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Criticism, Judgment and Projection

highlander

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I have observed so many times in life that when one person criticizes another person that in fact the person doing the criticizing appears to quite strongly demonstrate the behavior they are raising. "That person is so bossy" said the bossy person. "They are so indecisive" says the indecisive person. "XXXX is very reactive" says the reactive person. "They always jumps to conclusions" says the person who jumps to conclusions.

Has anybody noticed this? It is very interesting behavior. I wonder if we can use these kinds of statements to more quickly identify a person's flaws that they don't want to admit - especially when stated in strong/absolute form, "so" "always" "never" etc. Thoughts?

Here is an article I found on it.

https://chrismaser.wordpress.com/2010/05/13/criticism-in-the-form-of-projection/
 

BadOctopus

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Yyyyes... In many cases, I think people do criticize others for displaying the same qualities that they dislike in themselves.

However, I have also noticed that people tend to over-use the phrase "You're projecting" as a kind of trump card, a way to spin an argument and avoid the real issue. It's a non-answer that adds nothing to the discussion, and it just seems kind of lazy to me.
 

Eilonwy

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I think it depends. Sometimes criticism is about the person doing the criticizing (projection), and sometimes it's actually commenting on the effect another person's behavior has on the person doing the criticizing.

I think criticism always (ha! does this mean that I am saying this about my own flaws?) has a subjective component to it since it is based on perception of the dynamics between two or more people. One would have to determine what percentage of that subjective component is about the person criticizing and what percentage is about actual effect of the other person's behavior.
 

Xann

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This is a very simple and universal psychological truth which I have seen repeated time and time again. Usually the projection occurs when the person is already subtly aware at least subconsciously or has been criticized themselves for whichever trait they are attempting to pin on the other party, not when they simply have no inkling of it at all. Usually it is futile to bring up the issue of projection in debates (especially criticizing the opposing party of it) due to the fact that while in debate, emotional shields are up and most of the ammunition being thrown are only perceived facts and figures; appeals to emotion are seen as an invalid form of arguing. Not only this but actively admitting fault and error in what is seen as an attack on their character simply will not happen in such a combative environment, so it is counter-productive for this reason as well. However once shields are down and the "projector" is able to reflect on the argument more accurately, depending on their level of self-awareness and respective health they may be able to actually accept whichever trait in themselves which they were so quick to accuse the other party of erroneously or not and the projection will not happen again. This may take quite a few arguments or a wide variety of people in different circumstances pointing out the fact that they are projecting before the projector is capable of recognizing it in themselves, and may never happen, depending on just how subconscious the character flaw is and how important it is to their ego framework to avoid admitting to it.

If you want to see some great examples of notoriously unhealthy projectors in action, look no further than Vent. :D
 
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Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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That article was extremely interesting to me. I think projection exists, but as @BadOctopus pointed out, you can't really call people on it. They'll always deny it.

There is another kind of projection, however, called hero worship, which represents the positive part of ourselves that we choose to disown. Hero worship means that people project onto a another person the positive qualities (the glow) they themselves posses but are afraid to make manifest in their own lives.

Such projections place an incredible burden of unknown responsibility on a leader because they not only is seen as larger than life but also is expected to be perfect by those who project onto others their own positive qualities for safekeeping. Consider, for example, the often-impossible expectations of human perfection that we project onto clergy, teachers, elected officials, and movie stars. The illusions we create are dangerous people because we see in them no flaws.

But what happens when one of our flawless illusions turn out to be an imperfect human after all? Are we filled with mercy, compassion, and understanding? No! They are dashed to the ground, like a sculptor might in anger cast down a flawed statue, because a weakness has been found in them, which calls forth the fickle-heartedness of those who projected their positive qualities onto others rather than take personal responsibility for their own development.

I see this stuff happen all the time. One place it runs rampant is various fan communities. Consider what it was like after the Dark Knight came out. Chrstopher Nolan was basically a god. Then The Dark Knight Rises came out, which people didn't like as much. It's not really a bad film, but because it didn't live up to the reputation of the movie that preceded it, it became popular to diss Nolan and pretty much everything Nolan did. This even applied to The Dark Knight which was previously considered to be one of the best summer movies in a long time.

The same thing happens to politicians.
 

