[Type 7] Can a 7w8 whom has strong self pres be fairly cautious and not take as many risks?

[The Great One]

Figure out why I'm off course and get back on it again. For me, things going wrong usually means that whatever I'm doing, my heart isn't really in it. Or that I was following what I believed in but in the wrong setting. For the things I really want, I have almost limitless will and energy to pursue it.

Oh I see.
[MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION]

Tis' better to give pain than receive it - Muhahaa.
Honestly, avoiding physical pain is not something I've ever pondered on, but maybe not so much in ways that you might be imagining.
If you don't mind me asking, what exactly are you talking about?

What I was referring to in this comment is the fact that you are self-preservation last. All the 7w8's that I have heard from so far are self-pres first, or have strong self pres. So it would make sense that physical pain doesn't bother you as much.

When life throws you a lemon, make lemonade.
When you say "things don't always go right" - I take that to mean "things don't always go as you expected them to."
Is that what you were alluding to?
If so, that is correct, there are no guarantees - period.
What is within one's locus of control is deciding how to react to such circumstances as they arise.
If you are adaptable, and you keep your cool, then it is very possible to turn what first appeared to be a less than desirable situation into one of opportunity.
Ultimately this becomes a matter of deciding if the potential benefit in doing so is worth the time & effort to make it so.
If it is, great, then modify your engagement and proceed accordingly.
If it is not, then it's simply a matter of deciding how to de-escalate that particular objective and throttle up in pursuit of others.
In general, this is as basic a summary as I can offer. I hope it makes sense.

So basically you just turn negatives into positives, I see. Well I guess that's a good way to approach it. I will say that I don't tend to do this. I tend to have more of a mindset that everything will go to hell, and I find myself setting up back up plans and prepping for disasters to so to say. This is probably due to my 6w7 fix. Both strategies work though.

No, that's simply a preference, not a requirement.

Interesting. What other ways do you tend to learn well?

Perhaps I'm taking you too literally, but -
Really?
All the time?
Probably not.
You might see possibilities of how things could result into being, but you have no guarantees that anything will go according to your predictions - or desires...

No, I can't always see THE EXACT way that something will go down, but I can at least narrow it down to 3 or 4 possibilities and be prepared for any of those possibilities to happen.

Again, we're just as capable of that as anyone else - it's just not a default preference of ours to learn vicariously in lieu of direct life experience.
To whittle that down a bit in greater detail, we'll be more pre-disposed to learning vicariously if we are somehow tangentially involved, or at minimum simply aware of the gist of a situation and the actors involved.
We don't put a lot of time and effort into things that we don't relate to, or have a specific interest in - whether that interest is of recent generation or a long-term study...

So Se doms like things to happen fast then?

 

[small.wonder]

Sorry, sidebar:

Because change is the only constant, and to embrace it is be at peace with what most consider to be disarray, and to do so results in arriving at a natural state of advantage.
Cool heads prevail.

Wow, yes! Ehem, I was just lurking in attempt to understand a bit more about a 7w8 I know and found two things:
1) The above statement resonates with me so much, though I'm not sure which aspect of my typing to attribute that to...there are several possibilities.
2) Halla, you're the first 7 I've seen here who actually communicates like and reminds me of the 7w8 I know! Which is pretty exciting because I was beginning to wonder if he was mistyped. I'm pretty sure it's the instinctual difference, I know he is Sx-first at least. Though I suppose it could be MBTI too (I have no idea what he is there). Anyway, thanks for the breakthrough!

Carry on.

 

[valaki]

