[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[EJCC]

I knew you were all softies inside

Yeah, yeah...

 

[Lex Talionis]

Group projects were okay, as long as I did all the work on my own.

The ironic thing is that, now I'm a teacher, I can't teach like I would prefer being taught! I have to switch working forms often, I have to "entertain" rather than teach...

I find it odd that an extrovert, particularly an ESTJ, who belongs to a highly social type, would find group participation undesirable. The same applies to a lesser extent to an ENTP. As an extremely introverted INTJ, I find group projects greatly offputting, but I do not understand why this would be so for extroverts of the simplistic variety. Perhaps in a specific sense such as preferring the guaranteed success of their own individual efforts over the dispersed and uncertain actions of a group within a relatively undemanding environment such as the contemporary educational system, but I do not understand this on a general basis.

 

[sui generis]

We're individuals with some preferences that contradict what our types "should" like. Personality isn't like math or whatever; people are more complicated than that.

Like I said, I hate group projects because I always get stuck with people who are stupid and/or lazy, but I also hate it because I want to run the show and that's generally not acceptable.

 

[Tamske]

I don't find it that weird, ESTJs hating group project. If our groups came together for projects, people were all making fun and not working at all. I wanted a good grade. They knew I wanted a good grade. I came to the meetings with a lot of ideas already.
"So you've done everything already! Let's have fun!" was the reaction. Yes, in an ENTP sense, everything was "done" - the ideas were there. They "only" needed to be carried out. Which is, in my opinion, most and the most boring of the work. I wanted to get that stupid work out of the way (yeah, not very ENTP like, I know). I didn't want to have "fun" - especially not the "fun" my classmates liked, like listening to music that hurt my ears. I suspect they were half deaf already.
ESTJs? It's in their nature to want the stupid work out of the way first. They would be annoyed with groups chitchatting and calling them a spoilsport if they mention that there is work to be done.
They like group projects only if they can treat the other people as coworkers instead of friends during the project.

Now that I think about it, maybe that's the main problem with group projects at school. People who are friends (or rivals, which is much worse) suddenly need to act like coworkers. And while friends talk about the latest fashion or sport event, the work is still to be done - and the ESTJs among them twiddle their thumbs, not daring to call out on their friends, not wanting to act like the nagging workaholic *again*... and they are *still* chatting about fashion...

 

[Lex Talionis]

I don't find it that weird, ESTJs hating group project. If our groups came together for projects, people were all making fun and not working at all. I wanted a good grade. They knew I wanted a good grade. I came to the meetings with a lot of ideas already.
"So you've done everything already! Let's have fun!" was the reaction. Yes, in an ENTP sense, everything was "done" - the ideas were there. They "only" needed to be carried out. Which is, in my opinion, most and the most boring of the work. I wanted to get that stupid work out of the way (yeah, not very ENTP like, I know). I didn't want to have "fun" - especially not the "fun" my classmates liked, like listening to music that hurt my ears. I suspect they were half deaf already.
ESTJs? It's in their nature to want the stupid work out of the way first. They would be annoyed with groups chitchatting and calling them a spoilsport if they mention that there is work to be done.
They like group projects only if they can treat the other people as coworkers instead of friends during the project.

Now that I think about it, maybe that's the main problem with group projects at school. People who are friends (or rivals, which is much worse) suddenly need to act like coworkers. And while friends talk about the latest fashion or sport event, the work is still to be done - and the ESTJs among them twiddle their thumbs, not daring to call out on their friends, not wanting to act like the nagging workaholic *again*... and they are *still* chatting about fashion...

All right, then. You are basically affirming my initial hypothesis: that the preference is one of efficiency considerations. I was of the impression that you were referring to a general disinclination toward group related activities.

 

[EJCC]

ESTJs? It's in their nature to want the stupid work out of the way first. They would be annoyed with groups chitchatting and calling them a spoilsport if they mention that there is work to be done.

Very true.

They like group projects only if they can treat the other people as coworkers instead of friends during the project.

I would argue that an exception would be if you could get the work done and be friendly at the same time. It's like being in a study group, you know? Failed study groups are the ones where you're too friendly/easily distracted to get things done. But if your friends are just as motivated as you, then I'd say working with your friends in a group is much better than working alone -- not just because of efficiency, but because of morale-boosting, and because, speaking as an extrovert, sometimes I can burn myself out by working alone in silence for too long. (which is why I do most of my studying in public areas; the background noise is comforting.)

