[Fe] FJs, describe Fe as you understand it

[SearchingforPeace]

Thans for your reply. It's taken me a while to think about what you said here, but, rest assured, you certainly did provoke some thinking!

I absolutely love provoking thinking in others, because it is a path for growth. And I love when others provoke thinking and pondering in me, because it helps me grow.

Plus, I do much of my best thinking while interacting with others. ..... so this is very helpful...to me....

I am learning Fi myself although for me it's more about accessing what is already there, as an INTJ it's the tertiary function. Letting unknown feelings sit around feels uncomfortable but they do have a message to convey.

For me, being Fe, turning inward has been about accepting a part of me that I absolutely rejected and repressed, which was extremely unhealthy. Listening to those inner feelings has been painful and challenging.

Yes, this annoys me about Fe users. They want to dig up my insides because they can see something is wrong or inconsistent, perhaps. But they then don't have a clue how to fix the emotional mess they have churned up, and furthermore they then tend to demand that I put it all away again unaided and don't churn publicly for the sake of group harmony; further I am supposed to thank them for their ministrations! Pah!

I don't dig them up. They are just there, as tangible to me your inner feelings are to you. All those disruptions to group harmony yell at me, before I address them. IME, so many people haven't even noticed their feelings and how they are impacting the them and the Fe world.

I don't want others to just shut them back up. I run into the fire way to often, burning myself in the process, to help others find peace and harmony.

Though, present company excepted since I don't know you at all, I am generalising here. I can believe you can see something in someone else, but saying that you can see it might provoke stuff in other people which they can't then resolve alone.

Yes, it can awaken things in others. The incongruity causes pain in others, and shouts at me. It isn't easy and I try to only do so in a loving and compassionate manner, which often results in me trying to help on the surface so they can advance themselves.

When I am at my best, I am not thinking about much of it. I am just comforting and soothing and such. I can help them process. I can help create a safe space. I can flood the space with love and understanding and acceptance.

Shouldn't you Fe see-ers let sleeping dogs lie? But maybe pointing them out is the Fe gifting?

Those sleeping dogs scream at me. It pains me. I can't ignore it.

I've heard this before, that disharmony actually HURTS Fe users. I struggle with this and slightly view it as manipulating me into silence, if I'm honest about it.
Does disharmony actually hurt? And why and in what way?

It causes pain as real as physical pain or heartache. So the pain of dealing with an angry person isn’t just the abuse they inflict on the other, but also the pain of the angry person.

I don't want to silence anyone else. I mostly silence my own feelings after all. I want others to have harmony, but not to minimize them or manipulate them, but so they can be happy.

So, I push positive vibes in public, to help others have inner peace and harmony, which results in better group harmony.

Yes, I guess this is the hidden danger - the agape kind of self sacrificial love can be carried out for years, without realising that loving oneself and getting ones own inner house in order and valuing oneself, are all part of the same loving package. Love others in the way that you love yourself, as Jesus said.

I will give you this one...realising that I was actually Fi-driven was revelatory.

But *you* deserve a space in which to process it, a place to be heard, even if only occasionally. That's about maintaining the balance of the universe...fairness.

Maybe one day.... maybe one day...

I came to this point, and my solution is to vent on a low level whatever emotion I am currently processing deeply, and using whatever low level excuse I can for the venting. Instead of bottling it up. So if the work photocopier is out of paper, I vent at it, for that, as a way of venting anger...or I vent fear, or shame, by telling low level stories about recent events. Kind of genuine emotional venting but attached to low level objects in real life, so I don't have to massively trust the listener about whatever the true issue is, in big emotional intense sessions... It's a workaround which helps me, and also it helps other people know me better because they see the vulnerable emotions (and who doesn't love that from an INTJ /dry>) and I have been told it makes me more authentic.

I now understand the venting, but what Fi users fail to get, is the venting carries that deeper emotions, and seriously messes with a Fe user.

This is the bit I had to think about the most. Beauty wasn't a concept I would relate to this discussion...and I never have thought about either Fi or Fe as having beauty.
Now that I have thought about it I suppose that the beauty of Fi is the independence of mind and the individuality of thought and personhood. The value is in the individuality. And they seek to empower each individual to energise their own selves, they seek to understand the other by encouraging the other to self-reveal.

I suppose the beauty of Fe is in the caring for the other person or the other people and seeing their needs and trying to meet their needs (the risk being that the recipient doesn't WANT their needs met in that way). And in trying to lift the mood of the other person. Or at least, alter their mood.

I am curious now, because I am not satisfied with my answers on this point. What do you think are the beauties of Fi and of Fe?

I see profound beauty with both.

Fi is very beautiful to me. There is a depth and intensity that glows, especially as the Fi user is fully engaged their Fi. There is a taste to it, for lack of a better word. There is an older NTJ man at my church, who has transformed into a powerful and seemingly fully developed Fi powerhouse, that he speaks with intense wisdom and compassion that only come through tremendous growth.

Fi women, especially Fi doms, have an feel to them that is just radiates. Looking back to my youth, I only dated FPs because no other type was attractive to me, though I didn't realize that at the time. The force of will is just tangible.

Fe has its beauty in connection. It is not being alone. It is looking at the world and seeing the crowd and feeling a place in the midst. There is unity. It is living in a land where everyone is joined.

It is tasting the feeling of the group and understanding how to impact it for the best of the most. But it is also finding the one who needs inclusion.....

 

[ceecee]

Yes, this annoys me about Fe users. They want to dig up my insides because they can see something is wrong or inconsistent, perhaps. But they then don't have a clue how to fix the emotional mess they have churned up, and furthermore they then tend to demand that I put it all away again unaided and don't churn publicly for the sake of group harmony; further I am supposed to thank them for their ministrations! Pah!
Though, present company excepted since I don't know you at all, I am generalising here. I can believe you can see something in someone else, but saying that you can see it might provoke stuff in other people which they can't then resolve alone.
Shouldn't you Fe see-ers let sleeping dogs lie? But maybe pointing them out is the Fe gifting?

There are shitty gifts. This is one of them. It feels like being violated.

 

[ceecee]

Yes. That makes sense but there is also the fear of not wanting to pry too much and making them feel too uncomfortable so I wait for a reaction or response from the other party. If my ISTJ friend directs the conversation elsewhere or seems to clam up, I will respect his boundaries and won't push the issue... It's never an issue of "not caring" or wanting to leave him vulnerable, it's more out of respect.

Thank you. I wish more Fe users felt this way and approached it in this manner.

 

[Rambling]

I absolutely love provoking thinking in others, because it is a path for growth. And I love when others provoke thinking and pondering in me, because it helps me grow.

Plus, I do much of my best thinking while interacting with others. ..... so this is very helpful...to me....

It is helpful to me, too. And as an introvert *I* am making an effort! I am valuing your liking for interaction by making an effort to reply fairly quickly.
I do learn from interacting but I tend to think things out on my own and then I have to make a different effort to put those results out there for the other people to look at them...because I have already done the mental work and thought it through. But a new perspective can be helpful after that, for me.
But the feeling of exposure, that is a fragile feeling for me. It's not easy to come into the public gaze, so to speak. I have learnt its importance and I don't eschew it as I once did. But it isn't easy for me to take the limelight.

For me, being Fe, turning inward has been about accepting a part of me that I absolutely rejected and repressed, which was extremely unhealthy. Listening to those inner feelings has been painful and challenging.

I totally grok this. I had some major issues I had just buried - for years - and I have faced them and opened myself up to their lessons and their pain. And their learning points and their results and their glory. The buried emotions were strong and very simple, but as the process has gone on the emotion has become more diffuse and more differentiated...that alone is a blessing. And I have found companionship along the way as well.

