[ENFP] Do you find ENFPs charming?

[Abcdenfp]

Really. My prefered topics are like: Geo politics, hard science and it's applying, budgets/business plans, board games, mountain climbing, technology, forcing/debating people how to fix problems, etc. Therefore I don't really have much in common with very charming people, since we don't focus on the same things. What has the tendency to make longer socializations pointless, especially because you can make them uncomfortable just by saying that you never prayed in your life, that you made the whole chart about how development of human civilization can develope from this point forwards, you can make them feel inferior since you finished college at your second language, or shock them by telling them stories about what you been through life ... etc. Charming people generally prefer to have their emotions mirrored or supported instead of having their worldviews crushed or attacked. Therefore often I have no desire to engage such people since they usually don't have anything that interest me. I generally feel choked by such people.

Is it your aim to crush or attack someone's world view? Perhaps deeply religious people would be made uncomfortable by the fact that you have never prayed in your life, but being deeply religious is not exclusive to charming people or fools.
Narcissist perhaps want to have their emotions mirrored or supported unconditionally.
There is no evidence to say that a person who was charming would not sit down and happily observe your collection of data to show how human civilization can develop from this point onwards.
What may choke you is that some charming people want to know who you are not what you've done. And there aren't enough spreadsheets and charts in the world for this.

 

[anticlimatic]

Two thumbs way up.

 

[geedoenfj]

Yes, but you you claim to be Fe-dom and therefore you probably aren't aware when you do that.
The problem with such people is that it is awkward to just go with them to the bottom of things ... and that is where I want to go in pretty much in all cases. As you probably already noticed in my posts in "politics" that I am the guy that brings paradigm changes as well as "darkside atmosphere" to the table. Therefore charming people generally but indirectly force me to fake things or to stay away. What is frustarating since it is "wrong" to just hit them with what is really on your mind.

I don't think it has to do with being Fe dom, what you're describing sounds more like a lack of Ni, I usually struggle to get Ne right to the core of the issues..

Are you referring to toning down the expression? Well yeah to some level I think I get what you mean, but I assure you it's not about being charming, it has other reasons, even if it eventually leads to "Charming"

 

[Population: 1]

Depends on your idea of what is truly charming in a personality. There's the typical charismatic charmer whose sincerity is about as deep as the candy shell of an M&M, then there is a deeper more honest charm that you don't absorb through brief contact at social gatherings. I prefer the latter. I'd define some of the ENFPs I've known as more infectiously exciting than charming. Not a bad thing, just different.

By the way I love M&M's thin candy shell because beneath sits chocolate goodness! Perhaps it was a bad comparison.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Is it your aim to crush or attack someone's world view? Perhaps deeply religious people would be made uncomfortable by the fact that you have never prayed in your life, but being deeply religious is not exclusive to charming people or fools.
Narcissist perhaps want to have their emotions mirrored or supported unconditionally.
There is no evidence to say that a person who was charming would not sit down and happily observe your collection of data to show how human civilization can develop from this point onwards.
What may choke you is that some charming people want to know who you are not what you've done. And there aren't enough spreadsheets and charts in the world for this.

I am well aware of that since I had this conversation with ENFPs quite a number of times here and my mother also happens to be one. (and she thinks I am a Nazi regarding the decisionmaking, what is exactly because she was quite bad at that, even by ENFP standards). Regarding the future of humanity: I have placed everything into 4+1 model: 4 general directions plus one some of the religions is somehow right and therefore I think I have it under control, since I don't go into specifics of when and where. However yes, I often think I have to attack other people's worldviews since I am certain they are build on bad logic or unchecked information, therefore those conclusions are dangerous and at least everybody should be noted that we seem to have a problem coming out of those conclusions..


However regardless of all of that I usually don't really enjoy the company of ENFPs even if I know a fair amount of them. They are just too sweet, random and postitive that I don't know what to do with them. Even in various test results often claim that I might hate or dislike pretty much everything that typical ENFP would find "important in life". However I have more positive opinion about ENFJs since that Jsness makes a huge difference to me. We may no agree but at least we think on the same wavelenght.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I don't think it has to do with being Fe dom, what you're describing sounds more like a lack of Ni, I usually struggle to get Ne right to the core of the issues..

Are you referring to toning down the expression? Well yeah to some level I think I get what you mean, but I assure you it's not about being charming, it has other reasons, even if it eventually leads to "Charming"

Yes, lack of Ni may be the case for sure, since I have much more problems with people who are on Ne/Si axis. I mean I can talk to anybody, but if the person is too eager to make good or positive impression and prefers trendy/happy topics the odds are that fairly quckly we will stay out of topics for natural flow of conversations.

