Enneagram 2s and 8s

[Fidelia]

I am just looking into enneagram stuff. I still haven't determined exactly what I think. However, it appears from the descriptions that I would be a 2w1 so/sx/sp. I also seem to be a sucker for 8s, yet see the pitfalls that come with falling for an unhealthy 8.

Just a few questions:

- Who else on the board is a 2?
- How important do you think the intinctual variants are in getting along well with someone else?
- What types do you tend to be attracted to and how has it worked out?
- What types do 8s tend to be?

 

[BlackCat]

Just FYI- Enneagram Type Two with Enneagram Type Eight

People who aren't educated in the variants won't think that they are important, just so you know.

 

[Fidelia]

I read that, but then they just tease you by telling you that you have to buy the book to find out what trouble the two have!

Do certain types tend towards having particular instinctual variants?

Are there other types than ENFJs that are typically 2s?

What do you consider "educated in" to mean? Do you think a lot of people just haven't read those descriptions, or that the significance of the variants' effects is downplayed by many?

 

[nanook]

i just dont believe in the existance of 2ish infx. 2=enfj

some angry esxp are 8ish, other than that it' usually extj who are 8, also some IXTj (8=direction of integration of 5).
EXTJ have the propper Fi shadow, that explains the 8ish pattern.
IXTj are usaully too paranoid, to perform a decent 8 persona, except maybe as family fathers. they are more like 1 and 6cp in public.

i dont take the enneagram as something rigid, you know, like "god given destiny".
so i dont believe you "are" one type. the type is somthing in you, among other things, like other types.
the existance of a type is a statistical probability, as there is a limited number of strategies of interacting with/realting to reality.

( it's funny how now one wants to be six. infx are often way more sixish, sometimes ninish, but they allways think of themselves as 4, just because they are introverted. that's rather understandable, and predictable. i blame it in part on the enneagram theories.)

 

[BlackCat]

It's pretty much __FJ, with E_FJ being the most common, that are 2's. My guess is that some enneagram and MBTI types tend to have certain instinctual stackings. Like I_T_ seems to be sp/sx very commonly. I haven't really noticed much else. I'll think about this more after I take a nap.

 

[Fidelia]

What about me though, nanook? I am most definitely an INFJ, yet also quite unmistakably a two. (The only other thing remotely close is a 1, but I think I struggle a lot more with feeling underappreciated and wanting to help people than with admitting and expressing anger. 4 or 9 as many INFJs are also doesn't fit me.) I am certainly not an ENFJ, even though I wondered at first because of coming out as a 2. I even started a thread about it!

 

[nanook]

i believe you, that you are a 2, because on your foto you look quite similar to me, as if you had the same cognitive functions that i have (Ni and Fe). yet your eyes are far more open, which indicates extroversion, and in this case probably dominant Fe. so i will asume that you are enfj. if you would be an NiFe type, then you would not have a natural preferenc for J, becaue NiFe people are perceivers

 

[Fidelia]

The reason there is higher extroversion is because of having to develop it as a teacher. It was not my natural bent at the beginning. It's taken a lot of conscious effort to develop over time.

 

[nanook]

enfj are often shy people and extroverstion is not a synonym for outgoing social behavior, only for adaptive social relations, which can mean "leraned behavioral introversion", depending on your family. (i dont want to influence you in your view of yourself, but i can write general arguments, i guess)

 

[Fidelia]

Yes, I realize that enfjs often don't come across as a typical extrovert. However, my mother is an ENFJ and we are quite different in terms of how responsible we feel for everyone else's feelings around us (she suffers unreasonable amounts of guilt and will go to the ends of the earth for people) as well as how expressive we are about opinions (she is compelled to react, whereas I am more likely to work behind the scenes or not say anything at the time. She is more impulsive in that sense.). I think I am pretty adaptive socially, but I would say she is distinctly more so.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

- How important do you think the intinctual variants are in getting along well with someone else?

Very. So much so that I'd consider using the instincts on their own long before using the MBTI or the other parts of the Enneagram to guess if people will get along.

- What types do 8s tend to be?

The MBTI seems to have at best a loose correlation. The two systems address different things and 9 can't be divided into 16, so you have a lot of problems trying to connect the two. I've seen almost every sort of 8. I haven't see an I_F_ 8 yet, that's about it. The most pervasive trend a found, and the only that seems to make much sense, is that 8s are usually Es. But like I said, it's not a tight fit, and there are plenty of Introverted 8s to go around.

Do certain types tend towards having particular instinctual variants?

My experience as well as my understanding of the system seems to say that there isn't a correlation between Enneagram core types and ones instinctual stacking. They all come in all flavors. I have found no correlation between MBTI an the instincts either. I can't really imagine why their would be a correlation between the MBTI and the instincts, given how radically different they are. Even something that seems to make sense, like me Fe-doms wouldn't have Self=Preservation as their primary instinct, is proven wrong by people on this forum all the time.

I essentially wouldn't try to figure out someone's type in one system by triangulating a conclusion out of the other two systems.

Are there other types than ENFJs that are typically 2s?