I don't dig them up. They are just there, as tangible to me your inner feelings are to you. All those disruptions to group harmony yell at me, before I address them. IME, so many people haven't even noticed their feelings and how they are impacting the them and the Fe world.

Okay, yes, I can be the grumpy one vibing my discontent childishly and refusing to play nicely in the meeting...but I am not usually like that - rather I think I am scrupulously honest and I try to reach for the logical solutions which lie beneath the Fi issues which are often the presenting issues.
If I dared, I'd ask what you see below my layers; I know what's there and I'd be curious what you are reaching for...but this is all the same a publicly visible thread, so I might get more than I bargained for! I have some awareness of what nuance I am vibing, and what nuances you're trying to send back...I am appreciative. If it's too personal to put boldly, then put it maybe into enneagram format, which enneagram type is very unhealthy in me, would you say? That's quite vague enough and gives you a 1/9 chance randomly!
That said, I'd say I can see into other people, too, but what I see by Fi and Ni would be different in flavour.

I don't want others to just shut them back up. I run into the fire way to often, burning myself in the process, to help others find peace and harmony.

That I think is utterly true, sir. And is further evidence that you need equally to receive care from others as well as give it, else you're just running on empty, and lonely yourself. Me, I could fake Fe enough to reach for that place...which raises the interesting question of the interplay between the Fi and the Fe styles... The Fi way would hurt you. I'm being open about that since I have no desire to manipulate you through nuance.

Yes, it can awaken things in others. The incongruity causes pain in others, and shouts at me. It isn't easy and I try to only do so in a loving and compassionate manner, which often results in me trying to help on the surface so they can advance themselves.

When I am at my best, I am not thinking about much of it. I am just comforting and soothing and such. I can help them process. I can help create a safe space. I can flood the space with love and understanding and acceptance.

Yes, I believe you on that. You try / succeed in making a space for the other and in helping them to trust you. Through feeling and valuing of them. And to you that's intuitive. I'd be probing for your motive, you know! Suspicious, me...but I don't think you have motive beyond a genuine desire to be there for the other person. I'd believe you, on my Fi reading of this forum.

Those sleeping dogs scream at me. It pains me. I can't ignore it.

Wow. That's real pain, right there. I can feel that through my Fi. Wow. Ouch. Okay, so it's not a *game* to you to uncover the nakedness of others, which is how immature Fe sometimes comes off. Wow. Okay, I'm convinced by this.
But Fi - I had to reach a place for myself where *I* wanted to grow and where *I* was willing to step out of the shadows...and willing to live with the uncomfortable process of growth over the short term, for long term gain. I found Pennebaker's book 'Opening up, the healing power of expressing emotion' very helpful in this regard. Real evidence that opening up and also, in what way to open up, is beneficial.

It causes pain as real as physical pain or heartache. So the pain of dealing with an angry person isn’t just the abuse they inflict on the other, but also the pain of the angry person.

Interestingly that is a pain which they do vibe, that's true, but I block it out because I am so interested in the logical source of their troubles. I am a scalpel, a probe, a data logger. Not a pain receptor, not a sponge. Crikey. Fe must hurt you. The pain of an angry person causes me to act, but it doesn't damage me like that. I just get nosy and turn into an emotional tin opener, to borrow Sayers legendary phrase from Gaudy Night (h/t [MENTION=20856]grey_beard[/MENTION]).

I don't want to silence anyone else. I mostly silence my own feelings after all. I want others to have harmony, but not to minimize them or manipulate them, but so they can be happy.

So, I push positive vibes in public, to help others have inner peace and harmony, which results in better group harmony.

Um. I would love to learn how to become a peacemaker.

Maybe one day.... maybe one day...

Duh. You have value *today*. I'd chide you on that point, however tall and broad you are. Can't you let another Fe user help you, like you help them? Reciprocal, like? What if you met *yourself* socially, would you not let yourself help yourself? That's all Fi is really, self helping self, I think, in many ways. Self trust, making a safe place for oneself...soliloquies.

I now understand the venting, but what Fi users fail to get, is the venting carries that deeper emotions, and seriously messes with a Fe user.

Crap. Maybe I'd better stop doing that...indeed, it has lessened over time I think. But it was necessary for me to stop bottling everything up. Pretending I was fine was strangling me, internally, through lack of authenticity.

I see profound beauty with both.

Fi is very beautiful to me. There is a depth and intensity that glows, especially as the Fi user is fully engaged their Fi. There is a taste to it, for lack of a better word. There is an older NTJ man at my church, who has transformed into a powerful and seemingly fully developed Fi powerhouse, that he speaks with intense wisdom and compassion that only come through tremendous growth.

Fi women, especially Fi doms, have an feel to them that is just radiates. Looking back to my youth, I only dated FPs because no other type was attractive to me, though I didn't realize that at the time. The force of will is just tangible.

Fe has its beauty in connection. It is not being alone. It is looking at the world and seeing the crowd and feeling a place in the midst. There is unity. It is living in a land where everyone is joined.

It is tasting the feeling of the group and understanding how to impact it for the best of the most. But it is also finding the one who needs inclusion.....

Yes. And Fi finds the specialness in each one, rather than the harmony of the complete rainbow. I remember realising that I valued each of my many friends for different and specific special things. I need all of them in different ways...but I do get that, sometimes I do feel held in a network of them. Or as though I need many flowers and plants of different colours and varieties in my emotional garden. Even if some of them do splash around in my emo-pond rather a lot!

You're a Christian? Me too.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

It is helpful to me, too. And as an introvert *I* am making an effort! I am valuing your liking for interaction by making an effort to reply fairly quickly.

I do learn from interacting but I tend to think things out on my own and then I have to make a different effort to put those results out there for the other people to look at them...because I have already done the mental work and thought it through. But a new perspective can be helpful after that, for me.

I used to dwell in my Ti too much, being in a NiTi loop for much of my adult life. Since I have fully accepted myself, I realized that I do much best thinking responding to others or serving others. It really has changed my way of thinking. I need the interaction to better understand my own viewpoints....

But the feeling of exposure, that is a fragile feeling for me. It's not easy to come into the public gaze, so to speak. I have learnt its importance and I don't eschew it as I once did. But it isn't easy for me to take the limelight.

I could never hide from the limelight.... I am not a person that is obscured from view, anyway. I spent years being uncomfortable and feeling I was an introvert, though. ...

I totally grok this. I had some major issues I had just buried - for years - and I have faced them and opened myself up to their lessons and their pain. And their learning points and their results and their glory. The buried emotions were strong and very simple, but as the process has gone on the emotion has become more diffuse and more differentiated...that alone is a blessing. And I have found companionship along the way as well.

I am glad you found growth and companionship.

And the self-acceptance process isn't fun, but there is real progress to be made there.

Okay, yes, I can be the grumpy one vibing my discontent childishly and refusing to play nicely in the meeting...but I am not usually like that - rather I think I am scrupulously honest and I try to reach for the logical solutions which lie beneath the Fi issues which are often the presenting issues.

Not playing nice is OK. I just hope people are responsible for their mess enough to try to limit the damage.

I have very good friends that are ETJs and they are a bit shocked to learn about the pain they inflict on their SOs. They are just so oblivious to this and I have tried to help them understand. I love talking with them because I appreciate their Te precision, but their undeveloped Fi leaves them blind, no matter they are great people.

