[MBTI General] ENTP/ENFP relationship?

[Lady_X]

i was raised by hippies! ha!

 

[Society]

i was raised by hippies! ha!

hahaha, same, i'm pretty sure many of our generation where (i'm guessing Y)...

so... *digs under the joke* your saying that your principles are the ones you where raised with? and Fi just made them... important? desirable?

[MENTION=13377]pinkgraffiti[/MENTION], what about you? at some point in your earlier life you read about Kant's catagorical imperative and just... embraced it? connected with it?

your Fi basically just gets you people.. emotionally attached to rules? like it's a person or a brilliant idea or a favorite food? and you got attached to those rules throughout life? going about it the same way you'd go about every day nurturing your child or taking care of a pet you love?

am i getting any of this right?

 

[Lady_X]

i'm confused a bit by your phrasing...what are you unsure about...what is the question you are asking? why do have certain principles that never change? why we believe in an inherent truth at all?

i don't know how it works for others but to me it feels that all of it just is...just as you grow and you learn that the sun is bright...trees have leaves...etc etc...you just become who you are...ya know? not with everything obviously some things i have to think about awhile to decide how i feel about it...i think that works in much the same way as you use ti you have certain principles you feel are true and then others you have to think about...right?

 

[Society]

i'm confused a bit by your phrasing...what are you unsure about...what is the question you are asking? why do have certain principles that never change? why we believe in an inherent truth at all?

i don't know how it works for others but to me it feels that all of it just is...just as you grow and you learn that the sun is bright...trees have leaves...etc etc...you just become who you are...ya know? not with everything obviously some things i have to think about awhile to decide how i feel about it...i think that works in much the same way as you use ti you have certain principles you feel are true and then others you have to think about...right?

Ti (in combination with Ne) can help me understand the "principles" or the laws that govern a system, it doesn't really make those principles important to me...
we all learn about principles, our parents want us to learn about them, society wants us to learn about them, philosophers have various ideas about various principles, sometimes it's interesting to figure out various principles...

but from what i am getting, there is something about Fi that make you guys incorporate those principles into the basics of your behavior and thought process, into how you interpret information and how you decide what to do...

and from what i've seen it's not about context, it's not about consequances or causality, it's not about how you feel about the people or the situation your applying it too, or maybe its better said - it governs how you feel about the situations you are applying it too... the principle just stands.

so i am asking what is it that make you incorporate those principles to such an extent? how do you expeirence that? are you getting attached to it emotionally? and what makes one principle important but another one not?

 

[entropie]

Ti (in combination with Ne) can help me understand the "principles" or the laws that govern a system, it doesn't really make those principles important to me...
we all learn about principles, our parents want us to learn about them, society wants us to learn about them, philosophers have various ideas about various principles, sometimes it's interesting to figure out various principles...

but from what i am getting, there is something about Fi that make you guys incorporate those principles into the basics of your behavior and thought process, into how you interpret information and how you decide what to do...

and from what i've seen it's not about context, it's not about consequances or causality, it's not about how you feel about the people or the situation your applying it too, or maybe its better said - it governs how you feel about the situations you are applying it too... the principle just stands.

so i am asking what is it that make you incorporate those principles to such an extent? how do you expeirence that? are you getting attached to it emotionally? and what makes one principle important but another one not?

Principles is a thing anyone can have. You can see that rationally from the point of view that you thru your principles decide what kind of person you want to be in life and how you want to be seen by others. If you have no principles, you are just a pawn and people who say that 'being objective' means 'having no principles' never had to take on responsibility in their lifes. Cause when you do you are called on your principles pretty soon and have to make a decision which isnt always possible to be solved rationally. So being able to decide without a double safety-net of comforting reason, is an important step to growing up and to being able to take on responsibility for your life and the lifes of others.

What you mean in regards to Fi people, I wouldnt call principles. Its just that Fi people have their internalized feeling system, how they and them only feel about something. The same reason applies to me not being able to explain math to children, tho I am a math crack. I have a very internalized way to think and explain stuff in my words not always suited for the framework of thoughts of other people. The same applies to Fi. Principles tho that arent, principles are something you stick to no matter the cost and what you dont change, no matter how you feel or think in a given context. I dont think that NFs are any less human in that regards than the rest of the World (tho they regulary make believe that they arent).

