[MBTI General] ENTP/ENFP relationship?

[pinkgraffiti]

i need back up soon before you send me into an identity crisis! where are the other ENFPs/Fi users?

 

[Society]

i need back up soon before you send me into an identity crisis! where are the other ENFPs/Fi users?

sure - these forums are built for it...

paging the thread's ENFPs:
[MENTION=5418]Lady X[/MENTION]
[MENTION=9160]HelenOfTroy[/MENTION]
[MENTION=8971]ilovereeses[/MENTION]
[MENTION=15299]DisneyFanGirl[/MENTION]
[MENTION=8904]Esoteric Wench[/MENTION]
[MENTION=9789]MafiaAngel180[/MENTION]
[MENTION=5397]Wild horses[/MENTION]
[MENTION=4753]LunaIndigo[/MENTION]
[MENTION=4486]ConchShell[/MENTION]
[MENTION=4737]Rachelinpa[/MENTION]


would you feel guilty or ashamed if you where found inconsistent in your principles? would you feel guilty even if you were not found?

can you think of any examples in which your principles are not the same as the ones your parents and/or authority figures have instilled in your early childhood?

if so, how old where you when they tried instilling the principles you didn't embrace as apposed to the principles which you did? did you find that the principles you didn't embrace inconsistent with the ones you did?

 

[pinkgraffiti]

"ashamed"? no. i'd feel angry with myself and confused and would have to retreat to understand how i really felt about something. again, the feeling is inside, it doesn't change, you might misinterpret it, you might not act on it, but it doesn't change. it's that nagging voice that tells you you did something wrong....(like pinocchio's conscience)

sure - these forums are built for it...

paging the thread's ENFPs:
[MENTION=5418]Lady X[/MENTION]
[MENTION=9160]HelenOfTroy[/MENTION]
[MENTION=8971]ilovereeses[/MENTION]
[MENTION=15299]DisneyFanGirl[/MENTION]
[MENTION=8904]Esoteric Wench[/MENTION]
[MENTION=9789]MafiaAngel180[/MENTION]
[MENTION=5397]Wild horses[/MENTION]
[MENTION=4753]LunaIndigo[/MENTION]
[MENTION=4486]ConchShell[/MENTION]
[MENTION=4737]Rachelinpa[/MENTION]


would you feel ashamed if you where found inconsistent in your principles? would you be ashamed of it even if you were not found?

can you think of any examples in which your principles are not the same as the ones your parents and/or authority figures have instilled in your early childhood?

if so, how old where you when they tried instilling the principles you didn't embrace as apposed to the principles which you did? did you find that the principles you didn't embrace inconsistent with the ones you did?

 

[Society]

it's that nagging voice that tells you you did something wrong....

right, i'll change that to guilt.

 

[Lady_X]

it's just that...i don't think fi or fe is inherently good...by nature. people can have fucked up ideals with either one i think. i think it's just part of your development. as you grow you are defining yourself and your beliefs...i think those you were raised with that feel right to you are easy...and the ones you weren't may become a struggle later as you define yourself but in the end it's you who decides.

it is interesting tho for sure..

 

[entropie]

it's just that...i don't think fi or fe is inherently good...by nature. people can have fucked up ideals with either one i think. i think it's just part of your development. as you grow you are defining yourself and your beliefs...i think those you were raised with that feel right to you are easy...and the ones you weren't may become a struggle later as you define yourself but in the end it's you who decides.

it is interesting tho for sure..

Exactly. This what I meant all along as well. Neither Fi nor Fe has imo a mutually exclusive right to automatically develop principles. Because Fi thinking is concerned with the self, it often does produce principles; while Fe thinking can help you to sell your principles in society, without alienating people. Of course the latter one sometimes is oriented towards society, therefore you may develop principles which were transferred by society and aint actually those you need for your personal development. Thats when the yin and yang principle comes into play again and that life is about balance and when you can need a Fi person to help you.

