[Fi] Fi, Why Are You So Dependent On Others?

[Mal12345]

clearly a byproduct of unbalanced members, due to bad site management

Clearly? Are you certain it's so clear? Because clearly it's not.

 

[1487610420]

Clearly? Are you certain it's so clear? Because clearly it's not.

evidently

 

[Starry]

I don't remember saying anything about the true nature of Fi. And anyway I specified, later on in this thread, that this series is about neurotics. I made one about neurotic Ti and nobody criticized a thing. I made one about Fe and received a lot of complaints. I made one about Te and nobody complained. The only complaints had to do with Fe and Fi threads.

So it's obvious what's going on here.

I don't understand this response. In no way did I ask you to make this emotionally okay for me. I'm already okay with it and while I may eventually complain if you continue to insert an alternative meaning into my posts when I'm communicating with you in earnest (having our meaning manipulated makes sane Fi, batshit Fi...the full spectrum of Fi neurotic)...


As a neurotic Fi aux myself ...I am asking you out of interest in an unoffended at this time, straight-forward manner...

How do I become a dependent, manipulative person? If the true nature of introverted judging is introverted... and when unhealthy is usually depicted as turning away from others even more, rejecting, isolating, all the classic e4 and e5 schitzo stuff I'm currently staring down as a highly possible part of my future...

What makes neurotic Fi go the course of what looks like neurotic Fe? I'm seriously asking this.

 

[Mal12345]

I don't understand this response. In no way did I ask you to make this emotionally okay for me.

???We're obviously not on the same wavelength. I'm from Earth. Are you? I'm from a technologically advance underground city that is older than your civilization and has been kept secret for millennia. We've been watching you since you were in your primitive caveman days, and have done some things to prompt more evolutionary steps, such as planting ideas in the brains of Newton, Einstein, and other great thinkers.

I say this because I know you won't believe it, so I know the underground city will remain secret. Also, our scientists have implanted in the human genome a profound skepticism which keeps humans ignorant of us until the day we decide to make it otherwise.

I'm already okay with it and while I may eventually complain if you continue to insert an alternative meaning into my posts when I'm communicating with you in earnest (having our meaning manipulated makes sane Fi, batshit Fi...the full spectrum of Fi neurotic)...


As a neurotic Fi aux myself ...I am asking you out of interest in an unoffended at this time, straight-forward manner...

How do I become a dependent, manipulative person? If the true nature of introverted judging is introverted... and when unhealthy is usually depicted as turning away from others even more, rejecting, isolating, all the classic e4 and e5 schitzo stuff I'm currently staring down as a highly possible part of my future...

What makes neurotic Fi go the course of what looks like neurotic Fe? I'm seriously asking this.

The complaining aspect is something I've mentioned before regarding Fi, and I think it's just F in general. But I don't know if it's something that goes back down through human history or if it's just an aspect of being a Millennial, pampered and protected especially with regard to their feelings.

Ok, I'll get serious for just a minute. To "complain" indicates to me that there is a dependency going on. I think it has to do with Fi, but it has been made stronger in the present generation due to cultural memes and methods. To "complain" in this circumstance means you're, let's say, frustrated, unhappy, angry, or whatever negativity presents itself to your mind when reading something I wrote. In that case, it would be "to insert an alternative meaning into my posts." This indicates that you're dependent upon others (I suspect, not just including me) to state things your way, in a way that is pleasing to you (or at least not unpleasing).

If you're neurotic (which is your judgment call to make, not mine), then my un-asked for advice is to at least try to keep an open mind to ideas that try to take you out of your present mental framework of just those things you personally have read and heard about.

 

[Mal12345]

"What makes neurotic Fi go the course of what looks like neurotic Fe? I'm seriously asking this."

There is [MENTION=14179]SolitaryWalker[/MENTION]'s theory which he presented in his book.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Just to give you an example of my own experience of what I would deem unhealthy Fi... I have feared for sometime now...so much so I am taking active measures not to let myself slip away... that if I don't learn the importance of dependence (interdependence)... I will continue on this fast-track to living in a shanty I've built out of plywood, cardboard and car tires in the middle of fuckin nowheresville. And I will become an animal hoarder I sorta envision but that's neither here nor there.