Xann

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I also want to add that for some people (types?) there simply is no framework for legitimizing the concept of psychological projection logically, so either accusing them of it or bringing it up in a discussion is only going to bring anger and frustration, as if you were suddenly speaking a different language or were making a completely fallacious argument out of the blue even when their own character deficit is actively ruining the debate or causing it to run down an extremely limited (and also fallacious...strawman arguments are common here but never admitted to) trajectory. While I have no empirical evidence except my own personal experiences for this claim, I would say some people simply lack a level of accurate theory of mind and empathy to be able to conceptualize the idea of psychological projection and actively spot it in themselves and others. In my experience, the person accusing the other party of projection tends to be correct 90% of the time but it is a dead-end communication wise which is why it is to be avoided.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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While I have no empirical evidence except my own personal experiences for this claim, I would say some people simply lack a level of accurate theory of mind and empathy to be able to conceptualize the idea of psychological projection and actively spot it in themselves and others. In my experience, the person accusing the other party of projection tends to be correct 90% of the time but it is a dead-end communication wise which is why it is to be avoided.

Could you run by an example of what you are talking about? Is there a specific situation you have a mind?

Here's an example I noticed. I used to hate people who acted on their sexual drive more than I did, and I acted as though they were doing something immoral. Then I realized I had those same drives, and that judging others for actually acting on them, just because I chose something different, was stupid. I need to take responsibility for my own decisions and actions, ultimately, even if they happen to be stupid.
 

Frosty

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Yyyyes... In many cases, I think people do criticize others for displaying the same qualities that they dislike in themselves.

However, I have also noticed that people tend to over-use the phrase "You're projecting" as a kind of trump card, a way to spin an argument and avoid the real issue. It's a non-answer that adds nothing to the discussion, and it just seems kind of lazy to me.

Yeah that kind of annoys me, oftentimes seems like a cheap way to suck the merit out of any statement. Pushed out like a statement of fact and at that point there pretty much is no reason to continue to attemp any further discussion. It shuts down instead of opening up, and I believe users know that. Self protective at the expense of placing that blow upon someone else.
 

Lark

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I encounter this a lot, most recently at work, some of the least competent people I work with will consistently label others as defensive and unreflective when it comes to any matter of competence being discussed at all, although its difficult to counter or challenge the allegation of being defensive and unreflective because anything you say can be used as further evidence of your defensive and unreflective nature. Its pretty circular. Its been roundly critiqued as on aspect of psychoanalytical theory which takes no account of power relations and roles in framing, reframing and managing narratives.

On the topic of projecting, I pointed that out for a while on this very forum but got tired eventually of people, in a pretty childish manner its got to be said, responding with "whose projecting? your projecting" if you made any suggestion that this was what was going on, then again the same people I think were just trying to frustrate the fuck out of me for their own shits and giggles, as a troll might. It can be quite a circular thing too maybe.

Although I would say that I do like the theory of projecting and the shadow as developed by Jung or Jungian theory, I do think that people are apt to have what they do not like about themselves on their mind, they could be extra sensitive to it in others and notice it more readily in them than themselves.

What interests me is whether or not the projecting is done with any degree of awareness, if you take the example of "defensiveness", a highly defensive individual may have had that pointed out to them more than once and come to the conclusion that the quickest way to resolve conflicts is to label someone else defensive before they can label them, that would be a conscious, aware strategy, I've known people like that, although I've equally known people with lots of flaws who are not aware of them or who would deny them, very quickly, and who wouldnt own any mistake or action of theirs ever, and they are very, very highly critical of others, extremely so, if they do that as a conscious strategy to redirect attention from the failings and flaws they possess and know they do I'd be very, very surprised.

I'm undecided which of these two examples are the most insidious, most days I think the later, I've seen someone who fits that description reduce subordinates or colleagues to tears, I mean real distress, I dont mean frustration either but feeling angry and threatened by their behaviour but the same individual does not comprehend what they are doing, at least not right away, and if and when they do comprehend they may apologise but sure as night follows day they will repeat the same sort of thing in a few days or weeks or months.