If I dared, I'd ask what you see below my layers; I know what's there and I'd be curious what you are reaching for...but this is all the same a publicly visible thread, so I might get more than I bargained for! I have some awareness of what nuance I am vibing, and what nuances you're trying to send back...I am appreciative. If it's too personal to put boldly, then put it maybe into enneagram format, which enneagram type is very unhealthy in me, would you say? That's quite vague enough and gives you a 1/9 chance randomly!

That said, I'd say I can see into other people, too, but what I see by Fi and Ni would be different in flavour.

That I think is utterly true, sir. And is further evidence that you need equally to receive care from others as well as give it, else you're just running on empty, and lonely yourself. Me, I could fake Fe enough to reach for that place...which raises the interesting question of the interplay between the Fi and the Fe styles... The Fi way would hurt you. I'm being open about that since I have no desire to manipulate you through nuance.

I have been on a healing path for about a year. My ISFP wife unfortunately is on a much slower pace, so I don't have a place at home to unburden myself here. I am working hard to provide the environment for her to heal, as well as continue to shelter and assist my children.

I can dump on my therapist, of course..... as to friends and family, they were positively amazing to help me last year when I opened up to them last year, but I know they paid a high price.

When I let out my inner pain to others, it really overwhelms them. I push the positive vibes to stop the negative ones from coming out.

I hope my wife will get healthy enough to let me be truly open with her.....

Yes, I believe you on that. You try / succeed in making a space for the other and in helping them to trust you. Through feeling and valuing of them. And to you that's intuitive. I'd be probing for your motive, you know! Suspicious, me...but I don't think you have motive beyond a genuine desire to be there for the other person. I'd believe you, on my Fi reading of this forum.

I only want to help. I have no desire to manipulate or troll or cause pain.

Wow. That's real pain, right there. I can feel that through my Fi. Wow. Ouch. Okay, so it's not a *game* to you to uncover the nakedness of others, which is how immature Fe sometimes comes off. Wow. Okay, I'm convinced by this.

Sorry for burdening you. My wife unfortunately is pretty emotionally unhealthy person and so I get hit hard. I also have a few special needs children, so between them all, I can get messed up.

My childhood was full of pain, so I closed myself off to emotions, but that just put everything out of my conscious mind. I suffered for decades until awakening last year, with 30 years of accumulated pain hitting me at once. The pain was so overwhelming that I don't know how I kept my sanity, let alone my life.

Awakening left me very vulnerable to others, until I could build myself up enough to lessen the impact. Today, it is still painful, but it isn't as bad, it doesn't leave me with adrenaline flowing two hours after an episode, etc. I can usually avoid having even getting adrenaline triggered.

I don't think every Fe user experiences everything I do, at least not consciously. But I suspect that they unconsciously realized sometime growing up that external harmony avoided very real pain, so they made it a priority.

My ENTJ best friend's ISFJ wife is pretty sensitive to the pain of others, especially those in her family. My ENTP brother started getting hurt by crowds as he got older. I could go on about people with Fe in their stack being highly impacted by the emotions of others.

It isn't a choice. It isn't a game. It isn't "o, let's mess with others". It is all about fixing the external environment to find internal peace.

But Fi - I had to reach a place for myself where *I* wanted to grow and where *I* was willing to step out of the shadows...and willing to live with the uncomfortable process of growth over the short term, for long term gain. I found Pennebaker's book 'Opening up, the healing power of expressing emotion' very helpful in this regard. Real evidence that opening up and also, in what way to open up, is beneficial.

Brene Brown was game changing for me. I had never opened up to anyone, ever. No one ever knew my pain, not my parents, not my siblings, not my friends, not my wife of 20 years. I kept my pain on severe lockdown, but it was boiling over. When everything came to a head last year for 45th birthday (happy, birthday, here is a midlife crisis for you!"), I couldn't stay silent anymore.

But I learned how much my pain hurt people. When I opened up to my brother, he ended up drinking until he passed out. That was the night before I came on the forum. I opened up to a friend and she did the same thing. My therapist was broken after our sessions.

In many ways, the help and guidance I received here helped a lot. I wouldn't trade my growth of the last year for anything. I still marvel I didn't kill myself sometime over these last few years.....

Again, I really hope one day to be able to talk with my wife about some of these issues. We love each other....and I am really focused on creating the safe space for her. It is working, amazingly, even though she's refuses to go to a therapist.

So, maybe one day she will be healthy enough to take a little of my pain. Her Fi is amazing, just not developed, having been horribly scarred by childhood similar to me. In the meanwhile, her love brings me great peace....

Interestingly that is a pain which they do vibe, that's true, but I block it out because I am so interested in the logical source of their troubles. I am a scalpel, a probe, a data logger. Not a pain receptor, not a sponge. Crikey. Fe must hurt you. The pain of an angry person causes me to act, but it doesn't damage me like that. I just get nosy and turn into an emotional tin opener, to borrow Sayers legendary phrase from Gaudy Night (h/t [MENTION=20856]grey_beard[/MENTION]).

Um. I would love to learn how to become a peacemaker.

I receive and push emotions very easily. I blocked pain for decades, but it was still there. Until I could accept it, I couldn't grow from it.

Duh. You have value *today*. I'd chide you on that point, however tall and broad you are. Can't you let another Fe user help you, like you help them? Reciprocal, like? What if you met *yourself* socially, would you not let yourself help yourself? That's all Fi is really, self helping self, I think, in many ways. Self trust, making a safe place for oneself...soliloquies.

I have been turning F inward. It is awkward and annoying and difficult, but I have been benefitting from the process. It really helps. One day it might be all good....

Crap. Maybe I'd better stop doing that...indeed, it has lessened over time I think. But it was necessary for me to stop bottling everything up. Pretending I was fine was strangling me, internally, through lack of authenticity.

Other people being hurt means I just want to heal them. If they have pain, I feel it whether they express it or not. So, I wouldn't recommend holding it in, but I would recommend finding a good way to express and channel it. Be upset, just don't hurt some random stranger over it or your SO, if your SO didn't have anything to do with it

Yes. And Fi finds the specialness in each one, rather than the harmony of the complete rainbow. I remember realising that I valued each of my many friends for different and specific special things. I need all of them in different ways...but I do get that, sometimes I do feel held in a network of them. Or as though I need many flowers and plants of different colours and varieties in my emotional garden. Even if some of them do splash around in my emo-pond rather a lot!

I care about each person uniquely, but do so within the combined space, balancing the needs of the group and trying to achieve best outcomes for all.
What that then entails is, at times, directing things for individuals, before they are ready to understand why that is the best direction. I really do try never to step on toes or cause any harm (because any harm I cause reverberates to me). So, it is very tight balance, especially with my wife......

You're a Christian? Me too.

Awesome. In some ways, Fe feels like forced compliance with being my brother's keeper. As such, I need to learn to love and value myself more, so that I can increase in my ability to help others. It is the opposite of the Fi path, but each has its own value and worth.

 

[Rambling]

I used to dwell in my Ti too much, being in a NiTi loop for much of my adult life. Since I have fully accepted myself, I realized that I do much best thinking responding to others or serving others. It really has changed my way of thinking. I need the interaction to better understand my own viewpoints....

I find talking to other people goes two ways; either I am explaining my views in which case they seem very clear to me, or I am trying to think about and respond to the perish in front of me, in which case my thinking can get fuzzier...

I could never hide from the limelight.... I am not a person that is obscured from view, anyway. I spent years being uncomfortable and feeling I was an introvert, though. ...

Ha - I spent too long masquerading as an extrovert, which made me a grumpy and judgmental one!

I am glad you found growth and companionship.

I am very thankful...

And the self-acceptance process isn't fun, but there is real progress to be made there.

