Incels.

[Coriolis]

The theory doesn't seem all that far-fetched to me: "Because victimhood culture now confers the highest moral status on victims, Campbell and Manning argue that it “increases the incentive to publicize grievances.” Injured and offended parties who might once have thrown a punch or filed a law suit, now appeal for support on social media."

Should the higher moral status go to the perpetrators of assaults and other crimes? Do you consider violence and litigation better approaches than seeking social support?

It wasn't; it was merely an example of praise/ glorification being offered to someone who has endured a rather negative experience. As a trend I thought this was common enough to the point that I was rather surprised to read this comment here:

Really? Where do you draw the line between support and reassurance, and praise/glorification? Looked to me like "someone who has endured a rather negative experience [interesting euphemism for rape]" being doubted and pressured, at least the part about Marie. Overall, the article is basically a whodunit about cops working together to catch a serial rapist. I wonder if it is coincidental that so many of the law enforcement officers referenced were female.

Regardless, the comment was in reference to the social responses from other people; always expecting people to provide the 'proper response' to a negative experience that conveys both their understanding and heartfelt sympathy is bound to lead to disappointment sooner or later. People can keep complaining about the people that they've decided to confide in, or they can move on elsewhere and find better friends.

When those people are law enforcement officials, medical providers, or even foster parents, understanding and sympathy are reasonable to expect.

It's why I really don't understand why PUA theory gets such a bad rep -- just like there's 'strategies' or behaviors that make you more appealing at a job interview, so too are their 'strategies' or behaviors that can increase your chances for sex. It just so happened that lots of these methods came quite naturally to me and I never needed a 'guide' to teach me them.

It's just like anything else. If PUA theory gets you what you want, then I suppose it makes sense to follow it. It will get you the attention of someone who also buys into that approach to relationships. If most people you encounter are put off by it, though, you will have to content yourself with the limited pool who are not, or alter your approach.

I'm not following all these pill references, but to me it seems most counter intuitive that certain methods/ behaviors/ forms of preparation could help for a job interview, but then all of a sudden no method/ behavior/ form of preparation of any kind can help when trying to acquire sex. For an example, it is my understanding that, simple things like making an effort to dress well and looking presentable, can go a long way with both dates and interviews, even if they don't offer guarantees.

Well, if you view sex/relationships as a professional or economic interaction governed by contracts and compensated financially, I can see where you would apply the same approach to it as you do when applying for a job.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Well, if you view sex/relationships as a professional or economic interaction governed by contracts and compensated financially, I can see where you would apply the same approach to it as you do when applying for a job.

I'd like to clarify that I made the analogy only in the sense that, as an introvert, it's a lot of effort, and no particular outcome is guaranteed. You put yourself out there, and you might not get anything back.

 

[Coriolis]

I'd like to clarify that I made the analogy only in the sense that, as an introvert, it's a lot of effort, and no particular outcome is guaranteed. You put yourself out there, and you might not get anything back.

True - the situations bear those similarities. In applying for jobs, however, duties and required qualifications should be clearly described, and applicants judged on their own merits against objective criteria. Granted, the process if often much more subjective than that, but most dating scenarios are far moreso without even the pretense of objectivity and clear requirements.

People will take different approaches, too. In applying for jobs, I will do everything I can to stack the deck in my favor, even if it means presenting myself differently from how I usually am (e.g. dressing more formally, overselling myself), just to get my foot in the door. I trust that, once hired and demonstrating that I am doing a good job, it won't be held against me if I revert to e.g. a less formal appearance. In dating situations, I often do the opposite, and show someone my worst qualities. If those are going to drive someone away eventually, I prefer it happen as soon as possible so we can both cut our losses and move on.

Perhaps the difference lies in that I need a job more than I need a date.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

True - the situations bear those similarities. In applying for jobs, however, duties and required qualifications should be clearly described, and applicants judged on their own merits against objective criteria. Granted, the process if often much more subjective than that, but most dating scenarios are far moreso without even the pretense of objectivity and clear requirements.