But and thats the bottom line, mbti is not enough to help you developing your own personality and principles. Basically you shouldnt start with mbti before you havent fortified yourself in your personality to some extent. Sadly this is wishful thinking and in reality hardly possible.

 

[ilovereeses]

would you feel guilty or ashamed if you where found inconsistent in your principles? would you feel guilty even if you were not found?

can you think of any examples in which your principles are not the same as the ones your parents and/or authority figures have instilled in your early childhood?

if so, how old where you when they tried instilling the principles you didn't embrace as apposed to the principles which you did? did you find that the principles you didn't embrace inconsistent with the ones you did?

To the first question: Yes, absolutely. No one would take me or my opinions seriously. Who wants advice from a hypocrite? Or someone who is easily swayed by influence?

Most of my principles are the same as my parent's, especially my dad. It's because they are respectable people and are thoroughly consistant in their beliefs. For example, my mom is extremely frugal. I see the benefits from it and so I became extremely frugal. At first I hated it because she enforced it on me since I was born, but I grew to understand once I left for college and got time away from her.

I hate being told what to do lol. So if anyone tries to do that, I won't listen, no matter how right they are.

 

[entropie]

To the first question: Yes, absolutely. No one would take me or my opinions seriously. Who wants advice from a hypocrite? Or someone who is easily swayed by influence?

Most of my principles are the same as my parent's, especially my dad. It's because they are respectable people and are thoroughly consistant in their beliefs. For example, my mom is extremely frugal. I see the benefits from it and so I became extremely frugal. At first I hated it because she enforced it on me since I was born, but I grew to understand once I left for college and got time away from her.

I hate being told what to do lol. So if anyone tries to do that, I won't listen, no matter how right they are.

Except for its an intj telling you what to do with muscles of steel and shimmering manlinke sweat dropping in the sunlight, no ?!

 

[Betty Blue]

sure - these forums are built for it...

paging the thread's ENFPs:
[MENTION=5418]Lady X[/MENTION]
[MENTION=9160]HelenOfTroy[/MENTION]
[MENTION=8971]ilovereeses[/MENTION]
[MENTION=15299]DisneyFanGirl[/MENTION]
[MENTION=8904]Esoteric Wench[/MENTION]
[MENTION=9789]MafiaAngel180[/MENTION]
[MENTION=5397]Wild horses[/MENTION]
[MENTION=4753]LunaIndigo[/MENTION]
[MENTION=4486]ConchShell[/MENTION]
[MENTION=4737]Rachelinpa[/MENTION]


would you feel guilty or ashamed if you where found inconsistent in your principles? would you feel guilty even if you were not found?

Umm, do you mean holding contradictory principals? Because i have plenty of those, they are/seem to be inconsistant. They make sense to me and if someone else has many hours in which to listen to my explanations they will probably make sense to them too,.. not to say they would be in agreement but they would understand. I don't feel guilty about that at all... i make no excuses for it either.

can you think of any examples in which your principles are not the same as the ones your parents and/or authority figures have instilled in your early childhood?

Oh plenty! But my parents are fairly open minded so it's hard for them not to be accepting of the differences. I debate far more with my father (ENTP) than my mother (ENFP). With my mother we more "discuss" as we are both quite careful not to upset each other... pft what am i saying... we really really rub up the wrong way at times... but in more of an emotional way... responding to each others tones ...picking up on vibes etc.

if so, how old where you when they tried instilling the principles you didn't embrace as apposed to the principles which you did? did you find that the principles you didn't embrace inconsistent with the ones you did?

Not really sure on this..umm...
I do remember walking out of the house and going to sunday school around the age of 8...my parents were very opposed to this as they were not religious but i wanted to learn and to find out about christianity and christians... so off i trotted. They did eventually understand this. I'm trying to think more generally but it's hard to pinpoint anything. I was always rebellious but it was really difficult being rebellious when i had such accepting parents... probably too accepting.

