[NF] INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?

[PeaceBaby]

But I certainly do not believe she is 'bouncing half-baked ideas off people in order to receive feedback and subsequently sharpen her own perspective/understanding.' I believe she's quite confident in her assertions...and is highlighting a different part of our story...the chapter on how we...when we just know we are *right* and are determined to correct this error in everyone else's mind...we'll repeat ourselves over and over again until we feel heard. Which frankly I don't have a problem with this. I just feel uncomfortable when NFPs are attempting to say this is the 'raw batter phase'. I don't get the sense she believes all INFJs suck. But I feel they are probably 'guilty' until they prove themselves innocent in her mind. And yah...that's about it. It's cake.

I've gone back and re-read the first 320 posts in this thread, up until OA's exit.

1: There's some great stuff I didn't acknowledge at the time; it's so hard to keep up with the sheer volume of info in these posts, and then someone else will reply to that person and I'll just figure it's addressed for expediency's sake. Plus, it's easier to connect the dots in retrospect. I wish I had answered a few more of [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] 's questions myself along the way and acknowledged her contributions, and what she was trying to do. And thought more on [MENTION=6275]the state i am in[/MENTION] 's posts ... and answered a little more for [MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION]. And [MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION] too ... too much to digest!

2: Do I think OA appears decided on her opinion and is just trying to shove it down everyone's throats? In some posts yes, sometimes no. Is it possible she sees INFJ's as "guilty" until proven "innocent"? Yes.

However, what I can say with about 95% certainty is that she wouldn't be in here discussing anything if it was already "cake" or some sort of finished product. It might even be in the oven, but it's not cake yet. If it was me in here posting OA's posts, it would be because I wouldn't want to come to the conclusion I'm close to making. I'd want something that restores my faith in what I used to believe. I really don't see it as something with a sinister agenda, anything vindictive.

But, I could be naive or not seeing it or just plain incorrect. I can't claim to know for sure.


-----

I actually considered whether or not to use this (what I think Starry is talking about) as an example- because it’s something that’s happened in this thread- but yeah. An example of ‘raw batter’ might be the way I’ve seen NFPs bring up the argument “Well….the op DOES ask for INFPs to give their opinion” (mostly it was in OA’s defense). I don’t know how to explain why, but it’s one of the things that has made me think “Really? It isn’t obvious why that doesn’t work here?”

I’m still having trouble articulating why it’s an example- and really my priority is on answering SK’s post- I’m only posting quickly to say Starry isn’t imagining this. (And honestly, out of curiosity, I’d be interested in hearing how many other FJs kind felt a little bit every time someone brought it up…..because I know I did, and this isn’t something I’ve shared with Starry so I’m a bit relieved even to see I’m not alone in it. eta: seriously though- even if through rep where it won't kick up more dust- let me know because I really am curious how many other FJs felt a tiny bit of annoyance over this being brought up again and again...)

@bold: Well, most of us will never tell you anything negative if you don't invite us to, because we don't want any hurt feelings. It would breech personal values of a sort, sort of the INFP code I guess? So, if you eye-rolled on it, it does make me feel sad you see that as something disingenuous. We really see it as permission to engage at a deeper level with less protocol.

I have mentioned a couple of times that I wish the thread had been split off, because there really *should* be a thread for INFPs to give feedback about INFJs. This stopped being *that thead* quite a while ago.

Ya, this one took quite a strange turn.

Something I wanted to point out about 'cake' is that it isn't finished product. My point in the analogy is just that it's been 'cooked'- but it can still very much be far from 'done'. And I think Starry is trying to point out that it doesn't seem like OA is shooting from the hip with this stuff- it's stuff that's been stewing for quite a while (and she's erected whole Lego cities around it).

Why is that a problem though, assuming it's true? Aside from what's already been discussed? (Venting mixed with theory mixed with personal stuff etc. and "alarm bells"...) You suspect some other agenda? I think it has been stewing for while, no? But I think it has more to do with IRL stuff than forum stuff ... does that make it different somehow? I'm losing the significance of this ...


-----


At any rate, and this is not directed to you personally Z, but I am getting increasingly uncomfortable that this has been turning to what looks like a witch hunt, vilifying [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] when she has pronounced positive intention more than once, and she stated was biased and venting more than once. I didn't see much in my re-read that didn't register on the ranting/venting <----> pondering/theorizing scale. I don't even think she was trolling.

If it's offensive because she sounds decided but you think she's pretending to still be open, I guess I don't see it. And I suppose I am basing that on previous interactions as well, that although she can be "prickly", OA does contribute a great deal of value to many other discussions. I admire her intelligence, tenacity and input.

I think she is sincere in this thread. But clearly, there's more here you want to explore that is itchy for you. I guess we'll see what the rash is caused by ...

 

[uumlau]

Taking the eye off of OA for a moment, I would like to point out that, as an INTJ, I'm totally aware that it's possible for someone to both

1. Be an insulting jerk, and
2. Genuinely be looking for productive answers to perhaps ill-formed questions, such that
3. One can learn from one's misconceptions.

