Faith healing vs. modern medicine? (Moved from "Bible in a year" thread)

[ZNP-TBA]

I asked. I did not say her mother did or did not because I do not know.

You are putting words and intentions into my mouth.

It is Ivy who is usually rude and inconsiderate to me anyway.

Then consider you might have come across that way since I'm not the only one who seems to think you did. I think you ought to apologize. But w/e.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I'm sorry, Ivy, if I hurt your feelings about your mother.

 

[á´…eparted]

I did not say anything about her mother, fetus.

Oh, oh yes you did. It's all there for all of us to read. If you can't see that then you truly are blinded by your own ignorance.

As much as i'd like to spar with you, fetus, i am afraid i cannot for fear of infractions.

It used to be possible for me to debate and argue things out here, but these days it is easier to get a fair call at a college football game than it is for me to get fair treatment on type c (compared to the favs)

Well guess what, I am going to spar with you. Whether or not you want to reply is your business, but your reluctance here isn't going to stop me from speaking my mind, particularly because Ivy is my friend I am not going to sit back here and watch you ignorantly bop her over the head for no goddamn reason. It's unfortunate that your post couldn't be infracted because it didn't actually violate any rules (I could be wrong though), because if I have EVER seen a non-rule breaking post that should be infracted, it would be yours.

What you said to Ivy, is CRUEL. Out and out CRUEL. You lacked ANY sensitivtity to her situation, and instead twisted it all down to your view of your faith. Something that no one else on the forum shares in the way you do. Do you have any idea what she might have gone through in the past few months? ANY? Clearly not because if you did wouldn't have dared say anything this callous and unsympathetic. What you did was put the death of her mother as her own mothers fault. A death from cancer like this is NO ONES fault. Maybe you could blame chemical exposure if it were directly done and proven to be the case. Oh no, you put the blame of death on the dying person. Do you have ANY idea how demoralizing, dehumanizing, insensitive, narrow sighted, and I'll say it again, CRUEL that is?

This isn't even a matter of debate, what you said is and was objectively cruel. You minimized someones loved ones death, and put the blame of it on them, and made them feel guilty in the process. This is just wrong. COMPLETELY wrong, and it is absolutely MIND BLOWING that you can't even begin to fathom that. You said in the past you left because you got "bashed" a lot. Yep, because you say fucking horrible stuff like this like it's no big deal.

You get what you give.

I'm sorry, Ivy, if I hurt your feelings about your mother.

Yeah right. It's going to take A LOT more than a "sorry" to undo this one. If at all.

 

[Ivy]

I asked. I did not say her mother did or did not because I do not know.

Just asking questions - RationalWiki

 

[Bush]

C'mon. That was asking questions in the same way Glenn Beck "just asks questions."

Just asking questions - RationalWiki

oh fuck, beat me to it

 

[Poki]

Well there is a difference between believing in the existence of God, which a lot of believers seem to have down, and believing in God, which I think is as difficult and testing a process as believing in anyone, especially when you feel that trust has been betrayed in some way or when basic trust has been betrayed or never established when you've been growing up.

The Stoics and their attitude to fortune, which was often personified and even deified and worshiped or at least venerated and revered, is an interesting one.

Read up a bit on stoics, not familiar with all that stuff. Interesting and scary. Some reason it reminds me of an INTx based group, while an ISTx may live by that way to a degree, that's way to much definition and depth for us. It makes me think we puked what we believed and INTX analyzed and ran with it. Interesting and crazy. It's like the logic version of religion. Agree with some, disagree with some, that's way to much to actually define and try and follow and to...makes my head explode with detail. I prefer bible stories...lol.

Philosophy is interesting and bits and pieces are good to live life by, but damn they think and define way to much.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

But I love you anyway.

 

[Lark]

Read up a bit on stoics, not familiar with all that stuff. Interesting and scary. Some reason it reminds me of an INTx based group, while an ISTx may live by that way to a degree, that's way to much definition and depth for us. It makes me think we puked what we believed and INTX analyzed and ran with it. Interesting and crazy. It's like the logic version of religion. Agree with some, disagree with some, that's way to much to actually define and try and follow and to...makes my head explode with detail. I prefer bible stories...lol.

Philosophy is interesting and bits and pieces are good to live life by, but damn they think and define way to much.

Well, Plato, Stoicism, other Greeks were meant to influenced the understanding of the bible stories in early Christianity, there were lots of Hellenic (Greek) refugee communities which the early Christians took in, befriended, and there was a cross pollination of ideas I'm sure.

I like Seneca's letters when it comes to Stoicism, he was a moderate or maybe even a "bad" stoic, he quoted the leader of their opposing school more than he did any of his own thinkers, I like that sort of open mindedness. Although one of the best synopsis and summaries of Stoicism I read was in Adam Smith's theory of moral sentiments when he was discussing moral systems based upon propriety (he thought the other two main systems were prudence and benevolence). The extent to which Fortune was a big idea in classical thinking I probably owe to another thinker, an italian, I dont remember his name right now but he wrote a book about Machavelli.

 

[á´…eparted]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

But I love you anyway.

You think people are GASLIGHTING you? Good lord how self absorbed and impenetrable are you? No one is fucking gaslighting you. You said OBJECTIVELY HORRIBLE THINGS. Period. There is no debate of that, there is no discussion of that. Twist it all you want it doesn't make it right.