 

[Betty Blue]

sure - these forums are built for it...

paging the thread's ENFPs:
[MENTION=5418]Lady X[/MENTION]
[MENTION=9160]HelenOfTroy[/MENTION]
[MENTION=8971]ilovereeses[/MENTION]
[MENTION=15299]DisneyFanGirl[/MENTION]
[MENTION=8904]Esoteric Wench[/MENTION]
[MENTION=9789]MafiaAngel180[/MENTION]
[MENTION=5397]Wild horses[/MENTION]
[MENTION=4753]LunaIndigo[/MENTION]
[MENTION=4486]ConchShell[/MENTION]
[MENTION=4737]Rachelinpa[/MENTION]


would you feel guilty or ashamed if you where found inconsistent in your principles? would you feel guilty even if you were not found?

Umm, do you mean holding contradictory principals? Because i have plenty of those, they are/seem to be inconsistant. They make sense to me and if someone else has many hours in which to listen to my explanations they will probably make sense to them too,.. not to say they would be in agreement but they would understand. I don't feel guilty about that at all... i make no excuses for it either.

can you think of any examples in which your principles are not the same as the ones your parents and/or authority figures have instilled in your early childhood?

Oh plenty! But my parents are fairly open minded so it's hard for them not to be accepting of the differences. I debate far more with my father (ENTP) than my mother (ENFP). With my mother we more "discuss" as we are both quite careful not to upset each other... pft what am i saying... we really really rub up the wrong way at times... but in more of an emotional way... responding to each others tones ...picking up on vibes etc.

if so, how old where you when they tried instilling the principles you didn't embrace as apposed to the principles which you did? did you find that the principles you didn't embrace inconsistent with the ones you did?

Not really sure on this..umm...
I do remember walking out of the house and going to sunday school around the age of 8...my parents were very opposed to this as they were not religious but i wanted to learn and to find out about christianity and christians... so off i trotted. They did eventually understand this. I'm trying to think more generally but it's hard to pinpoint anything. I was always rebellious but it was really difficult being rebellious when i had such accepting parents... probably too accepting.


Oh right... but if you are looking at my holding conflicting views because of my own and those of my parents not being one and the same then theres not much to tell because there are a lot of similarities...also a lot of differences but i refer back to the above.


EDIT: Actually there is, theres a lot more to say on this...hmm i need to think about it and come back.

 

[entropie]

So we can conclude that entp and enfp aint too bad and that its dependant on how much every party is willing to invest in the relationship, like with every relationship. And that we shouldnt let ourselves be guided by madeup book definitions like Fi and Ti being contradictonary terms and therefore a relationship isnt possible, but rather test ourselves in reality and find out thru real life experience whats possible and whats not.

High 5 ?!

 

[Lady_X]

i really really wish i knew if my ex boyfriend was an enfp on entp it was very hard to tell.

 

[entropie]

i really really wish i knew if my ex boyfriend was an enfp on entp it was very hard to tell.

Even if you would know, it wouldnt change your past and only cloud your mind in the future. I think that sometimes the talent of Ne-doms to being able to start every day as a new day without luggage from the past, is a greater help than the rest of the world tries to make us believe.

 

[Society]

Even if you would know, it wouldnt change your past and only cloud your mind in the future. I think that sometimes the talent of Ne-doms to being able to start every day as a new day without luggage from the past, is a greater help than the rest of the world tries to make us believe.

i don't think functions have anything to do with it - people look to the past when they feel that what want in life happens to be in their past.

if anything, Ne makes you see oppertunities in past situations, which can make letting go of the past harder.

 

[entropie]

i don't think functions have anything to do with it - people look to the past when they feel that what want in life happens to be in their past.

if anything, Ne makes you see oppertunities in past situations, which can make letting go of the past harder.

Sure you aint intp with that high demand for correctness in you ?

Yea I didnt mean Ne, what I meant was enthusiasm, which is different from functions.

 

[sculpting]

hahaha, same, i'm pretty sure many of our generation where (i'm guessing Y)...

so... *digs under the joke* your saying that your principles are the ones you where raised with? and Fi just made them... important? desirable?

