[NT] I/ENTJ Men and Intimate Relationships

[sophiedoph]

What if your wife didn't make enough to support you both--you both had to work? Do you create a chore chart and share?

Re: two ambitious individuals being married--I have heard it said "You can't both be super-stars, someone needs to take care of the house..." I haven't decided if I agree with that or not, but I believe that the companionship and friendship is very much worth it.

I have sacrificed a lot for our relationship. Coming from a top university with a stellar GPA and exceptional research experience, I really could have gone to some exceptinal graduate schools. I was accepted into top law schools, but chose the local one. Why? Because being apart from my husband makes me depressed I really love him a lot, and the times we have been separated (I lived on-campus for 4 months when I first started law school) he has felt the same.

I would love to work in the international human rights arena. I always tell him if he leaves me I'm joining the Peace Corps (haha!) I would love to move to the capitol of our state and be a lobbyist, or go work for Amnesty Int'l or some other NGO. But I have made a commitment, and my commitment to our relationship comes before all of that. The occasional business trip I have to take is as much away as I am willing to be. I also have two birds that are high maintenance and am a pretty devoted parrot mommy.

Addressing the small business + full time job aspect... I hate law. I hate everything about law except my clients. I never had a migraine in my life until I started working--the conflict, the office politics... it's more than I can bear. I get migraines daily now.

I realized that if I wanted to get out of law I had to find an alternative that would pay at least as well. I developed a very popular product that is in its own little niche, but spent so much time working on it because frankly? Since I have chosen the path of being married and putting that first, I want to work from home in something other than law. I want to clean the house and cook dinner, have time to garden, and still make money.

And I need that other something to be able to contribute to our income and still pay my $1400/mth student loans (not including my husband's). (Law school is $$$$.)

I did the business because *for us* I think we are happiest when I am able to stay home and take care of "everything else." I don't mind doing that, I really love it actually. But we can't afford for me to stay at home, and anyway I'd go crazy without some other something to do. Hence, I poured myself into that business out of grit, out of knowing that I hate law, and we'd both be happiest if I were home, and that was the only way to accomplish it.

At the moment the business is growing phenomenally well. I didn't think I had a business bone in my body. (An INFJ in business? Do fish ride bikes?) But I really, really love it. Since July it has been largely a maintenance activity since I put so much time into it before. My dream would be to work from home on the business, having time to clean, to cook, to see the seasons pass, to watch my parrots play on the patio as I work (much as life was while I was in law school on my days off)... and do immigration law pro bono on the side, as my connection to "international human rights." I do these on the side right now as well, and just love them. Unfortunately the clients usually can't afford a lawyer, so it's not an area of law I could pursue to pay my bills...

I hope all of this makes sense. I'm working on said pro bono appellate brief and am a bit, erm, scatterbrained.

 

[Not_Me]

What if your wife didn't make enough to support you both--you both had to work?

I'm curious why it's difficult to make ends meet with on a lawyer's salary. (which I assume is very high) As an inwardly focused person, I have very simple material needs. Ever since I started working, I had more money than I could reasonably spend.

I'm guessing that the consumption level is driven by your husband's values. This thread is about assertiveness and independence, but it sounds like you're sacrificing most of your aspirations to fit into his world.

I'm not criticizing. Just wondering about the relationship dynamics.

 

[sophiedoph]

Because it's not very high. We are both public interest lawyers with high student loans. Our loans alone are $2000/mth. Our salaries are not your usual lawyer's salary (that would be nice!). In public interest law, salaries start in the upper $30ks-lower $40ks. The city in which we live, the rental prices are $1200 for a 2/2 apartment. Houses here start around $279k, and those would be fixer-uppers.

In short, expensive location, low salary. We can't even afford a house. But we went into law for public interest, so here we are.