 

[Society]

Principles is a thing anyone can have. You can see that rationally from the point of view that you thru your principles decide what kind of person you want to be in life and how you want to be seen by others. If you have no principles, you are just a pawn and people who say that 'being objective' means 'having no principles' never had to take on responsibility in their lifes. Cause when you do you are called on your principles pretty soon and have to make a decision which isnt always possible to be solved rationally. So being able to decide without a double safety-net of comforting reason, is an important step to growing up and to being able to take on responsibility for your life and the lifes of others.

except that without Fi those principles aren't standing for themselves, they are derived from what you think and how you feel about everything that's involved in the situation in which you are applying them too.

for example, an Fi user might look at me and think i have a strong principle of loyalty and must believe in it very strongly, but in reality it's simply that when i love someone other prospects sort of fade, i loose the openness and the need to make such connections, the thought of hurting them or risking my relationship with them becomes a joke, and when others flirted with me or made a move my brain's reaction was less along the lines of "fighting the urge" and more along the lines of "nana nanana you want me but you can't have me"... it is entirely a result of Fe. no principle, no law, just a derivative of other factors... and if the context and the factors change, so can the 'principle' behavior.

something about Fi makes it... entirely different. the principles stand even when the particular factors that would derive it don't.

 

[Lady_X]

you're right they do stand on they're own and are completely uninfluenced by others. i'm not on anyones side...i'll just jump back and forth to defend whatever i think is right...it is kinda a trip isn't it.

 

[Society]

you're right they do stand on they're own and are completely uninfluenced by others. i'm not on anyones side...i'll just jump back and forth to defend whatever i think is right...it is kinda a trip isn't it.

but how does it work? what makes you emotionally attached to principles? they aren't alive, they don't have any feelings, i'm sure at some point the intelectual play of the principles as ideas would become boring, they have no flavor, its not like you come up with an assortment of great moments with them like someone might have with their favorite shirt...

what is happening there inside that makes them important?

 

[Lady_X]

it's not an emotional attachment mane. it just is... and my emotional attachment towards others don't change it...ever. if i believe that killing is wrong it doesn't matter if it's me..you..my mother...my best friend..my child...my husband...or a completely random person who does it...it...is wrong...it just is...and there's no justifiable reason that would change that. i don't feel any emotional attachment to it...i don't think of it as a friend or beloved object...it just is.

i can't even begin to tell you how it comes to be...how these ideas become ingrained...they just are.

 

[pinkgraffiti]

ok guy, i'm progressively getting lost in this conversation and thinking i'm getting further from the point, but i appreciate your interest and i'll try to get the point.... :

i think what you are missing and what is essential (regarding kant and so on) is that you understand that Fi is internal. it does not come from outside. its not a rationalization. i didn't read kant and decide i like it. i have principles, i read kant and i was like: oh, great, i agree with this guy. ....maybe you could understand this since you use Ti. its the same, just replace T with F.

examples, lets seek i give you a very practical example, alright?
some months ago a new boss arrived to my work. we had the radio on to a world music station.
- she arrived and said: "oh, what is this station?"
- and i said "oh, its great, isn't it? "
- she replied "no, its shit, we have to change this"
- and i thought "wtf?"

the next day: she comes in, changes the radio station to some incredibly pop shit. (i love music)
- i'm like: "listen, i can't listen to that, its horrible."
- she (oh, btw, she's a total ESFJ): "oh, we can pick something in the middle for both of us"
- me: "no, I'm sorry, i can't listen to that. why are you imposing that upon me? i'm not forcing you to listen to my station, don't force your station upon me"
- she: "ok, then i put my station"
- i feel hurt
- days pass, me: "i'm sorry, can you please turn that off? can you listen to music from your headphones? i listen to music through my headphones, i don't force you to listen to my music. you'd die if you had to listen to what i listen to (i listen to a lot of experimental stuff, as well as heavy-metal etc)

so here we have a very clear clash between Fe and Fi. i still listen to my music through headphones. when she is outside of the room, i put it on loud speakers. if she comes in turn it off automatically, since i don't want to disturb her. she doesn't do this, she knows i don't like her music and still she doesn't care. i find her extremely inconsiderate to force me to listen to her music, when i have never forced her to listen to mine. in fact, i'm beginning to hate her on the fact that she arrived and imposed something upon me (she listens to a techno-pop station, i can't even work with the disco beats going on all day, it hurts my *snob* ears). her, she thinks that we should come to a solution that is middle way to both of us and whilst i don't compromise on this topic (because i don't find it to be fair) she keeps on doing it her way.