 

[Southern Kross]

Southern Kross, you explained it very well. Thank you for taking the time to do that. It definitely makes sense. It seems then that the situation I do not handle well / know how to deal with is when an Ne user has become entrenched in a particular Si data-set, and then stays entrenched in that for years (btw, this statement isn't directed towards people in this thread , I'm actually recalling a few Ne users from my past).

Something for me to think about. You present some good suggestions, so thank you.

Oh, it's always difficult to deal with that. In the INXP's case that's the Fi-Si loop. I don't know if I could offer advice on that, because it's like telling people how to get me to overcome my own blind spot. All I know is that the way out of it is to somehow get Ne into gear again. It's a sad thing to see a INXP without their Ne engaged. We live through our perception of possibilities and to lose that, is to lose our ability to dream outside our own experience - it's like we've effectively created a cage for our minds.

Edit: Also, it's curious... I think I tend to 'just listen', as I want to be supportive and figure they'll eventually figure it out/shift on their own, plus I don't want to push myself onto them or project myself onto them. But in a sense I'm still projecting, since I'm under the assumption they'll figure it out internally over time, and shift on their own. Because that's what I tend to do. So it hasn't occurred to me that they might actually want me to challenge their ideas or present alternatives. So by the time a long span of time has passed, I'm tired of hearing them in the same place, with the same vexations, so I check out.

I see. It's like what I said about the Ni desire/need to accept ideas (and to have others accept their ideas). Fi is the same with Feelings. It's hard though, isn't it? - when your natural way to support people, isn't always the kind of support they need.

Being Introverted, INFPs do often try to figure it out on their own. And the usual way we acquire Si data isn't through asking for it - we just absorb it from what we see around us. It's often only when we can't Ne ourselves out of the narrow box we've ended up in, that we ask for help. In OA's case she might feel that Fi-Si loop coming on and she's trying to re-engage her Ne.

 

[Starry]

However, what I can say with about 95% certainty is that she wouldn't be in here discussing anything if it was already "cake" or some sort of finished product. It might even be in the oven, but it's not cake yet. If it was me in here posting OA's posts, it would be because I wouldn't want to come to the conclusion I'm close to making. I'd want something that restores my faith in what I used to believe. I really don't see it as something with a sinister agenda, anything vindictive.

But, I could be naive or not seeing it or just plain incorrect. I can't claim to know for sure.

I totally understand you were not necessarily speaking directly to me...but I just want to make it clear so there is no misunderstanding... I do not have any problem with OA whatsoever. Certainly don't think she is sinister or vindictive. I've enjoyed her on the site. I just think it sends a conflicting/confusing message when you or SK or anyone says she is making a good-faith effort to reach-out to INFJs in order to better understand them. What I have seen for nearly 3 years now is INFJs responding to her message (this same message)...having their responses rejected...and then a few months later rinse and repeat. How long should this process continue? I'm seriously asking. Because the way she phrases things is hurtful and painful to read (yes, I went quote collecting). And if she is still 'cooking' things like you suspect...how much longer do you think this process will continue? How much longer should it be allowed to continue with not even a hint of change on her end? I'd also be interested in knowing how you would feel if there was an INFJ doing this same thing to INFPs for over 3 years. Perhaps it wouldn't bother the INFPs (the ENFPs probably wouldn't even notice)...but how would that make you feel?

 

[skylights]

Preface: I've edited this like 8 times. Sorry guys, the ideas, they keep evolving.

OMG haHA! Okay this is making me laugh...and seeing it in 'quoted-signature form' helps me understand your response (although I honestly wasn't attempting to bait you in any way - I was speaking from a place of total honesty.)

What's weird is that I'm unwittingly proving my own point in this thread. If the reaction in this thread was truly about 'abrasive' or 'thoughtless manner' (or criticism) then I'd be on every single INFJs ignore list because it doesn't get much more 'raw batter-ish' than me. I have said all kinds of 'half-baked' things in these threads yet have always been met with compassion, explanation - not resistance. Isn't there a clue in there somewhere? I feel the NFPs in this thread have attached to a story...and just keep retelling it over and over again as if this process will somehow make it true. What I'm saying is that I know this story very well...I just don't understand the continued attachment to it when there is a clear deviation in the storyline in this instance. Is it laziness? Is it that you all feel all bridges will be torn away if we acknowledge that one of them isn't safe to cross? I don't get it. But if you all want to keep saying that OA is presenting raw batter instead of cake...then have at it. But it doesn't change the fact that OA is serving-up cake. With frosting even.

You are telling the 'NFP story' and doing an amazing job of it. It is merely that you are using an irl example that is actually in conflict with the chapters you are currently highlighting and I feel this causes a great deal of confusion for those that are sincerely attempting to understand.



I don't know what OAs motivations are (or what she's serving up.) But I certainly do not believe she is 'bouncing half-baked ideas off people in order to receive feedback and subsequently sharpen her own perspective/understanding.' I believe she's quite confident in her assertions...and is highlighting a different part of our story...the chapter on how we...when we just know we are *right* and are determined to correct this error in everyone else's mind...we'll repeat ourselves over and over again until we feel heard. Which frankly I don't have a problem with this. I just feel uncomfortable when NFPs are attempting to say this is the 'raw batter phase'. I don't get the sense she believes all INFJs suck. But I feel they are probably 'guilty' until they prove themselves innocent in her mind. And yah...that's about it. It's cake.

