[MBTI General] ENTP/ENFP relationship?

[Betty Blue]

It comes down the the individuals... i'm sure that will have been said.
My mother is an ENFP and my father is an ENTP, they were madly in love for three years.... then it was a train wreck, not just any old train wreck either, my father (32 years later) still holds a great deal of resentment and bitterness. They were divorced by the time i was three years old and i spent most of my childhood in the middle of a parental battleground. Though it was usually my father battling and my mother being a free spirit.

EDIT: I think a lot of the difficulty within the type match arena was that my father found my mother to be a bit of a fantasist and and was incredibly frustrated with her not sticking to plans/ideas. She in turn found him to be too rigid, expectant and somewhat suffocating. They were drawn to each other in the beginning ... it was actually a "love at first sight" story and they were crazy in love, to the point of obsession. I think that kind of love often implodes...

 

[pinkgraffiti]

can i summarize it in one word? it's shit. it's shit. maybe nice from afar, cause you seem to have similarities, but for the two big relationships with ENTPs i've had in my life (i mean friends) in turned bad. i always feel judged by them. they don't understand why i use Fi. there seems to be a really severe Fi/Fe gap there. We are both coming from the same place (Ne) but then i go crazy on Fi and an ENTP does not understand and will always judge me for it and point me towards Fe.

 

[Society]

I was in a serious relationship with an INTP and it was awesome; I'd never gotten along with someone so much before. It wouldn't have ended if it weren't for the issue of religion and him not wanting kids.

in regards to both your INTP and ENTP relationships - how did you find the interaction on the Fi/Fe and Te/Ti levels? how did the INTP/ENTPs not clash consistently with your values?

basically what [MENTION=13377]pinkgraffiti[/MENTION] said, but the reverse... and simply what he said: i know that for me and other Fe users (INFJ INTP etc...), people who have a moral code that can indulge in the concept of victimless crimes because of arbitrary values, the very concept that there are reasons to not do things even when there is no harm to anyone... the whole thing just seems nuts.

 

[pinkgraffiti]

why is that wrong? it's called having a principle. knowing why you do things. everyone has them? I'm talking about Kant's morals here, you know what i mean? they are ESSENTIAL. most important thing in life.

also, i'm a girl

in regards to both your INTP and ENTP relationships - how did you find the interaction on the Fi/Fe and Te/Ti levels? how did the INTP/ENTPs not clash consistently with your values?

basically what [MENTION=13377]pinkgraffiti[/MENTION] said, but the reverse... and simply what he said: i know that for me and other Fe users (INFJ INTP etc...), people who have a moral code that can indulge in the concept of victimless crimes because of arbitrary values, the very concept that there are reasons to not do things even when there is no harm to anyone... the whole thing just seems nuts.

 

[Society]

why is that wrong? it's called having a principle. knowing why you do things. everyone has them? I'm talking about Kant's morals here, you know what i mean? they are ESSENTIAL. most important thing in life.

also, i'm a girl

how should i explain this... it's like we're having a nice walk hand in hand and everything seems fine and we're just rolling on with life, and then you have imaginery stones in your path... ok i can deal with this, fun game and all... so i try to understand how your imaginery stone looks like and we walk around it, and then another one, and another, and the game gets boring, and i ask you: can we please play something else? and you tell me its not a game, that its important for you, and i try to talk things out rationally, i try to tell you there's nothing there... and you insist that there is. and if those stones become roadblocks, well... its difficult to maintain respect like that.

and if your moral code is not utiliterian in nature (and it often isn't - at least not exclusively), then at some point, usually when life isn't giving you cookies, your going to do the worst thing of all: you are going to judge me or people in my social life for doing stuff that didn't harm anyone, act upon that judgement, and in doing so cause harm yourself to those your judging, whether through damaging their relationship with you or damaging their relationship with me via association.

this is not the same for all conflicting traits: with Ne/Ni interactions you get awesome brainstorming, with Si/Se you get someone who reminds the other of meaningful association and someone who impresses the other with what they can see...

but Fi/Fe...

that's a tough shell to crack.