This has to be the understatement of the thread so far...I generally reach a point where I know something has to be dealt with and then I start off, but then I have to try and carry it through in cold blood...its certainly not easy at all!

Not playing nice is OK. I just hope people are responsible for their mess enough to try to limit the damage.

I think people who can't limit the damage are literally unaware of it, though I am not excusing them.

I have very good friends that are ETJs and they are a bit shocked to learn about the pain they inflict on their SOs. They are just so oblivious to this and I have tried to help them understand. I love talking with them because I appreciate their Te precision, but their undeveloped Fi leaves them blind, no matter they are great people.

Yes, I still don't really get this at all, in one ear and out the other. How would I know by looking, that you were hurting in this way? Fe people are so good at hiding everything socially...they don't wince or show pain like this...

I have been on a healing path for about a year. My ISFP wife unfortunately is on a much slower pace, so I don't have a place at home to unburden myself here. I am working hard to provide the environment for her to heal, as well as continue to shelter and assist my children.

You sound amazing. And one's nearest and dearest are not always the best equipped to cope...

I can dump on my therapist, of course..... as to friends and family, they were positively amazing to help me last year when I opened up to them last year, but I know they paid a high price.

When I let out my inner pain to others, it really overwhelms them. I push the positive vibes to stop the negative ones from coming out.

This is really interesting. When I first tried to talk to people they were doing this to me, trying to get me to apologise for hurting them, even though all I wanted them to do was listen to me...it wasn't like I was asking them to go through any pain like I had. I really felt those reactions were selfish and the people who reacted that way are not people I know any more - I have drifted away from them. But even looking back now I still think they could have tried to listen not downplay what I was saying and get aggressive with me because they didn't want to know. So yeah, it happened to me in that way in the last sometimes. Not everyone wants to help other people when it actually costs them something. They'd rather pretend the world is lovely and nobody gets hurt. Or something.

I realise there are ways and means, if I wasn't able to hold the space right then and there for someone I might try to fix another time, or some similar resort. But to say 'it can't have been that bad, tell me it wasn't since I find it upsetting' and downplay it in that way is duplicity and laziness, in my view, and that's what happened to me.

I hope my wife will get healthy enough to let me be truly open with her.....

Spouses are an important and strong bond, but I am not sure they are designed to be one's therapist.

I only want to help. I have no desire to manipulate or troll or cause pain.

Again, you are amazing. What do you get out of helping? Is it an E2 thing?

Sorry for burdening you. My wife unfortunately is pretty emotionally unhealthy person and so I get hit hard. I also have a few special needs children, so between them all, I can get messed up.

My childhood was full of pain, so I closed myself off to emotions, but that just put everything out of my conscious mind. I suffered for decades until awakening last year, with 30 years of accumulated pain hitting me at once. The pain was so overwhelming that I don't know how I kept my sanity, let alone my life.

Awakening left me very vulnerable to others, until I could build myself up enough to lessen the impact. Today, it is still painful, but it isn't as bad, it doesn't leave me with adrenaline flowing two hours after an episode, etc. I can usually avoid having even getting adrenaline triggered.

It's all a slow process of integrating everything back into yourself, at least that is how I have found it. Becoming back into who God made you, rather than trying to aim for becoming some idealised idol...

I don't think every Fe user experiences everything I do, at least not consciously. But I suspect that they unconsciously realized sometime growing up that external harmony avoided very real pain, so they made it a priority.

My ENTJ best friend's ISFJ wife is pretty sensitive to the pain of others, especially those in her family. My ENTP brother started getting hurt by crowds as he got older. I could go on about people with Fe in their stack being highly impacted by the emotions of others.

It isn't a choice. It isn't a game. It isn't "o, let's mess with others". It is all about fixing the external environment to find internal peace.

But they never say so...

Brene Brown was game changing for me. I had never opened up to anyone, ever. No one ever knew my pain, not my parents, not my siblings, not my friends, not my wife of 20 years. I kept my pain on severe lockdown, but it was boiling over. When everything came to a head last year for 45th birthday (happy, birthday, here is a midlife crisis for you!"), I couldn't stay silent anymore.

But I learned how much my pain hurt people. When I opened up to my brother, he ended up drinking until he passed out. That was the night before I came on the forum. I opened up to a friend and she did the same thing. My therapist was broken after our sessions.

It's really difficult to find someone who can hold the space for you and also finding the confidence to speak into that space. Both. I am still a learner and also I'm still very secretive...but I am more open and authentic than I used to be.

In many ways, the help and guidance I received here helped a lot. I wouldn't trade my growth of the last year for anything. I still marvel I didn't kill myself sometime over these last few years.....

Again, I really hope one day to be able to talk with my wife about some of these issues. We love each other....and I am really focused on creating the safe space for her. It is working, amazingly, even though she's refuses to go to a therapist.

So, maybe one day she will be healthy enough to take a little of my pain. Her Fi is amazing, just not developed, having been horribly scarred by childhood similar to me. In the meanwhile, her love brings me great peace....

Carry one another's burdens...and so fulfil the law of Christ.

I receive and push emotions very easily. I blocked pain for decades, but it was still there. Until I could accept it, I couldn't grow from it.


I have been turning F inward. It is awkward and annoying and difficult, but I have been benefitting from the process. It really helps. One day it might be all good....

Yes, it will... Keep on with the process and keep up the good work. Talking really helps, doesn't it?

Other people being hurt means I just want to heal them. If they have pain, I feel it whether they express it or not. So, I wouldn't recommend holding it in, but I would recommend finding a good way to express and channel it. Be upset, just don't hurt some random stranger over it or your SO, if your SO didn't have anything to do with it

I care about each person uniquely, but do so within the combined space, balancing the needs of the group and trying to achieve best outcomes for all.
What that then entails is, at times, directing things for individuals, before they are ready to understand why that is the best direction. I really do try never to step on toes or cause any harm (because any harm I cause reverberates to me). So, it is very tight balance, especially with my wife......

It sounds like you are carrying a lot for others while struggling to get anyone to take any of your own burdens.

Awesome. In some ways, Fe feels like forced compliance with being my brother's keeper. As such, I need to learn to love and value myself more, so that I can increase in my ability to help others. It is the opposite of the Fi path, but each has its own value and worth.

And you can let other Christians carry and keep you, too...its not all one way! I am being greatly helped right now, and I'd like to take some pain off you, kind or spiritually reciprocal, see? Next time you pray just pass it to Him and He can pass it on to me, okay? No need to get into specifics, but I will pray for you and I'm sure He will use that prayer to help you, see?

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Thank you so much for this post. It really touched my heart in ways that I can't express.

I think people who can't limit the damage are literally unaware of it, though I am not excusing them.

My wife is clueless about damage in the moment....and while she is aware later, she never makes amends or acknowledges the damage and barely acknowledges she was in error. What is shocking is how completely different she is when she is stressed versus not stressed. She has serious behavioral health issues, certainly, but it took me a long time to reconcile her two sides and understand the situation..... still, it seems bizaare

Yes, I still don't really get this at all, in one ear and out the other. How would I know by looking, that you were hurting in this way? Fe people are so good at hiding everything socially...they don't wince or show pain like this...

I try to never show it, until it gets too much. FJs tend to sense something, though.

Last year, when I was really struggling one morning, an older ESFJ gentleman saw me at church and pulled me away to talk with me. He sensed my pain no matter what I was trying to display.

I can't exaggerate the help I got from him. He was not more than acquaintance but he is someone I really respect, with a very developed Fe (he is a nurse by profession).

He still makes sure to look out for me and support me.....