I don't really disagree with you.

My conception of the "NFP story" is this: OA answered the prompt; she was making a contribution within fair bounds of the posed request. No, it wasn't friendly, and yes, the tone was kind of self-serving, but she did provide genuine information to work with, and that information was never addressed in the way the original premise of the thread suggested it would be. It was startling and somewhat ironic that the conversation turned almost immediately into what was fair or not fair to blame INFJs for, instead of what INFJs do that drives INFPs crazy. So, IMO, the "NFP story" is simply that the original premise had been departed from completely as of OA's list.

It almost seems like that post created a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. It was clearly the point where a major disconnect occurred, like some weird kind of stalemate where INFJs wouldn't touch her ideas because they're presented in too offensive a format, but all it would take for her format to become less offensive would be someone touching those ideas - all that's needed is just one INFJ to shatter the dystopian paradigm.

It reminds me of something a Fe user explained once (sorry, I can't remember who!) about needing a "safe space" for exchange of personal information - how harmony was a prerequisite to sharing, not an assumed point of conclusion. Perhaps the stalemate occurred because the FJ safe sharing space was immediately shut down by that threat of attack - but it's unfortunate because what OA needed to reestablish harmony was for an FJ to reach out.

 

[uumlau]

... the juice ain't worth the squeezin' ...

but if you're gonna be an insulting jerk with misconceptions, at least cop to it, I believe is the complaint. Meanwhile I think the questions were answered about as well as anyone could possibly expect. Certainly there is evidence of sincere and diligent effort.

My point is that "copping to it" isn't exactly an option. For the most part, neither "side" (and I suspect there are more than two sides to this discussion) is trying to be deliberately provocative. Just as much the INFJs don't want to admit "regret" when there is nothing causal to regret, neither do the NFPs want to admit that they're trying to ruffle NFJ feathers, either.

It reminds me of the stereotypical punks that want "respect", and they'll "respect" you only if you "respect" them first. That just ain't how it works. Those who go through life being respectful of others will by and large be respected. In other words, one shouldn't demand any sort of capitulation on the part of others in order to require one's own admissions/capitulations, but rather one should simply forgive any perceived insults and continue forward with productive discussion.

It's amazing how much productive things can be achieved once people stop worrying about whose fault it was that some things went wrong along the way. It's kind of a corollary to Reagan's, "There is no limit to what you can accomplish if you don't care who gets the credit."

 

[Z Buck McFate]

@bold: Well, most of us will never tell you anything negative if you don't invite us to, because we don't want any hurt feelings. It would breech personal values of a sort, sort of the INFP code I guess? So, if you eye-rolled on it, it does make me feel sad you see that as something disingenuous. We really see it as permission to engage at a deeper level with less protocol.

I don’t understand how this applies to what I wrote, which makes me think maybe you misinterpreted it. I was asking if any other FJs also had the same reaction to the way people kept bringing up “Well, it *is* a thread asking INFPs for their opinion.” Once the thread turned into something else, it turned into something else and it seemed like a moot point to me (aka: ‘raw batter’).

Maybe a better way of saying ‘raw batter’ is this: it’s the difference between going shopping and (1) grabbing absolutely everything that looks ‘cool’ to try on in fitting room (2) or making sure that everything which initially looks really cool is in the ballpark of the correct size and/or price range before bringing it to the fitting room. It seems like Pe’ers have a hard time figuring that stuff out BEFORE they bring it into the actual fitting room….like they won’t figure out that size 2 bikini isn’t going to fit on a size 12 frame until they get in there with it. But Pi’ers have a very strict “only 2 items in fitting room at a time” limit (‘fitting room’= working something out aloud, externally), and so we are constantly always already scanning for cues that something isn’t going to work- so we see a size 2 bikini and instantly see that it won’t work.

And just because Pi’ers are ‘presenting’ it doesn’t mean that it is ‘finished conclusion’….it just means “this is as finished as I can get something on my own.” We could grab the size 12 bikini to try and find it doesn’t work either….the whole point here is that we do more of this work internally so that there’s less dragging things back and forth out of the dressing room and back to the rack <- that is EXHAUSTING to us (least Se), we try to cut as much of that extra work off at the pass as possible by checking our internal framework (“okay wait, this won’t work because I’m not size 2”) and it’s hard to understand when other types don’t do this as well. Imagine being the person who has to put stuff back- and someone walks up to the dressing room with a size 2 dress and a size 16 pair of pants when they ‘seem’ around a size 8. It’s like, “Really? Seriously? You’re making this extra work for me because you really can’t already tell why this isn’t going to work?”

I suspect it’s very much like that to deal with Pi’ers when they can’t take in all the immediate judgment- like “Really? Seriously? You can’t see why what I’m saying works better?” <- Even I get to feeling like that with really heavy J types.


