final person hadn't done what they did, it wouldn't be a problem. Both of us are right, I figure. I think her precise meaning of "responsibility" is different than mine - I think hers is more about direct precipitation of external effect. She expressed remorse for the process in its entirety.

4. General delusion*.

Ni is focused differently than Ne; it discards what it doesn't see as important. Ne drags along everything for the ride regardless of whether it is true or real or not. Which one is more delusional?

5. They are not simply sensitive to criticism; they refuse to acknowledge they have flaws at all.

What I have learned with my ENFJ friend is that she seems icy on the surface sometimes but is in fact very deeply sensitive to criticism, but will not display it outwardly - I don't think she really sees any point in engaging the external world in it. She carries a lot of anxiety, hurt, upset, and unease deep down inside... she spends a huge amount of time worrying about whether she's living up to her mother's expectations, for instance. NFPs present their flaws to the world for everyone to see; NFJs contain them. NFPs hide other things. The two types just put different things in different mental places.

Also, let me grab that Van der Hoop quote:

[Ni dominants] may make demands on others without being prepared to meet the same demands themselves. Egotism, and a desire to dominate, may cause them to use these requirements of an ideal relationship to benefit their own agenda.

The thing with Ni is that their agenda is the "best" agenda (as seen through the Ni lens). So of course everything is going to be tailored to benefit that agenda; nothing else would make sense. Fi does the same thing. We create an "ideal" version of the world, too, and we too are led by egotism to apply those values to everyone. But just because we make demands doesn't mean we always live up to our ideals, either.

6. They make promises or state intentions they either cannot keep or don't intend to keep.

This item is the one I understand least and do not think I have ever experienced, short of my own understanding of "manipulation" that I brought up earlier, wherein something is framed in a specific way seemingly to encourage specific behavior. I do know that my ENFJ friend will do this purposefully at times when she is trying to create a good behavior in someone's life who is resistant to that behavior. I do that in some respects, too, though: I try to discourage my alcoholic friend from drinking, etc. That is all I can really say about this one.

7. INSANE double standards.

A misperception created by flipped functions and the Ni-Fe nature of strict behavioral control outside accompanied by containing personal worries and shortcomings inside.

Answered my own lingering questions - maybe inaccurately, but as best as I could. If anyone wants to correct my understanding, they're more that welcome. At least maybe something in there can help to open some doors to mutual understanding. It's worth a shot.

I just hope I don't offend anyone accidentally with anything! I apologize in advance!

hmm, i like where this is going...
@uumlau - can my midget ride your unicorn?

This is the worst mental picture I have had all day.

 

[Society]

^ i will say one thing for INFJs: whenever this thread smelled like it's dying, and everyone seemed quite happy about that, it was always someone with no Fe who'd reactivate it and decide to bring it back on track.

 

[Cellmold]

Judgement is always better trained on oneself or the impersonal world.

There is a lesson here ive always thought.

 

[Society]

Judgement is always better trained on oneself or the impersonal world.

There is a lesson here ive always thought.

i've being wondering when you'll show up.

first of all i might add the disclaimer:

(for those here who don't frequent vent or know of the on/off discussions on the matter) - i have no freaking clue what type you are, you have being the hardest person to pinpoint in my few months of knowing typology, the only thing i am nearly certain about is that you have Fe>Ti somewhere within your function order, so xxFJ is highly likely.
you do however have a trait which i find to be distinctly INFJish, which i can't quite describe wholly but, if someone asked me to describe the INFJs i've known in one encompassing generalization, i would say "the ones who observe" - again, not sure of your type, but this quality does sound a lot like you from your RL-self-description.

now for the main point: i won't talk particulars, that's your own personal stuff, but in general, i perceive you as the exact opposite of what has being said here, as in, the other extreme.

i've seen you trying to take responsibility for what you have done what you haven't done what you highly unlikely to have being the cause others to do in a 70 mile chain of causality.

you question yourself so much that you can make me look bad (humbling) even at my most extreme NeFe loop states (which is why initially i thought you might be an NeFe looper).

you are constantly looking back on things and revisiting them by placing yourself in the shoes of other people on the other side of any equation. in each and every single case where you described yourself having trouble with someone else not meeting a standard you thought you had, you then expressed or thought out loud of cases showing how you understand that you too don't quite fit it and that it's just normal and human.

you find yourself to be wrong, A LOT - in the good way. you are constantly finding new things you've think you've done wrong or have being wrong about, and you don't seem the slightest bit shy about talking about those openly. it's like.. if we where a tribe of rats in a maze, your mind is the one building a mental profile of all the wrong-ways to go and what's a wrong-path looks like.

in essence, you are the exact opposite of the INFJs that me, OA, standuable, skylight and others here have encountered in our respective RL's. you are the other extreme on the exact same spectrum.

what gives?