 

[entropie]

how should i explain this... it's like we're having a nice walk hand in hand and everything seems fine and we're just rolling on with life, and then you have imaginery stones in your path... ok i can deal with this, fun game and all... so i try to understand how your imaginery stone looks like and we walk around it, and then another one, and another, and the game gets boring, and i ask you: can we please play something else? and you tell me its not a game, that its important for you, and i try to talk things out rationally, i try to tell you there's nothing there... and you insist that there is. and if those stones become roadblocks, well... its difficult to maintain respect like that.

and if your moral code is not utiliterian in nature (and it often isn't - at least not exclusively), then at some point, usually when life isn't giving you cookies, your going to do the worst thing of all: you are going to judge me or people in my social life for doing stuff that didn't harm anyone, act upon that judgement, and in doing so cause harm yourself to those your judging, whether through damaging their relationship with you or damaging their relationship with me via association.

this is not the same for all conflicting traits: with Ne/Ni interactions you get awesome brainstorming, with Si/Se you get someone who reminds the other of meaningful association and someone who impresses the other with what they can see...

but Fi/Fe...

that's a tough shell to crack.

The problem I see here is that (maybe) entps can forget that there are always two sides to every story. The point of critique here is our steely demand for people to be rational, tho we ourselves do not communicate our rationality in the way we demand from others. That means, while we are basing a lot of our decisions on how we feel or whats our gut instinct about something, we demand rationality in a way an unwise intp would (maybe) do for example.

The second problem is that entps can become a victim to mathematical models, thru which they bring order into their lifes. MBTI is such a model and judging from your general posts, I'ld say you exclusively see the world thru mbti glasses. What can become a huge problem, cause the one thing (which is the thing you should base every NF relationship on) you loose then is trust. Trust in your feelings and trust in your partner. If you dont learn to just blindly trust on a lot of things in a relationship, the responsibility it brings will become too much for you; until you bail out.

 

[ilovereeses]

in regards to both your INTP and ENTP relationships - how did you find the interaction on the Fi/Fe and Te/Ti levels? how did the INTP/ENTPs not clash consistently with your values?

Basically, my ENTP best friend trained my F to not take everything so personally and now thanks to him I'm a lot more understanding and much less F than I used to be.

My INTP and I had different values, completely different, but he never judged me for it. That's how we still got along, because it's fine if we don't agree, but I hate when people try to change me; it makes me want to do the opposite just to spite them.

I have a ton of respect for the INTP; his thought process is so completely different from mine, and it intrigued me. I loved how much I could trust him too, he never lied to me even once. It definitely wasn't love at first sight with him, he grew on me after a while of hanging out with him. I had tried guessing, but didn't find out his MBTI type about half way through our relationship when he told me.

One thing that I've noticed when it comes to sharing personal values is that INTPs will hear you out and quietly disagree unless asked for their opinion, where ENTPs will jump all over you voicing their opinion, not trying to judge you, but also wanting to share. It makes it look like INTPs care more since they look like they're listening fully and processing everything you say, but then the lack of feedback from them is disconcerting.

 

[Lady_X]

how should i explain this... it's like we're having a nice walk hand in hand and everything seems fine and we're just rolling on with life, and then you have imaginery stones in your path... ok i can deal with this, fun game and all... so i try to understand how your imaginery stone looks like and we walk around it, and then another one, and another, and the game gets boring, and i ask you: can we please play something else? and you tell me its not a game, that its important for you, and i try to talk things out rationally, i try to tell you there's nothing there... and you insist that there is. and if those stones become roadblocks, well... its difficult to maintain respect like that.

and if your moral code is not utiliterian in nature (and it often isn't - at least not exclusively), then at some point, usually when life isn't giving you cookies, your going to do the worst thing of all: you are going to judge me or people in my social life for doing stuff that didn't harm anyone, act upon that judgement, and in doing so cause harm yourself to those your judging, whether through damaging their relationship with you or damaging their relationship with me via association.