(or rivals, which is much worse)

Actually, it's much easier for me to work with rivals than friends, because I can show ALL of my cold-hearted Te and not give a crap whether they judge me for it. Also, because they aren't going to try to distract me with funny stories, because they want to keep their talk with me to a bare minimum. It may not be a pleasant situation, but it's almost always very efficient (from my experience), because my enemies are motivated too, and don't want to sabotage their own grades to get back at me for anything.

I dunno. Depends on the person, I guess.

All right, then. You are basically affirming my initial hypothesis: that the preference is one of efficiency considerations. I was of the impression that you were referring to a general disinclination toward group related activities.

Right. There's no black and white regarding that; it all depends on something or another. And it especially depends on efficiency.

 

[Tamske]

I would argue that an exception would be if you could get the work done and be friendly at the same time.

That was more or less what I meant, only you said it better . I was thinking about my husband and his colleagues at work. I've met them a few times and they are really good friends. But they are coworkers in the first place, and friends as an added bonus. He really likes the group work there, while he told me more than once about how he hated it at high school.
I guess that, for an ESTJ, it's easier to be friends with your coworkers than to co-work with your friends...

 

[EJCC]

I guess that, for an ESTJ, it's easier to be friends with your coworkers than to co-work with your friends...

Definitely. Not sure if the reasoning would be the same for all ESTJs. In my case, it's easier because I act differently at work than outside of work; In group work situations, I can be a lot more curt and bossy and cold and a lot less friendly, so I would worry that if my friends saw me in that mode, it would surprise and annoy them and maybe they wouldn't think of me the same way. (I don't like bossing my friends around; it seems rude, somehow.) But if my co-workers befriended me, that would mean that they befriended me despite that, which would mean that my active Te wasn't off-putting to them (which is always a good thing! ).

 

[Redbone]

Dear ESTJs,

Do you ever look back on an extremely bad situation and tell yourself, "Aw...it wasn't that bad...I just overreacted at the time."

Also, what do you think when someone close to you says that s/he will always be there for you (in a straightforward manner...not with gush)?

 

[EJCC]

Do you ever look back on an extremely bad situation and tell yourself, "Aw...it wasn't that bad...I just overreacted at the time."

When it's that time of the month. JK!

Seriously, though? I don't really think so. I sometimes think "If I knew then what I know now, then I wouldn't have thought it was a very big deal", but I understand that, at the time, it was a reasonable reaction. Naive, but reasonable.

What inspired that question? I ask because it's a very interesting one.

Also, what do you think when someone close to you says that you'll always be there for them (in a straightforward manner...not with gush)?

Hm... I think it sort of depends. If it's said to me when I'm in a vulnerable situation, then it's incredibly comforting and nice. We care so much about being the grounded ones in the relationship, that it's nice to be reminded that we have someone to lean on, too. But if it's said out of nowhere, then it might surprise or bewilder me more than anything else.

 

[Redbone]

What inspired that question? I ask because it's a very interesting one.

My ESTJ is finally coming out of his "dark time". He said that while things could still use improvement, they were much better. He also said that he was overreacting to the frustration of not being able to fix what he consider to be non-concrete problems/issues. I don't know if he has solved them as so much realigned his perspective to say, "Look--things could be far, far worse. Is this bad? Sure. But you've got this, that, and the other, so you need to keep that in mind when you think things are so awful." I dunno...like he's made a choice to be happy? Not sure how to put it.

I've got it: "Let me be happy and grateful for the good things that I have and not make such a big deal out of the bad things."

Sound about right to you? If that's the case, I sure do envy that! I always, always see the bad stuff first and the positive things not so much at times.

Hm... I think it sort of depends. If it's said to me when I'm in a vulnerable situation, then it's incredibly comforting and nice. We care so much about being the grounded ones in the relationship, that it's nice to be reminded that we have someone to lean on, too. But if it's said out of nowhere, then it might surprise or bewilder me more than anything else.

I said it out of nowhere. He was surprised but sounded very, very pleased. I don't say those kinds of things lightly and I didn't want to freak him out saying that cuz it's a little emotion (well...to me anyway). He's coming out of the dark and I just wanted to let him know that I was here--good and bad times. He said he'd remember and not use it carelessly. That pleased me.

 

[EJCC]

My ESTJ is finally coming out of his "dark time".