People will take different approaches, too. In applying for jobs, I will do everything I can to stack the deck in my favor, even if it means presenting myself differently from how I usually am (e.g. dressing more formally, overselling myself), just to get my foot in the door. I trust that, once hired and demonstrating that I am doing a good job, it won't be held against me if I revert to e.g. a less formal appearance. .

Yes... that's definitely a good approach to that scenario.

 

[Sacrophagus]

In dating situations, I often do the opposite, and show someone my worst qualities. If those are going to drive someone away eventually, I prefer it happen as soon as possible so we can both cut our losses and move on.

How do you go about that? That way of thinking seems to me like unripe NTJ thinking.

One of the flaws of that same thinking is that we will not choose to navigate a terrain unless we have full knowledge of every corner. Feeling control of the process in itself stems from our fear of surprises we can't or don't want to deal with. That same subconscious fear led me to put a woman I dated through cunningly devised tests for the sole purpose of revealing her in situations that might or might never happen. On the outside, it looked like a confident and well-intentioned game so that both of us can cut our losses until I realized there's something fucked up with that.

I prefer to be authentic and let the circumstances reveal them. That is fair.

We also tend to neglect the human part. Someone who loves you and knows you well might look at your worst qualities as benign eccentricities, if you give them the chance to love you, that is. In the natural course, the annoyance of today might look adorable tomorrow.
The idea that how actions are perceived is set in stone is wrong. The human mind does not simply work that way.


This not only works in relationships, but also in business, politics, and many fields that incorporate the human element. Things that were refused yesterday, are today Monnaie courante, and so on.

This, is having a real edge.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

But female butts are a gift from the gods

 

[Tilt]

Incels just think way too much and take themselves and life too seriously. Living your own life and treating others kindly without expectation opens up social opportunities which can eventually lead to sex.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I tend to think most incels problems are psychological rather than physical, but guys, do you think someone like eggman honestly has a realistic chance at finding love? Would any ladies ever give this guy a real shot? Do you think some people truly are doomed to be forever alone no matter how great their personalities? I’m not being rhetorical, I’m looking for genuine answers. Are some people simply holding a poor hand of cards, genetically speaking? A lot of people say they’d date anyone if their personalities were good, but would anyone who says this sort of platitude seriously consider giving someone like this the time of day?

Reference: Eggman - Incel Wiki

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I tend to think most incels problems are psychological rather than physical, but guys, do you think someone like eggman honestly has a realistic chance at finding love? Would any ladies ever give this guy a real shot? Do you think some people truly are doomed to be forever alone no matter how great their personalities? I’m not being rhetorical, I’m looking for genuine answers. Are some people simply holding a poor hand of cards, genetically speaking?

Reference: Eggman - Incel Wiki

I dunno, he kind of looks like a young Ben Franklin, and he was evidently quite the ladies man.

And, while I don't mean to suggest that he's ever been an incel, given that height is allegedly an issue for a lot of women, there's also this that's worth pointing out:

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I dunno, he kind of looks like a young Ben Franklin, and he was evidently quite the ladies man.

And, while I don't mean to suggest that he's ever been an incel, given that height is allegedly an issue for a lot of women, there's also this that's worth pointing out:

Dinklage is actually a very handsome guy though, by many women’s standards. He is also very charismatic. However if he looked the way Tyrion is depicted in the books, would as many women find him attractive?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Dinklage is actually a very handsome guy though, by many women’s standards. He is also very charismatic.

I mean, that's certainly true.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Honesty the thought of drawing a bad psychological card is more depressing than having terrible looks.

I speak partly from personal experience, as a guy who’s received compliments from random women on my looks whilst struggling with low self esteem and some spergy personality traits. Luckily I’ve learned some of those traits can be hacked and spun into assets rather than deficits. A little self deprecation goes a long way as long as we don’t cross into the territory of utter self loathing. I know the “love yourself” mantra may seem a little cliche and narcissistic, but if we can’t love ourselves, warts and all, it’s very easy to direct that hatred out at the world once it’s filled out souls and begins to burst from the seams.