this is not the same for all conflicting traits: with Ne/Ni interactions you get awesome brainstorming, with Si/Se you get someone who reminds the other of meaningful association and someone who impresses the other with what they can see...

but Fi/Fe...

that's a tough shell to crack.

this is interesting and enlightening and i wonder if you can also see how belittling it is...not that i'm personally offended but i imagine someone close to you might be. it sounds like you're saying it's cute a first but then...it's annoying...like...okay that's enough... now can we just get back to reality? which...by the way...is just your reality. but somehow you've placed it very much above that of anyone elses. there's no making one understand your moral code if the very idea of it seems irrational. the very best you can do is realize that we operate in a very different but equally valuable and deserving of respect ways as you....so let it go...just let it go and learn to marvel in the differences and learn from them...enjoy them...no point trying to control them.

 

[Society]

this is interesting and enlightening and i wonder if you can also see how belittling it is...not that i'm personally offended but i imagine someone close to you might be. it sounds like you're saying it's cute a first but then...it's annoying...like...okay that's enough... now can we just get back to reality? which...by the way...is just your reality. but somehow you've placed it very much above that of anyone elses. there's no making one understand your moral code if the very idea of it seems irrational. the very best you can do is realize that we operate in a very different but equally valuable and deserving of respect ways as you....so let it go...just let it go and learn to marvel in the differences and learn from them...enjoy them...no point trying to control them.

yes, i understand, that's why it becomes so frustrating in a relationship with Fi users...

i have no doubts that the reaction i described is intensely immature and lacking in understanding. i think every function's introverted-extraverted scale has a bridge, in fact i tend to think there's a huge gray area in each barely acounted for in the current MBTI understanding, for example my Ne and Ni are both very strong, but when it comes to Fi-Fe i am so much to one extreme that the other extreme is... alien. and the start of that bridge is in trying to transelate and break the dissonance...

so instead of getting tangled in immaturity blames (which i would totally win by trying to prove that i am more immature then you instead of otherwise)... i will see if i can give you a perspective that might help you explain to me how you expeirence Fi, if you would be interested.

i do know that for me principles don't mean the same thing they seem ot mean for Fi users, that they are conclusions i came to that are derived from other things and that if they change it means what they are derived from or what i am considering at the time changes. sure some principles have reasons, but reasons come and reasons go, and sometimes new reasons counter previous reasons. its not a code i uphold, and it doesn't make sense to me to uphold one.

for example, in the military i found out that i can't coop well after some of what needed to be done. there's no principle behind it, moral-code wise i have nothing to feel guilty for - the army concscritped me, the war was defensive in nature, even my home town got a few bombs in that war. there was no question of rights or ethics. i had every moral excuse in the book. its just my own nature (probably Fe-Ne) to imagine other's and their loved one's perspective and feel empathy for it.

yet i have no doubt that if someone even tried to threaten my son's life i wouldn't think twice. again, no moral code involved - the reason for not killing would still be there - there would just be more important reasons, and the "principle" would change to fit the situation. i wouldn't even think of upholding the principle for it's own sake.

this is the closest i can come to understanding Fi users, which i suppose really means i don't understand it at all.

 

[pinkgraffiti]

no, first of all i don't think most "moral codes" are "imaginary stones"; i think they can be quite logical and expected and if you want we can discuss examples one by one (for this concept refer to the kantian morals i told you about before).
secondly, i dont tend to judge people, i appreciate people being free, and i also appreciate when people have a moral backbone, which might be different than mine, but which needs to be coherent nonetheless. it's like, maybe your "feelings" can change and your identity is your "thinking", but for me my logical thinking is always relative to the premises i start with, whereas my "feeling" comes from a deeper truth that i know is within myself and does not change. you know, i have a shit memory but i am always surprised when friends tell me "oh, you reacted like this in the (distant) past" or "your opinion was this" etc...and i think: "oh thats great, because i feel exactly the same now. i had forgotten i had had those reactions in the past, but if you ask me now its exactly how i should do". so the point is that Fi is my essence, its unchangeable and i don't have values of a "drama queen" like apparently you understand it to be, they are quite logical i tihnk. again, if you want details we can discuss one example or two.