hahaha, same, i'm pretty sure many of our generation where (i'm guessing Y)...

so... *digs under the joke* your saying that your principles are the ones you where raised with? and Fi just made them... important? desirable?

[MENTION=13377]pinkgraffiti[/MENTION], what about you? at some point in your earlier life you read about Kant's catagorical imperative and just... embraced it? connected with it?

your Fi basically just gets you people.. emotionally attached to rules? like it's a person or a brilliant idea or a favorite food? and you got attached to those rules throughout life? going about it the same way you'd go about every day nurturing your child or taking care of a pet you love?

am i getting any of this right?

 

[Society]

your new boss is just establishing her position in the social leader. for now just go with her solution with something you can both listen (even if it's fucking elivator music) so that you can work, just let it go for a little while, make her feel respected as a boss, and then - without rationalizing it - ask her if she would mind using earphones or turning the volume down.

but i am guessing what your saying about Fi is that you don't like the fact that you would need such a solution, your Fi is telling you that she should treat you fairly as a peer, that it's wrong to impose yourself on others, and now you are hate her for not following those principles?

ok, i think i get what Fi does, i just don't get how it does it.

(and no, Ti doesn't work that way, Ti doesn't make me believe in anything, it's just how i analyze information).

ok guy, i'm progressively getting lost in this conversation and thinking i'm getting further from the point, but i appreciate your interest and i'll try to get the point.... :

i think what you are missing and what is essential (regarding kant and so on) is that you understand that Fi is internal. it does not come from outside. its not a rationalization. i didn't read kant and decide i like it. i have principles, i read kant and i was like: oh, great, i agree with this guy. ....maybe you could understand this since you use Ti. its the same, just replace T with F.

examples, lets seek i give you a very practical example, alright?
some months ago a new boss arrived to my work. we had the radio on to a world music station.
- she arrived and said: "oh, what is this station?"
- and i said "oh, its great, isn't it? "
- she replied "no, its shit, we have to change this"
- and i thought "wtf?"

the next day: she comes in, changes the radio station to some incredibly pop shit. (i love music)
- i'm like: "listen, i can't listen to that, its horrible."
- she (oh, btw, she's a total ESFJ): "oh, we can pick something in the middle for both of us"
- me: "no, I'm sorry, i can't listen to that. why are you imposing that upon me? i'm not forcing you to listen to my station, don't force your station upon me"
- she: "ok, then i put my station"
- i feel hurt
- days pass, me: "i'm sorry, can you please turn that off? can you listen to music from your headphones? i listen to music through my headphones, i don't force you to listen to my music. you'd die if you had to listen to what i listen to (i listen to a lot of experimental stuff, as well as heavy-metal etc)

so here we have a very clear clash between Fe and Fi. i still listen to my music through headphones. when she is outside of the room, i put it on loud speakers. if she comes in turn it off automatically, since i don't want to disturb her. she doesn't do this, she knows i don't like her music and still she doesn't care. i find her extremely inconsiderate to force me to listen to her music, when i have never forced her to listen to mine. in fact, i'm beginning to hate her on the fact that she arrived and imposed something upon me (she listens to a techno-pop station, i can't even work with the disco beats going on all day, it hurts my *snob* ears). her, she thinks that we should come to a solution that is middle way to both of us and whilst i don't compromise on this topic (because i don't find it to be fair) she keeps on doing it her way.