There are people I've met who arent great at what they are expected to do, although the keep a low profile, dont annoy anyone and are given a pass by a lot of people, I've made my peace with that as time has gone on, its the world we live in and its far from perfect and wont ever be perfect, but the other type, that really bothers me, the type who is flawed and does everyone elses head in about performance. The funny thing about all this is being aware of and interested in psychoanalysis and these ideas is that when I became aware of all this I wondered myself if I was projecting myself and annoyed by all this because it was something about myself reflected in it but I've heard a lot of other people reach very similar conclusions about it which made me think its really is them.
 

Lark

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iirc the insults that a person uses are a reflection of the traits they're afraid of having.

I'm not sure, you can over do that kind of analysis.

Sometimes its just hatred, not everyone who racially slurs a black man is secretly frightened they are black or secrets wishes they were black, if that makes sense.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I'm curious about the role projection plays with the situation in Northern Ireland.

northern-ireland-ira-graffiti.jpg


Israel is another interesting example.
 

Hawthorne

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Maybe they're just good at recognizing similar traits in others.

I disagree with the article's claim that negative criticism is inherently projecting. Noting an extreme trait in someone else doesn't necessitate denying it in oneself. Besides, it's usually situation dependent.

Also seems kinda chicken and eggy though I can't put my finger on why.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I disagree with the article's claim that negative criticism is inherently projecting. Noting an extreme trait in someone else doesn't necessitate denying it in oneself. Besides, it's usually situation dependent.

I would agree with this conclusion. The problem comes when someone is unaware of the negative traits they possess, and so they go about projecting those negative traits on to others, who may or may not have them. The important thing is to "know thyself." Ultimately, it requires intrapersonal awareness, which is a trait that many people sadly lack.
 

Lark

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Maybe they're just good at recognizing similar traits in others.

I disagree with the article's claim that negative criticism is inherently projecting. Noting an extreme trait in someone else doesn't necessitate denying it in oneself. Besides, it's usually situation dependent.

Also seems kinda chicken and eggy though I can't put my finger on why.

What do you think of ideas such as "they were making the snowballs, I was throwing them" as a means of admiting to being someone else's useful idiot or begging forgiveness or excusing your own behaviour by shifting blame?

I hope by mentioning that I'm not taking the thread off topic.

I also have noticed something that I have done myself in the past which I'm working hard to try and eliminate, someone not too long ago approached me and talked about a grievance they had with someone else, now I know that the other individual this person was complaining about does behave in the manner they were complaining about and told them how I thought I would respond to that behaviour. The individual in question can be selfish and subversive, I personally think that they are someone to be wary of and others believe so too.

However, when I'd suggested to this person the strategy to deal with this individual they quickly adopted it in their dealings with everyone, including myself, when I really would consider the individual they were complaining about to be the exception rather than the rule as it turned out the person I advised was prepared to believe.

The poem IF talks about this and its one of my favourite poems but I find the advice in it difficult to implement all the time or recall when I should.

I've noted that there are people who are quite resentful towards others, maybe without knowing it, perhaps they generalise from a single bad experience (and that's a survival trait, people do that, unfortunately bad experience stacks up more in the mind than good experience), and they will turn the cannon on their own side as easily as their opposition. Worst kind of leader there is.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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What do you think of ideas such as "they were making the snowballs, I was throwing them" as a means of admiting to being someone else's useful idiot or begging forgiveness or excusing your own behaviour by shifting blame?

Generally speaking, I've found that it doesn't matter what I say about certain subjects. People will see what they want to see.
 

Lark

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The thing about projection is that I believe its one of a bunch of errors in judgement people can make, I once heard it summed up along with others under the umbrella of protagonist errors, ie we see all things from the stand point of the protagonist, as its the only way you can from the first person perspective we all possess, when we may be a bit part in another person's tale instead of the hero in our own tale if we could only change perspective.

The error in judgement is not only about attributing bad or negative things though, as Highlander's article I think mentions, you could mistakenly attribute good things to others, or make mistakes in judging attributes of your self to be bad or good in a given context.

Consider:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
 

BadOctopus

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Generally speaking, I've found that it doesn't matter what I say about certain subjects. People will see what they want to see.
Word.

Also, that type of justification reeks of the whole "He started it" mentality. Shifting the blame to others does not make it okay to respond in kind.
 

Eilonwy

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Of course, everyone is above projecting, right? It's always the other guy who's projecting. We're all self-aware and rational and our criticisms are well-thought out. I can say that I experience myself as very rational and reasonable. :smile: *pats self on back*

/projecting
 
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