ETA: I do feel I sacrifice a lot. Our lifestyle is not expensive by any stretch of the imagination, but any extra we have goes not toward material things but to the artistic and creative: we make a lot of stuff--we love crafts, painting, gardening, making models, etc. So it's not that he's materialistic, it's that we really can't afford for me to quit--again, our student loans combined are $2000/mth. Clarified, that's nearly $25,000/year.

That said, he knows I hate law. His response: "Grow up. Nobody likes to work, if they did, they wouldn't have to pay us." He hates his job too, but I have endeavored to at least attempt to make a change in mine. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but at least I will have tried.

 

[LadyJaye]

A better win-win solution would be living alone. Anything else would be too much of an hassle to me, I'm a rather accomodating person and I dislike having trouble in my life: sure as hell this type of situation would bring a lot of it. A life of going to bed at 12 after finishing working, and getting up at 7 at work? I need more freedom than that. I would become depressed after a month of that. I'd run straight to live in a small village in the mountains completely alone.

I find it so much simpler being single. I don't think I've ever dated a guy who had enough self esteem to deal with the fact that I hated having someone up on me all the time. I like being independent, having my own space, but they treat it like it's a brush off. Can't deal with their dramatics.

 

[Valiant]

Do male I/ENTJ men like a woman who is assertive, confident, somewhat aggressive and organized? What "type" of women if given the choice would you choose to be involved in a romantic relationship with? What "type" would you prefer to marry?

If you're an NTJ male I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I've tried INTJ, ISFP, ESFP, ENFJ and INFP.
Of those I've come to dislike all except the INFP based on varying reasons. The INFP is my current girlfriend and the only one I have lived with. She officially moved in with me a couple of months ago, and it has been more or less without pain, and definitely a lot of laughs and nice things

To answer your questions, I do not like aggressive, confident, assertive and organized. That sounds like ESTJ, and I can smell + avoid those at six hundred yards. I like cute, little, aggressive, resourceful, socially talented and deeply emotional. In short: I've found that my "type" is INFP or maybe ENFP. The I/E factor is kind of unimportant.

 

[EffEmDoubleyou]

Hey you. Did I tell you you could socialize with your friends? Or have your own opinions, for that matter?!

No, ma'am.

Oh, I hope you don't mind, but I took the liberty of reorganizing your spice rack by tossing all of the bottles into the air and then putting them back into the cabinet. Just treat it like it's a treasure hunt.

Okay, nobody touches my kitchen stuff. NO-BODY.

 

[SquirrelTao]

Hahaha! Oh my... so what is this fear of assertiveness? An assertive woman knows what she wants and will tell you. She's honest. What's the problem?

I have to agree with you, and in fact I think an ENFP can quite possibly have an easier time having a healthy relationship with an INTJ. There are times when I try to get my INTJ to go out and do something with me, and then I fail to meet his standards of planning, and my enthusiasm just goes down the toilet when he unleashes his oh so logical criticism. I wish I could be more persuasive to him to be enthusiastic about things. He's being all logical while failing to notice he's spoiling our fun, and I bet an ENFP would be able to handle that a lot better than I can as an INFP. ENFPs don't seem to be to fazed if their spontaneity does not meet up with others' standards for being highly organized or being a good planner or some other anal shit that doesn't matter as much as having fun in a given situation.

 

[SquirrelTao]

If he's like mine (and it sounds very similar) it's not that he's chauvinist, it's not even that he makes more money. It's that he doesn't want to do it and will find an excuse for you to have to do it.

I moved in with my husband six years ago. He was in his last year of law school, I was finishing my BS in behavioral neuroscience. I had strong feelings about equality in all things, division of labor, etc. He thought I should do more because "OMG I'M IN LAW SCHOOL AND IT'S SO HARD AND YOU ARE ONLY GETTING YOUR UNDERGRAD DEGREE OMG!" So fine, I did more/all. I thought when we started working it would change.

