If Christ was completely without sin...

[Mole]

Maybe Abraham/Isaac was symbolic of what God as a father would do to his son for the sake of all humankind?

C'mon, child abuse won't save us anymore than misogyny.

And we are starting to grow out of a Bronze Age religion based on slavery, misogyny and child abuse.

For in 1833 the House of Commons abolished institutional slavery for the first time in human history.

And in 1904 women gained the national vote in Australia and New Zealand for the first time in human history.

And in 1996 we started prosecuting child abuse in our Criminal Courts for the first time in human history.

 

[IZthe411]

Hmm, I reckon that the expelling of the moneylenders with a whipwas more than paid for by the scourging at the pillar, dont you think?

Its not anger BTW its wrath, although I'm not sure that tossing some tables and chasing people constitutes wrath really.

As God's anointed, he had the right to chase them out of there. That's not sin, that's a God-given right.

 

[Lark]

Not sure what you are saying here?

Sorry, wasnt saying that your point was daft, was refering to the comparisons with Abraham.

Even in the story of Abraham, I think its odd to focus on the child sacrifice angle so much, its also distinctly modern (possibly even post-modern) to make points about child abuse, surely the point is that the God of the hebrews doesnt require human sacrifices?

 

[Lark]

As God's anointed, he had the right to chase them out of there. That's not sin, that's a God-given right.

Maybe, although considering even movies like 7 its pretty tame to be considered wrathful

 

[Lark]

that was my point... anger, wrath, throwing an amazing temper tantrum... any of those probably aren't on the New Testament God's List of Holy Virtues (now the old testament one... that's a bit more questionable )

I just remember that because I heard an interesting sermon on Jesus understanding sin because he himself had even sinned, which was proof that repentant sinners could enter Heaven... that was one of the few times I actually paid attention when forced to go to church... it was a guest minister that sunday!

You think that's good, what do you think of the story of the woman at the well in Mark? Jesus appears to be validating the traditional racial theory of election or choosen people to begin with, then he decides he will reward th woman's faith with a miracle.

 

[Mole]

Even in the story of Abraham, I think its odd to focus on the child sacrifice angle so much, its also distinctly modern (possibly even post-modern) to make points about child abuse, surely the point is that the God of the hebrews doesnt require human sacrifices?

The Father demands human sacrifice of his Son.

 

[miss fortune]

You should probably take that up with him when you see him. :rolli:

I'll make sure to criticize Santa for having a foot fetish at that meeting as well

 

[IZthe411]

Sorry, wasnt saying that your point was daft, was refering to the comparisons with Abraham.

Even in the story of Abraham, I think its odd to focus on the child sacrifice angle so much, its also distinctly modern (possibly even post-modern) to make points about child abuse, surely the point is that the God of the hebrews doesnt require human sacrifices?

Exodus chapter 21- God's standard of justice was "eye for eye, tooth for tooth...soul for soul". He didn't require human sacrifices because it was impossible for any ordinary human's life to satisfy what Adam lost. The animal sacrifices that were acceptible were for temporary forgiveness, and even those animals had to be relatively healthy and sound to be accepted.

It was a test to Abraham's faithfulness. If you recall, Isaac was born to a 100year old Abraham and a 90 year old Sarah- a miracle birth. God asked Abraham to do it, and Abraham all but complied before he was stopped by God himself. But it also symbolizes the greater sacrifice later made by Jesus.

Hope this is answering your question. To be honest I had to look at it a few times before I got it.

 

[IZthe411]

Maybe, although considering even movies like 7 its pretty tame to be considered wrathful

God has wrath, is vengeful, and all of that, because he has the right to. He created us. We as humans are no better than our fellow man, and have no right to exercise that kind of judgement on people. Anger is a natural emotion but needed to be checked so that we don't kill or hurt people.

 

[Mole]

The Christ myth is a blood sacrifice in a time of slavery, misogyny and child abuse.

Civilized countries are moving away from blood sacrifice, slavery, misogyny and child abuse.

 

[gromit]

The Christ myth is a blood sacrifice in a time of slavery, misogyny and child abuse.

Civilized countries are moving away from blood sacrifice, slavery, misogyny and child abuse.

The teachings of Jesus Christ were pretty radical/progressive at the time. That's actually a huge part of the reason why he was killed. He upset the status quo.

Anyway, you didn't answer my question about homosexuals and misogyny.

 

[swordpath]

Exodus chapter 21- God's standard of justice was "eye for eye, tooth for tooth...soul for soul". He didn't require human sacrifices because it was impossible for any ordinary human's life to satisfy what Adam lost. The animal sacrifices that were acceptible were for temporary forgiveness, and even those animals had to be relatively healthy and sound to be accepted.