Interesting thread. I'm told I'm 8w7 > 7w8 but I'm still trying to understand type 7... This 7w8 vs 8w7 thing is still a conundrum to me atm. Anyway I think I'm sx/sp or even sp/sx, I'm almost sure that the social instinct is last for me and so this thread does make a LOT of sense for me. I'm pretty much like with calculating/taking risks as [MENTION=16476]badger055[/MENTION] and [MENTION=5645]Qrious[/MENTION] and [MENTION=9883]Redbone[/MENTION] describe. Decide fast without much thinking, feel/act confident, etc. I actually always thought of myself as someone who will feel the limits instinctively very well though this doesn't mean that these limits are restricting that much at all and of course certain physical limits can be pushed much further back with good focus or with practice etc. At the same time I hate it when I don't take a risk because I just feel like I would like taking it "just because" and I don't do it because of the instinct I have. I'm missing out on something then and it can make me feel overly cautious but oh well. Still, some people think I'm taking a lot of crazy risks. It's all subjective hey. I've been called brave and/or reckless when I really didn't feel there was much to what I was doing, I didn't feel any risk at all. But yes, if I take a risk - a risk here is defined as something where I do feel there might be some bit of risk - it's usually for a reason, though sometimes the reason is just to enjoy the action, thrill, all that. Then sometimes the reason is not for fun but to achieve a goal, etc. I would like to note here that I hate focusing on the adrenaline feeling directly. I much prefer to focus on the action itself, the adrenaline thing is definitely just in the background. I tried to analyse why that is, I think it's just that the feeling isn't great, I wouldn't call it straightforward anxiety but it definitely would be distracting to focus on it.


OK now I will try to compare myself with the 7w8's, see if I am like them or a bit different... In the latter case you've probably heard a 8w7's take on the risk issue but I hope it was still interesting to someone.

Yea I don't know chaos is just exciting to me. Things are alive and in motion everything is interesting. It's just my area. The opposite of that would be working in a 9-5 cubicle which would make me want to kill myself.

Interesting, that, how you mention the word "alive". Is the meaning of that word central to 7w8's? To me it is, I think what makes me feel most alive is if I'm fighting for a goal or certain physical activities, but again best if that's with a goal in mind, tunnel vision, whatnot. Chaos is interesting as well, I guess it can also make me feel alive, as long as it means that there is some action I need to take. Sort out things or something. I also can enjoy mental stimulation but it's probably only third or fourth on the list of the things making me feel really alive. It's just different from certain somewhat more physical things, it feels less intense or something. It feels like it's only in the head or whatever. Though in general I don't pay much attention internally to bodily feelings either. It's much like with the adrenaline example above about not focusing on the internal feeling of adrenaline rush itself.

I don't really buy the sub wings thing. Tritype, mbti and instincts can explain any differences. I saw this interesting thing on the types http://similarminds.com/desc.html. They put 7w8 between a head type and an instinct type. The main difference between 7w8 and 8w7 is that 7w8 is fun first then control/intimidation. 8w7 is control/intimidation first then fun.

Thanks for that link, that's new to me that a type&wing would be right in the middle between head and instinct type. But it makes sense, I kind of feel that way sometimes. Though maybe only because I don't focus on body internally. I don't really live that much in my head otherwise, just sometimes Best if I can focus on the action itself and the intensity of that. I guess that's a pretty extraverted attitude?

I can't however tell if fun > control/intimidation or the other way around, for me. How about you, how did you decide that fun was first for you?

No they can't. For instance, there is a big difference between the 6w7(7w8) and the 6w7(sw5w6). The 6w7(sw7w8) can very easily look like a 7 because they have a strong 7 wing. They also are often much more adventurous and playful than the other variety of 7. The 6w7(sw5w6) is much more openly nervous than the 6w7(sw7w8). They tend to be much less adventurous as well. The 6w7(sw5w6) is basically the nervous kid that you see on comedy shows that gets pushed around is kind of a punk ass.

That's just one example of how subwings can help to more clearly define type. I think that subwings are a vital part of enneagram theory, and I would not neglect them if I were you.

Something new again about this enneagram theory Then my question will be: difference between 7w8(sw8w9) and 8w7(sw7w6). Or, is there a thing such as 8w7(sw7w8) or 7w8(sw8w7) as well? (I think not...?)

Yes, this sounds like the answers that I have heard from the other 7w8's. However, it seems like for a Sx/so 7w8 such as yourself, you wouldn't worry as much about avoiding physical pain?

So focus on physical pain would be a Sp thing? My focus extends about as far as wishing I didn't feel physical pain. Though often I don't focus on it at all, but sometimes I do get to feel it and then that's when I wish for not feeling it at all... Life just would be a bit easier.