And to the rest of your post: there is a big difference between doubting someone’s sincerity/motivations and doubting something *is* what someone is saying it is. If it’s about a person’s feelings- then yes, content should be treated like it is what they’re saying it is. But that’s precisely why that shouldn’t be mixed with supposedly ‘objective’ theory. There is a huge difference (at least in my mind) between doubting someone’s sincerity and simply doubting what they’re saying (not about their intentions…but about the ‘theory’ they are presenting) is the Truth.

We’re saying there are traps in what OA has presented: we’re not implying there’s anything intentional about them, we’re simply trying to point out they’re there. It seemed like her reaction to this was to say “I’ve stated what my intentions are, it was not my intention to trap you…..therefore if you say there are traps, you are questioning my sincerity.” That in itself is a trap; it’s built on the premise that ‘traps’ can only exist if they are intentional- which isn’t the case. I have explicitly stated I don’t doubt her sincerity and that I don’t think she’s doing it on purpose, and this whole stupid thing originates on premises built on not understanding the other types’ priorities (and a huge problem, specifically with OA, is that she seems to have built a very elaborate ‘understanding’ which doesn’t look like understanding at all from our pov…..and we’re damned if we do/damned if we don’t by a lot of things in her approach). Yet it keeps coming back to “It looks like you’re questioning her sincerity, because she says there are not traps there and you don’t believe her.” I don’t even know what to do with that because it seems to me to so clearly fold in on itself, I don’t understand what isn’t ‘clear’ about this.

I do think there’s more ‘personal agenda’ in what OA is posting than she’s putting forth; but that is NOT the same thing as saying I believe there’s anything intentional, malevolent, sneaky or otherwise genuinely questionable in character about her, it is not asserting that she is “pretending” anything. ‘Personal agenda’ = ‘needing to hear something to heal a personal wound’. There’s some serious misfiring here that’s going off in this regard.

I kinda feel like I’m being blasted with more Ne here (there are too many tangents, not enough anchors). All I wanted to do with this morning’s comments was to say “Starry is not imagining this.” Before responding to anything else, I’m going to get back to Southern Kross’s post.

I do want to ask though, SK, specifically which parenthetical phrase you are referring to with this:

Could you elaborate on what you said in brackets? It sounds like a pretty interesting insight but it's not something I've heard before. I don't think it deserves to be glossed over.

 

[sorenx7]

You probably did not intend for this to be funny but still.

I often find myself thinking, "Am I speaking English?"

But it's xNFPs in general I have this issue with, and I love em to death, my favorite people in the world, but the disconnect seems to be so serious that they're in one dimension and I'm in another galaxy. Lovely...

Thanks. I would gladly respond to that. However, if I said I meant for it to be funny, that would be interpreted to mean I didn't mean for it to be funny. If I said I didn't mean for it to be funny, that would be interpreted to mean I did intend for it to be funny. That's kind of how this thread flows now. But if you got it (and it looks like you did,) at least I did get through to one person.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I just think it sends a conflicting/confusing message when you or SK or anyone says she is making a good-faith effort to reach-out to INFJs in order to better understand them.

I guess I'm just naive then? I didn't think it was in bad faith? I still do believe it's a good faith effort.

What I have seen for nearly 3 years now is INFJs responding to her message (this same message)...having their responses rejected...and then a few months later rinse and repeat.

I'd have to go back a ways to respond to that. Although I feel like OA has become more jaded over that time, than less.

And if she is still 'cooking' things like you suspect...how much longer do you think this process will continue? How much longer should it be allowed to continue with not even a hint of change on her end?

Well, if it's an Fi - Si loop thingie ... we can get stuck in them for years. Years and years and years. We need to use Ne to break free. Ne would encourage us to collect more data, seek out new options, new solutions.

I'd also be interested in knowing how you would feel if there was an INFJ doing this same thing to INFPs for over 3 years. Perhaps it wouldn't bother the INFPs (the ENFPs probably wouldn't even notice)...but how would that make you feel?

Well, if someone was using OA's approach it wouldn't bother me at all, since I can appreciate what they are looking for, what they need.

If it was an INFJ coming into threads and repeatedly using their attack mode on me personally, it would be more challenging.

My conception of the "NFP story" is this: OA answered the prompt; she was making a contribution within fair bounds of the posed request. No, it wasn't friendly, and yes, the tone was kind of self-serving, but she did provide genuine information to work with, and that information was never addressed in the way the original premise of the thread suggested it would be. It was startling and somewhat ironic that the conversation turned almost immediately into what was fair or not fair to blame INFJs for, instead of what INFJs do that drives INFPs crazy. So, IMO, the "NFP story" is simply that the original premise had been departed from completely as of OA's list.

That's how I see it too.

It reminds me of something a Fe user explained once (sorry, I can't remember who!) about needing a "safe space" for exchange of personal information - how harmony was a prerequisite to sharing, not an assumed point of conclusion. Perhaps the stalemate occurred because the FJ safe sharing space was immediately shut down by that threat of attack - but it's unfortunate because what OA needed to reestablish harmony was for an FJ to reach out.

Agreed. And thanks for that, it's a great reminder. I'm making a Cliff Notes version of all of this stuff, recalling all of the previous threads too. Maybe I'll post all my learnings later.

