• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

If Christians Were Being Lied To, Would We/They Know It?

onemoretime

Dreaming the life
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
4,455
MBTI Type
3h50
I know how babies are made and why things stay dead.

If there is something to have faith in, I doubt it would lie to us, these beliefs could be tricks played on Christians from a somewhat unholy origin.

No, you don't. You have observations and have made predictions based off those observations. You've substituted these for the "how", but the "how" itself, the first cause, is beyond us.
 

Fluffywolf

Nips away your dignity
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
9,581
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Some people believe a horseshoe nailed above a doorway is a good luck charm if it looks like a U.

If you believe a horseshoe nailed above a doorway is a good luck charm if it looks like a U. Then when you go outside that day and something good happens to you. You will credit the horseshoe for that good luck. You will cherish it. It will make you feel safe and secure.

Maybe that's okay. Doesn't seem very harmful does it?

What happens when I steal your horseshoe. It's just gone. You wake up, look above your doorway and there's nothing there!
Would you still dare to go outside? Without the horseshoe, there's no knowing what will happen! You might literally just die!
Can you take that chance or are you incapacitated by fear?
You have made yourself dependant on your belief and forgot how to live without it.

I am free of fear.
 

Fluffywolf

Nips away your dignity
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
9,581
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Just in case it got past people.

God is a horseshoe.

I would love to steal your horseshoe if it meant you'd be able to open your eyes, shed your fear and learn to live life to the absolute fullest. I would do it without pause or regret.

It is a shame that unlike a horseshoe, the idea of God is hard to steal.
 

Lark

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,568
Why just christians?

I dont see them as any more or less easily conned than the rest of the population, nor do I think that non-christians are more critical and aware either, this is one of those atheist, so smart humble brags again, I've never met as conceited or compensating a bunch of people in my life, except perhaps on the fringes of evangelical movements of all stripes and opinions.
 

ilikeitlikethat

You're unbelievable ...
Joined
May 29, 2012
Messages
2,158
MBTI Type
xNTP
Enneagram
7w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Why just christians?

I dont see them as any more or less easily conned than the rest of the population, nor do I think that non-christians are more critical and aware either, this is one of those atheist, so smart humble brags again, I've never met as conceited or compensating a bunch of people in my life, except perhaps on the fringes of evangelical movements of all stripes and opinions.

I'm looking out as a Christian who doesn't want to be tricked into Hell by the Devil posing as God telling us to be his servant.
 

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Think, if somebody really did mean Christians harm and there was such a thing as sin, then should lies told not be alarm bells warning of a wolf in sheep's clothing?
In our hearts, we know where babies comes from and how they get there, we also know why people stay dead.
Would serious lies on this natural level be a tell tale sign of a foe?

The Virgin Birth.
Resurrection Beyond the Grave.
"The Devil is the father of all lies."

If these were found to all be false yet so in the face of the believer, wouldn't that be some sinister form of assault against Christians on a spiritual level if they've got their whole universe turned upside down by a book? I'm not suggesting to believers to not believe; but I don't want believers following lies to interpret just on an off chance that it's rooted in an evil working against us/them.

There is a general principle from God when you read things in full context. Its live, love, treat people well. You should follow that irregardless of religion as well. So when it all comes down to it, follow what is good for people.

The bible says the word is God...you dont have to follow God...follow the word. Worship the word, "God" is irrelevant. "I am" exists because the word exists.

Anyway...thats my 2 cents of what i have gathered. I personally dont care. Like i have said in the past which irritates some religious people as well as stokes fear. I will be the best i can be irregardless of heaven or hell, if God disapproves he can kiss my ass.
 

BlueScreen

Fail 2.0
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
2,668
MBTI Type
YMCA
I will be the best i can be irregardless of heaven or hell, if God disapproves he can kiss my ass.
Same for me.

I have good intent. Why would I want a God that stunts that?

In terms of religion, I am happy to learn from its philosophies, but following blindly is pretty incompatible with me. I question everything.