When I lower my guard for just a second, my wife can sense my discomfort almost instantly. But she can't handle even 5%, so I try to keep it in. I wish she could just handle more....

You sound amazing. And one's nearest and dearest are not always the best equipped to cope...

This is really interesting. When I first tried to talk to people they were doing this to me, trying to get me to apologise for hurting them, even though all I wanted them to do was listen to me...it wasn't like I was asking them to go through any pain like I had. I really felt those reactions were selfish and the people who reacted that way are not people I know any more - I have drifted away from them. But even looking back now I still think they could have tried to listen not downplay what I was saying and get aggressive with me because they didn't want to know. So yeah, it happened to me in that way in the last sometimes. Not everyone wants to help other people when it actually costs them something. They'd rather pretend the world is lovely and nobody gets hurt. Or something.

I realise there are ways and means, if I wasn't able to hold the space right then and there for someone I might try to fix another time, or some similar resort. But to say 'it can't have been that bad, tell me it wasn't since I find it upsetting' and downplay it in that way is duplicity and laziness, in my view, and that's what happened to me.

Spouses are an important and strong bond, but I am not sure they are designed to be one's therapist.

I wouldn't want my wife to act as my therapist. I just would like her to be able see all of me and accept me and love me. I would love her to just hold me as I opened up and have her tell me she loved me....

Again, you are amazing. What do you get out of helping? Is it an E2 thing?

Thank you for saying that. I constantly struggle with worrying that I am a disappointment and failure.... I know God loves me, but fear I am really the unprofitable servant....

What do I get out of helping? I get peace. I am not enough of a 2 to strive for love. I really don't need most people I help to love me. I have talents and skills. I can't seem to be motivated to benefit myself. So, when I feel a need, I just want to resolve it. And it gets me peace....

It's all a slow process of integrating everything back into yourself, at least that is how I have found it. Becoming back into who God made you, rather than trying to aim for becoming some idealised idol...

I never tried to be an idealised version of me.... I just never really saw myself given my childhood. I thought I was great, lol....

Carry one another's burdens...and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Yes, it will... Keep on with the process and keep up the good work. Talking really helps, doesn't it?

It sounds like you are carrying a lot for others while struggling to get anyone to take any of your own burdens.

And you can let other Christians carry and keep you, too...its not all one way! I am being greatly helped right now, and I'd like to take some pain off you, kind or spiritually reciprocal, see? Next time you pray just pass it to Him and He can pass it on to me, okay? No need to get into specifics, but I will pray for you and I'm sure He will use that prayer to help you, see?

Thank you. I let others in a little, once in awhile. I know many are praying for me, for which I am grateful.

Of course, Jesus's love can heal all pains. His yoke is easy. And he only let's us have pain and adversity to help us grow..... our capacity to love is determined by the suffering we have processed....so Jesus has infinite capacity to love because he suffered infinite suffering. ...

 

[geedoenfj]

It's pretty cool to see how differently you, [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION], [MENTION=26281]geedoenfj[/MENTION] and I express our Fe. Plus, gender, age, and lifestyle differences probably further affect this.

I would lie if I say that I understand it enough to talk about it, I believe the more I say I don't know, the more I actually get to know, I think everyone of us described it as the part they understand from it, and obviously I got to understand the smallest piece of it hahaha that's why I'm just sitting back and reading your guys ideas [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION], [MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION] and [MENTION=26163]Protege[/MENTION]and learning from them, thank you so much

 

[Yama]

I want to use this last point to also stress that is the ESFJ/ENFJ user who has the desire to impact people/parade their values, according to Myers Briggs. They are usually more expressive/have the desire to express. Their thoughts/feelings take shape when they can express. Both ESFJs and ENFJs) are described as idealistic and seek ways to express their idealism. I think that people confuse even Ne/Fi or Fi/Ne for extroverted feeling often because people rely on tests that have been adapted from Myers Briggs to use in the corporate world... where they don't care for such a distinction. So they get rid of that when they make their tests for high schoolers and stuff. But the actual MBTI makes it clear that it is the Fe user that cares for self-expression more than the INFP or ISFP. IxFPs appear to be "judgy" ...looking for ways that match their internal idealism. IxFP and ExFJ probably have the same level of internal idealism in them... but the Fi user doesn't show their feeling (hence why a lot of them mistype other introverted types, such as INTP, if they rely on high school style personality tests instead of the actual MBTI book). When I was in high school, the psych test my guidance counselor gave me said I was INFP and the description was like "they are the inspirering/champions" or something like that. At that time, my extroverted feeling was really strong, so that is why I got such a result. So I think that those who think they are INFP due to high school style testing are a mixture of any of the xxFJ types, including the extroverts.

From the "You aren't an INFP" thread -- I was thinking about this today and thought it was worth bringing over to this thread as well. ExFJs, thoughts on this?

 

[Rambling]

Thank you so much for this post. It really touched my heart in ways that I can't express.

Sorry it's taken me a while to get back here. No real excuses just busyness and the introverted lack of inclination to talk when tired! Glad my comments were helpful to you.

My wife is clueless about damage in the moment....and while she is aware later, she never makes amends or acknowledges the damage and barely acknowledges she was in error. What is shocking is how completely different she is when she is stressed versus not stressed. She has serious behavioral health issues, certainly, but it took me a long time to reconcile her two sides and understand the situation..... still, it seems bizaare

I myself find it really hard to admit I was wrong, and I think this for me goes back to having parents who were downright perfectionist and very critical (for example I got 99% on a maths exam once, top of my year group, and the first remark when I told my mum was that she asked where the 1% had gone, and she wasn't joking...she denied even saying it later on but she did say it) and so I learnt to praise myself, internally, and drive myself and set my own goals and try to achieve them and so on...I really do get really itchy really quickly when criticised (or even if I feel criticised or even if I have misinterpreted what was said as criticism...) and simultaneously I am equally rubbish with genuinely receiving praise...

It's the tertiary Fi at work, I am now self aware enough to recognise it happening and I will tell people that I'm rubbish at praise, but on criticism I genuinely find it really difficult to hear it straight, especially if it has a grain of truth in it...I will likely dismiss it straight away if I possibly can, but otherwise I will literally agonise internally over it and dissect it internally for weeks and months afterwards, like acid on my insides, until I have come to terms with it and also preferably explained it away or dismissed it by blaming others to my own satisfaction.

I have no clue as to the damage this may cause anyone else, I literally cannot see it in the way you describe it, though if you say it exists I will believe you. My head just gets overloaded and I would say the best I can do is go formulaic at the people I care about, on this kind of thing. I avoid confrontations now by saying things like 'oh I'm very sorry, I didn't realise you felt like that, or felt that strongly....' And now I am older I know things are generally less black and white and I find it easier to say that I'm sorry without innerly feeling that I just trashed my self esteem and betrayed myself. Admitting I am wrong when I am the only person who ever says to me that I am right...that was a really tough internal nut to crack. But I do know that everything is really more grey than it looks and that people are fragile - I try to say I'm sorry or that I will think about what they have said or that I didn't mean to hurt them or that I do care about them or that I didn't look at it from their point of view and I really appreciate them as people and as friends... Like I say, that's about my top limit, formulaic style replies.

If you pushed me further than that and I deeply cared enough to show you I cared, you would provoke the childish and depressed reply 'okay I will just go boil my head...' Meaning that I really can't cope with any more...but that is incredibly vulnerable for me to even show anyone that level. See?

Of course, logically I'd care about logical outcomes, but I find people's emotional reactions and feelings impossible to predict quite so easily. So I probably didn't do anything wrong in my own head, so much as that I just have a blind spot.