ps. also, let me add: if there are no Fi users, then you can have an extreme situation like Hitler and WWII. where people go with the "feelings" of the majority and don't feel inside that there is something wrong, so to speak.

how should i explain this... it's like we're having a nice walk hand in hand and everything seems fine and we're just rolling on with life, and then you have imaginery stones in your path... ok i can deal with this, fun game and all... so i try to understand how your imaginery stone looks like and we walk around it, and then another one, and another, and the game gets boring, and i ask you: can we please play something else? and you tell me its not a game, that its important for you, and i try to talk things out rationally, i try to tell you there's nothing there... and you insist that there is. and if those stones become roadblocks, well... its difficult to maintain respect like that.

and if your moral code is not utiliterian in nature (and it often isn't - at least not exclusively), then at some point, usually when life isn't giving you cookies, your going to do the worst thing of all: you are going to judge me or people in my social life for doing stuff that didn't harm anyone, act upon that judgement, and in doing so cause harm yourself to those your judging, whether through damaging their relationship with you or damaging their relationship with me via association.

this is not the same for all conflicting traits: with Ne/Ni interactions you get awesome brainstorming, with Si/Se you get someone who reminds the other of meaningful association and someone who impresses the other with what they can see...

but Fi/Fe...

that's a tough shell to crack.

 

[Lady_X]

to use your example...i know deep down that if someone were to hurt my child it would crush my whole world but the idea of then allowing myself to become something i despise wouldn't occur to me. i am who i am...and someone can't turn me into something else. to me there is no justifiable murder...that doesn't just change based on the person with the opinion. war makes no sense...there is no right side...just different realities. etc etc

edit: i didn't mean that to sound all judgy and high horsey...was just trying to give my "fi" perspective.

 

[Society]

edit: i didn't mean that to sound all judgy and high horsey...was just trying to give my "fi" perspective.

that brings up a good question: do you view your moral code as yours or as an objective one that applies to all?

i have known Fi users, particularly ESFP & ISFPs, who have jumped to say "i know this is wrong" or even (for the MBTI aware) "my Fi grants me the ability to just know when something is wrong" when i was examining an ethical question with rational arguments on both sides... acting like there is one truth, one objective morality we should all adhere too, that they just magically know.

likewise, what about when Fi users disagree? for example:

no, first of all i don't think most "moral codes" are "imaginary stones"; i think they can be quite logical and expected and if you want we can discuss examples one by one (for this concept refer to the kantian morals i told you about before).
secondly, i dont tend to judge people, i appreciate people being free, and i also appreciate when people have a moral backbone, which might be different than mine, but which needs to be coherent nonetheless.

what about when they contradict yours? how would you react to someone whose coherent inner truth and moral code and family values includes honor killing?

or maybe if i would bring more american topics - how would you react to someone whose moral code includes abortions (if your against them) or alternatively - the other extreme which i heard happening in the last few years - someone whose moral code supports executing abortion doctors?

in any of those cases, will you admire their moral backbone and standing for what they believe in, regardless if you share those values?

the idea of then allowing myself to become something i despise wouldn't occur to me. i am who i am...and someone can't turn me into something else.

so the point is that Fi is my essence, its unchangeable and i don't have values of a "drama queen" like apparently you understand it to be, they are quite logical i tihnk. again, if you want details we can discuss one example or two.

there are many traits that can define you as a person... many of them may change over time, but some will not, you learn them as you go along. why do you need a code to define yourself by? would you loose your sense of identity without it?

more so it is my understanding that there are as many ENFP 7s as their are ENFP 4s. what are they (and other non-4's) are getting out of this deal other then a sense of identity?

ps. also, let me add: if there are no Fi users, then you can have an extreme situation like Hitler and WWII. where people go with the "feelings" of the majority and don't feel inside that there is something wrong, so to speak.

that's a bad example because its just as easy to object to the holocaust and the war out of empathy for it's victims point of view, the only places where Fi and Fe really diverge are when their are no victims. those are the examples i am interested in understanding - the ones i can't relate to.