Also why would a god create so many people who are each unique and each offer something different, then try to kill that uniqueness and homogenise them into drones that just follow a book? That seems far more like the work of power hungry humans.

So no, they wouldn't know they are being lied to, because they probably are, but they are still there.
 

wool

Permabanned
Joined
Jun 3, 2016
Messages
466

Same for me.

I have good intent. Why would I want a God that stunts that?

In terms of religion, I am happy to learn from its philosophies, but following blindly is pretty incompatible with me. I question everything.

Also why would a god create so many people who are each unique and each offer something different, then try to kill that uniqueness and homogenise them into drones that just follow a book? That seems far more like the work of power hungry humans.

So no, they wouldn't know they are being lied to, because they probably are, but they are still there.

Have you ever been to church, and gotten to know the people there? Do it, and tell me that God killed their uniqueness.
 

ilikeitlikethat

You're unbelievable ...
Joined
May 29, 2012
Messages
2,158
MBTI Type
xNTP
Enneagram
7w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
There is a general principle from God when you read things in full context. Its live, love, treat people well. You should follow that irregardless of religion as well. So when it all comes down to it, follow what is good for people.
The Satanic Bible says greed & jealously is natural.
How do we know the Holy Bible isn't mocking nature to suppress such feelings (as well as tell us of virgin births and life after death)?

What if those who live by the Holy Bible are damned for believing in a false God written in the Holy Bible?
A tool to gain the souls of Christians to damnation through lies in which they believe perhaps.
 

ceecee

Coolatta® Enjoyer
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
15,934
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
Have you ever been to church, and gotten to know the people there? Do it, and tell me that God killed their uniqueness.

Why would you get to know the people at church? Granted I was raised Catholic and they aren't what I would call inclusive. But to me, you are in church to communicate with God. You and God. That's it. It's not a social thing. I really dislike how it was turned into one.
 

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
The Satanic Bible says greed & jealously is natural.
How do we know the Holy Bible isn't mocking nature to suppress such feelings (as well as tell us of virgin births and life after death)?

What if those who live by the Holy Bible are damned for believing in a false God written in the Holy Bible?
A tool to gain the souls of Christians to damnation through lies in which they believe perhaps.

Have fun in hell that is nothing but greed and jealousy. I prefer heaven if that is my option. Damn me to heaven where i dont have to deal with greed and jealousy.
 

Kanra Jest

Av'ent'Gar'de ~
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
2,388
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
The Man of Lawlessness
For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, in order that judgment will come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.…


What if the strong delusion is Christianity? Religion itself. A delusion that God himself created.

They say Christianity is the one true religion and all outside of it is false. But verily I say, they have been deceived. All Religion is our delusion.
 

ilikeitlikethat

You're unbelievable ...
Joined
May 29, 2012
Messages
2,158
MBTI Type
xNTP
Enneagram
7w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Is God a wolf in shepard's clothing?
Making mankind a sheep.
Making mankind to serve God.
What if nature made mankind and God and God wanted to damn mankind?
What if damnation is to accept what we know by nature to be false?
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
Why would you get to know the people at church? Granted I was raised Catholic and they aren't what I would call inclusive. But to me, you are in church to communicate with God. You and God. That's it. It's not a social thing. I really dislike how it was turned into one.

Where two or more are gathered together in My Name, there I am in the midst of them.
 

StrawberryBoots

New member
Joined
Dec 29, 2016
Messages
407
If Christians Were Being Lied To, Would We/They Know It?
I think so. The impartation of the Holy Spirit is convincing. In an instant, one shares the very heart of God. There are supernatural gifts that come with it that are undeniably not of ourselves; for example, healing and prophetic knowledge.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
I think so. The impartation of the Holy Spirit is convincing. In an instant, one shares the very heart of God. There are supernatural gifts that come with it that are undeniably not of ourselves; for example, healing and prophetic knowledge.

Dear StawberryBoots, if healing worked the medical profession would be put out of business, and if prophecy worked the whole gambling industry would close down.