Then we both started working and it was OMG I WORK SO MUCH HARDER THAN YOU/I HAVE SO MUCH MORE STRESS THAN YOU YOU SHOULD DO EVERYTHING! And it was true. So I did, thinking someday if I were ever his equal (or went to law school) it would be different.

For various reasons unrelated to equality (namely, I didn't think I had the patience for psychology but wanted to seek social good) I did wind up in law school. I commuted four hours/day to school because he didn't want to move/had a job. I usually got around 2-4 hours of sleep per night, working my ass off in school. I still had to do everything because OMG I MAKE MORE THAN YOU! The first year nothing got done--our house was probably a health hazard. The second and third years I had 2-3 days "off" / week to stay home, so that's why I had to do it all, even though I was taking 17 credit hours, working part time as a research assistant, and working 20 hours/week in a human rights legal clinic.

Then I graduated and started working.

And the reason I had to do it all? Because my area of law is "glorified social work" (poverty law) and he goes to trial more often. (Forget about hte fact that I WORK MANY MORE HOURS THAN HE DOES AND I MAKE MORE MONEY THAN HE DOES!!

I put my foot down. :steam:

All I wanted was a housekeeper to come 1x/week for four hours. That's it. he said no because OMG SHE MIGHT ROB US BLIND. So I went on strike--cooking, cleaning, anything--for six months. I worked more than he did. I brought in more money. He wasn't going to one-up me because he does 12 trials/year. I started a small business--which he hated--and worked all of my spare time getting it up and running because as public-interest lawyers with school loan payments of $2000/month, we will never afford a house. I was up until 1am working on my business, and then getting up again at 7 to go to work, daily, for months.

During that time he learned to clean really well, and has become proficient in the art of the microwave meal. He's learned to grocery shop, he's started cleaning out the litter box (which is for HIS cats!), he's begun managing the finances.

My rule now is that I will clean as much as he does. If he wants the bathroom clean but leaves all his shit out, I'm not lifting a finger. If he cleans it, I will do my part to maintain it (wipe it down, etc.) but as soon as he starts leaving his stuff out or making a mess, he's on his own. He often cooks for both of us now, etc.

I don't think he would have necessarily preferred an ESFJ wife (I once told him he wanted a housekeeper wife, and if that was the case, he shouldn't have recommended law school! At the time I was pretty involved with the small business and didn't have much extra time for him, and he said, "I want a companion!")

We both struggle with anxiety/depression. We both think outside the box, dream big, etc. We are the very best of friends, and prefer each other's company to anyone else in the whole world. He's the only person I've ever met who doesn't drain me, and he has said the same about me on many occasions.

I think NTJs (or at least this INTJ) just doesn't like to have to do much S stuff--going outside of his head to have to clean, run errands, take care of basic stuff. I just don't give him much choice, and can be pretty loud about it.

Wow, I should pay you to be my counselor!

 

[norepinephrine]

. He's being all logical while failing to notice he's spoiling our fun, and I bet an ENFP would be able to handle that a lot better than I can as an INFP. ENFPs don't seem to be to fazed if their spontaneity does not meet up with others' standards for being highly organized or being a good planner or some other anal shit that doesn't matter as much as having fun in a given situation.

But.. but...but...being all logical IS fun.

Also, totally far from anal.

 

[phoenix13]

I have to agree with you, and in fact I think an ENFP can quite possibly have an easier time having a healthy relationship with an INTJ. There are times when I try to get my INTJ to go out and do something with me, and then I fail to meet his standards of planning, and my enthusiasm just goes down the toilet when he unleashes his oh so logical criticism. I wish I could be more persuasive to him to be enthusiastic about things. He's being all logical while failing to notice he's spoiling our fun, and I bet an ENFP would be able to handle that a lot better than I can as an INFP. ENFPs don't seem to be to fazed if their spontaneity does not meet up with others' standards for being highly organized or being a good planner or some other anal shit that doesn't matter as much as having fun in a given situation.