Hooray! Good for him! And good for you, too!

He said that while things could still use improvement, they were much better. He also said that he was overreacting to the frustration of not being able to fix what he consider to be non-concrete problems/issues. I don't know if he has solved them as so much realigned his perspective to say, "Look--things could be far, far worse. Is this bad? Sure. But you've got this, that, and the other, so you need to keep that in mind when you think things are so awful." I dunno...like he's made a choice to be happy? Not sure how to put it.

Oh, ok. It's his way of coping -- "Things could have been worse! It wasn't THAT big a deal, so you don't have to be upset about it." I'm 99% sure that he was saying that more to himself than to you, just to cement in his mind that things are going to be OK. I tend to do that too, i.e. taking time to sort things out in my head, coming to a conclusion, and repeating that conclusion to people when I finally emerge and they ask what happened. If I went through the whole process, and all my uncertainties, it could turn into a 2-hr-long conversation with everyone who asks me how I'm doing -- and that would make me feel worse, not better. Although usually I don't tell other people that I was overreacting, I still relate.

I've got it: "Let me be happy and grateful for the good things that I have and not make such a big deal out of the bad things."

Sound about right to you? If that's the case, I sure do envy that! I always, always see the bad stuff first and the positive things not so much at times.

I wish that were the case. I wish we 100% believed that, when we say it. (You know how ESTJs are never as certain as they seem to other people. Probably our worst communication problem!) But it's such a great and idealistic goal -- very admirable.

I said it out of nowhere. He was surprised but sounded very, very pleased. I don't say those kinds of things lightly and I didn't want to freak him out saying that cuz it's a little emotion (well...to me anyway). He's coming out of the dark and I just wanted to let him know that I was here--good and bad times. He said he'd remember and not use it carelessly. That pleased me.

That's really sweet Yeah, he definitely appreciated it!

 

[entropie]

Why did my boss think she will live to see another day after telling me that I should grow up and become more confident in my abilities, after all it are only humans I am dealing with ?

And: do estjs bump into things while walking on the streets as well ? Or not notice things like posters or ads on the streets ?

 

[EJCC]

Why did my boss think she will live to see another day after telling me that I should grow up and become more confident in my abilities, after all it are only humans I am dealing with ?

I'm not sure what you mean. I think I need context for this comment.

And: do estjs bump into things while walking on the streets as well ? Or not notice things like posters or ads on the streets ?

Do we ever! I trip on cracks in the sidewalk all the time. I'm usually totally deaf to people trying to get my attention, when I'm walking somewhere. And I can walk past a great big sign every day for weeks at a time without even seeing it. I just get so lost in thought, and so focused, when I'm going somewhere...

 

[EJCC]

Dear ESTJs,

Do you ever look back on an extremely bad situation and tell yourself, "Aw...it wasn't that bad...I just overreacted at the time."

I'm going to partially redo my answer to this question, in light of something that happened to me today.

On an errand for my boss, I walked five miles trying to find a FedEx that was less than a mile away. I got so confused by streets dead-ending (and the fact that there were NW and SW versions of the same street probably a mile apart from each other), that a trip that should have taken half an hour took over two hours. It was very, very hot and humid and sunny outside; I got dehydrated, sunburned (I'll probably peel in a few days), my self-worth got hurt (I found myself thinking that I should tell my boss to write, in any future recommendation letters, that I have a shitty sense of direction and therefore am not worth hiring), and I cried some angry and frustrated tears about halfway through the trip. (On the bright side, I discovered that probably the most comfortable way to outright sob in front of people is to do so on a crowded street where everyone, including you, is walking somewhere. It was nice; I was able to let it out without feeling enneagram-related guilt about it.)

When I came back, calmed down a little, and took a shower, I thought "Was that really worth sobbing about? You sob when someone tells you you're worthless. You sob when you have a huge fight with your significant other. You sob when someone in your family dies. Why the hell would you sob when you can't find a FedEx??"

So my new answer is yes -- I do, indeed, retroactively invalidate events that made me very upset. I know this because I just invalidated one today!


Edit: I think the enneagram has a whole lot to do with this particular situation, though. When I relayed that same story to a good friend of mine, he mentioned that even he (an ENFJ type 3, which says a lot about his ability to figure people out) can never sense when emotions are building, with me. It's either acting normally or having, in his words, a "profound moment of catharsis", like that one. Seems pretty 1-ish. So it makes me wonder if other ESTJs are just as all-or-nothing.