In order to not eventually hate everyone on the planet...I'm trying to learn how to compromise and manipulate...or rather negotiate.


What am I missing here regarding the true nature of Fi?

I find myself with another nit to pick*. This actually sounds a whole lot more like unhealthy e5 (or e5 disintegration of e7?) than Fi. If even the slightest bit of 'dependence' means I'm in any way obligated to 'listen' to others tell me I'm something I'm not, then "F#ck you, interdependence!" I see a bit of 'being true to oneself' in it, but (as has been discussed aplenty) I see it as one of the forms of 'be true to oneself' that Fi only thinks it has some kind of monopoly on (and why people mistype as Fi) because of many Fi descriptions. At any rate, I find the above description (your quote) actually describes me quite well- and I don't think anyone contests my FJ status. So just, I don't know, do with that what you will.

I don't especially see anything that resembles my experience of Fi dom/aux in Mal's description. I didn't really see anything that resembled my own experience in his Fe thread either- it seemed like a Frankenstein piece of feedback pieced together from various stereotypes that I never especially related to to begin with. (I'm not trying to be inflammatory or dismissive, but "Frankenstein piece of feedback" is really what it seemed like.) I didn't get wound up about it like some other people seemed to, but I didn't relate to it at all and didn't understand the reason he was posting it. It seems like this thread is having the same effect on Fi dom/aux (some getting wound up, others just not understanding why he's posting it).

The fact that his Fe and Fi threads are getting a bigger reaction than Te and Ti threads- omg, if only there were some way of knowing that's what would have happened.... (And I'm not affirming the 'wisdom' of Ts in pointing out the predictability. I maintain it isn't 'wisdom' so much as it is deafness/blindness to interpersonal noise. But let's let them take as much pride in it as they want, because why not.)

My own experience, if I were to describe my own observations of the commonality I perceive to 'unhealthy Fi', it would sound very different from what he describes in the op. But it also looks different to me from the above quoted thing. I've seen plenty of FPs rationalize their way to ends way above that plywood shanty, without much compunction about using people extensive reflection on interdependence.


*There's a way of looking this where it's your fault for encouraging me to pick nits.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Ok, I'll get serious for just a minute. To "complain" indicates to me that there is a dependency going on. I think it has to do with Fi, but it has been made stronger in the present generation due to cultural memes and methods. To "complain" in this circumstance means you're, let's say, frustrated, unhappy, angry, or whatever negativity presents itself to your mind when reading something I wrote. In that case, it would be "to insert an alternative meaning into my posts." This indicates that you're dependent upon others (I suspect, not just including me) to state things your way, in a way that is pleasing to you (or at least not unpleasing).

Okay, this I can see. (The only problem is that I relate to this too, more than anything you posted about Fe- and I suspect that's true for most INFJs. So stick that where the sun doesn't shine. I'm referring of course to your underground chalkboard in your technology advanced city.)

 

[ThaumaturgicTheorist]

The fact that his Fe and Fi threads are getting a bigger reaction than Te and Ti threads- omg, if only there were some way of knowing that's what would have happened.... (And I'm not affirming the 'wisdom' of Ts in pointing out the predictability. I maintain it isn't 'wisdom' so much as it is deafness/blindness to interpersonal noise. But let's let them take as much pride in it as they want, because why not.)

1. Feelers gonna feel.

2. Most Thinker weaknesses aren't really weaknesses. The Ti thread didn't even sound dysfunctional imo.

 

[Mal12345]

Okay, this I can see. (The only problem is that I relate to this too, more than anything you posted about Fe- and I suspect that's true for most INFJs. So stick that where the sun doesn't shine. I'm referring of course to your underground chalkboard in your technology advanced city.)

We've created our own "sun," if you will. It's artificial, but it doesn't emit any harmful rays and so we don't need an ozone barrier in the atmosphere.

 

[Starry]

[MENTION=13589]Mal12345[/MENTION] I didn't ask you to make me jealous about your current living arrangements and status within that realm.

Like, Z Buck I can better see what is being expressed but will need to consider it more and am wondering if I might eventually find words that would better describe things in the way I would describe things haha. There's something there of me.
[MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION] I only skimmed your post so far and will read it again for more meaning but you might have been triggered there.
I wish I had the attention span to be as thorough as so many of you here but I just can't. I see myself as writing in a form of shorthand really with only about half of 6 or less people that will read any given post of mine understanding the language born out of impairment and half saying to themselves once again "Starry is so fuckin weird I wish someone would like ban her or something."