Jesus, for instance, drove out demons. Jesus believed that demons caused physical and mental illness. And Jesus was not alone, there were many healers in the first century who believed demons caused physical and mental illness. And today we know Jesus was simply mistaken.

Exorcism is the driving out of demons, so Jesus, along with many others in the first century, was an exorcist. And today a few Christian denominations practise healing or exorcism. And bless their little strawberry boots, they make the same mistake as Jesus.
 

Abendrot

one way trip
Joined
Sep 2, 2016
Messages
600
MBTI Type
IntJ
Enneagram
85X
Instinctual Variant
sx
To the question as to whether Christianity (or any other after-death belief system) is true, we have to wait till it's too late, that is until we are dead.

The alternative to waiting is Pascal's Wager, but I stand on the principle that important life decisions should not be taken on fear. Fear of going to hell seems like the wrong reason to be a Christian.

Life is too short to be spent fretting over something like Pascal's wager. Besides, I think Pascal's wager is intrinsically flawed. What if there was some malevolent God who despises Christianity? Or perhaps the Bible was actually written by Satan in order to mislead people? In that case, the faithful could be punished. I think this is something like what the OP was referring to. Unlikely, yes. But then again the existence of the Christian God also strikes me as very unlikely.
 

Zangetshumody

Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
458
MBTI Type
INTJ
Think, if somebody really did mean Christians harm and there was such a thing as sin, then should lies told not be alarm bells warning of a wolf in sheep's clothing?
In our hearts, we know where babies comes from and how they get there, we also know why people stay dead.
Would serious lies on this natural level be a tell tale sign of a foe?

The Virgin Birth.
Resurrection Beyond the Grave.
"The Devil is the father of all lies."

If these were found to all be false yet so in the face of the believer, wouldn't that be some sinister form of assault against Christians on a spiritual level if they've got their whole universe turned upside down by a book? I'm not suggesting to believers to not believe; but I don't want believers following lies to interpret just on an off chance that it's rooted in an evil working against us/them.

It's difficult already for me to know where to start in response, because although I am included with the group of people you are seeking to address, you are ascribing beliefs to me, which I do not possess. To engage in this thread, do I have to defend what you label Christian, and what other self-identifying Christians (so-called Christians), profess to believe?

If you just stick to the doctrine of Christ, and some scriptural passages, a lot of what you have laid out, is easily debunked, as a critique of an inaccurate-caricature, and even though some people might believe in that caricature; for you to smear that description wide so as to envelop the label "Christian", is for me, the same as thinking that all Atheists have that smug teenage 'Christian-youth' holier-than-thou temperament, because they belong to the "in" crowd, before testing their beliefs with any humble discussion (a.k.a rigor); through the pursuit of thoughtful argument (thoughtful argument being the antithesis of a conceited one).

The language of the new testament, is directly true, the nature of truth though, is not based on "factual" truth (whatever the hell that even means, perhaps you would actually bother surveying the epistemological credentials of the Scientific world-view, and the abject poverty entailed with that philosophy, before coming down from your mystical ivory tower that you seem to be making your suggestions [to "Christians"] from).

I won't get into any of the smaller controversies which you list as indictments, although I would be able to pick some apart quite convincingly, just off the top of my head: so much as to focus on the core argument of your post, and how misguided it's criticism... Christianity was never about creating a culture of factual gainsaying, it is about quite a lot more: its about securing a culture of direct communication between people, one that doesn't disperse and degrade epistemological content, a process which cannot be formulated into worldly prescriptions (hence the reliance on "spiritual" language, that allows one to uncover the source of a psychological and epistemological interface; involving important doctrinal concepts like: the "discerning" spirit, the "quickening" spirit, and the spirit "of truth".) In short, I find it interesting how much your initial post just misses the boat entirely (although, I guess its designed to agitate those bible thumping protestants, or literal-believing creationists etc.) when one considers that the core of the Christian faith, is quite simply espoused by John in such a way that obviates your criticism entirely, because the focus is not about 'who is right', its about, 'how do we communicate effectively, on a field of truth we can be convinced about, and not simply a platform of conceited group-think'.