 

[entropie]

To me its this:

Fi means self-preservation having the bad trait of egoism.
Fe means social-preservation having the bad trait of narcissm.

They are polar opposites thats why they conflict.

Relating Hitler to a Fe phaenomena is unscientific. Thats like me saying all Americans are dumb. There is definitly a connection (between dumb and american I ofc mean ) but its way too way on the surface. The dynamic that let to Hitler rising to power was an uneducated society, who got their newest news from gossip or nsdap party events in the street, cause they had no television, no connection to the outer world. they were steered by propaganda. In fact in that times it needed you to be very social critical, having a net into other countries to get information and you needed to be a very strong maverick that fought against society. of course that sounds very Fi but I am the example who disproves the sole Fi theory: I am a Fe user and still I am a misantroph. I|ld like to bomb them all to a desert island and lead a live alone and in solitude.

 

[Society]

To me its this:

Fi means self-preservation having the bad trait of egoism.
Fe means social-preservation having the bad trait of narcissm.

if this is true, and while ignoring the place of sx, we could expect the instinctual variants to be:
Fi users - sx/sp sp/sx sp/so
Fe users - sx/so so/sx so/sp

that would be interesting... it does fit with me (Fe - sx/so)... are there any statistics matching MBTI with instinctual variants?

 

[Winds of Thor]

Most ENFPs seem to like being around. And they're fun. They get combative though. And when I'm feeling vulnerable that's a real problem.

 

[Winds of Thor]

...All ENTPs may function the same, but they are DIFFERENT PEOPLE, who grew up in different backgrounds, with different friends, with different IQs, etc....

Well put.

 

[pinkgraffiti]

first quote: what do you mean, how i would react? i respect their position. it's all relative and coming from a different education etc. maybe if i had their education i would be against abortion too. however, i will not tolerate any "moral codes" that remove freedom of other people (and i don't believe to have them myself). for example, i have nothing against religion, but i have a pet peeve with most religious organizations in that they insist on limiting people and telling them what to do. i don't tell anyone what to do and i don't want anyone doing that to me.
now, in the case that there is a big argument between me and someone that has a different moral code than mine and that we have to arrive to one conclusion and one only (moral killing, war etc): i have difficulty to make concessions and will tend to defend my side, mostly because I'm quite self-centered (this could be a flaw of Fi in fact)

second quote: you don't "need" a code. i told you before that i often find myself surprised that my morals do not change over time. its just the way i am. its not externally built or rationalized, it comes from inside. it just does not change, its innate and its called being coherent. i grow, i learn things, i become more flexible and better with people, but my principles don't change (god, are you human? why do we even have to debate over this, its seems so obvious to me, i want to cry of frustration )

third quote: I'm tired. you please come up with an example if you want to discuss something more real. i can't really think of anything right now.

that brings up a good question: do you view your moral code as yours or as an objective one that applies to all?

i have known Fi users, particularly ESFP & ISFPs, who have jumped to say "i know this is wrong" or even (for the MBTI aware) "my Fi grants me the ability to just know when something is wrong" when i was examining an ethical question with rational arguments on both sides... acting like there is one truth, one objective morality we should all adhere too, that they just magically know.

likewise, what about when Fi users disagree? for example:

what about when they contradict yours? how would you react to someone whose coherent inner truth and moral code and family values includes honor killing?

or maybe if i would bring more american topics - how would you react to someone whose moral code includes abortions (if your against them) or alternatively - the other extreme which i heard happening in the last few years - someone whose moral code supports executing abortion doctors?

in any of those cases, will you admire their moral backbone and standing for what they believe in, regardless if you share those values?




there are many traits that can define you as a person... many of them may change over time, but some will not, you learn them as you go along. why do you need a code to define yourself by? would you loose your sense of identity without it?

more so it is my understanding that there are as many ENFP 7s as their are ENFP 4s. what are they (and other non-4's) are getting out of this deal other then a sense of identity?



that's a bad example because its just as easy to object to the holocaust and the war out of empathy for it's victims point of view, the only places where Fi and Fe really diverge are when their are no victims. those are the examples i am interested in understanding - the ones i can't relate to.