 

[Hera]

Do you have trouble leaving bad relationships? How do you show someone you like them?

 

[Fidelia]

ESTJs offer food to the people they like...

 

[mrcockburn]

Do we ever! I trip on cracks in the sidewalk all the time. I'm usually totally deaf to people trying to get my attention, when I'm walking somewhere. And I can walk past a great big sign every day for weeks at a time without even seeing it. I just get so lost in thought, and so focused, when I'm going somewhere...

You sure you're ESTJ?? Because those are the only reasons I ruled it out as my type.

 

[EJCC]

Do you have trouble leaving bad relationships?

Yeah, I definitely can. It's ironic -- I have such a get-it-done, get-it-out-of-the-way attitude most of the time, but when it comes to relationships (friendships or otherwise), I'll see the writing on the wall and won't have the heart to end it officially. At least, not until I've hidden from the other person in the relationship, for a while, trying to come up with the most hassle-free and least depressing way to end it.

I'm in the midst of doing that right now, actually -- with an unhealthy ESFP who had been my friend since middle school despite having never given anything to our friendship. I went on a trip with her, and you know how trips can be kind of a litmus test, in relationships? Well, she failed it. We had nothing to talk about, mostly because she never - I repeat, NEVER (not exaggerating) - asked me about myself. If there was an awkward silence, I might try to fill it by asking her about her, but she would fill those silences with awkward, empty chatter about her life. It was a bad time, and it drained the hell out of me.

Since then, I have been ignoring her. No interactions on Facebook -- and if she were to call me, I probably wouldn't return her call. A lot of my motivation for this probably comes from the fact that I don't want to hurt her feelings, or have a fight with her. Whether I win or lose a fight with a friend, I always feel like a bad person, and I hate that. Also, I know for a fact that my Fe would fail me and I would say something incredibly mean that would make her hold a grudge against me for the rest of her life. I'd rather send her an indirect message that says "I'm not interested". That way we might be able to stay on good terms, even if we don't remain close friends. One of my least favorite things in the world is the feeling of being hated, and I avoid that at all costs.

How do you show someone you like them?

ESTJs offer food to the people they like...

Indeed! We're likely to show people that we care about them by generally being thoughtful and considerate with them. This could be giving them food or it could be remembering to wish them luck on the day of a big test, inviting them over for a movie night after they've had a bad day and need perking up, making them tea when they're sick... That's when you really know that an ESTJ cares.

You sure you're ESTJ?? Because those are the only reasons I ruled it out as my type.

Well, I was exaggerating a little bit, regarding everything except people trying to get my attention. It makes sense, as an ESTJ, though, because I'm usually thinking about what I have planned for my day, and sorting out concrete details/plans in my head. Also, I zone out like that MUCH more often during the school year than right now, because at school, most of my walking is for short spans of time, alone, and towards something that I have to get done. Task-oriented walking, you know? Which doesn't make me relaxed enough to actually enjoy the walk, as I can on weekends or during the summer.
Exception: When I'm excitedly talking to someone about something, I also can become oblivious to my surroundings -- probably from my Ne shoving my Te/Si out of the way

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

ESTJ and I were having a discussion. I was having an issue with him fussing over me. I've been single for six years and have had no trouble taking care of myself so when I wanted to walk out to my car at midnight and fix it (real quick fix. I had just found the answer to what I needed to do online and was excited to see if it would work) he sort of said, "no. you're not going outside at this hour". "Uh...excuse me, DAD?....yes, I am. You can go with me if you're that worried." Anyway, I went without him and the fix worked but his "order" bothered me and when I came back I wanted to leave for a bit and drive around. This is something I do when I need some space and someone is annoying me and I can't get away.

ESTJ was confused and knew something was bothering me and asked me what was wrong. I told him that for 32 years I've been taking care of myself just fine without him in my life and now that he is I felt he's trying to take away some of my independence and I didn't like it. We sat down and talked and he basically said that he cares a lot about me and he's not trying to take anything away from me but that if something happened to me on his watch he'd never forgive himself and he worries about me. He almost got a little emotional and then he said that "he was on the edge of more than just liking me". I just told him that every once in a while I'm going to need some space and he needs to give it too me without pouting.

Anyway, I was surprised to hear his admittance of almost love?