 

[Abcdenfp]

I am well aware of that since I had this conversation with ENFPs quite a number of times here and my mother also happens to be one. (and she thinks I am a Nazi regarding the decisionmaking, what is exactly because she was quite bad at that, even by ENFP standards). Regarding the future of humanity: I have placed everything into 4+1 model: 4 general directions plus one some of the religions is somehow right and therefore I think I have it under control, since I don't go into specifics of when and where. However yes, I often think I have to attack other people's worldviews since I am certain they are build on bad logic or unchecked information, therefore those conclusions are dangerous and at least everybody should be noted that we seem to have a problem coming out of those conclusions.. However regardless of all of that I usually don't really enjoy the company of ENFPs even if I know a fair amount of them. They are just too sweet, random and postitive that I don't know what to do with them. Even in various test results often claim that I might hate or dislike pretty much everything that typical ENFP would find "important in life". However I have more positive opinion about ENFJs since that Jsness makes a huge difference to me. We may no agree but at least we think on the same wavelenght.

This makes a lot of sense to me, thank you for really taking the time to explain how you feel. I could totally see how our inability to be focused at times would make you feel out of sorts and off balance.
As I would find your need for rigid thinking with facts and data to back it along with the need to be justified in your thinking stifling and restricting.
However I would find your views and ideas/concepts fascinating and I enjoy watching and appreciate listening to someone who looks at the world so differently share their version of passion.

 

[hav]

A good friend of mine is an ENFP. She is able to have spontaneous and high quality conversations with pretty much anyone, and she always brightens up the mood; one-on-one or in a group. Also, she is one of the most humorous people I know of. I'm always amazed at how many friends she has, it seems like in every city, she has at least five friends. A very special person, filled with goodness and genuineness. However, she does fall short on temperament and is very easily offended at times. For example: we are on the opposite sides of the political spectrum, which in and of itself I do not mind at all, but the way she approaches it is different from how I do it. She seems emotionally attached to her world views. In a debate if I do not agree with her, it won't be long until she goes absolutely savage, screaming and accusing me of a bunch of things! I have been called a 'brainwashed cultist', a psychopath etcetera. 'Brainwashed cultist' because I'm a catholic, psychopath because I do not think that eating meat is wrong or that animals have the same value as human beings. Nonetheless, I would say she is a generally charming person, at least when she wakes up on the right side of bed.

 

[Virtual ghost]

This makes a lot of sense to me, thank you for really taking the time to explain how you feel. I could totally see how our inability to be focused at times would make you feel out of sorts and off balance. As I would find your need for rigid thinking with facts and data to back it along with the need to be justified in your thinking stifling and restricting. However I would find your views and ideas/concepts fascinating and I enjoy watching and appreciate listening to someone who looks at the world so differently share their version of passion.

Stifling and restricting ?
That is probably understatement if I drop the mask completely. I can really be "horrible" person and impossible to deal with.

Visual big five, relative to other test takers

Openess: 76%
Conscientiousness: 97%
Extraversion: 66%
Agreeableness 0%
Neuroticism 4%

Just yesterday I attacked my parents about money management and they were quite uncomfortable, what is generally the case when I start to show my real thoughts. Therefore I have the tendency to keep away from more laid back people since our energies don't mix too well. Therefore I often have to hit the brakes around them and if that continues to happen I feel out of balance. Because my goal isn't understanding, what happens to be the case with all ENFPs, but to actually gather information or people and make something concrete out of that. What means that we are thinking fundamentally on different planes. Part of me even thinks about ventureing into politics so that I finnally start to use my judgemet for something where it makes a real difference. Understanding is good but I need concrete follow up that comes after understanding, while ENFPs just jump to another topic.