Well, considering what I said above... I will tentatively say that ISFJs, ESFJs, and INFJs are all probable. What usually doesn't seem to happen, or rather is very rare, is for a 2 to be some kind of Thinker.

What do you consider "educated in" to mean? Do you think a lot of people just haven't read those descriptions, or that the significance of the variants' effects is downplayed by many?

I know you're responding to him, but if I can pitch in: I'd say the instincts are definitely read about less than the other parts of the Enneagram, and in turn, people do underestimate or not even consider their importance.

 

[nanook]

and your mother is a tested, or a guessed enfj?

my interpretations of your features (eyes...) might be wrong. you might still be a dominant feeler, but Fi=INFj. but then you could not be a verry typical 2, imo.
given, than you are a teacher, i also cant believe you are a 4 who desintegrates into 2. (being a teacher requires a rather healthy integration of dominance, i guess)

all the daughters of raving enfj that i know (it's two of them) are best described as nines.

i dont know my own type, btw. i am ambigous enough, to be a nine.

other than that i am 6 and 5 aka paranoid and schizoid, but i am not any of both in a pure fasion. i have a nineish or fourish special effect on top of my 6&5.

my father might be esfj, or he is just a totally insane istj. can't tell.

 

[Fidelia]

Thanks Magic. I think BC and you are onto something with the variants. In what ways do you think it affects how you interact? I know that for the couple people I've met with the same variants I tend to be open with my thoughts and ideas (even if I know we don't agree) much more quickly than I normally would feel comfortable being.

Which of the two systems do you feel is most useful to you?

Nanook - she was tested as that. Not that that is always reliable, but it seems to be backed up with what I've seen of ENFJs on the forum as well.

 

[nanook]

this is how i picture esfp who are or wanna be 8

(modell for vivian westwood)

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Thanks Magic. I think BC and you are onto something with the variants. In what ways do you think it affects how you interact? I know that for the couple people I've met with the same variants I tend to be open with my thoughts and ideas (even if I know we don't agree) much more quickly than I normally would feel comfortable being.

In short, the instincts basically refer to personal interests, and I mean interests sort of the same way one would mean in "national interest". It influences how people get along because it's a measure of what a person's priotities are. We pursue the major instinct as an end to itself, its likely to contain our life ambition. We neglect and avoid the minor instinct, it is burdensome to us and we often trick ourselves into thinking we don't need it. The median instinct, is fairly neutral, and more a less a device. We tend to it, but we'll sacrifice it for the major instinct if necessary. Often the median instinct becomes a device for the major instinct.

These things are important when considering who you're with. Just imagine after all, if social is your major instinct and it is the other person's minor instinct. Maybe you can form an associative relationship, but it's easy to see how a sharing, reciprocating relationship with such a person would be very difficult.

For the record though, I don't think a complete aligmnet is the best relationshp. This is just my own theory, but I think a couple that relates like this:

A-B-C <> A-C-B

Is healthier than two people that are identical.

Which of the two systems do you feel is most useful to you?

Do you mean the main Enneagram vs the instincts? If you do, I'd say the instincts, because they are less muddled in almost every way. It seems to me that both the MBTI and Enneagram suffer from an attempt to be too encompassing. There's a lot the instincts won't explain, but at least they are good for their purpose.

 

[Fidelia]

Eeeek!!! Ugly ESTP gold chain wearing men is NOT what I'm talking about!!!

 

[Saslou]

- Who else on the board is a 2?
- How important do you think the intinctual variants are in getting along well with someone else?
- What types do you tend to be attracted to and how has it worked out?

1 - :hi: 2w1 sx/so
2 - I don't have a need to get along with everyone although people do seem to like me for some reason. People can come to me with problems and i become so focused, that i think with pure logic and try and get them to rationalise the situation. Or maybe i am just a good friend to have.
3 - I am attracted to thinkers .. They are walking libraries who can give me more input. Not worked out good so far .. But i still have faith

 

[Fidelia]

Oh sorry Magic - I mean MBTI vs Enneagram. Or do you find them useful for separate types of things? Yes, I wondered if people would be too alike if they had exactly the same variants. So for me, I'd probably mesh best with someone whose were so/sp/sx?

Hello Sas! I know what you mean about Thinkers.

 

[Giggly]

I'm a 2, but I don't know enough about the enneagram types to know which types I'm attracted to, so I can't comment.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Oh sorry Magic - I mean MBTI vs Enneagram. Or do you find them useful for separate types of things?

Difficult choice. I'd say they are about equally useful for different things.

Yes, I wondered if people would be too alike if they had exactly the same variants. So for me, I'd probably mesh best with someone whose were so/sp/sx?

Yep, you've got it right. Or, as I like to call them S-P-Is. You'd be a S-I-P.
So much simpler, and neater looking, and all 6 combinations are phonetically pronounceable.

My reasoning is that, obviously, it's good for people to have superordinate goals, so you'll want another social person. But on the other hand, it seems when people share the same minor instinct, they feed each other's weaknesses. I would bet that someone who completely aligns with you would be more appealing on the surface, but I think it would be a mistake to some extents.