[MENTION=13377]pinkgraffiti[/MENTION], what about you? at some point in your earlier life you read about Kant's catagorical imperative and just... embraced it? connected with it?

your Fi basically just gets you people.. emotionally attached to rules? like it's a person or a brilliant idea or a favorite food? and you got attached to those rules throughout life? going about it the same way you'd go about every day nurturing your child or taking care of a pet you love?

am i getting any of this right?

The way Fi feels to me is a bit like really complex fuzzy principles grounded in a physiological, visceral network. (The INFPs describe it as being like a tree with big and little branches, where thickness is the importance of the value in question)

These fuzzy principles derive from childhood. Each time I perceived someone else to be hurt, I internally, emphatically reflected their hurt as my own. In a physiological way, where my stomach gets tense and I get anxious and I can internally "feel" a mimic of whatever their hurt was. Each time this happens, the unpleasantness builds in an "away-from" reaction and those things that cause pain for others become labeled as "bad". Over time, the expereinces add up to produce a generalized, abstract value-principles.

For instance "speaking harshly to another is bad" might be a value. If I violate this and speak harshly, I internally feel anxious, stressed, guilty and even a bit ill.

However eventually things get more complicated...what if a person is hurting another person? It is bad to let that continue.

Thus now it becomes a value-principle weighing process. "Speaking harshly is bad" vs "letting others be hurt is bad".

Thus I may speak up and defend the other person in a harsh manner...and feel no guilt as internally I was okay with the second value-principle overruling the first, as it serves to be consistent with a much deeper core value of "people should not be hurt".

Complicating the matter is that there are a number of very core values-do not hurt others, maintain integrity, be forthright, be dedicated, be responsible...all which have to be weighed in each situation to determine the best answer.

The values seem to start off fairly broad and simplistic, however with age and experience, they develop more and more complexity and refinement-resolution. The values can also be context specific to the situation-thus a generalized value may not hold in a particular situation. (This is how new values form or resolution is added to an existing value)

As more Te grows in, the values also began to be viewed in a more global perspective. "it isnt okay to hurt others" vs "we all are part of the same work system and are dependent upon one another, and if you do not hold up your end of the deal and do your work, you need to be replaced" . Recognizing that it is now the benefit of an entire group at stake, it becomes okay to inflict some amount of hurt on the slacker, via letting them go find a new job elsewhere.

^^my perspective of course.

(As for the thread, I think enfp-entp would be extremely difficult to maintain as people develop their tert functions. We both use our tert function as an immature defensive tool, which we each, mutually, find very disagreeable to be on the receiving end of. enormous amounts of communication and acceptance would be required)

 

[mmhmm]

Yeah, I think there's something to that. Some of my most magnetic crushes have been on ENFPs. I just never acted on them, so shame on me.

why, hello there. <3

would you feel guilty or ashamed if you where found inconsistent in your principles? would you feel guilty even if you were not found?

well, having inconsistent views about everything is what makes
up a large part of who i am. to be honest, most of the time i don't
even "notice/realize/aware" i'm being inconsistent (to the outside world)
because:

1. there are just so many shades of gray in a situation - despite that i can
have a very black&white view of certain things - but i can totally block it out
when needed (see #2)

2. i have this crazy internal mechanism that can justify my actions about
anything, even if it doesn't line up with the external world.

on feeling guilt /ashamed

A) usually i just end up sulky-faced because "other people don't understand"
because they haven't taken in account the massive amounts of self-justification
and perspectives i've weaved in to justify whatever i did--(because honestly it's
not the outcome that i'm focused on, it's always about the pursuit and also
the joy of improvisation)

B) rarely is it guilt. guilt is when i know i've really done something wrong.
but i'm rarely wrong. See #1.

ie. say i lie to somebody. yes, lying is wrong. but then i can explain
the reason why i had to lie in the first place, and put it in context,
and frame it (and i usually expect people to understand--but most
don't--and i'll get upset over that)

because i don't automatically think that what i'm doing is being
a conniving little liar. but instead i think and believe that i handled
it the best i could, and thus if my intentions were "pure" in afterthought...
then i'm fine.

it's a very strange cycle to get out of--not that i think it's wrong
or bad, but i just think it's very limiting to what i thrive on in the
first place--perspectives, and other lenses i can see the world through.

so i struggle with trying not to do that (or what other people tend to
call "have accountability") -- i think mostly because it involves getting
over myself? and that's very hard to do.