You don't "love us". All you're doing is using mental loops to absolve yourself of any responsibility for your words or action. Going "oh, well what they said was mean to me, and they're gas lighting! But... if I love them then everything is ok, and I didn't do anything wrong". Thinking that way is nothing but a pile of BS designed to keep yourself in a positive light and not have to change or own up to any of the horrible things you say or do.

Everyone sees straight through it too, and I'd be floored if you even have a single ally here.

 

[Poki]

I'm sorry, Ivy, if I hurt your feelings about your mother.

This is what it comes down to as Hard had said.

"You lacked ANY sensitivtity to her situation, and instead twisted it all down to your view of your faith. "

you basically said if she defied god then she got what she deserved. This will rub people wrong on so many levels whether you specifically said she deserved it or not. That is the cruelNess behind it. Without knowing her mom you have condemned her mom on possible actions at the end of her life instead of the actual person she is. That's basically what it comes down to. Who she is aside from her choice to se a doctor is ignored as if she doesn't matter.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I hear you.

But I disagree.

And I do mean that I love all of you here. I'm not just saying that to paint myself in a good light.

 

[á´…eparted]

I hear you.

No you don't. Because if you did, you would ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG FOR WHAT YOU SAID AND DID. This is an objective thing, with a single right answer. You're plugging your ears and ignoring reality.

But I disagree.

Then you are NOT hearing any of us.

And I do mean that I love all of you here. I'm not just saying that to paint myself in a good light.

Let's magically assume for a second that you do "love" everyone. It STILL has the effect of absolving yourself of any responsibility. You're digging your hole deeper and deeper with everything you said. You're disagreement is akin to disagreeing with gravity.

P.S. I do NOT want your "love", and I suspect quite a lot of us here don't either.


I have to get to work, but I will be back later. I have no intention of stopping my replies unless I am explicitly told to stop.

 

[prplchknz]

Well, I know Oscar Mayer is the hot dog company guy. Maybe he has something to do with this.

educational videos

 

[Poki]

No you don't. Because if you did, you would ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG FOR WHAT YOU SAID AND DID. This is an objective thing, with a single right answer. You're plugging your ears and ignoring reality.



Then you are NOT hearing any of us.



Let's magically assume for a second that you do "love" everyone. It STILL has the effect of absolving yourself of any responsibility. You're digging your hole deeper and deeper with everything you said. You're disagreement is akin to disagreeing with gravity.

P.S. I do NOT want your "love", and I suspect quite a lot of us here don't either.


I have to get to work, but I will be back later. I have no intention of stopping my replies unless I am explicitly told to stop.

You have single handedly put me on her side now. Wrong was done, it needs to be explained what hapened, why, and dropped. Not Harper on over and over and over until the end of time. Especially not by a third party in a gang bang fashion. If Ivy wants help a friend whose goal is to work through issues should be the middle man/woman. Not a gang bang attack. Reminds me of those facebook posts where someone says something, someone is hurt and everyone jumps in swinging like a bunch of damn groupies.

This is no longer aligned with the thread and IMHO should be split off into another thread. Name it group gang bag in AphroditeGoneAwry and then ban her from the thread so you can all get your jollies off on it.

/rant....stupid immature high-school shit at this point.

 

[Ivy]

Yeah, I'd love it if this could just be dropped at this point. This is not a teachable moment; there's nothing to be gained from hammering at it.

 

[prplchknz]

Was outright condemning someone's recently deceased mother tolerated more back in the day?

probably not but more likely to be some what accepted. but of course this was before medicine existed,s like my head hurts and i feel dizzy then they perform an exorcist. i'm not helping, my helping days are over until i decide they're not again. but yeah it's considered rude to be like oh well you shouldn't have blah blah and especially if that's true its too late stfu. p.s. not saying this about ivy's mom def nott saying this about her mom. but i'm talking about people who cut their finger off accidently. thay type of thing. oh wait bad example. just agree with me or pretend to

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

You guys could have discussed this with me without outright attacking me. Or Ivy could have.

What is with the heated attacking? If you really wanted to know what I meant or think about it (or to elicit an understanding for an apology), then you should maybe try asking in a less hostile way.

No good discussions can come out of yelling at people.

 

[ceecee]

Yeah, I'd love it if this could just be dropped at this point. This is not a teachable moment; there's nothing to be gained from hammering at it.

This is very accurate. While what she said is disgusting and I'm sorry that it was said to you, I'm going to approach her like any other brainwashed and delusional person.

 

[Mole]

Healing, Heaven and Entrancement

Yeah.

I believe in instant physical and psychological healing. I also believe in longer healing. Anything is possible through Christ and The Father.

We can be aware in one of two modes. The first is where we are wide awake with our prefrontal cortex engaged, and the second is when we are entranced and our prefrontal cortex is asleep for a while and our imagination is engaged.

When we are wide awake we are rational and seek evidence, and when we are entranced, we act as though our imagination were real.

When we act as though our imagination were real, we suspend our disbelief. And religion and art are based on the willing suspension of disbelief.

The willing suspension of disbelief is an essential part of our culture but since the Western Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries we have learnt to temper our beliefs with evidence and reason.

One important corollary is that we need to learn when we are entranced. We need to learn to recognise trance inductions such as, Anything is possible through Christ and the Father.

And when a trance has been induced we are inclined to believe anything we are told, just like children. And indeed, in Matthew 18:3: Jesus said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

So even Jesus said we won't enter heaven unless we are entranced.

 

[Poki]

So children and trance have been correlated and therfore we define what the Bible means because we have found 2 things that are similiar. Maybe we should go back to school and relearn the difference between equals and similiar.

I don't get anything from that quote like you explained.