 

[Abcdenfp]

A good friend of mine is an ENFP. She is able to have spontaneous and high quality conversations with pretty much anyone, and she always brightens up the mood; one-on-one or in a group. Also, she is one of the most humorous people I know of. I'm always amazed at how many friends she has, it seems like in every city, she has at least five friends. A very special person, filled with goodness and genuineness. However, she does fall short on temperament and is very easily offended at times. For example: we are on the opposite sides of the political spectrum, which in and of itself I do not mind at all, but the way she approaches it is different from how I do it. She seems emotionally attached to her world views. In a debate if I do not agree with her, it won't be long until she goes absolutely savage, screaming and accusing me of a bunch of things! I have been called a 'brainwashed cultist', a psychopath etcetera. 'Brainwashed cultist' because I'm a catholic, psychopath because I do not think that eating meat is wrong or that animals have the same value as human beings. Nonetheless, I would say she is a generally charming person, at least when she wakes up on the right side of bed.

spot on with the becoming savage and screaming accusations. A very good friend recently explain to me how it made him feel every time I defended my position so hard that it made it seem as though I had no regard for how they felt about the issue and that made me take a step back and understand that everyone is actually entitled to their opinion and although I don't agree with it I will respect it moving forward
and we are emotionally attached I will be in this very motional he attached to most things that we have an opinion on that's just how it is

 

[Abcdenfp]

Stifling and restricting ? That is probably understatement if I drop the mask completely. I can really be "horrible" person and impossible to deal with.

Visual big five, relative to other test takers Openess: 76% Conscientiousness: 97% Extraversion: 66% Agreeableness 0% Neuroticism 4%

Just yesterday I attacked my parents about money management and they were quite uncomfortable, what is generally the case when I start to show my real thoughts. Therefore I have the tendency to keep away from more laid back people since our energies don't mix too well. Therefore I often have to hit the brakes around them and if that continues to happen I feel out of balance. Because my goal isn't understanding, what happens to be the case with all ENFPs, but to actually gather information or people and make something concrete out of that. What means that we are thinking fundamentally on different planes. Part of me even thinks about ventureing into politics so that I finnally start to use my judgemet for something where it makes a real difference. Understanding is good but I need concrete follow up that comes after understanding, while ENFPs just jump to another topic.

I think just as impassioned as we are about understanding about people getting things right and doing it the way that you think it should be done but it's only right in your view and who can really live up to that expectation of how someone else wants it so strictly
People always going to do what they want regardless and some factor are going to Remain unpredictable there's always going to be things that come up that are not calculated for and as an ENFP we are able to go with the flow with that
for you it makes you more rigid and hard lined which makes you go into attack mode. I too don't like inconsistency which I think is the main basis of your problem with enfps we tend to spend a great deal of time with lots of enthusiasm on something only to drop it edventually.
for me it's been a personal goal to finish what I start and after writing three books and opening a successful restaurant I think I've done a pretty god darn job of that it's just putting into practice in every other aspect of my life

 

[Virtual ghost]

I think just as impassioned as we are about understanding about people getting things right and doing it the way that you think it should be done but it's only right in your view and who can really live up to that expectation of how someone else wants it so strictly
People always going to do what they want regardless and some factor are going to Remain unpredictable there's always going to be things that come up that are not calculated for and as an ENFP we are able to go with the flow with that
for you it makes you more rigid and hard lined which makes you go into attack mode. I too don't like inconsistency which I think is the main basis of your problem with enfps we tend to spend a great deal of time with lots of enthusiasm on something only to drop it edventually.
for me it's been a personal goal to finish what I start and after writing three books and opening a successful restaurant I think I've done a pretty god darn job of that it's just putting into practice in every other aspect of my life

Yes, but when I am demanding I am demanding for a reason. I don't attack people just for the fun of it or on the personal level, and if that is what it takes I can even explain why I think what I think. I can be demanding but I am not a jerk. Also I disagree that always things will be left in the air and that is something that every ENFP I have met is prone too, because if that was true there would never be plans and operations that came completely by the plan and that obviously isn't the case. If you make rigid plans on questionable info that will fail. Therefore what you have to do is study the issue and do contigency planning, what greatly reduces the "unexprected events" factor. One ENFP once said to me that I am best organizer she ever met and that could easily be one of nicest things anyone ever said to me.


However with ENFPs and similar types I always had "connection problem" that never went away. We just care about different things in life, especially since all ENFPs have Sx instinct developed and in my case Sx instinct is blind spot. In other words Sx instinct is pretty much the same thing as being charming. However dating a ENFP perhaps would not be a bad thing for me if we have something in common, since I am too deep in the "dark side". However despite knowing plenty of ENFPs through years I am not sure that I know one that is trully healthy and full person.


So to end the story: ENFP is potentially wonderful type but I have trouble finding common ground with them.

 

[Coriolis]

Yes, but you you claim to be Fe-dom and therefore you probably aren't aware when you do that.
The problem with such people is that it is awkward to just go with them to the bottom of things ... and that is where I want to go in pretty much in all cases. As you probably already noticed in my posts in "politics" that I am the guy that brings paradigm changes as well as "darkside atmosphere" to the table. Therefore charming people generally but indirectly force me to fake things or to stay away. What is frustarating since it is "wrong" to just hit them with what is really on your mind.