 

[Southern Kross]

And to the rest of your post: there is a big difference between doubting someone’s sincerity/motivations and doubting something *is* what someone is saying it is. If it’s about a person’s feelings- then yes, content should be treated like it is what they’re saying it is. But that’s precisely why that shouldn’t be mixed with supposedly ‘objective’ theory. There is a huge difference (at least in my mind) between doubting someone’s sincerity and simply doubting what they’re saying (not about their intentions…but about the ‘theory’ they are presenting) is the Truth.

You must be careful here. Just because you don't see how 'objective' and subjective views can work together effectively, doesn't mean it can't work. It might cause confusion for you, yes - and that's something NFPs should try to clear up as best we can in future - but just because it confuses you doesn't mean there is no valid use or worth in mixing the two. At very least, it is something we cannot help because we don't see the world in such distinct divisions as you do.

I'm not saying you have to agree - I'm just saying, please keep an open mind to other forms of reasoning than your own and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I do want to ask though, SK, specifically which parenthetical phrase you are referring to with this:

Oops sorry. I see now there were multiple brackets. I'll put the whole thing to help with context. The bolded was most interesting to me:

I’m not quite sure how to reconcile this. I think on our end, at least part of this reconciliation means trying to remember that what looks like *playing stupid* (or ‘trying to enforce a really self-serving, short-sighted pov’) is actually just ‘presenting raw batter where we would be presenting finished cake’. Getting offended by it is, I believe, projecting a tendency to prioritize doing that work internally (I suspect seeing Fe’ers as ‘believing we are RIGHT’ is similarly about projecting a tendency to prioritize introverted judgment about an immediate/isolated context….and expecting us to be able to share brand new judgment immediately- which we can’t do because it isn’t our priority to investigate new judgment immediately.....eta: and the truth is rather that we've just put judgment completely on hold).

Do you mean that the Fi assumption of a Fe judgement, is like the Ni assumption of a Ne conclusion?

[MENTION=5723]Tiltyred[/MENTION] I find your spaghetti metaphor interesting and amusing. I guess a demonstration of what Z Buck said about the appearance of intentional stupidity. "Spaghetti? What spaghetti? What are you insinuating?"

This is basically the equivalent of my sky metaphor. To me the sky is plainly blue and INFJs want me to justify my reasoning for thinking that. Weird...

In the TypeC version, INFP just keeps having a blind compulsion to go into the kitchen and rattle pots and pans, gets out the big pot and starts water running, puts a box of noodles on the counter and gets out the tomato sauce, and INFJ says "Oh shit, here we go with the spaghetti again." And people hear the noise in the kitchen and ask INFJ what's going on, and INFJ says "INFP is having another go at spaghetti," and people talk about whether it's spaghetti or linguine and wonder why the ingredients are flying all over the place, somebody tries to show INFP how to dice a tomato (which advise is refused on the grounds that she's not trying to dice it, she's trying to cut it into small pieces, but if you suggest that dice and small piece are the same thing, you're accused of just wanting to be correct all the time), somebody comes in with a bar rag and goes over the counters, somebody says I think her aunt lived in Italy actually, somebody says they don't even like spaghetti, somebody goes over the etymology of spaghetti, someone else informs the crowd of the difference between spaghetti and egg noodles, somebody else says man, I was married to her cousin and she threw the spaghetti pot at me so hard I have a knot on my head to this day, let us examine this matter of spaghetti, and INFP screams from the kitchen, "IT IS NOT SPAGHETTI!" and INFJ says "I KNOW SPAGHETTI WHEN I SEE IT!"

Exactly.

To take the metaphor further: say that the cooked spaghetti the INFJ sees, is in fact raamen. The INFJ then talks on about the INFP cooking Italian. The INFP is baffled and confused because they're aiming for Asian cuisine. Italian and Asian food being nothing alike in flavours they don't get where this random Italian comments are coming from. The INFP doesn't see that by rattling the pots, boiling water etc, and cooking numerous, long, thin, dough-based food, is setting all sort of signals off to the INFJ.