I don’t understand how this applies to what I wrote, which makes me think maybe you misinterpreted it. I was asking if any other FJs also had the same reaction to the way people kept bringing up “Well, it *is* a thread asking INFPs for their opinion.” Once the thread turned into something else, it turned into something else and it seemed like a moot point to me (aka: ‘raw batter’).

No I don't think I misunderstood. But I meant that if all other INFP's knew that the reaction to that comment was an eye-roll, it would be disheartening.

re raw batter and bikinis: loved all that, thanks.

We’re saying there are traps in what OA has presented: we’re not implying there’s anything intentional about them, we’re simply trying to point out they’re there. It seemed like her reaction to this was to say “I’ve stated what my intentions are, it was not my intention to trap you…..therefore if you say there are traps, you are questioning my sincerity.” That in itself is a trap; it’s built on the premise that ‘traps’ can only exist if they are intentional- which isn’t the case. I have explicitly stated I don’t doubt her sincerity and that I don’t think she’s doing it on purpose, and this whole stupid thing originates on premises built on not understanding the other types’ priorities (and a huge problem, specifically with OA, is that she seems to have built a very elaborate ‘understanding’ which doesn’t look like understanding at all from our pov…..and we’re damned if we do/damned if we don’t by a lot of things in her approach). Yet it keeps coming back to “It looks like you’re questioning her sincerity, because she says there are not traps there and you don’t believe her.” I don’t even know what to do with that because it seems to me to so clearly fold in on itself, I don’t understand what isn’t ‘clear’ about this.

Ok, I see what you are saying, and to be honest, it hadn't occurred to me to think about it like this at all. Forgive me for not totally getting this though, but what is the danger of the trap here? What threat does it pose? What are you getting trapped in? That if you say, "Yes some INFJ's are like that" it's like saying you are like that too? Forgive my obtuseness here ... I am wondering what you see as the outcome to exploring the list in, for example, the INTJ style like uumlau did.

And did you see it like this coming in, or is this just revealing itself as we go along? Is it feeling wary of being trapped in some way you can't foresee?

I do think there’s more ‘personal agenda’ in what OA is posting than she’s putting forth; but that is NOT the same thing as saying I believe there’s anything intentional, malevolent, sneaky or otherwise genuinely questionable in character about her, it is not asserting that she is “pretending” anything. ‘Personal agenda’ = ‘needing to hear something to heal a personal wound’. There’s some serious misfiring here that’s going off in this regard.

Can you explain the misfiring more?

I kinda feel like I’m being blasted with more Ne here (there are too many tangents, not enough anchors). All I wanted to do with this morning’s comments was to say “Starry is not imagining this.”

Sorry to bombard you, all I can shoot out are tangents when I have no idea what the core issue is. I am just trying to narrow it down.

 

[Society]

@skylights -- what I'm hearing is that INFJs have reached out, and it hasn't made any difference, that for some reason OA keeps bringing her same axe to grind

i don't know if anyone else noticed, but [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] hasn't actually posted here in over a week. others have being trying to clarify how they interpret what she said, but she hasn't actually being here for awhile, axe or no axe.

perhaps to some extent because people keep shortening her nickname when referring to her, making the act of mentioning a bit more deliberate then simply adding a "@", and making the act of site-googling when she is referred to a bit much... two-word nicknames will do that to you.

 

[Standuble]

i don't know if anyone else noticed, but [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] hasn't actually posted here in over a week. others have being trying to clarify how they interpret what she said, but she hasn't actually being here for awhile, axe or no axe.

perhaps to some extent because people keep shortening her nickname when referring to her, making the act of mentioning a bit more deliberate then simply adding a "@", and making the act of site-googling when she is referred to a bit much... two-word nicknames will do that to you.

I think she was just being sensible. This thread has grown out of control and some of the posters are nearing fanaticism and hysteria (I think I'm getting there too!) I can't speak for other INFPs or OrangeAppled's reasons but I personally would quickly get sick of having to explain my point over and over and continuously have to respond to posters especially if I feel everything's already been said. This thread has been ongoing continuously with rehashing the norm of the day and there is seemingly no light at the end of the tunnel. How long do you wait after becoming fed up before moving on to new pastures, especially when the Fi no longer values this and there are other things to do with your time? If they were her reasons then I commend her for it. She pursued the only option she could under the circumstances you people forced on her. But her reasons are her own, I can only speculate but that's what I would have been thinking if I had been in the same position.

I dare not read all this thread in case my eyes go square and my brain pops out so I'm in no position to say but I think the first issue was when they essentially made this an ad hominem argument rather than strictly sticking to the addressing of the points that were mentioned. If I made a list of statements I would not necessarily want my motives for stating them questioned or myself "reasoned" with for doing so. That is a pet peeve of mine: Fe attempting to reason with facets of Fi it seemingly cannot comprehend. If that happened to me I would feel nervous about posting because it would be a detraction against me and a derailment from the discussion I wanted to have. I would eventually feel very uncomfortable and leave the forum for months and hope the thread has died down before I could feel comfortable posting and showing my face again. Such a deviation from formal logic in my opinion, especially when its something many of your number apparently pride themselves on. Heh, so much for INFJs and Ti eh?