I have found the ENFPs I know to be some of the few people I can "hit with what is really on my mind". Even if they disagree, and tell me so, they seem to take it in stride more than other types and be open to discussing it.

My prefered topics are like: Geo politics, hard science and it's applying, budgets/business plans, board games, mountain climbing, technology, forcing/debating people how to fix problems, etc. Therefore I don't really have much in common with very charming people, since we don't focus on the same things. What has the tendency to make longer socializations pointless, especially because you can make them uncomfortable just by saying that you never prayed in your life, that you made the whole chart about how development of human civilization can develope from this point forwards, you can make them feel inferior since you finished college at your second language, or shock them by telling them stories about what you been through life ... etc. Charming people generally prefer to have their emotions mirrored or supported instead of having their worldviews crushed or attacked. Therefore often I have no desire to engage such people since they usually don't have anything that interest me. I generally feel choked by such people.

It is true that these ENFPs don't share some of my interests, but on topics of interest to both of us, such as literature, politics and religion/theology, I can have conversations with them of unusual depth and range. They show me sides to the topic that I have not considered before, and they tell me I do the same for them. But then I don't call this quality "charm".

(Interestingly one of these people is a pastor in a mainstream Protestant denomination. Even on religious topics, she never takes offense and respects my PoV.)

However I have more positive opinion about ENFJs since that Jsness makes a huge difference to me. We may no agree but at least we think on the same wavelenght.

Now see - the few ENFJs I know border on the disingenuous. They seem to so want to have harmony and have everyone happily doing what they are meant to do, that they will say anything to people to give them that reassurance, even if there is no way they can deliver. As a result they are very pleasant people to be around (a form of charming, I suppose), but I wouldn't trust them farther than I can throw them. My last boss was like this.

Stifling and restricting ?
That is probably understatement if I drop the mask completely. I can really be "horrible" person and impossible to deal with.

Just yesterday I attacked my parents about money management and they were quite uncomfortable, what is generally the case when I start to show my real thoughts. Therefore I have the tendency to keep away from more laid back people since our energies don't mix too well. Therefore I often have to hit the brakes around them and if that continues to happen I feel out of balance. Because my goal isn't understanding, what happens to be the case with all ENFPs, but to actually gather information or people and make something concrete out of that. What means that we are thinking fundamentally on different planes. Part of me even thinks about ventureing into politics so that I finnally start to use my judgemet for something where it makes a real difference. Understanding is good but I need concrete follow up that comes after understanding, while ENFPs just jump to another topic.

I think NTJs have a greater capacity for this than most other types, in that not only are we capable of expressing ourselves that way, we are less likely to self-censor. I had similar experiences with my own parents, on similarly practical issues, and learned to save that sort of bluntness for situations of real import.

If you make rigid plans on questionable info that will fail. Therefore what you have to do is study the issue and do contigency planning, what greatly reduces the "unexprected events" factor. One ENFP once said to me that I am best organizer she ever met and that could easily be one of nicest things anyone ever said to me.

I am the same way, and it is here in fact that I have had my greatest problems with ENFPs. They seem to have no interest in or appreciation for this sort of planning. I have to catch them literally in the moment - then they are great fun. But to try to plan a visit or an activity together - it's lke pulling teeth, even if I gladly do all the work and just invite them along for the ride.

 

[Abcdenfp]

I have found the ENFPs I know to be some of the few people I can "hit with what is really on my mind". Even if they disagree, and tell me so, they seem to take it in stride more than other types and be open to discussing it. It is true that these ENFPs don't share some of my interests, but on topics of interest to both of us, such as literature, politics and religion/theology, I can have conversations with them of unusual depth and range. They show me sides to the topic that I have not considered before, and they tell me I do the same for them. But then I don't call this quality "charm". (Interestingly one of these people is a pastor in a mainstream Protestant denomination. Even on religious topics, she never takes offense and respects my PoV.) Now see - the few ENFJs I know border on the disingenuous. They seem to so want to have harmony and have everyone happily doing what they are meant to do, that they will say anything to people to give them that reassurance, even if there is no way they can deliver. As a result they are very pleasant people to be around (a form of charming, I suppose), but I wouldn't trust them farther than I can throw them. My last boss was like this. I think NTJs have a greater capacity for this than most other types, in that not only are we capable of expressing ourselves that way, we are less likely to self-censor. I had similar experiences with my own parents, on similarly practical issues, and learned to save that sort of bluntness for situations of real import. I am the same way, and it is here in fact that I have had my greatest problems with ENFPs. They seem to have no interest in or appreciation for this sort of planning. I have to catch them literally in the moment - then they are great fun. But to try to plan a visit or an activity together - it's lke pulling teeth, even if I gladly do all the work and just invite them along for the ride.