Perhaps the INFP works out that the INFJ has mistaken raamen for spaghetti and tries to convince the INFJ of this. But the INFJ says, "that's ridiculous! Why would anyone cook Italian food using raamen? It has to be spaghetti".

 

[Cellmold]

i've being wondering when you'll show up.

first of all i might add the disclaimer:

(for those here who don't frequent vent or know of the on/off discussions on the matter) - i have no freaking clue what type you are, you have being the hardest person to pinpoint in my few months of knowing typology, the only thing i am nearly certain about is that you have Fe>Ti somewhere within your function order, so xxFJ is highly likely.
you do however have a trait which i find to be distinctly INFJish, which i can't quite describe wholly but, if someone asked me to describe the INFJs i've known in one encompassing generalization, i would say "the ones who observe" - again, not sure of your type, but this quality does sound a lot like you from your RL-self-description.

now for the main point: i won't talk particulars, that's your own personal stuff, but in general, i perceive you as the exact opposite of what has being said here, as in, the other extreme.

i've seen you trying to take responsibility for what you have done what you haven't done what you highly unlikely to have being the cause others to do in a 70 mile chain of causality.

you question yourself so much that you can make me look bad (humbling) even at my most extreme NeFe loop states (which is why initially i thought you might be an NeFe looper).

you are constantly looking back on things and revisiting them by placing yourself in the shoes of other people on the other side of any equation. in each and every single case where you described yourself having trouble with someone else not meeting a standard you thought you had, you then expressed or thought out loud of cases showing how you understand that you too don't quite fit it and that it's just normal and human.

you find yourself to be wrong, A LOT - in the good way. you are constantly finding new things you've think you've done wrong or have being wrong about, and you don't seem the slightest bit shy about talking about those openly. it's like.. if we where a tribe of rats in a maze, your mind is the one building a mental profile of all the wrong-ways to go and what's a wrong-path looks like.

in essence, you are the exact opposite of the INFJs that me, OA, standuable, skylight and others here have encountered in our respective RL's. you are the other extreme on the exact same spectrum.

what gives?

Hah thanks for the good words My Mane man! But to be fair, it's easier to think back on an act and assess your reactions and actions, than it is to do so in the heat of the moment. I won't lie, there were times when I was very moody on this holiday ive just had and while I did apologise and solve my error's afterwards, there are times I didn't .

However, I will say that it's easier for me to talk about aiming judgement on myself than others, rather than doing it, but it's something ive now realised I wish to obtain. The first step has been a big one; realising that I needn't be so up-tight about my mistakes or how I appear to others.

In fact this holiday helped. My best friend, (not sure on type), decided to take an idea he had used on skiing trips with his university and then apply it to our group holiday. Essentially it involved the terms "Dick of the day" and "Stack of the day".

Stack of the day involves the person who had the most spectacular fall on a day out skiing. Whoever the unfortunate individual was, had to wear a cow-bell bought from a local shop. As with dick of the day the group could all vote at the end of the day on whose fall was the best. I didn't win this honour though.

Dick of the day involves a person wearing a T-shirt for some perceived move of dickishness. This is summed up by a democratic appeal by the group where each member can suggest any acts of dickishness they have seen. This was then recorded for each day on the back of the T-shirt in permanent marker, explaining what the act was and what day it happened on. For example on the first day, I forgot not once, but twice my rucksack, even after being reminded of it constantly by others.

Normally I would have been apprehensive, nervous and eventually angry at the ridicule I knew I would receive. But with this element in place, I realised how little it mattered, a minor detail and what's more a potentially humourous one. In fact this system helped me understand my own nature very well in terms of failure and self-loathing. I was able to understand that my automatic assumption on what others would think, an idea I had about how the interaction would go down, (Ni+Fe), was in fact crippling me and making me unnecessarily angsty. So instead I turned the judgement on myself.

Instead of anger towards how others would react, (which I had no proof of at all), I saw my role and place within this system as a humourous one and it let me understand and react in a more positive manner, as opposed to a defensive negative one. This is of course hard to do and it was only then I realised what Lenore Thompson was talking about when she wrote that it takes a 'deliberate and conscious effort' to train the secondary function on oneself.

Sadly this is a lesson that must be repeated for people though out their lives, after all one situation is hardly going to be the definer for the entire wealth of experiences in life.

Also I will mention, although i'm sure ive told you this before, that my lack of experience in a romantic relationship means it is far too easy for me to maintain an emotional distance from such issues. In fact those experiences involve a much deeper entwining of psyche's and emotional states, much more so than mere group ridicule.

But that is step two.