 

[pinkgraffiti]

thank you for the suggestion
.....but i hate hierarchies. especially if they are not work connected - music is not work connected. she's almost using her position to impose herself.
and for you to understand Fi - i don't want to say "yes" to my boss, ill be weakening my position and in the future i might need that. i have suffered many times in the past from being inflexible, but i can't change my mind just because its beneficial now, because in the future someone might catch my incoherence and call me on that.

ok, what was your other question? about the "how it does it?"

your new boss is just establishing her position in the social leader. for now just go with her solution with something you can both listen (even if it's fucking elivator music) so that you can work, just let it go for a little while, make her feel respected as a boss, and then - without rationalizing it - ask her if she would mind using earphones or turning the volume down.

but i am guessing what your saying about Fi is that you don't like the fact that you would need such a solution, your Fi is telling you that she should treat you fairly as a peer, that it's wrong to impose yourself on others, and now you are hate her for not following those principles?

ok, i think i get what Fi does, i just don't get how it does it.

(and no, Ti doesn't work that way, Ti doesn't make me believe in anything, it's just how i analyze information).

 

[Society]

.but i hate hierarchies.

most do - we just hate them upwards and pass it along downwards.

she's almost using her position to impose herself.

otherway around - she is using imposing herself to establish her position.
that's why the solution is to give her another way of doing so.

and for you to understand Fi - i don't want to say "yes" to my boss, ill be weakening my position and in the future i might need that. i have suffered many times in the past from being inflexible, but i can't change my mind just because its beneficial now, because in the future someone might catch my incoherence and call me on that.

wait a second... is that it? is that what drives your principles to be consistent... that others might catch you? and your principles feel for you like stuff you are born with? but given that they differ between cultures, we can get that this most likely means they developed alongside establishing a sense of identity... early childhood... so in a way Fi is like Fe focused on your source of ethics which i am guessing means... parents?

am i connecting the dots right?

 

[pinkgraffiti]

i'm not sure, to be honest. can we discuss another example to come to a conclusion? can i ask for lady x help on this? it might be in part. i don't know, id have to think about it. i don't think its the ultimate force, fundamentally.
regarding parents and so on.....i was thinking about this yesterday. i was sitting with a friend in a cafe and i was thinking: "that super muscular guy over there......i wonder how boring it would be if we were together....but maybe not, maybe underneath all those muscles he is clever and I'm judging" and then i thought "gosh, would i have been different if id been born in a different family?" and it could be, for example i might be religious if id been born in a religious family....but then at the same time i think some things are innate and i think i respect people and respect people's freedom and that would never change. so i would probably have rebelled in a very religious family, since they don't respect people's liberties. i seriously don't have all the answers for you, its something we can come to a conclusion to discussing it together and mostly talking about concrete, non abstract things. so, shoot away, I'm your girl

most do - we just hate them upwards and pass it along downwards.


otherway around - she is using imposing herself to establish her position.
that's why the solution is to give her another way of doing so.


wait a second... is that it? is that what drives your principles to be consistent... that others might catch you? and your principles feel for you like stuff you are born with? but given that they differ between cultures, we can get that this most likely means they developed alongside establishing a sense of identity... early childhood... so in a way Fi is like Fe focused on your source of ethics which i am guessing means... parents?

am i connecting the dots right?

 

[Lady_X]

(and no, Ti doesn't work that way, Ti doesn't make me believe in anything, it's just how i analyze information).

see tho...us too. fi is how we analyze information too...but instead of does this make logical sense...we're asking if this feels right...is it fair and good and equal to all...is it hurting anyone...is it unrightfully taking something away from someone? you build your ti framework and judge new information by it...and we build our fi framework.

something like that anyway i think...i'm not so good describing such things.

 

[Lady_X]

i don't know if it comes from your families...i think/feel that if i were to be raised in a different family that i would feel the same deep down about the world...but who could ever know such a thing...i do know however that my non fi sister feels differently and my fi sister very much the same in many ways.