It was a test to Abraham's faithfulness. If you recall, Isaac was born to a 100year old Abraham and a 90 year old Sarah- a miracle birth. God asked Abraham to do it, and Abraham all but complied before he was stopped by God himself. But it also symbolizes the greater sacrifice later made by Jesus.

Hope this is answering your question. To be honest I had to look at it a few times before I got it.

Off topic, but God Vs. Adam is so fucked up, I don't care what the stakes are... It's this all knowledgeable and powerful being, versus a weak human being, made by this all knowledgeable and powerful being. "Hey, if you give into the instincts and desires I gave you, you're damned! Hah!" -- "If you resist natural urge, uhh, well, maybe I won't condemn the rest of the world to pain and suffering for the duration of it's existence. Hah!"

 

[Mole]

The teachings of Jesus Christ were pretty radical/progressive at the time. That's actually a huge part of the reason why he was killed. He upset the status quo.

Next you will be telling me Christ was killed by the Jews, and so perpetuating the blood libel of deicide.

In the myth, Christ was sacrificed by his Father.

 

[miss fortune]

Jesus committed a crime by Roman law and received the punishment that the crime was meted... everyone overcomplicates that fact... just look at the roman laws and common punishments at the time and you'll realize that!

 

[Lark]

Off topic, but God Vs. Adam is so fucked up, I don't care what the stakes are... It's this all knowledgeable and powerful being, versus a weak human being, made by this all knowledgeable and powerful being. "Hey, if you give into the instincts and desires I gave you, you're damned! Hah!" -- "If you resist natural urge, uhh, well, maybe I won't condemn the rest of the world to pain and suffering for the duration of it's existence. Hah!"

That's a metaphor, the bible is full of parables and Jesus used them himself so I'm always confused as to why people need to read Genesis literally.

The moral of the story is about doubt, you shouldnt doubt God, and I think its pretty clear that there's a choice to be made, behave like an animal or behave with divinity? Which is it going to be?

 

[gromit]

Next you will be telling me Christ was killed by the Jews, and so perpetuating the blood libel of deicide.

In the myth, Christ was sacrificed by his Father.

Why are you avoiding my question, Victor? I am honestly just curious what you think...

 

[swordpath]

That's a metaphor, the bible is full of parables and Jesus used them himself so I'm always confused as to why people need to read Genesis literally.

The moral of the story is about doubt, you shouldnt doubt God, and I think its pretty clear that there's a choice to be made, behave like an animal or behave with divinity? Which is it going to be?

How much of the bible is metaphor and then literal? How are we to be expected to properly translate what the fuck is being said or instructed? There's so much ambiguity about the whole subject, that it's just ridiculous to me that someone can be confident that they're "living the right way" in following the God of the bible.

 

[Lark]

Exodus chapter 21- God's standard of justice was "eye for eye, tooth for tooth...soul for soul". He didn't require human sacrifices because it was impossible for any ordinary human's life to satisfy what Adam lost. The animal sacrifices that were acceptible were for temporary forgiveness, and even those animals had to be relatively healthy and sound to be accepted.

It was a test to Abraham's faithfulness. If you recall, Isaac was born to a 100year old Abraham and a 90 year old Sarah- a miracle birth. God asked Abraham to do it, and Abraham all but complied before he was stopped by God himself. But it also symbolizes the greater sacrifice later made by Jesus.

Hope this is answering your question. To be honest I had to look at it a few times before I got it.

He doesnt demand human sacrifice even in Exodus, that is about proportionality, ie you dont take the lives of an entire tribe if one of them puts the eye out of one of your kinsmen, although that's been forgotten pretty much.

 

[Lark]

How much of the bible is metaphor and then literal? How are we to be expected to properly translate what the fuck is being said or instructed? There's so much ambiguity about the whole subject, that it's just ridiculous to me that someone can be confident that they're "living the right way" in following the God of the bible.

Well I'm not too worried, I've got thousands of years of expert scholarship and tradition to rely on, anyone who believes in solo scripture or a holy priesthood of all believers could be in trouble with that one though.

Anyway, there's tradition too, personally I think if Christianity IS the bible then it is a dead religion, its more than just the bible, its tradition too.

 

[swordpath]

Well I'm not too worried, I've got thousands of years of expert scholarship and tradition to rely on, anyone who believes in solo scripture or a holy priesthood of all believers could be in trouble with that one though.

Anyway, there's tradition too, personally I think if Christianity IS the bible then it is a dead religion, its more than just the bible, its tradition too.

So you're for the tradition or against? I'm not following between your paragraphs.