 

[Istbkleta]

The way Fi feels ...

Why are you telling us this?


Btw, I disagree with you. It's not only the tetr, the aux is also problematic. I can't honestly say I am OK with the way Fi works. ENFPs are also "not fans of" Ti.

For a grotesque depiction of how the world percieves ENFPs, please see the character of Linda in

.

 

[entropie]

^Thats a classical entp: on the one hand we run around proclaiming that traditions are dead and people should think more innovatively and on the other hand we tell people how they are perceived by society. Its no wonder Fi people hate us, we work hard for it.

You shouldnt overestimate the power of your Fe. At times it may feel like there is no situation in the World we couldnt deal with and that this fact makes us the perfect candidates for saying what is socially accepted and what is not. Fact tho is that real personality only emerges when you critically face your values and analyze them for their worth. If you just lick asses and think that makes you the perfect candiate to tell people what to do, you are walking a dangerous path of loosing your mind. Fe is after all only tertiary in entps and only in combination with good humor and a refreshing mind its possible for us to use it at all. If you just one time spend a day with a Fe primary, you'll see quickly that most of the acceptance people have towards you, stems from them being nice to you but not necessarily because they find your shit hilarious.

Fe as tert function is our most prominent one to make us loose our minds and individuality. Therefore I wouldnt run around pointing nude fingers at well-dressed people.

 

[pinkgraffiti]

The way Fi feels to me is a bit like really complex fuzzy principles grounded in a physiological, visceral network. (The INFPs describe it as being like a tree with big and little branches, where thickness is the importance of the value in question)

These fuzzy principles derive from childhood. Each time I perceived someone else to be hurt, I internally, emphatically reflected their hurt as my own. In a physiological way, where my stomach gets tense and I get anxious and I can internally "feel" a mimic of whatever their hurt was. Each time this happens, the unpleasantness builds in an "away-from" reaction and those things that cause pain for others become labeled as "bad". Over time, the expereinces add up to produce a generalized, abstract value-principles.

For instance "speaking harshly to another is bad" might be a value. If I violate this and speak harshly, I internally feel anxious, stressed, guilty and even a bit ill.

However eventually things get more complicated...what if a person is hurting another person? It is bad to let that continue.

Thus now it becomes a value-principle weighing process. "Speaking harshly is bad" vs "letting others be hurt is bad".

Thus I may speak up and defend the other person in a harsh manner...and feel no guilt as internally I was okay with the second value-principle overruling the first, as it serves to be consistent with a much deeper core value of "people should not be hurt".

Complicating the matter is that there are a number of very core values-do not hurt others, maintain integrity, be forthright, be dedicated, be responsible...all which have to be weighed in each situation to determine the best answer.

The values seem to start off fairly broad and simplistic, however with age and experience, they develop more and more complexity and refinement-resolution. The values can also be context specific to the situation-thus a generalized value may not hold in a particular situation. (This is how new values form or resolution is added to an existing value)

As more Te grows in, the values also began to be viewed in a more global perspective. "it isnt okay to hurt others" vs "we all are part of the same work system and are dependent upon one another, and if you do not hold up your end of the deal and do your work, you need to be replaced" . Recognizing that it is now the benefit of an entire group at stake, it becomes okay to inflict some amount of hurt on the slacker, via letting them go find a new job elsewhere.

^^my perspective of course.

(As for the thread, I think enfp-entp would be extremely difficult to maintain as people develop their tert functions. We both use our tert function as an immature defensive tool, which we each, mutually, find very disagreeable to be on the receiving end of. enormous amounts of communication and acceptance would be required)

YES!!!! I love you!!