I personally ask that you guys leave OrangeAppled alone. Perhaps that's what she wants, perhaps not as her mind is her own. Stick to addressing the points raised, finding evidence to support or debunk them accordingly. Stop treating her like she was wrong to do what she did. Leave her be as you guys could fall into the realms of bullying.

 

[sorenx7]

I think she was just being sensible. This thread has grown out of control and some of the posters are nearing fanaticism and hysteria (I think I'm getting there too!) I can't speak for other INFPs or OrangeAppled's reasons but I personally would quickly get sick of having to explain my point over and over and continuously have to respond to posters especially if I feel everything's already been said. This thread has been ongoing continuously with rehashing the norm of the day and there is seemingly no light at the end of the tunnel. How long do you wait after becoming fed up before moving on to new pastures, especially when the Fi no longer values this and there are other things to do with your time? If they were her reasons then I commend her for it. She pursued the only option she could under the circumstances you people forced on her. But her reasons are her own, I can only speculate but that's what I would have been thinking if I had been in the same position.

I dare not read all this thread in case my eyes go square and my brain pops out so I'm in no position to say but I think the first issue was when they essentially made this an ad hominem argument rather than strictly sticking to the addressing of the points that were mentioned. If I made a list of statements I would not necessarily want my motives for stating them questioned or myself "reasoned" with for doing so. That is a pet peeve of mine: Fe attempting to reason with facets of Fi it seemingly cannot comprehend. If that happened to me I would feel nervous about posting because it would be a detraction against me and a derailment from the discussion I wanted to have. I would eventually feel very uncomfortable and leave the forum for months and hope the thread has died down before I could feel comfortable posting and showing my face again. Such a deviation from formal logic in my opinion, especially when its something many of your number apparently pride themselves on. Heh, so much for INFJs and Ti eh?

I personally ask that you guys leave OrangeAppled alone. Perhaps that's what she wants, perhaps not as her mind is her own. Stick to addressing the points raised, finding evidence to support or debunk them accordingly. Stop treating her like she was wrong to do what she did. Leave her be as you guys could fall into the realms of bullying.

I totally agree with this. I also ask that OrangeAppled be left alone. In my opinion, if this thread continues with the same tone, it will be nothing but harassment. I suspect she has better things to do than to come here and be insulted further. I can't speak for her, but I agree with Standuble that if I were in the same position, I'd probably wait months before returning (if at all.)

 

[uumlau]

This is not the purpose of the discussion, though.

It is, though it's a meta-purpose, not the explicit purpose.

The purpose of the discussion is to point out exactly where the communications break down.

OK, let's stipulate that.

It would be great if OA could cop to having a personal agenda.

^^^ This is the source of the communications break down. (Well, the INFJ half, anyway. The INFP half is keeping the discussion at a fairly raw level - I like the "batter" analogy - because it's how they keep things honest. Other Fi types need that "raw" information in order to do the Fi thing of putting themselves subjectively in the other person's shoes. Problem is that INFJs react to that kind of "raw" information badly, just as INFPs react badly to the "fully-baked" statements of the INFJs, because the INFJs baked the wrong cake, from their perspective.)

I have copped to several things for the sake of appeasement and learned about one thing I hadn't even known existed and done a good bit of reflection to see if I do it, thought about why someone might do it, etc. Not so much about blame as about responsibility --i.e., yes, I do bring this up with the intention of healing a personal matter that won't leave me alone -- it doesn't have to do with INFJs as a whole, but actually has to do with a personal matter that won't leave me alone -- sorry if I have caused strife in this way. I wasn't fully aware that I was doing this, but now that you've pointed it out, I see it and I cop to it. Kind of thing.

Yes, this is a good thing.

Now, as to why asking someone else to cop to <whatever> is a source of communications break down, the problem is that it only works if that someone else understands what they did wrong and why it was wrong. Asking someone to cop to what you think they did wrong is unproductive. For one thing, you might be entirely wrong about what they did wrong. I understand that there might be a valuable lesson that you are trying to convey to that other person, but in all likelihood, unless it's a really obvious moral point, the lesson that you learned and think applies to the other person may not actually apply. It's up to the other person to figure out what the problem is.

That's the only way it works. And yeah, sometimes it takes a really long time for the other person to figure it out - sometimes even never. But when they figure it out, rest assured they'll learn something just as you did from doing the same. It just may not be what you originally thought.

skylights -- what I'm hearing is that INFJs have reached out, and it hasn't made any difference, that for some reason OA keeps bringing her same axe to grind, such that as soon as INFJs see her coming, they know what the deal is -- they will be accused of certain things, and nothing anyone says will give her any relief, or no matter what they admit to or apologize for, it won't be enough. "Omg, please, not this again."

And what kind of relief, do you imagine, is provided by saying she should cop to having a personal agenda?

I mean, I'm an INTJ and I know better than to try and "solve" a person's problems by actually offering "solutions," when they really only want me to listen. There is a time for offering solutions (and offering them gently), after listening. I suspect INFJs tend to skip to the solutions part before the INFPs are ready.

I agree with the "omg" bit: it often seems to me that not only do people enter these threads with a chip on the shoulder, it's not merely a chip, but a 6 foot long 2x4, and they end up whacking each other upside the head as they turn to respond to each others' remarks.