I had a short period in life where I tried to meet pain head on, to just focus on it, endure it and get rid of it that way. My original goal of entirely getting rid of pain was perhaps too unrealistic but I figured out that quickly... Anyway, I found that this wasn't a good approach with certain kinds of pain, actually a terrible approach - for those what works well is simply not focusing on it - but it worked well for other kinds of pain. (Interesting topic, but not going to go too off topic here.)

But what about when things DON'T go right? I mean, they can't ALWAYS go right. What do you do then?

Is that a typical 7 thing to always see things as going right? I guess I look optimistic outwardly but I don't actually expect things to go right without me trying to do something to that effect. I'm really not a pessimist though or how would I go on with life if I explicitly thought nothing would ever work out? Guess being a realist is the best option. But I may not be 100% realist as prefer not to think of how things will turn out so bad, I'll instead go and try to do something about it so that it will turn out favourably for me. If I can't do anything, that's really frustrating and stressful and I have to just *do* something, can't get rid of the drive and can't give up anyway or I would be defeated and losing what I wanted and would feel too "passive" as well.

Well this is interesting. I've always known that Se doms must learn from experience. Being an intuition dom, I can literally see things as they would happen in real life, but in my head. It is because of this, that I really don't have to experience that many things to really see how they would go. I didn't know that Se doms could learn from other's experience though. I thought that they really had to learn from experiencing things strictly for themselves? I guess not?

Oh MBTI... I actually heard it's Ti that's associated with learning from experience. I can relate very much. I might watch what someone else's doing and I will forget it all instantly. If I do it myself, then somehow it gets put together instinctively or something. I can't tell you for sure if this is just Ti or Se as well but I think Ti is definitely involved because this process I'm talking about also builds a system. I don't know if Se is supposed to?

I can imagine things in my head but that's just not going to be reality. But I think [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION] in this thread already explained that to you, I'm not going to repeat his post.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

I often times have difficulty telling the difference between a 7w8 whom has strong self pres, and a 7w6(sw8w7). So are all 7w8's huge risk takers despite variants? Say for instance if you have a 7w8 sx/sp with strong self pres, could this make that 7w8 much more cautious and not as much of a risk taker? I mean clearly that person most likely would not have that much anxiety, but it seems like that person may mistype as a 7w6 because they are actually a cautious 7w8 (which seems to be very hard to find). So can 7w8's be cautious?

Well, I'm not an expert on the Enneagram. But I am an expert on my 7w8 so/sp/sx* self. So let's see if I can give a thoughtful response here:

The short answer to your question is that I'm cautious when required. Or perhaps it's more accurate to say that I am not afraid to take risks when those risks are needed to achieve a goal I've set for myself. The risks I take are never just for the hell of it. Said in another way, I don't like engaging in risks for risks' sake. And those who do - daredevils, if you will - seem immature and foolish to me.

So I would say that the sp thing makes me more particular in how I choose to take my risks, which isn't quite the same thing as being cautious. Cautious implies an avoidance of risk. I will take risks... sometimes very big risks. But I always do so when I'm working toward a goal.

I do go through an evaluation process on whether or not to take a risk. For example, I'll ask myself things like: How will this risk help me get what I want? What are the consequences to me of this risk failing? What are the odds of me being successful? Then, once I make up my mind to take the risk, there is no fear. I just do it, usually with a song in my heart.

If I do wind up failing, usually there is little regret. I just think back to my evaluation process when I decided to take the risk in the first place. I remind myself that I knew I might fail. I then just shrug my shoulders and move forward.

Does this ring true to you other 7w8s?




*I feel like I was sp/so/sx until about 6 or 7 years ago. Now the so thing is very important to me.

 

[badger055]

Interesting, that, how you mention the word "alive". Is the meaning of that word central to 7w8's? To me it is, I think what makes me feel most alive is if I'm fighting for a goal or certain physical activities, but again best if that's with a goal in mind, tunnel vision, whatnot. Chaos is interesting as well, I guess it can also make me feel alive, as long as it means that there is some action I need to take. Sort out things or something. I also can enjoy mental stimulation but it's probably only third or fourth on the list of the things making me feel really alive. It's just different from certain somewhat more physical things, it feels less intense or something. It feels like it's only in the head or whatever. Though in general I don't pay much attention internally to bodily feelings either. It's much like with the adrenaline example above about not focusing on the internal feeling of adrenaline rush itself.