1Jn 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.


----

A further example of the deep epistemic system involved in the doctrine:

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.


The message, and even the name of Jesus Christ, is in a very different position to thoughts about temporal concerns (which is also, and conversely: one of the presumptions about the underpinnings of base-reality in the Scientific paradigm).

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.

___
Here is some additional resources for your general edification:

Catherine Z. Elgin – Nature’s Handmaiden, Art | London Aesthetics Forum, at the Institute of Philosophy | Podcast Chart

Noam Chomsky - "The machine, the ghost, and the limits of understanding" - YouTube
 

ilikeitlikethat

You're unbelievable ...
Joined
May 29, 2012
Messages
2,158
MBTI Type
xNTP
Enneagram
7w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
It's difficult already for me to know where to start in response, because although I am included with the group of people you are seeking to address, you are ascribing beliefs to me, which I do not possess. To engage in this thread, do I have to defend what you label Christian, and what other self-identifying Christians (so-called Christians), profess to believe?

If you just stick to the doctrine of Christ, and some scriptural passages, a lot of what you have laid out, is easily debunked, as a critique of an inaccurate-caricature, and even though some people might believe in that caricature; for you to smear that description wide so as to envelop the label "Christian", is for me, the same as thinking that all Atheists have that smug teenage 'Christian-youth' holier-than-thou temperament, because they belong to the "in" crowd, before testing their beliefs with any humble discussion (a.k.a rigor); through the pursuit of thoughtful argument (thoughtful argument being the antithesis of a conceited one).

The language of the new testament, is directly true, the nature of truth though, is not based on "factual" truth (whatever the hell that even means, perhaps you would actually bother surveying the epistemological credentials of the Scientific world-view, and the abject poverty entailed with that philosophy, before coming down from your mystical ivory tower that you seem to be making your suggestions [to "Christians"] from).

I won't get into any of the smaller controversies which you list as indictments, although I would be able to pick some apart quite convincingly, just off the top of my head: so much as to focus on the core argument of your post, and how misguided it's criticism... Christianity was never about creating a culture of factual gainsaying, it is about quite a lot more: its about securing a culture of direct communication between people, one that doesn't disperse and degrade epistemological content, a process which cannot be formulated into worldly prescriptions (hence the reliance on "spiritual" language, that allows one to uncover the source of a psychological and epistemological interface; involving important doctrinal concepts like: the "discerning" spirit, the "quickening" spirit, and the spirit "of truth".) In short, I find it interesting how much your initial post just misses the boat entirely (although, I guess its designed to agitate those bible thumping protestants, or literal-believing creationists etc.) when one considers that the core of the Christian faith, is quite simply espoused by John in such a way that obviates your criticism entirely, because the focus is not about 'who is right', its about, 'how do we communicate effectively, on a field of truth we can be convinced about, and not simply a platform of conceited group-think'.

1Jn 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.


----

A further example of the deep epistemic system involved in the doctrine:

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.


The message, and even the name of Jesus Christ, is in a very different position to thoughts about temporal concerns (which is also, and conversely: one of the presumptions about the underpinnings of base-reality in the Scientific paradigm).

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.

___
Here is some additional resources for your general edification:

Catherine Z. Elgin – Nature’s Handmaiden, Art | London Aesthetics Forum, at the Institute of Philosophy | Podcast Chart

Noam Chomsky - "The machine, the ghost, and the limits of understanding" - YouTube

The Holy Bible is a tool of oppression to keep the masses in check.
This is fact;
To accept in virgin birth, the life eternal and other teachings that contradict nature, could be cardinal sin; a test on which is failed by every believer of the lies printed.
 

Zangetshumody

Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
458
MBTI Type
INTJ
The Holy Bible is a tool of oppression to keep the masses in check.
This is fact;
To accept in virgin birth, the life eternal and other teachings that contradict nature, could be cardinal sin; a test on which is failed by every believer of the lies printed.

Why did you even bother to quote me, you might of just started out by saying you were illiterate.
 
Top