Just for the record I have a great deal of respect and appreciation for another person who does all the planning for an event, but maybe it's because I'm from a small island and so most of the Time if I come up with a plan I have to do all the execution which I find exhausting but it is a necessity in my case, so if someone was to come along and offer to assist with the planning I would swoon.

 

[Agent Washington]

Just for the record I have a great deal of respect and appreciation for another person who does all the planning for an event, but maybe it's because I'm from a small island and so most of the Time if I come up with a plan I have to do all the execution which I find exhausting but it is a necessity in my case, so if someone was to come along and offer to assist with the planning I would swoon.

...........I let my enfp ex do all the planning, since he's always looking at opportunities and having ideas I won't think of.

... I find Fe kind of hard to understand and deal with as well; on some level they do attend to a certain need, but on another level.. ... .... ...I'm like a wet blanket and I greatly distrust how Fe manifests by instinct. But it's undeniable that they've got this certain way of maintaining social atmosphere and attracting other people. Just... not.. . me.... too deeply...

 

[Virtual ghost]

I have found the ENFPs I know to be some of the few people I can "hit with what is really on my mind". Even if they disagree, and tell me so, they seem to take it in stride more than other types and be open to discussing it.


It is true that these ENFPs don't share some of my interests, but on topics of interest to both of us, such as literature, politics and religion/theology, I can have conversations with them of unusual depth and range. They show me sides to the topic that I have not considered before, and they tell me I do the same for them. But then I don't call this quality "charm".

(Interestingly one of these people is a pastor in a mainstream Protestant denomination. Even on religious topics, she never takes offense and respects my PoV.)


Now see - the few ENFJs I know border on the disingenuous. They seem to so want to have harmony and have everyone happily doing what they are meant to do, that they will say anything to people to give them that reassurance, even if there is no way they can deliver. As a result they are very pleasant people to be around (a form of charming, I suppose), but I wouldn't trust them farther than I can throw them. My last boss was like this.


I think NTJs have a greater capacity for this than most other types, in that not only are we capable of expressing ourselves that way, we are less likely to self-censor. I had similar experiences with my own parents, on similarly practical issues, and learned to save that sort of bluntness for situations of real import.


I am the same way, and it is here in fact that I have had my greatest problems with ENFPs. They seem to have no interest in or appreciation for this sort of planning. I have to catch them literally in the moment - then they are great fun. But to try to plan a visit or an activity together - it's lke pulling teeth, even if I gladly do all the work and just invite them along for the ride.

To really answer all of that I need to type the wall of text and I don't have the time or desire to do that. (especially since I would say nothing new). My problem was that through my life experiances I was constantly dealing with unhealthy ENFPs and unhealthy people in general (what is the consequence of deep and complex political problems). Therefore creating the direct connection between your's and mine experiences is bad logic. What is actually the main reason why I ask myself am I really INTJ or perhaps ENTJ that was systematically alieneted and therefore it developed emotional and physical self-suffciency. Since I grew up right in the middle of the revolution and therefore I created very hard armor while "charming people" went more to the self-destructive/random/hedonistic side as the result. Therefore now I would like to clean up the rubble and move on while others prefer running in circles since constant wars and dictatorships have messed up the culture and values. Plus since we never had real market economy people never developed organisational skills that well, since even in serious govenmetal and legal issues the time issues and deadlines aren't respected. Also when teacher says "Take out your notebooks and fill in your tests from them, I want to give plenty of good grades today" the typical ENFP will stop learning and hope that this will happen again. Plus since there is no market economy she probably wouldn't get a job by her competency, what means she would probably decide to improvise through her entire life (like my mother). Therefore I as an NTJ feel as if I am on the alien planet and I am/was frustrated due to the fact that here almost nothing works properly once you scratch the surface, while people tend to use "charm" to hide their own issues or change the subjet. The situation is repairing itself as generations change but all of that is still too slow for my taste. Therefore comparing your ENFPs and mine ENFPs can lead into very misleading argument. Since here the culture is boosting unhealthy ENFP traits and it is even rewarding them. (what makes ENFPs and similar types extra stubborn, since they think that they can improvise until the end of days)