I see myself as being strongly e4 and e5 through a variety of connections and yes with 5 I will routinely talk about my Howard Hughes method of integration. But I also mentioned them as a way to get Mal to understand why I wasn't understanding. Those two points are and will always be your Introverted Judgment hotspots. And while I hate to break it to you...people often think of you guys as stubborn, uncompromising, choosing self over others, basically just one big collection of arrogant bastards that suck the fun out of everything haha okay I'm kidding. But dependent and manipulative are not the first two traits that come to mind and I thought Mal would get my confusion without me spelling it out that way.

I'm not entirely sure...but in spite of the shorthand I was being very candid. Where I'm at "always true to herself" = eventual shanty livin. And at least where I'm from...a female living alone in a cardboard shanty <-isn't all that badass. Now, the part of me that actually knows how to build a shanty out of garbage and is totally cool with eating berries only for the rest of my life <-that's my unhealthy connection to e5. But "uncompromising to where it might be starting to work against me idk" <-that in me is Fi.


And none of this has anything to do with Fe.

*************

eta -
Is it because people including myself were saying "dependent and manipulative" sounds more like neurotic Fe? If we are talking about the more traditional, identifiable expressions of those two qualities/coping strategies then I stand by my own thinking in this regard. I do think it is more likely that Fe would fall into a pattern of dependence and manipulation at unhealthy levels just as I think it would be more likely for Fi to fall into a pattern of rejection and isolation when at unhealthy levels. To me it is just the path of least resistance but not all will go that way. I also don't see dependence and manipulation as automatically cancelling out being uncompromising. My Mom is entirely dependent on people serving her and is very true to herself all while appearing not to be.

 

[Mal12345]

[MENTION=13589]Mal12345[/MENTION] I didn't ask you to make me jealous about your current living arrangements and status within that realm.

Eh? What are you talking about? When have I tried to make anybody jealous? That's never been a thing with me.

Like, Z Buck I can better see what is being expressed but will need to consider it more and am wondering if I might eventually find words that would better describe things in the way I would describe things haha. There's something there of me.

I have learned to speak the language of spiders.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

[MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION] I only skimmed your post so far and will read it again for more meaning but you might have been triggered there.
I wish I had the attention span to be as thorough as so many of you here but I just can't. I see myself as writing in a form of shorthand really with only about half of 6 or less people that will read any given post of mine understanding the language born out of impairment and half saying to themselves once again "Starry is so fuckin weird I wish someone would like ban her or something."

I see myself as being strongly e4 and e5 through a variety of connections and yes with 5 I will routinely talk about my Howard Hughes method of integration. But I also mentioned them as a way to get Mal to understand why I wasn't understanding. Those two points are and will always be your Introverted Judgment hotspots. And while I hate to break it to you...people often think of you guys as stubborn, uncompromising, choosing self over others, basically just one big collection of arrogant bastards that suck the fun out of everything haha okay I'm kidding. But dependent and manipulative are not the first two traits that come to mind and I thought Mal would get my confusion without me spelling it out that way.

I'm not entirely sure...but in spite of the shorthand I was being very candid. Where I'm at "always true to herself" = eventual shanty livin. And at least where I'm from...a female living alone in a cardboard shanty <-isn't all that badass. Now, the part of me that actually knows how to build a shanty out of garbage and is totally cool with eating berries only for the rest of my life <-that's my unhealthy connection to e5. But "uncompromising to where it might be starting to work against me idk" <-that in me is Fi.


And none of this has anything to do with Fe.

I don't think I'm feeling defensive though? It's entirely possible I misunderstood what you were trying to get across, but I don't think it triggered me (if that even matters). And of course it's possible I'm mishearing all of it. But when you say "uncompromising to where it might be starting to work against me idk"- do you see that as something that happens to SFPs as much as NFPs?