 

[rav3n]

IMO, acceptance is more important than loving yourself since it provides people with the opportunity to work with their negative traits and play to their strengths. Another aspect is giving yourself permission to mess up some of the time, since most decisions aren't devastating. My definition of confidence is resilience, not the cockadoodle strut shit. Once you know you can recover from almost anything in daily life, you're a lot less risk averse. Incels appear to suffer greatly from an unhealthy level of risk aversion which is why the confidence aspect was mentioned.

 

[Coriolis]

How do you go about that? That way of thinking seems to me like unripe NTJ thinking.

One of the flaws of that same thinking is that we will not choose to navigate a terrain unless we have full knowledge of every corner. Feeling control of the process in itself stems from our fear of surprises we can't or don't want to deal with. That same subconscious fear led me to put a woman I dated through cunningly devised tests for the sole purpose of revealing her in situations that might or might never happen. On the outside, it looked like a confident and well-intentioned game so that both of us can cut our losses until I realized there's something fucked up with that.

I prefer to be authentic and let the circumstances reveal them. That is fair.

We also tend to neglect the human part. Someone who loves you and knows you well might look at your worst qualities as benign eccentricities, if you give them the chance to love you, that is. In the natural course, the annoyance of today might look adorable tomorrow.
The idea that how actions are perceived is set in stone is wrong. The human mind does not simply work that way.

That's just the point: I am authentic. I don't sugar-coat, or try always to put my best foot forward. I don't hide my worst qualities, but make sure the other person is well aware of them. I did quite a bit of this with one fellow. Was critical of things he did that I thought were stupid, was unbridled in sarcasm, insisted on space/alone time freely, rebuffed unneeded offers of help, etc. We have been married > 15 years now. That's because he does look at my worst qualities as benign eccentricities, and appreciates that I return the favor.

 

[Deprecator]

do you think someone like eggman honestly has a realistic chance at finding love?

Sounds like he's already found it.

"Eggman has had success with women. Mr Reynolds has been cheated on, yelled at, and even physically assaulted by many women he's encountered."

I was trying to figure out what his secret was, then it dawned on me. He's 6 ft 1 with a robust build. Women love tall dudes with robust builds.

It's just like anything else. If PUA theory gets you what you want, then I suppose it makes sense to follow it. It will get you the attention of someone who also buys into that approach to relationships. If most people you encounter are put off by it, though, you will have to content yourself with the limited pool who are not, or alter your approach.

I always thought that PUA theory merely categorizes sex as an ideal outcome, and in turn acknowledges that certain behaviors/ actions have the potential to increase the chances for this ideal outcome to occur. There's no "official" approach or strategy that is advocated in order to make this happen. In fact if "Living your own life and treating others kindly without expectation" was the best way to acquire sex, then that's what PUA theory would advocate for. Some people might respond to this approach of living your own life and treating others kindly, and others might not; there's no limit or consensus as to what works best, as the community is based almost entirely on hearsay and anecdote.

Well, if you view sex/relationships as a professional or economic interaction governed by contracts and compensated financially, I can see where you would apply the same approach to it as you do when applying for a job.

When faced with skepticism that "PUA doesn't work", I merely presented a non-literal analogy to demonstrate that certain measures are able to increase the chances for an ideal outcome, up to and including, mutually beneficial relationships that can include sex. Acknowledging this as a concept doesn't mean that it's necessary to treat relationships as a professional or economic interaction.
,

Well, first of all, some people aren't looking for just sex, and second of all, the objection is that PUA is a bit more than just certain methods/behaviors/ forms of preparation, and third of all, it's effectiveness seems to be overstated.