When I attacked my parents the other day I did so because they are bankrupting themselves slowly and soon they will have to go into retirement that will be a few dollars a day (so it would be nice that they have larger savings and stop spending money on nonesense). However everyone first points to emotional perspective of my words and how horrible and blunt I am, while they are completely missing the point and ignore problems at hand. What would be ok if I didn't already said the same thing nicely 10 times and they always decide to smooth things over. Since they haven't evolved from dictatorhips where it was dangerous to show any kind of "rogue behavior" and strong claims, while it was normal to wait for the rescure. What is the main reason why we have mass emigration that is lasting for at least 100 years, since some core things here don't function properly. What is the problem that wouldn't solve itself and it certainly wouldn't by nice words that created this permanent stagnation.



ENFJs have their own issues but they are much less likely to constantly change plans and creates unexpected problems/twists ... and that is very important to me since I am fighting uphill battles. Therefore I said that ENFPs are charming but not really too desired company, in my book.



And this is where I end with this thread because this can be dissussed in detail through pages and pages ... and I have much better things to do.

 

[Abcdenfp]

To really answer all of that I need to type the wall of text and I don't have the time or desire to do that. (especially since I would say nothing new). My problem was that through my life experiances I was constantly dealing with unhealthy ENFPs and unhealthy people in general (what is the consequence of deep and complex political problems). Therefore creating the direct connection between your's and mine experiences is bad logic. What is actually the main reason why I ask myself am I really INTJ or perhaps ENTJ that was systematically alieneted and therefore it developed emotional and physical self-suffciency. Since I grew up right in the middle of the revolution and therefore I created very hard armor while "charming people" went more to the self-destructive/random/hedonistic side as the result. Therefore now I would like to clean up the rubble and move on while others prefer running in circles since constant wars and dictatorships have messed up the culture and values. Plus since we never had real market economy people never developed organisational skills that well, since even in serious govenmetal and legal issues the time issues and deadlines aren't respected. Also when teacher says "Take out your notebooks and fill in your tests from them, I want to give plenty of good grades today" the typical ENFP will stop learning and hope that this will happen again. Plus since there is no market economy she probably wouldn't get a job by her competency, what means she would probably decide to improvise through her entire life (like my mother). Therefore I as an NTJ feel as if I am on the alien planet and I am/was frustrated due to the fact that here almost nothing works properly once you scratch the surface, while people tend to use "charm" to hide their own issues or change the subjet. The situation is repairing itself as generations change but all of that is still too slow for my taste. Therefore comparing your ENFPs and mine ENFPs can lead into very misleading argument. Since here the culture is boosting unhealthy ENFP traits and it is even rewarding them. (what makes ENFPs and similar types extra stubborn, since they think that they can improvise until the end of days) When I attacked my parents the other day I did so because they are bankrupting themselves slowly and soon they will have to go into retirement that will be a few dollars a day (so it would be nice that they have larger savings and stop spending money on nonesense). However everyone first points to emotional perspective of my words and how horrible and blunt I am, while they are completely missing the point and ignore problems at hand. What would be ok if I didn't already said the same thing nicely 10 times and they always decide to smooth things over. Since they haven't evolved from dictatorhips where it was dangerous to show any kind of "rogue behavior" and strong claims, while it was normal to wait for the rescure. What is the main reason why we have mass emigration that is lasting for at least 100 years, since some core things here don't function properly. What is the problem that wouldn't solve itself and it certainly wouldn't by nice words that created this permanent stagnation. ENFJs have their own issues but they are much less likely to constantly change plans and creates unexpected problems/twists ... and that is very important to me since I am fighting uphill battles. Therefore I said that ENFPs are charming but not really too desired company, in my book. And this is where I end with this thread because this can be dissussed in detail through pages and pages ... and I have much better things to do.

..drops mic..Nuff said ..

 

[Coriolis]

To really answer all of that I need to type the wall of text and I don't have the time or desire to do that. (especially since I would say nothing new). My problem was that through my life experiances I was constantly dealing with unhealthy ENFPs and unhealthy people in general (what is the consequence of deep and complex political problems). Therefore creating the direct connection between your's and mine experiences is bad logic. What is actually the main reason why I ask myself am I really INTJ or perhaps ENTJ that was systematically alieneted and therefore it developed emotional and physical self-suffciency. Since I grew up right in the middle of the revolution and therefore I created very hard armor while "charming people" went more to the self-destructive/random/hedonistic side as the result. Therefore now I would like to clean up the rubble and move on while others prefer running in circles since constant wars and dictatorships have messed up the culture and values.