If I tried to say I cared about you the person I had hurt and I thought that there was no logical way in which I could improve or rectify the situation going forwards, I would likely hit an internal Ni-Fi loop which if I showed you it would equate to near-hysteria, completely incomprehensible stuff like 'I never meant to hurt you, I didn't know that would happen, I didn't know you would feel that way, I don't know how to fix it, ... '

And beyond that I would think the next remark would be that I felt guilty, I was taking all the blame and I don't know why I even exist. Etc. I just don't go there mentally, to be honest.

I try to never show it, until it gets too much. FJs tend to sense something, though.

Last year, when I was really struggling one morning, an older ESFJ gentleman saw me at church and pulled me away to talk with me. He sensed my pain no matter what I was trying to display.

I can't exaggerate the help I got from him. He was not more than acquaintance but he is someone I really respect, with a very developed Fe (he is a nurse by profession).

He still makes sure to look out for me and support me.....

When I lower my guard for just a second, my wife can sense my discomfort almost instantly. But she can't handle even 5%, so I try to keep it in. I wish she could just handle more....

Going where I probably should not tread, but maybe she blames herself somehow for the disabilities of your kids? Maybe she thinks irrationally that if she had exercised better or eaten better in pregnancy - or maybe it's just hard for her to accept that you still love her despite her failure to produce perfect kids?

I panic very quickly because he is so important to me...now, if he is wrought up by an external situation like his work day or his toothache, I am good, but if it's anything related to me or the kids I feel it as blame of me rather than him expressing hurt. I used to feel bad that he could care, cook, change nappies, have more patience with the babies than I did, and I had to work on not feeling envious when they showed love to him.

If he wanted to talk about childhood hurt, I think I would struggle if it was in any way similar to mine...if I hadn't processed mine already. I dunno what it is you want her to listen to...I empathise greatly with people when I am listening, I find listening very hard work and I am introvert as well so I find contact time draining...that said, I would want him to feel that he could relax around me, not be on guard - I mean, there's being on guard not to sin, but you don't mean that.

I wouldn't want my wife to act as my therapist. I just would like her to be able see all of me and accept me and love me. I would love her to just hold me as I opened up and have her tell me she loved me....

I would guess that she knows more of you than you think she does. Does she open up and talk and you tell her you love her, when she is upset - maybe that would be a way in to that conversation one day when you and she are not tired, say how much you appreciate her just being there and being around and praise anything and everything you can about her...

I read once somewhere that to get what you want from someone else, you have to become the thing you seek...it is counterintuitive, they said. If you seek the other to be soft for you, then the way to do that is to become more comfortable with the parts of yourself which are soft, and being soft and the other person will feel safer mirroring that behaviour back towards you and being softer themselves.

Here you want her to hold you while you are soft, so maybe try developing your ability to feel comfortable with being strong and innerly caring for and cuddling your inner self in a strong way, and see whether she pushes back against your strength by becoming stronger to match you...try it in small ways though! I tried it myself in that I began to speak more openly about how I felt about things as they happened, and it does cause other people to talk to me more and verbalise more of how they are feeling.

Thank you for saying that. I constantly struggle with worrying that I am a disappointment and failure.... I know God loves me, but fear I am really the unprofitable servant....

What do I get out of helping? I get peace. I am not enough of a 2 to strive for love. I really don't need most people I help to love me. I have talents and skills. I can't seem to be motivated to benefit myself. So, when I feel a need, I just want to resolve it. And it gets me peace....

Duh, you are worthy of love and I am sure those around you do love you. Typical male unworthy attitude, here.

I like peace, too...I would like to learn to become a peacemaker. I am more of a stirrer, though! To me peace can sometimes get boring, and I like the whirl and ... Like riding a surfing wave...the thrill.

I never tried to be an idealised version of me.... I just never really saw myself given my childhood. I thought I was great, lol....

I think the skills you developed in childhood are great and I think you are now a great adult, husband and father. You just don't realise you are. Think about how you saw male adults outside of your family when you were a kid...now, your wife and kids and friends will see you as that. Not in the sense that you have to live up to an idealised role, but more like that is who you are, now. You are someone that someone loved enough to agree to marry and share their life and body with forever. You are a great dad doing what sounds like a hell of a tough job with disabled kids, you are working on your issues and facing your inner past and demons, you have ... Look, from what I see you have nothing wrong with you. No caveats. If you relax a bit, you might even find time to smile and watch a film with your arm around that nice wife of yours...

Thank you. I let others in a little, once in awhile. I know many are praying for me, for which I am grateful.

Of course, Jesus's love can heal all pains. His yoke is easy. And he only let's us have pain and adversity to help us grow..... our capacity to love is determined by the suffering we have processed....so Jesus has infinite capacity to love because he suffered infinite suffering. ...

Relax. You're overthinking. Not a bad thing for a Christian but it leads to the extreme cases such as Luther. Yes, you have suffered, and Christ suffered too, and your suffering is sort of inside His suffering. There's only two experiences really, that of making him suffer (Father, forgive them for they don't know what they are doing) and the experience of suffering at the hands of other humans, which is what He went through, and our suffering brings us into that experience in Him. So no experience is outside of Him. He is close to the broken-hearted, he doesn't break a bruised reed and the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart He will not despise.

I dunno why I seem to have turned into your cheerleader...but anyway, I've said it now, and I do think it. Logically, I think it from what you have said.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Sorry it's taken me a while to get back here. No real excuses just busyness and the introverted lack of inclination to talk when tired! Glad my comments were helpful to you.

I myself find it really hard to admit I was wrong, and I think this for me goes back to having parents who were downright perfectionist and very critical (for example I got 99% on a maths exam once, top of my year group, and the first remark when I told my mum was that she asked where the 1% had gone, and she wasn't joking...she denied even saying it later on but she did say it) and so I learnt to praise myself, internally, and drive myself and set my own goals and try to achieve them and so on...I really do get really itchy really quickly when criticised (or even if I feel criticised or even if I have misinterpreted what was said as criticism...) and simultaneously I am equally rubbish with genuinely receiving praise...

It's the tertiary Fi at work, I am now self aware enough to recognise it happening and I will tell people that I'm rubbish at praise, but on criticism I genuinely find it really difficult to hear it straight, especially if it has a grain of truth in it...I will likely dismiss it straight away if I possibly can, but otherwise I will literally agonise internally over it and dissect it internally for weeks and months afterwards, like acid on my insides, until I have come to terms with it and also preferably explained it away or dismissed it by blaming others to my own satisfaction.

I have no clue as to the damage this may cause anyone else, I literally cannot see it in the way you describe it, though if you say it exists I will believe you. My head just gets overloaded and I would say the best I can do is go formulaic at the people I care about, on this kind of thing. I avoid confrontations now by saying things like 'oh I'm very sorry, I didn't realise you felt like that, or felt that strongly....' And now I am older I know things are generally less black and white and I find it easier to say that I'm sorry without innerly feeling that I just trashed my self esteem and betrayed myself. Admitting I am wrong when I am the only person who ever says to me that I am right...that was a really tough internal nut to crack. But I do know that everything is really more grey than it looks and that people are fragile - I try to say I'm sorry or that I will think about what they have said or that I didn't mean to hurt them or that I do care about them or that I didn't look at it from their point of view and I really appreciate them as people and as friends... Like I say, that's about my top limit, formulaic style replies.

If you pushed me further than that and I deeply cared enough to show you I cared, you would provoke the childish and depressed reply 'okay I will just go boil my head...' Meaning that I really can't cope with any more...but that is incredibly vulnerable for me to even show anyone that level. See?