I read that in Israel there was once a drunk man at a bar who boasted about being a super well hung Jewish doctor. This impressed at least one of the patrons at the bar, and so she decided to invite him back to her place. The next morning she decided that she had been raped; she only consented to have sex with him because she thought that he was a super well hung Jewish doctor, and it turned out that he wasn't a Jewish doctor at all.

If sex was a priority and instead this woman was going to be impressed by compassion, honesty and genuine concern for the welfare of others, then I think he would have tried boasting about these other qualities instead.

 

[Coriolis]

I always thought that PUA theory merely categorizes sex as an ideal outcome, and in turn acknowledges that certain behaviors/ actions have the potential to increase the chances for this ideal outcome to occur. There's no "official" approach or strategy that is advocated in order to make this happen. In fact if "Living your own life and treating others kindly without expectation" was the best way to acquire sex, then that's what PUA theory would advocate for. Some people might respond to this approach of living your own life and treating others kindly, and others might not; there's no limit or consensus as to what works best, as the community is based almost entirely on hearsay and anecdote.


When faced with skepticism that "PUA doesn't work", I merely presented a non-literal analogy to demonstrate that certain measures are able to increase the chances for an ideal outcome, up to and including, mutually beneficial relationships that can include sex. Acknowledging this as a concept doesn't mean that it's necessary to treat relationships as a professional or economic interaction.

That is a good part of my point. PUA, when successful, will get you sex with someone for whom sex is the main objective, too. Someone interested in a deeper relationship, who sees sex as something nice to have later on, when you know each other better and have developed some trust, will likely blow off someone approaching this way.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I read that in Israel there was once a drunk man at a bar who boasted about being a super well hung Jewish doctor. This impressed at least one of the patrons at the bar, and so she decided to invite him back to her place. The next morning she decided that she had been raped; she only consented to have sex with him because she thought that he was a super well hung Jewish doctor, and it turned out that he wasn't a Jewish doctor at all.

If sex was a priority and instead this woman was going to be impressed by compassion, honesty and genuine concern for the welfare of others, then I think he would have tried boasting about these other qualities instead.

Ok.... so this is kind of zeroing in on what people find objectionable about PUA. If it includes lying about your profession and background, can't you see why many people would have a problem with that? Not that the woman in this story is in the right (assuming it actually happened), either.... if it really mattered to her, perhaps she should have vetted him a little better? Maybe like, don't sleep with people until you can be sure they aren't full of shit about stuff like that?

Honestly, I don't really feel sympathy for either party in that situation.

 

[Pionart]

Convincing a woman to consent to sex when she really doesn't want to have sex? Is this what we call A++ wife material or is it merely the title to the next New York times bestseller?


Do you think that the subsequent phrase, 'then not only is it absolutely never their fault', might also somehow imply someone who is merely bored of consensual sex?

Yeah how about you answer the question?

 

[Sacrophagus]

That is a good part of my point. PUA, when successful, will get you sex with someone for whom sex is the main objective, too.

No. When it works, it works regardless of everything.

Someone interested in a deeper relationship will likely blow off someone approaching this way.

"Likely, but who knows".

We agree on that.

 

[Agent Washington]

I tend to think most incels problems are psychological rather than physical, but guys, do you think someone like eggman honestly has a realistic chance at finding love? Would any ladies ever give this guy a real shot? Do you think some people truly are doomed to be forever alone no matter how great their personalities? I’m not being rhetorical, I’m looking for genuine answers. Are some people simply holding a poor hand of cards, genetically speaking? A lot of people say they’d date anyone if their personalities were good, but would anyone who says this sort of platitude seriously consider giving someone like this the time of day?

Reference: Eggman - Incel Wiki

This guy's problem sounds like it's less his looks rather than his issues... He looks like a regular sort of guy that you might run into at Walmart, but something's off about his behaviour and streaming habits.

And realistically, people tend to date others that are similar physically, which means a 9/10 would go for a 9/10. 5/10s would have better luck with other 5/10s instead of heading for the 9/10.