MBTI is meant to describe healthy types, so not surprising you are having different experiences that I did. From what you have said about your environment, it is encouraging the worst and impeding the best in both ENFPs and INTJs - likely in everyone. It can be hard to get out from under that.

 

[Virtual ghost]

..drops mic..Nuff said ..

Don't worry, you haven't seen anything yet.
Since you are new I think I know just the right post of mine for you.

I am suspecting that my living environment is not normal or sane and therefore I would like that people that live around the world tell me if my suspicions are correct. I mean I live in this for entire life so for me it is hard to be fully objective on the issue. I have already said something about this in other threads and often as I go into debates with people on this forum I constantly end up in situations where I have to explain my background, that may not be reasonable. Actually one of the reasons why I hang out here is the need to get away from my environment.


Therefore for the start I will make a test that will get us started and which will explain what is bothering me. Some questions will probably seem strange but I suggest that you take them all at face value. I think that this can also help people understand where they stand in the issues about which they don't get asked every day. I simply want to know is this abnormal to outsiders, so that I can close this chapter of my life and focus on other things. Is this insane ?



1. How would you feel that something you need every day is taxed over 100% ?

2. You have a exam in school and you have studied hard for that one. However when you come to the exam teacher says "I don't feel like doing this today or scoring this. Therfore all of you can take out your notebooks and rewrite the data into the tests. I would love to give plenty of good grades today". How would you feel in this situation ?

3. Is it normal to have over 40 tax reforms in just 3.5 years ?

4. Is it possible that someone who even wasn't a candidate on elections, isn't a politician, and public has never heard of him becomes the new president or prime minister as a winner of elections ?

5. How would you feel if following people become a head of state in your country:
1. Journalist
2. Army General
3. Person sentenced for coup and antisocial "boomy" behaviour
4. The guy who was the president in the country that later lunched full scale invansion on your country.
5. Theater manager
Feel free to describe each option individually.

6. When you plan to build a house or some similar object it is reasonable to have all the papers for this? What happens to people who don't have any of them but they build house anyway ?

7. Is it possible in your country to have alcohol in you while driving and still not brake any laws ?

8. Were you ever punished for making your room or house more clean/orderly when you were a kid ? Why ?

9. Did you ever got an A/maximum grade for not writting your homework ?

10. Is it reasonable to expect from people not to cross streets on red light ?

11. How about crossing the 3 or 4 line road if there isn't any official crossing ?

12. Did any teacher ever throw a chair at you and called you "Useless cattle" or something equally inappropriate ?

13. On school trips did the teacher ever took you through active train tunnel ?

14. How about a mine field ?

15. Did it ever happened that you started to go to collage but 6 months after it turned out that they took you by mistake ? Therfore they kicked you out in the end because this is where you don't belong.

16. How would you feel that you can't sue people that owe you money ? I mean you can try but the process will last between 3 and 10 years and that will probably cost more than you want back.

17. Did the future nun ever requested to have phone sex with you ? Did you do it ?

18. One day at school girl comes into the class and requests that teacher gives her the key of some room. However he say "Ok, but come here". She comes to the desk and then he grabs her around the shoulders, point the other hand into the class and says "You want keys? Ok, but first you have to tell me one thing. This class is full of boys, tell me which one do you like them most ?" (girl did blush like a tomato) Sound familiar ?

19. Teacher: I know that we should hang out in here for a few more hours. However I know that it is Valentine's day and that you have all soaped up you girlfriends yesterday. Therefore it would be stupid that someone else is doing your job today and because of that I consider this class over for today. Have you experienced something similar ?

20. Is it possible that some votes on elections are worth multiple times as some other votes ?

21. How would you feel if at one point there is at one no private property in your entire country ? All land, resources, companies, education, healthcare, houses and flats are owned 100% by government ?

22. Is it normal that opening of company lasts for 6 months or perhaps even a few years ?

23. Should possession of a Christmas tree be criminal offence ?

24. Did your president or prime minister ever betrayed your country by giving most of the archive to foreign spys ? (I mean is there a public knowledge of this ?)

25. Was police ever chasing very high ranking political figure in his car around the country's highways ? Was the child of this person in the car ?

26. Did you ever live in a city where city major has about 170 political/legal affairs after him? But people aren't bothered with this all that much and even vote for him on every elections.