INFJs, I believe, want her to deal with her stuff for once and for all and get over it, maybe. That's my take. Rather than continue to drag it into discussions that could otherwise be productive, are properly introduced as topics, and have other people wanting or willing to participate who don't have a personal agenda and can discuss without heat or accusation.

Yep, and this is why these threads blow up. Note how that INFJ desire to say "get over it" to an INFP is kind of like going up to a beggar and saying "get a job." Yeah, that'd solve the problem, in theory, but it isn't that easy, and it's pretty sure to start a fight.

(As if! ) but that's I believe what the issue is -- that someone keeps hauling in the Trojan horse under someone else's banner, and throwing a stick in the spokes, because they are not dealing with their issues but somehow expect other people to fix it, when other people have tried and are now tired of trying.

So stop trying to "fix it."

I'm being totally serious, here. That's my advice to the INFJ side. There's nothing to fix, at least not in the direct INFJ way.

Fi is very non-mechanical in its workings. My sig is an Fi analogy: Fi is the cat. The analogy can be extended: cats are not dogs. You can command a dog in a way that you simply cannot command a cat. To get along with a cat, you just sit there and let the cat approach you, and gradually let the cat get comfortable with you. The dog doesn't need time to get comfortable with you, it will bound up to you barking and aggressively jump up on you and sniff you out. You don't treat a cat like a dog - the cat wants gentle petting and cuddles, but the dog enjoys rougher petting and direct play. If the dog does something it knows is wrong, it immediately acts contrite - to the point it starts apologizing the moment you walk in the door, and you realize you need to start looking for what the dog did wrong. If the cat does something it knows is wrong, it will spend barely a moment looking uncomfortable and continue on as if nothing at all ever happened. The dog will just come up and lick your face because you're there. The cat will scratch you just because you got in its personal space before it was ready to acknowledge you.

Sorry for the mixed metaphors and I could be wrong, but that seems to me where we're at, so to speak.

Hey, I pay mixed metaphors in kind, as you can see.

P.S. Who you callin' a punk?

Not you, for sure. I appreciate your honesty.

 

[Eilonwy]

Well, if someone was using OA's approach it wouldn't bother me at all, since I can appreciate what they are looking for, what they need.

If it was an INFJ coming into threads and repeatedly using their attack mode on me personally, it would be more challenging.

I was trying to say what @PeaceBaby said in the quote above, but I was saying it badly (with my examples about my post about the Snowflake crown and the Israeli thing with @Southern Kross). INFJs were saying that they felt attacked and INFPs didn't seem to be hearing that (because, to INFPs, that wasn't their attack mode). I was trying, poorly, to show that it can blow up both ways because INFPs can feel attacked by stuff that isn't what we consider to be our attack mode. It was an attempt to show that both sides have their blind spots so we both need to be a little more thoughtful rather than reactive.

I also want to clarify that my communication suggestions were up for debate and not "this is what we must do to communicate". Also, I'm not trying to force my way of communication on anybody, because that wasn't the way I would naturally communicate, either. Since we all seem to be going round and round with the same arguments, I thought that making both side's communication simpler might help make some headway. I also thought that acknowledging that we hurt each other's feelings might help make some headway. I could be very wrong.

I agree with something that PeaceBaby said as an aside in one of her posts--that INFJs don't always have good boundaries. And that ties in to what @uumlau just said above, that INFJs should stop trying to "fix it". I know that I feel compelled to FIX what I see as problems, especially in the area of relationships between people. In the process, I tend to lower or flex my boundaries and then I feel hurt. What I've learned, to some extent (because if I had learned it well, I probably wouldn't have posted in this thread at all), is that sometimes it's best to stay out of it, even when someone is asking for my input. It may not be my place to fix it, I might not be seeing the correct problem to fix, I might not have the tools to fix it, I might not have all the information and I'm coming to incorrect conclusions because of that, etc. If I've tried to fix it and it doesn't seem to be getting fixed, sometimes the best thing is for me to walk away because I might be making it worse, rather than better. It's not always my duty to stay to the bitter end and FIX it. That's where the boundaries come in. If someone asks me to be vulnerable in a certain way, and I'm uncomfortable being vulnerable in that way, then, no matter what that person says or what buttons they push, I should decide for myself whether to stand firm with my boundary, or if I'm willing to flex just a bit. I should not let myself be talked into it for the sake of learning or helping or because of my own compulsion to fix it. Some people walked away when they felt their boundaries being violated, others flexed too much and got really hurt and felt manipulated, some stayed but didn't participate in the areas in which they felt uncomfortable participating. We have to take some responsibility for our choices, too. That doesn't mean that the other party isn't responsible at all, but that we do have some choice in the matter, too.

 

[uumlau]

[MENTION=5723]Tiltyred[/MENTION]: good synopsis. It reads just like INTJ and INTP complaints about each other, from the INTJ side.

So extending the INTP/INTJ analogy, the INFP retort will be:

"I was trying to figure out whether I'd make spaghetti with marinara sauce or chicken parmesan or pasta with pesto. But no, you have to assume spaghetti because all you can see is the noodles and the tomato sauce, which I may or may not use."