Of course, logically I'd care about logical outcomes, but I find people's emotional reactions and feelings impossible to predict quite so easily. So I probably didn't do anything wrong in my own head, so much as that I just have a blind spot.

If I tried to say I cared about you the person I had hurt and I thought that there was no logical way in which I could improve or rectify the situation going forwards, I would likely hit an internal Ni-Fi loop which if I showed you it would equate to near-hysteria, completely incomprehensible stuff like 'I never meant to hurt you, I didn't know that would happen, I didn't know you would feel that way, I don't know how to fix it, ... '

And beyond that I would think the next remark would be that I felt guilty, I was taking all the blame and I don't know why I even exist. Etc. I just don't go there mentally, to be honest.

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing all that. That is all very foreign to me.

I am going to need to think on that more.

Going where I probably should not tread, but maybe she blames herself somehow for the disabilities of your kids? Maybe she thinks irrationally that if she had exercised better or eaten better in pregnancy - or maybe it's just hard for her to accept that you still love her despite her failure to produce perfect kids?

The our special needs children were adopted. As to my wife, her fears are much deeper than being a mother and any related failures (though she has those).

She really has a deficit of self-love, related to childhood. She has very difficult things to face and she has avoided it for 35 years.... I don't know if she can ever face it..... it will likely break her in the process....

I panic very quickly because he is so important to me...now, if he is wrought up by an external situation like his work day or his toothache, I am good, but if it's anything related to me or the kids I feel it as blame of me rather than him expressing hurt. I used to feel bad that he could care, cook, change nappies, have more patience with the babies than I did, and I had to work on not feeling envious when they showed love to him.

Yeah, well I relate to that. She gets overly worked up over some things, even me helping out. The children only want me to put them to bed, but I have been doing it from birth. She appreciates the break (even rejoices in it) but expresses disappointment that they prefer me.

If he wanted to talk about childhood hurt, I think I would struggle if it was in any way similar to mine...if I hadn't processed mine already. I dunno what it is you want her to listen to...I empathise greatly with people when I am listening, I find listening very hard work and I am introvert as well so I find contact time draining...that said, I would want him to feel that he could relax around me, not be on guard - I mean, there's being on guard not to sin, but you don't mean that.

I would just like her to listen to me talk about what I have gone through the past year, to understand the growth I experienced, and to accept that I struggle enormously each day. If I show her a fraction of the pain inside, if I appear at all weak, she doesn't want to hear it, doesn't listen, ignores what I say, and starts judging me rather than accepting me. She needs me to be her rock and her rock can't have cracks in it......

I would guess that she knows more of you than you think she does. Does she open up and talk and you tell her you love her, when she is upset - maybe that would be a way in to that conversation one day when you and she are not tired, say how much you appreciate her just being there and being around and praise anything and everything you can about her...

I read once somewhere that to get what you want from someone else, you have to become the thing you seek...it is counterintuitive, they said. If you seek the other to be soft for you, then the way to do that is to become more comfortable with the parts of yourself which are soft, and being soft and the other person will feel safer mirroring that behaviour back towards you and being softer themselves.

I listen to her for hours. I help her and comfort her. She can't do it back and it is as if I am speaking a foreign language.

So, I am patient. She is getting healthier and I can just assist her. But it is very slow going given that she seems unable to look at herself truthfully. I get the problem because I was there too last year.

But it is draining being the emotional life raft for everyone else. .....

Here you want her to hold you while you are soft, so maybe try developing your ability to feel comfortable with being strong and innerly caring for and cuddling your inner self in a strong way, and see whether she pushes back against your strength by becoming stronger to match you...try it in small ways though! I tried it myself in that I began to speak more openly about how I felt about things as they happened, and it does cause other people to talk to me more and verbalise more of how they are feeling.

I try all that. It works .... to a point. Again, I see a process, but it is a long one. .....

Duh, you are worthy of love and I am sure those around you do love you. Typical male unworthy attitude, here.

They love me. My parents loved me in a very limited way, I guess. My wife spent years full of hate for me (transferred to me so she wouldn't have to deal with truths she can't face) that consumed her love for me. The hate is gone now, but indifference of my parents and the transferred hate from my wife really took a toil.

I like peace, too...I would like to learn to become a peacemaker. I am more of a stirrer, though! To me peace can sometimes get boring, and I like the whirl and ... Like riding a surfing wave...the thrill.

Life already has enough drama. Existing in a sea of other people's emotions constantly is plenty of drama.... I have no need to stir a pot....

I think the skills you developed in childhood are great and I think you are now a great adult, husband and father. You just don't realise you are. Think about how you saw male adults outside of your family when you were a kid...now, your wife and kids and friends will see you as that. Not in the sense that you have to live up to an idealised role, but more like that is who you are, now. You are someone that someone loved enough to agree to marry and share their life and body with forever. You are a great dad doing what sounds like a hell of a tough job with disabled kids, you are working on your issues and facing your inner past and demons, you have ... Look, from what I see you have nothing wrong with you. No caveats. If you relax a bit, you might even find time to smile and watch a film with your arm around that nice wife of yours...

I wish I could accept myself so much.....

Relax. You're overthinking. Not a bad thing for a Christian but it leads to the extreme cases such as Luther. Yes, you have suffered, and Christ suffered too, and your suffering is sort of inside His suffering. There's only two experiences really, that of making him suffer (Father, forgive them for they don't know what they are doing) and the experience of suffering at the hands of other humans, which is what He went through, and our suffering brings us into that experience in Him. So no experience is outside of Him. He is close to the broken-hearted, he doesn't break a bruised reed and the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart He will not despise.

Some days I just wonder.....

I dunno why I seem to have turned into your cheerleader...but anyway, I've said it now, and I do think it. Logically, I think it from what you have said.

The power of Fe . It pulls and tugs whether I want it or not.

Again thank you for all your words. They mean a lot.....

 

[Rambling]

She really has a deficit of self-love, related to childhood. She has very difficult things to face and she has avoided it for 35 years.... I don't know if she can ever face it..... it will likely break her in the process....

I would just like her to listen to me talk about what I have gone through the past year, to understand the growth I experienced, and to accept that I struggle enormously each day. If I show her a fraction of the pain inside, if I appear at all weak, she doesn't want to hear it, doesn't listen, ignores what I say, and starts judging me rather than accepting me. She needs me to be her rock and her rock can't have cracks in it......

I listen to her for hours. I help her and comfort her. She can't do it back and it is as if I am speaking a foreign language.

So, I am patient. She is getting healthier and I can just assist her. But it is very slow going given that she seems unable to look at herself truthfully. I get the problem because I was there too last year.

But it is draining being the emotional life raft for everyone else. .....

They love me. My parents loved me in a very limited way, I guess. My wife spent years full of hate for me (transferred to me so she wouldn't have to deal with truths she can't face) that consumed her love for me. The hate is gone now, but indifference of my parents and the transferred hate from my wife really took a toil.

Again thank you for all your words. They mean a lot.....

She sounds quite Enneagram 1, that projection of the wrong onto the other in order to feel the right as part of oneself...a separation.

There's lots I could say, but one thing sticks out a mile here to me, which is that you are sort of mothering her, the Greek word is storge love, the unconditional love and compassion of a mother for a child...

And what you want from her is also storge love, unconditional acceptance and listening and absorption of the pain of the other.

So...you are playing the script of the caring listening mother and don't know how to be the weaker child part around her, but with others such as on this forum you can explore being that part of your personality and you feel that as healthy growth, is what I'm hearing from what you've said, is that correct?