Thanks for that link, that's new to me that a type&wing would be right in the middle between head and instinct type. But it makes sense, I kind of feel that way sometimes. Though maybe only because I don't focus on body internally. I don't really live that much in my head otherwise, just sometimes Best if I can focus on the action itself and the intensity of that. I guess that's a pretty extraverted attitude?

I can't however tell if fun > control/intimidation or the other way around, for me. How about you, how did you decide that fun was first for you?

Feeling alive yea maybe or that might be more of an sx thing. I think it's more about being constantly entertained and looking forward to something in the future all the time.

When I play games it's about having fun but then I noticed I always drift towards wanting to be a wrecking force in the game and dominate people. For example I played this mmorpg once and I stripped my character naked so all he had was a spear. I would run around naked and keep the lower level players from leveling by killing them with my spear over and over again. I was known as the naked spear guy. So it's never about being pure evil and dominating people there needs to be humour to it.

 

[valaki]

Feeling alive yea maybe or that might be more of an sx thing. I think it's more about being constantly entertained and looking forward to something in the future all the time.

When I play games it's about having fun but then I noticed I always drift towards wanting to be a wrecking force in the game and dominate people. For example I played this mmorpg once and I stripped my character naked so all he had was a spear. I would run around naked and keep the lower level players from leveling by killing them with my spear over and over again. I was known as the naked spear guy. So it's never about being pure evil and dominating people there needs to be humour to it.

Thanks, that helps. I'm not this crazy about humour , I do these things not for the goal of having fun. Though having fun as well is possible, just not a requirement.

When you said you need to be looking forward to something in the future all the time, do you have a conscious focus on the future? As ISTP, how does that work together with living in the present?

 

[badger055]

Thanks, that helps. I'm not this crazy about humour , I do these things not for the goal of having fun. Though having fun as well is possible, just not a requirement.

When you said you need to be looking forward to something in the future all the time, do you have a conscious focus on the future? As ISTP, how does that work together with living in the present?

Yea I'm always obsessing about the future and planning things out (takes me a long time sometimes). It's sort of like it gives me a reason to live because I can look forward to this one thing. I would say they conflict with each other flip flopping from one to the other. I can waste a lot of time with entertaining myself in the present but then I start to feel really guilty that I'm not progressing. Once I accomplish one goal then I earned the right to enjoy whatever it is for awhile in the present.

 

[valaki]

Yea I'm always obsessing about the future and planning things out (takes me a long time sometimes). It's sort of like it gives me a reason to live because I can look forward to this one thing. I would say they conflict with each other flip flopping from one to the other. I can waste a lot of time with entertaining myself in the present but then I start to feel really guilty that I'm not progressing. Once I accomplish one goal then I earned the right to enjoy whatever it is for awhile in the present.

Oh that's interesting. I do also need a reason to live. I'm not sure if it's because it lets me look forward to it, it's more like, I just feel good spending my time working on the whatever goal . I would say when I'm doing that, I'm still in the present except when checking progress for one or two quick seconds. But I also live a lot in the present "wasting time". If I haven't "done" (accomplished) anything, unlike you, I don't feel too guilty (or I don't recognise it as the feeling of guilt), instead I kind of feel empty and feel there is no real point to life. And I don't make my enjoyment dependent on how many plans or goals I achieved, too bad really, because maybe that way I would do more "to-do's" in time that I otherwise feel like procrastinating and end up doing last minute.

Hm, and yeah, I also do like to plan out some things, the things that actually need planning. It even gives a good feeling for a short time. But otherwise I'm not obsessed about future because it's just not concrete enough to me. Plans on their own don't make me feel good for long either. If I know I'm moving towards a goal by actually doing, that feels better but I guess that's just normal ;p

I do know someone who is like you with planning and feeling guilty, though. She identifies as a 5, so I don't know if this is so dependent on enneagram or it was mistyping for her. When I asked "where" she lives time wise, she said "future" because of always planning and stressing over the fact that she hasn't done the plans yet, because she easily gets into "wasting time", as far as I can see it is entertainment . And yeah, it does earn her the right to enjoy entertainment if she's sorted a goal.