My advice is to let them be themselves. It's amazing how likeable people can be when you decide that you won't let their quirks annoy you. Yeah, I know, this is e9 advice, which doesn't work for everyone.

And there's something to be learned from Mark Twain: "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years." We don't always know what we think we know. Sometimes it's US that needs the time to understand the other person, that the problem isn't always that the other person doesn't understand us. Humility in this regard works in both directions, for all types, of all ages.

 

[Eilonwy]

To use your analogy, [MENTION=5723]Tiltyred[/MENTION], I think what [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION] might be trying to point out is that, perhaps, instead of the INFJ insisting that it's called spaghetti when the INFP is saying that it isn't, the INFJ should get out of the kitchen until the INFP finds that magazine and comes to the conclusion that it's maybe mostly spaghetti, and then maybe both the INFJ and the INFP can have a nice meal together.

And, I think, he's also trying to point out that, even though the INFJ sees all the ingredients for spaghetti, there's the possibility that the INFP is making some foreign dish that the INFJ has never heard of, that happens to use all the ingredients of spaghetti, plus maybe some ingredients that haven't been taken out of the refrigerator or cupboard yet. The unseen ingredients might make this a different dish.


ETA: [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION] beat me to a response. And sorry for talking for you, uumlau.

 

[uumlau]

I totally see this and agree that it's probably the best course.
I'm just saying, it's not unreasonable for the INFJ to at least point to the magazine wrack after repeated spaghetti incidences, where what could be any sort of a dish with noodles and sauce repeatedly comes to the table looking and tasting like spaghetti.

Yeah, and that's a quirk that the INFP will have to tolerate from you.

There is a similar interplay between myself and my ENFP gf, where we each let each other be ourselves, which includes the occasional snarky remarks along these lines (that aren't intended to be hurtful).

 

[Eilonwy]

[MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION] is just too fast for me.

[MENTION=5723]Tiltyred[/MENTION], believe me, it's not that I don't know how frustrating it is to have my POV not even acknowledged or considered, especially if it turns out to be spaghetti all along. And I'm not saying that the INFJ can't ever say that it sure looks like spaghetti to me. But another point I got from uumlau's post is, how important is it, really, that the INFP admits that it's spaghetti, in the big scheme of things? Now, maybe if we were talking nuclear weapons, it might be important. So, we have to decide what our priorities are in each situation. Is it worth a big, on-going argument to have it proven to be spaghetti? Maybe for some it is, but the question needs to be considered--by both sides. When does it become so detrimental to everyone involved that it just needs to be let go and walked away from?

And, yes, it would be nice to hear that sometimes that INFJ seems to know her cooking, so maybe it is just spaghetti after all. Also, I would guess that the INFP would like to hear that she seems to cook a good dish, whatever it turns out to be called.

 

[iwakar]

I have seen several members in this discussion over the previous years and months repeatedly reinsert themselves into discussions regarding INFJs --a type they have publicly admitted to having personal issues with. These repeated reinsertions look less and less like attempts to "understand better" and more and more like opportunities to wax righteously.

What a waste and a bore.

 

[Eilonwy]

The latest spaghetti post made me laugh!

Well, if you live with an unreasonable INFP who keeps messing up the kitchen and won't clean up after herself, what choices do you have? If you've tried and tried to get her to see reason and you still end up bathed in sauce, then maybe it's just time to leave the relationship completely. If your point isn't being heard and you never get hamburger, then why keep beating yourself up and getting all stressed out? I don't believe it's possible to force someone to act the way we want them to, so it seems to me that it's become an exercise in futility. In that case, you either live with it, find a different way to approach it, or you leave. (I don't see any other options, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any, so, if there are other options, let me know.) If you're not married/committed to the INFP and have no obligations to stay, why stay? Find INFPs who don't mess up the kitchen or who at least clean up after themselves.

And I know that we're kind of stuck here in our little spaceship of a forum, where it's difficult to completely avoid anyone who gets on your nerves, so the aggravation keeps resurfacing. I'm not ignoring or denying that at all. I have a very difficult time ignoring the threads or posts that push my buttons or hit me where I live. I feel the need to defend myself when I feel attacked. But sometimes the best way to defend yourself is to ignore the attack. In your (Tilty) first post in this thread you told INFJs to just stay out of the thread, stop participating in it, and I think that was good advice at that point in time. Even if others call it running away, or in denial, or cowardly, or whatever, because they want to keep engaging, there comes a time to stick to your own boundaries and walk away if it's that contentious. Then you just have to hope that there are people who will see, from your actions, that you do bathe regularly.

ETA: To address your latest point: As far as I know we can only ask that the issue not come up again, but we can't stop someone from posting unless they break the rules. So we have to learn to live with that if they refuse to do what we ask.

ETA2: I am in no way calling OA, or any particular INFP, unreasonable, since I can see how that could be assumed from the use of the illustration above. This is why I don't like to generalize, because it lends itself to misinterpretation. Unfortunately, generalizing is sometimes necessary.

I can only hope that no INFPs or INFJs were injured during this exchange. <------humor