Also I'm confused about the bolded- when you say "you guys", you mean Js (or FJs, or whatever specific kind of J)? Or are you talking about FPs? If you're confused about the bolded as well, I'll accept a good haiku in lieu of a response.

that if I don't learn the importance of dependence (interdependence)... I will continue on this fast-track to living in a shanty I've built out of plywood, cardboard and car tires in the middle of fuckin nowheresville.

The part about this I can see being Fi (or even just introverted judgment) is that Pe dom/aux isn't as weighed down with experiential data as Je types are- moreso for Ne. I can see how prioritizing theory consistently over experience would lead to 'shanty' results. Because when you get stuck on some theoretical detail- and feel little or no priority to actually get things done, but rather feel a priority to get the theory right- then things might not get done. I've said before that dealing with Ji feels like Zeno's Paradox. [eta: As a specific example, if someone told me that once an entire team of INTP firefighters once let a building burn to the ground because they got stuck defining 'fire' before they took action- it wouldn't be entirely unbelievable to me.]

But yeah, I did originally read it as 'unwillingness to compromise anything about the self'- i.e. resenting the 'one size fits all' expectations of society and constantly struggling against it.

 

[Starry]

I don't think I'm feeling defensive though? It's entirely possible I misunderstood what you were trying to get across, but I don't think it triggered me (if that even matters). And of course it's possible I'm mishearing all of it. But when you say "uncompromising to where it might be starting to work against me idk"- do you see that as something that happens to SFPs as much as NFPs?

Also I'm confused about the bolded- when you say "you guys", you mean Js (or FJs, or whatever specific kind of J)? Or are you talking about FPs? If you're confused about the bolded as well, I'll accept a good haiku in lieu of a response.




The part about this I can see being Fi (or even just introverted judgment) is that Pe dom/aux isn't as weighed down with experiential data as Je types are- moreso for Ne. I can see how prioritizing theory consistently over experience would lead to 'shanty' results. Because when you get stuck on some theoretical detail- and feel little or no priority to actually get things done, but rather feel a priority to get the theory right- then things might not get done. I've said before that dealing with Ji feels like Zeno's Paradox. [eta: As a specific example, if someone told me that once an entire team of INTP firefighters once let a building burn to the ground because they got stuck defining 'fire' before they took action- it wouldn't be entirely unbelievable to me.]

But yeah, I did originally read it as 'unwillingness to compromise anything about the self'- i.e. resenting the 'one size fits all' expectations of society and constantly struggling against it.

Perhaps I'm too distracted trying to do various projects around my home while reading and posting but I'm not really sure what's going on. My purpose in this thread was merely to try and understand what Mal was saying.

I'll go back now and read your original post to me in a meaningful way... I apologize if the word triggered was a bad choice or something but I got the sense you didn't like the way I characterized Fe by telling my own story...and I was merely trying to say that I'm just trying to talk about myself.

I edited my post above but am not sure if you caught it...are you not liking that some people said Mal's description sounds more like neurotic Fe? And just bouncing off one of my posts? I'll come back when I have read everything over again.

I hate foruming sometimes.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I edited my post above but am not sure if you caught it...are you not liking that some people said Mal's description sounds more like neurotic Fe? And just bouncing off one of my posts? I'll come back when I have read everything over again.

Honestly, don't worry about it. I'm getting the impression you think I'm actually upset about what you're posting (moreso here^ than in previous post), and it couldn't be further from the truth. So don't worry about it.

 

[Starry]

I find myself with another nit to pick*. This actually sounds a whole lot more like unhealthy e5 (or e5 disintegration of e7?) than Fi. If even the slightest bit of 'dependence' means I'm in any way obligated to 'listen' to others tell me I'm something I'm not, then "F#ck you, interdependence!" I see a bit of 'being true to oneself' in it, but (as has been discussed aplenty) I see it as one of the forms of 'be true to oneself' that Fi only thinks it has some kind of monopoly on (and why people mistype as Fi) because of many Fi descriptions. At any rate, I find the above description (your quote) actually describes me quite well- and I don't think anyone contests my FJ status. So just, I don't know, do with that what you will.

I don't especially see anything that resembles my experience of Fi dom/aux in Mal's description. I didn't really see anything that resembled my own experience in his Fe thread either- it seemed like a Frankenstein piece of feedback pieced together from various stereotypes that I never especially related to to begin with. (I'm not trying to be inflammatory or dismissive, but "Frankenstein piece of feedback" is really what it seemed like.) I didn't get wound up about it like some other people seemed to, but I didn't relate to it at all and didn't understand the reason he was posting it. It seems like this thread is having the same effect on Fi dom/aux (some getting wound up, others just not understanding why he's posting it).