 

[Lady_X]

that brings up a good question: do you view your moral code as yours or as an objective one that applies to all?

i have known Fi users, particularly ESFP & ISFPs, who have jumped to say "i know this is wrong" or even (for the MBTI aware) "my Fi grants me the ability to just know when something is wrong" when i was examining an ethical question with rational arguments on both sides... acting like there is one truth, one objective morality we should all adhere too, that they just magically know.

likewise, what about when Fi users disagree? for example:

what about when they contradict yours? how would you react to someone whose coherent inner truth and moral code and family values includes honor killing?

or maybe if i would bring more american topics - how would you react to someone whose moral code includes abortions (if your against them) or alternatively - the other extreme which i heard happening in the last few years - someone whose moral code supports executing abortion doctors?

in any of those cases, will you admire their moral backbone and standing for what they believe in, regardless if you share those values?




there are many traits that can define you as a person... many of them may change over time, but some will not, you learn them as you go along. why do you need a code to define yourself by? would you loose your sense of identity without it?

more so it is my understanding that there are as many ENFP 7s as their are ENFP 4s. what are they (and other non-4's) are getting out of this deal other then a sense of identity?



that's a bad example because its just as easy to object to the holocaust and the war out of empathy for it's victims point of view, the only places where Fi and Fe really diverge are when their are no victims. those are the examples i am interested in understanding - the ones i can't relate to.

that's a hard question to answer. i think there are many instances where i'm just speaking from my perspective without going as far to judge others who don't share it. nfps and maybe sfps in general can be some of the most nonjudgmental types and when pressed or debated on certain topics we feel strongly on still just hold true to our view without interest in changing yours. i personally feel everyone is entitled to their own truth...it doesn't make mine feel any less true to me. this is how i feel or what i feel is right...and by right...yes i guess you could say that to me it feels like the truth....and no...i don't have any sort of extra respect for anyone holding to values that i find absurd just for the mere fact that they have values. there's a difference between understanding how one could have such a value and agreeing with it or respecting it. i don't respect or agree with honor killing but understand how some could...i don't respect or agree with certain crazy(to me) religious practices but i understand how one brought up around it could feel differently...i also find myself even sympathizing with people who have done horrible things if given any info on horrible things done to them...

so...as strongly as i feel about certain things being inherently right or wrong i also understand at a core level how everyones experience is different and that most everyone does what they feel is right based on the life they have had and lessons they have learned up until that point...know what i mean?

 

[Society]

god, are you human? why do we even have to debate over this, its seems so obvious to me, i want to cry of frustration )

exactly! that sense of distance and alienation goes both ways, and that's what i'm trying to solve here. i want to gain an understanding of Fi users so that when Fi surfaces it is something i can relate to and doesn't come across as white noise in the radio signal.

I'm tired.

you know, given that this is an online forum, you can pretty much answer whenever you feel like it.... there's no schedual or anything, there's no social pressure to be a good host or keep your peers entertained... which means there's rarely a reason for you to answer when your tired and want to get some sleep, or when your hungry and want to get a snack, in fact if you need to pee mid writing a post you can just go ahead to the bathroom and do it without escusing yourself. nobody will ever know...

but in order to come up with examples that would apply to you i'd need to know your moral principles. otherwise i'd just be shooting a dart in the dark... someone will loose an eye.

 

[Society]

so...as strongly as i feel about certain things being inherently right or wrong i also understand at a core level how everyones experience is different and that most everyone does what they feel is right based on the life they have had and lessons they have learned up until that point...know what i mean?

ok, this is the right track right here: your life lessons. how did they gave rise to your principles?

can you give me any examples?