 

[Society]

i'm not sure, to be honest. can we discuss another example to come to a conclusion? can i ask for lady x help on this? it might be in part. i don't know, id have to think about it. i don't think its the ultimate force, fundamentally.
regarding parents and so on.....i was thinking about this yesterday. i was sitting with a friend in a cafe and i was thinking: "that super muscular guy over there......i wonder how boring it would be if we were together....but maybe not, maybe underneath all those muscles he is clever and I'm judging" and then i thought "gosh, would i have been different if id been born in a different family?" and it could be, for example i might be religious if id been born in a religious family....but then at the same time i think some things are innate and i think i respect people and respect people's freedom and that would never change. so i would probably have rebelled in a very religious family, since they don't respect people's liberties. i seriously don't have all the answers for you, its something we can come to a conclusion to discussing it together and mostly talking about concrete, non abstract things. so, shoot away, I'm your girl

ofcourse [MENTION=5418]Lady X[/MENTION] and anyone else can help... all tools are kosher here.

and as for examples, my example of honor killing wasn't entirely hypothetical: one of my highschool friends - an ISFP (Fi dom) - has grown up in a largely traditional bedouin (arab) household, and even though he wasn't very religious he still embraced the values he grow up with whole heartedly. I.E. when i told him my little sister is dating and that i gave her condoms for protection, for him the fact honor killing wasn't even on my mind seem absurd. it was clear for him that what she and her boyfriend where doing - which in his interpretation was something they where doing to her family - was somehow "instrictly wrong". for him the fact i didn't think the same was alienating, the fact i didn't understand it was absurd.

and i wonder: can you think of any examples in which your principles are not the same as the ones your parents and/or authority figures have instilled in your early childhood?

can any Fi user?

 

[pinkgraffiti]

i can't accept honor killing. i can see where your friend is coming from, and i would probably respect him and understand why he has that idea, but honor killing is against the universal declaration of human rights. this is a very good example of Fi.....maybe things can be relative, but the universal declaration of human rights is not, it's about human dignity. we can have different ideas on things, but again if it means the decrease in freedom of someone else, its not ok. you can go as far as you want until you touch someone else's space.

my parents, my parents.....my mum thinks being gay is a sickness. I've known this about her growing up, but she didn't influence me and it made me feel uncomfortable, and i never thought they were.
we also debated on the veil on muslims: she thinks muslims should integrate and the veil should be removed, i think everyone should be free and that imposing this sort of law could create more conflict within muslim families.
i think both my parents are left wing but conservative. i'm left wing but very open minded. but of course I'm not the perfect example, i was not brought up by right wing parents. maybe someone else can elucidate you.

ofcourse [MENTION=5418]Lady X[/MENTION] and anyone else can help... all tools are kosher here.

and as for examples, my example of honor killing wasn't entirely hypothetical: one of my highschool friends - an ISFP (Fi dom) - has grown up in a largely traditional bedouin (arab) household, and even though he wasn't very religious he still embraced the values he grow up with whole heartedly. I.E. when i told him my little sister is dating and that i gave her condoms for protection, for him the fact honor killing wasn't even on my mind seem absurd. it was clear for him that what she and her boyfriend where doing - which in his interpretation was something they where doing to her family - was somehow "instrictly wrong". for him the fact i didn't think the same was alienating, the fact i didn't understand it was absurd.

and i wonder: can you think of any examples in which your principles are not the same as the ones your parents and/or authority figures have instilled in your early childhood?

can any Fi user?

 

[Society]

my parents, my parents.....my mum thinks being gay is a sickness. I've known this about her growing up, but she didn't influence me and it made me feel uncomfortable, and i never thought they were.
we also debated on the veil on muslims: she thinks muslims should integrate and the veil should be removed, i think everyone should be free and that imposing this sort of law could create more conflict within muslim families.

how old where you when they tried instilling the values you didn't embrace as apposed to the values which you did?

is it possible that they instilled the principle of live-and-let-live in you earlier on, and by the time they talked about specific issues like homosexuality or muslim integration you saw it as inconsistent with the earlier value?

 

[pinkgraffiti]

mmm could be partially true. actually i have quite a conservative father and i never agreed with him. if i have to think about it would come from my Ne (just thinking "why does it have to be like that?" "where are the rules?" "why can't it be bigger?"). but its true that my mother always told me to be my own person, to have my own ideas, that i could be everything i wanted, early on. i think we need more company if we are to reach a conclusion on this....

how old where you when they tried instilling the values you didn't embrace as apposed to the values which you did?

is it possible that they instilled the principle of live-and-let-live in you earlier on, and by the time they talked about specific issues like homosexuality or muslim integration you saw it as inconsistent with the earlier value?