27. Did you ever sleep in a bath tub in you basement becuase you where hidding from carpet bombing ?

28. Did computers rise you as one of their own ?

29. Is third of your house covered with highy cancerogenic particles ?

30. If someone is late for work every other day for half an hour or more and this is going on for decades do you think this is completely normal ?

31. Did you ever took a large loan withouth any intention of returning it ? Do you know anyone with that attitute or someone who actually did that ?

32. Do people at your work drink alcohol while they are at work ? Do they ever get really drunk ?

33. Did someone build a house all over your property without asking any permission ?

34. Did you ever came to a big club at Saturday night but there was no one there except waiters and a DJ ? Did you take the whole dance floor for yourself ?

35. Did you ever meet a scientist who keeps highly dangerous materials in his office ? So much of them that the whole building feels really bad about this ?

36. If it were illegal to defend your country towards international law would you still do it ?

37. Is it ok for a person that is in charge of military to say that he likes blow jobs right into camera ? (even if no one asked for such information)

38. When someone owes a billion in taxes, threatens the press with violence on daily basis, beats up various officials, gives nazi salutes and walks naked in public ... is there any chance that you can see such person as entertaining ?

39. It is possible that collage doesn't recognize/accept grades that were made by the staff of that same college ?

40. Is it possible in your country that you take a housing loan in a bank and that after years of paying your debts the debt is significantly larger than it was at the start ?

41. If a bank advertises loans with interest rate of 8.2 percent do you think this is tempting offer ?

42. Have you ever been on an island where no one lives ?

43. If a country can feed 3 times its currect population but none the less it imports half of its food is it reasonable to ask questions why this is the case ?

44. Can a trial in your country be restarted 3 or 4 times ? (as much it takes to convict a person)

45. Is it normal that 25 year old constantly recieves basic healthcare in home for old and disabled people ?

46. Have you even been in a place where unemployment is around 50%.

47. You order a service from a phone company. However they say that they can't provide that at the moment and that they will get back to you when this will be technically possible. Few months later a guy shows up at your door to scan the situation, few months after that the whole team shows up and they start to work but it turns out that they forgot their tools and therefore they stop. Few weeks after that another team comes and does the job for the most part but they are not designed to finnish the process. Few weeks after that the third team comes but just too check if the second team did their job, everthing is ok. Few weeks after that the lone guy shows at the door and finishes the job, everything works. After few months system brakes and you give phone company a call and they say "You have what !? I am sorry sir but that is just not possible, there are still no technical abilities that we will be able to provide you such services. What you are saying is just not possible. Honestly, I don't know what you where paying for the last couple of months." Do you have such experiences ?

48. Does police ever interrogates wrong people becuase someone in administation switched names by mistake ?

49. Is it normal that head of state just leaves politics because of numerous scandals but in a way that this doesn't provoke new elections ? Instead vice president just continues the show as nothing happened.

50. Did security agencies ever set up a score in any major sport event in your country ? (at least from what is known to public)

Etc. Etc.

MBTI is meant to describe healthy types, so not surprising you are having different experiences that I did. From what you have said about your environment, it is encouraging the worst and impeding the best in both ENFPs and INTJs - likely in everyone. It can be hard to get out from under that.

Yes, however things aren't bad as they used to be and we actually managed to clean up fair amount of the mess at this point, but this is taking too long in my opinion. The problem with Croatia is that when you have "400 years of war with one of the largest empires ever and after that you have the last 100 years in which we had 3 major wars on our soil and changed 6 political systems and at least 7 currencies as well as multiple changes of official language and borders" the culture and common sense disolve. Since you have permanent "unnatural sitaution" and therefore right and wrong become subjective since you have constant reseting of the system. Therefore even the rules of typology get distorted since logic of typology is US based and it doesn't calculate in something as radical as this. Therefore I am not fully sure am I really INTJ or ENTJ that was born in Communism and grew up in a war zone and therefore I lacks the CEO/capitalist vibe, especially since I had to cut my loses and make the most I can with what I have and I ignored the self-destructive people around me, which were the consequence of this political mess.



What is the reason why I don't want to talk about this too much. Since it may seem that I am bragging or that I am one of the crazy people myself, however no matter what I say I am always only a sentance or two away from having to explain the crazy stuff that defined my early life. Because that is what made my "foundations", since the level of crazy was overwhelming. I mean look at what I just did "I hijacked the thread even if that really wasn't my desire, what happned because I spilled something completely out of the box into it".

 

[Alassea]

Lmao, this thread's a mess.