The fact that his Fe and Fi threads are getting a bigger reaction than Te and Ti threads- omg, if only there were some way of knowing that's what would have happened.... (And I'm not affirming the 'wisdom' of Ts in pointing out the predictability. I maintain it isn't 'wisdom' so much as it is deafness/blindness to interpersonal noise. But let's let them take as much pride in it as they want, because why not.)

My own experience, if I were to describe my own observations of the commonality I perceive to 'unhealthy Fi', it would sound very different from what he describes in the op. But it also looks different to me from the above quoted thing. I've seen plenty of FPs rationalize their way to ends way above that plywood shanty, without much compunction about using people extensive reflection on interdependence.


*There's a way of looking this where it's your fault for encouraging me to pick nits.

Yah...I got the gist of what you were saying and frankly I don't get it. And so I'm back on board with the word triggered. I've been saying all of the above on this forum for just as long as you have and thought you would know you are preaching to the choir.

I thought you were familiar with my views and in light of all the times we've been posting side by side...on the same side...in this regard I can only guess that you forget yourself.

In an effort to refresh your memory... I believe "being true to myself" is a highly relative term and is something that I associate with Feeling in all its forms. I do not see my description of my experience with Fi as being something that simultaneously, automatically says the exact opposite concerning Fe.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I thought you were familiar with my views and in light of all the times we've been posting side by side...on the same side...in this regard I can only guess that you forget yourself.

In an effort to refresh your memory... I believe "being true to myself" is a highly relative term and is something that I associate with Feeling in all its forms. I do not see my description of my experience with Fi as being something that simultaneously, automatically says the exact opposite concerning Fe.

It didn't occur to me this might be read into my post. So seriously, just nevermind at this point.

 

[Lady_X]

haha wtf mal

 

[Mal12345]

[MENTION=13589]Mal12345[/MENTION] I didn't ask you to make me jealous about your current living arrangements and status within that realm.

Like, Z Buck I can better see what is being expressed but will need to consider it more and am wondering if I might eventually find words that would better describe things in the way I would describe things haha. There's something there of me.
[MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION] I only skimmed your post so far and will read it again for more meaning but you might have been triggered there.
I wish I had the attention span to be as thorough as so many of you here but I just can't. I see myself as writing in a form of shorthand really with only about half of 6 or less people that will read any given post of mine understanding the language born out of impairment and half saying to themselves once again "Starry is so fuckin weird I wish someone would like ban her or something."

I see myself as being strongly e4 and e5 through a variety of connections and yes with 5 I will routinely talk about my Howard Hughes method of integration. But I also mentioned them as a way to get Mal to understand why I wasn't understanding. Those two points are and will always be your Introverted Judgment hotspots. And while I hate to break it to you...people often think of you guys as stubborn, uncompromising, choosing self over others, basically just one big collection of arrogant bastards that suck the fun out of everything haha okay I'm kidding. But dependent and manipulative are not the first two traits that come to mind and I thought Mal would get my confusion without me spelling it out that way.

I'm not entirely sure...but in spite of the shorthand I was being very candid. Where I'm at "always true to herself" = eventual shanty livin. And at least where I'm from...a female living alone in a cardboard shanty <-isn't all that badass. Now, the part of me that actually knows how to build a shanty out of garbage and is totally cool with eating berries only for the rest of my life <-that's my unhealthy connection to e5. But "uncompromising to where it might be starting to work against me idk" <-that in me is Fi.


And none of this has anything to do with Fe.

*************

eta -
Is it because people including myself were saying "dependent and manipulative" sounds more like neurotic Fe? If we are talking about the more traditional, identifiable expressions of those two qualities/coping strategies then I stand by my own thinking in this regard. I do think it is more likely that Fe would fall into a pattern of dependence and manipulation at unhealthy levels just as I think it would be more likely for Fi to fall into a pattern of rejection and isolation when at unhealthy levels. To me it is just the path of least resistance but not all will go that way. I also don't see dependence and manipulation as automatically cancelling out being uncompromising. My Mom is entirely dependent on people serving her and is very true to herself all while appearing not to be.