And then she is only able to play the weaker part, for reasons possibly unknown but you think it would break her to be forced to face them too soon.

It appears that she is comfortable relating to you as the weaker party and she gets something out of that which allows her to feel safe.

So you can get 'parental' type advice and support on this forum, which helps you, or from the guy at your church you mentioned. Those activities may threaten her if she is possssive of you, so that might make it difficult to tell her about them.

What I think you could do is to try to set one or two small boundaries which indirectly relate to your own weakness and also relate to the role of being a husband rather than her parent or father figure.

I don't know exactly how this would be applied, but one boundary you could set would be say that you want to listen to her today but you can only listen to her until X o'clock because you are too tired to stay up late tonight and you have to get up early for work. Or you are feeling a little unwell and need a good nights sleep. That avoids saying its emotionally draining. It's important to say that at the point when the conversation starts, not halfway through it or when you are both already tired. And when time is up just stay calm and say very little and go to bed and stay quiet.

See if you can do that - if you could even do that once a week that would be a win for you in terms of being more in control of her emotions and demands.

Secondly do some sort of manly-husband things which a father wouldn't do...I don't know what you do already or what your finances are, but an unexpected bunch of flowers or a gesture which is plainly romantic and which she as a female can accept or reject...woo her a little in that way, take her to a film or out for a quiet sandwich and when she starts downloading start staring meaningfully at her and saying things like 'sorry what was that you said I was thinking how pretty the sunlight makes your hair...' I don't know how to translate that into your context but she has a role as your wife not your child and particularly if her problems are not related to sexuality in childhood, you may be able to alter the balance a little bit so you spend a bit more time every week behaving like a couple and just a bit less time behaving like a parent and child. After all, if she has the full gaze of an interested guy for showing her problems, she will continue to show off her problems since that's clearly got your full male attention...

Not easy and I continue to work on my own issues...they are different but I keep learning. I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[Norrsken]

For me, its about caring for someone else deeply. I have so much compassion and empathy, it'll be the death of me. I have always enjoyed being someone else's counselor or sounding board, a shoulder for them to cry on. My heart bleeds even for strangers or those I do not know very well, personally. The awkward moment is when, of course, I need time alone to recharge, and need to find an excuse to get away from the other person without hurting their feelings.

 

[Yama]

My Fe is a slave to my Si. It's there, but nothing like dom Fe. I'm heavily affected by social atmospheres (which I guess means I must be decent at reading them too). I'm decent at supporting other people. I don't "live to serve" and while I feel socially obligated to help others at times, it's usually not because I actually care about others' problems... not unless they're actually close to me. And for some reason people keep fucking telling me their life stories whenever I leave the house and I feel like I cant cut them off and leave because it's rude. Fe is weird.

 

[Numbly Aware]

My Fe is a slave to my Si. It's there, but nothing like dom Fe. I'm heavily affected by social atmospheres (which I guess means I must be decent at reading them too). I'm decent at supporting other people. I don't "live to serve" and while I feel socially obligated to help others at times, it's usually not because I actually care about others' problems... not unless they're actually close to me. And for some reason people keep fucking telling me their life stories whenever I leave the house and I feel like I cant cut them off and leave because it's rude. Fe is weird.

Rofl

 

[Norrsken]

And for some reason people keep fucking telling me their life stories whenever I leave the house and I feel like I cant cut them off and leave because it's rude. Fe is weird.

Yooooooo, that's insane that you wrote this. D;
I think Fe users have that aura around them that can make strangers come to you with their life stories with ease.

It can be unnerving sometimes.

 

[neuskens]

To me, I see it as a sort of "social logic" set within several sets of social rules to get a desired result.

Results could easily include just not wanting to offend the other person or to gain group harmony.

This is what I was thinking these days. Fe's other axis' side is Ti, so there is a set of standards that pretty much conceived the Fe based action. I've heard it say (and even I said it) that SFJs lack logical thinking when in fact >>we<< lack a more profound vision and grasping of where those motivations come from. SFJs have logic, OBVIOUSLY, but it's applied in a different perspective, with different goals (in their case, people-harmony logic).

 

[neuskens]

Yooooooo, that's insane that you wrote this. D;
I think Fe users have that aura around them that can make strangers come to you with their life stories with ease.

It can be unnerving sometimes.

Jeez, yes hahdhashd. I have tertiary Fe and can say I have developed it quite nicely, thanks to my lovely ESFJ mom and some common sense. Pair that up with my interest in understanding how people work and willingness to listen and, BAM, I have newly-met people exposing their hard-kept truths to me.
Thank God for this blessing tbh

 

[Yama]

Jeez, yes hahdhashd. I have tertiary Fe and can say I have developed it quite nicely, thanks to my lovely ESFJ mom and some common sense. Pair that up with my interest in understanding how people work and willingness to listen and, BAM, I have newly-met people exposing their hard-kept truths to me.
Thank God for this blessing tbh

In incredibly refreshing to hear an NTP compliment their SFJ mom instead of bitch about them for once.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I may be an outlier because I only identify with specific aspects of Fe and not the entire definition. If I am an FJ, then my sense of Fe is strongly altered by Ni.

I experience the aspects of Fe that fall outside of social norms, because the norms tend to feel arbitrary, overly demanding, and filled with many details and expectations I cannot keep up with. I have a lot of trouble relating to strongly normative people, and have always gravitated towards anyone unusual, neuro-atypical, creative, or possessing any quality that results in them falling outside the norm.

What I do experience is a continual resonance of feelings and vibes around me in such a way that I can't shut them out. When I'm in competitive, ego-invested and/or hostile environments I become physically sick because I can feel all of the conflicting emotions, have sense of the hopelessness of it ever resolving, and internalize the negativity whether it was directed at me or not. I find those environments to feel like a closet being stuffed with balloons, each one representing the perspective and ego of each individual. For this reason I do not enjoy group settings, and tend to avoid crowds altogether. The very reason I cannot process groups and crowds is because I can feel a lot of vibes in the external environment. I have no idea what it is like to feel the vibes, but to be able to filter it out and thrive in groups.

I enjoy working individually with people and can feel a lot in response, so I tend to be aware of what is going on in my gut when I'm talking to someone. It is true I don't have a clean slate when getting an impression because it is a combination of my own emotional states and perceptions combined with those of others, so I try to find ways to parse out the two. I have a strong drive to stabilize the egos and emotions of other individual people I am speaking with because I can often feel anxiety, self-doubt, and other tentative or negative emotions within them. I enjoy complimenting people because I can feel an increase in strength inside of them. There are usually wonderful aspects to each individual, so it is helpful to look intently to see these, and I admire people who can give specific, personal compliments and so try to do the same.

I feel I am best at understanding the misunderstood, so I especially like talking to unusual people and always have. I listen and make sense of how they use language, and try to get my head around how they see the world. While there are some commonalities among humans, there are some incredible differences as well, so I find people mostly interesting in that respect.

I feel like I still make a lot of mistakes socially, and so am not a good model for "Fe" in general. I have a number of teacher friends strong in Fe and they know how to manage groups, how to win over the natural leader to assure the group dynamic, what to say to maintain the healthy order among people. I admire those abilities, could recite them on a test, but still fail to apply them. I feel like I can see a lot of group dynamics, but am forever an onlooker, somehow outside of it an unable to apply any of the principles.

So, for myself, the sense of Fe is 1) involuntarily internalizing emotions and vibes from individuals and 2) seeing and understanding complex social dynamics without much ability to apply what I observe. I am not a typical Fe user in that both social norms and group interactions are alienating for me, and they are not my home.