Hmmmm, I'll bet the logical mind can be warped with violence and/or sex. I think you should go primal on his arse. Seriously, though... tell him to quit being lame.

 

[murkrow]

Telling an INTJ to stop being lame is like telling an INFP to stop crying.

 

[Sunshine8]

Only definite criteria is she must be an N. Makes communication easier and also more interesting. Just don't piss off a female infj. Not fun.

It's interesting you should say that (about the N preference). I know that we are all supposed to be able to relate well to any type, but I find the S/N divide the largest.

Nearly all of my friends and co-workers are Ns and it really 'clunks' when you throw an S into the mix. Not so much for the N but for the S. They look at you like you are a total weirdo.

That said - I have the most amazingly beautiful ISFJ friend who is a guardian in every sense of the word. She doesn't have a bad bone in her body - but I certainly wouldn't start up with Metaphysical discussion. It doesn't do anything for her.

 

[Sunshine]

No. S/N divide isn't largest for me.
When I'm with ENXPs for example it's not an issue.

Socionics seems stupid until you really understand it well. I recommend it. It has some good theories on stuff like this.

 

[animenagai]

No. S/N divide isn't largest for me.
When I'm with ENXPs for example it's not an issue.

Socionics seems stupid until you really understand it well. I recommend it. It has some good theories on stuff like this.

you have a good link? i'm in the "it's stupid" camp

 

[INA]

Wow, I should pay you to be my counselor!

Seriously? He got away with his shenanigans for a long time.

 

[FDG]

I like cute, little, aggressive, resourceful, socially talented and deeply emotional.

Well that's good, yeah.

 

[SquirrelTao]

Telling an INTJ to stop being lame is like telling an INFP to stop crying.

He's really not lame. He's very fun loving. He just gets critical sometimes because I don't attend to a planning detail that he thinks should have been obvious. Okay, sometimes it's not just a detail. Once we were stuck for three days in an awful, dark, smelly little "cabin" in the upper peninsula of Michigan, LOL. But it's hard to tell how good a "cabin" is until you're there, ya know?

 

[heart]

Telling an INTJ to stop being lame is like telling an INFP to stop crying.

I cry maybe three or four time a year tops and never around other people except husband.

I have only cried in front of two people in my life, my mother and my husband.

Respectfully, I don't think you understand INFP at all.

 

[Maabus1999]

Two stubborn people = recipe for unfunness. I've learned to find my voice, and use it as necessary, but for my INTJ, it's one of those "you attract more flies by honey than vinegar" things. If he's being stubborn and obstinate, some sweetness wins him over pretty quickly.

I find the more aggressive/blunt I am, the less well we get along. The more I am sweet and nurturing, the more likely he is to agree with me.

So in a nutshell, I would say my INTJ values (in no particular order):
1. Independence
2. Intelligence/deep conversations
3. Someone who gently challenges ideas (not argumentative)
4. Introversion/someone who appreciates the need for space
5. Companionship
6. Loyalty
7. Someone who can tolerate bluntness (although too much of it earns him a chewing out)
8. Low maintenance
9. A "feeler" gauge--to let him know when he's being too T to others, help him evaluate conversations/office politics, and keep him in touch with the gentler side of life

Really, in a nutshell, he has often told me that he really values my loyalty, gentleness, and nurturing nature. He feels our home is his safe haven, and he'd rather be here than anywhere else in the world. (LOL--I agree!) Conflict wears him out and he appreciates coming home to a place where there's not too much of it (unless he's being too blunt--then it's dished right back).

I'd be interested in hearing others' experiences as well.

Yep. I relate to that INTJ. Same values.

 

[murkrow]

I cry maybe three or four time a year tops and never around other people except husband.

I have only cried in front of two people in my life, my mother and my husband.

Respectfully, I don't think you understand INFP at all.

Respectfully, I don't think you understood my post at all.

It's not that INFPs cry often, it's that telling them not to cry when they are crying is only going to make them cry more.