Re: Neurotic Fe - you're working from stereotypes of Jungian functions while at the same time dropping the context of what I mean by "dependent" as people who need other people to serve them. The context, which answers the question "dependent upon whom and for what?" in the case of neurotic Fi, is the need to be liked, to feel affiliated with a small group or with a person, to obtain merger with that small group or an individual.

To serve someone can be physical or emotional, and you've neglected to specify which one you mean. That's how it becomes possible for you to turn a conversation your direction.

Until a mod says otherwise, this is my thread, not yours.

 

[Mal12345]

But dependent and manipulative are not the first two traits that come to mind *and I thought Mal would get my confusion without me spelling it out that way.

They don't have to be the first traits to come to your mind.

 

[Starry]

I find myself with another nit to pick*. This actually sounds a whole lot more like unhealthy e5 (or e5 disintegration of e7?) than Fi. If even the slightest bit of 'dependence' means I'm in any way obligated to 'listen' to others tell me I'm something I'm not, then "F#ck you, interdependence!" I see a bit of 'being true to oneself' in it, but (as has been discussed aplenty) I see it as one of the forms of 'be true to oneself' that Fi only thinks it has some kind of monopoly on (and why people mistype as Fi) because of many Fi descriptions. At any rate, I find the above description (your quote) actually describes me quite well- and I don't think anyone contests my FJ status. So just, I don't know, do with that what you will.

I don't especially see anything that resembles my experience of Fi dom/aux in Mal's description. I didn't really see anything that resembled my own experience in his Fe thread either- it seemed like a Frankenstein piece of feedback pieced together from various stereotypes that I never especially related to to begin with. (I'm not trying to be inflammatory or dismissive, but "Frankenstein piece of feedback" is really what it seemed like.) I didn't get wound up about it like some other people seemed to, but I didn't relate to it at all and didn't understand the reason he was posting it. It seems like this thread is having the same effect on Fi dom/aux (some getting wound up, others just not understanding why he's posting it).

The fact that his Fe and Fi threads are getting a bigger reaction than Te and Ti threads- omg, if only there were some way of knowing that's what would have happened.... (And I'm not affirming the 'wisdom' of Ts in pointing out the predictability. I maintain it isn't 'wisdom' so much as it is deafness/blindness to interpersonal noise. But let's let them take as much pride in it as they want, because why not.)

My own experience, if I were to describe my own observations of the commonality I perceive to 'unhealthy Fi', it would sound very different from what he describes in the op. But it also looks different to me from the above quoted thing. I've seen plenty of FPs rationalize their way to ends way above that plywood shanty, without much compunction about using people extensive reflection on interdependence.


*There's a way of looking this where it's your fault for encouraging me to pick nits.

I'm exhausted from an overscheduled week but will try one more time to explain myself by saying that while I was drawing from my own very real personal experience...I was purposely exaggerating the details of what we've all been told unhealthy introverted judgment looks like so Mal would get why the Fi participants were struggling to see themselves in a dependent, manipulative character. And I'm assuming it was lost to Ne because Mal did get it.

I don't think Fi has an monopoly on feeling weird when someone corrects you with precisely what you, yourself, are saying but your first paragraph was a confusing read for me. If my description sounded like unhealthy e5 integration = mission accomplished. If you see yourself in what I wrote = mission accomplished. That's exactly what I was trying to do! and yet I'm not sure if anyone reading that would think so. I think they might suspect I'm talking about Fi having a monopoly on something cool...and yet I'm actually here talking about some of my concerns as it pertains to Fi expressing itself through what I believe is an unhealthy connection to e5.

The other way I feel a bit alienated and talked over is merely because I'm honest to god trying to learn how to become more dependent on others and have mentioned this a few times now. This is why I'm here. I'm not speaking poorly of dependency...I actually came here to see if I could learn how to do it. I'm not putting a negative value judgment on it like I assumed people reading your response to me would likely think. I want to invest more in others. I want to understand the value of interdependence...to not fear being obligated to others.

I was merely here for the title.


Anyway, thanks [MENTION=13589]Mal12345[/MENTION] and everyone. I feel like a new person!