[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[Peel]

Interesting. I wonder if that is, actually, type-related.

No problem! It's a little bit of both, and they're mutually reinforcing. We have stricter definitions of what makes a "close friend" - i.e. what makes someone worth opening up to - because we don't want to take the risk of growing close to someone who will hurt us later.

A quote from earlier that's relevant:

Thanks again so much for the input! I do feel like I might be seeing her a little bit too much as an ESTJ rather than an individual at this moment so I'll keep what you said in mind. Really liked what you said about opening up - hopefully I can be that friend to her, all my other friends, and well, everyone and anyone who needs it

 

[sui generis]

And what would make you decide to cross that line? Is what you see in that person, the feedback you receive from them, or that they seem to know where you are coming from?

For me, it's kind of a combination of all of the above, leading to this general sense/knowledge that I can trust them not to judge me. With some people it comes right away, with some people it takes a long time. I'm not denying that it's partially about what *I* need this person to be to me, either, but most of it's what I see in the other person.

Your ESTJ sounds like he's in a rough spot. Desperate-like.

 

[Anna intuitive]

Further report back: I just spent another week at a workshop with my ESTJ colleague. This time we were at the same level as participants in the workshop, except that I had to spend some of the free time in supervision with her for my other work.

Working really hard at anything I have to report on to her is paying off. She clearly respects that and we are then both at ease.

I was ill for three days with an inner ear infection and I noticed that she was the most helpful of anybody, in the way that I like. Which is to say that she was practically helpful in many small ways and at the same time respected my way of dealing with my illness, once I had explained the rationale for that. She didn't try to tell me what to do or act anxious.

I notice now that when I am with her and she does or says something I would have reacted to before, I just think "Oh yeah, I read about that (kind of behaviour pattern) on the "Ask an ESTJ!" thread. Then I stay calm.

At the end of the week she said "It was good to be together". Knowing that ESTJs say what they mean, I take that as real.

I feel our relationship has turned a corner, though there will still be more work to do at it on my side...for reasons which will be clear when I next post on the thread - am leaving for another workshop now.

 

[EJCC]

I agree - no type has got a corner on considerate and thoughtful. In fact, I've found that ESTJs tend to be extremely considerate in many areas which don't come naturally to me. In my experience, they notice what the other person's practical needs are and work quickly to deal with them. They are a lot more adaptable than me in terms of trying to speak in another person's love language. I've found that they are pretty universally tremendous at noticing details about how others communicate and putting the person at ease through using those observations to inform their behaviour. I am easily embarrassed, especially when I am in unfamiliar territory, and I've found that ESTJs matter-of-fact manner, knowledgeability and interest in being of use has made them one of the more likely types I'd go to for an explanation or help with something.

The bolded is something I hadn’t thought about before, but that is totally true now that you’ve mentioned it! Usually my issue is figuring out what’s needed (on a deeper level), but once I figure that out I have no problem doing what needs to be done. I have a very “What can I do?” approach to comforting people and dealing with their emotions etc.

As far as introspective - yes I agree with you on that! ESTJs are extremely introspective. I think that where INFJs may make the distinction is what they are introspective about and also how much they verbalize it.

Very true. A good example: my answer to your question, coming up -

If I were to ask a lot of ESTJs how they felt about a certain event that had happened in their life and what they would have done same or differently though, I'm not sure what kind of response I'd be likely to get. You've said that this thread's questions have made you think about some things that you may not have been as likely to otherwise. Do you think this is the kind of stuff that that person may have been referring to? (I don't know, just am wondering what you think...)

If other ESTJs are like me, then if something really big happens in their lives, they want to know what it means for them. If it just sits there, looming, like the elephant in the room, completely unresolved, it’ll drive them crazy! So you can guarantee that when you ask them about a particular event and how they feel about it, they have introspected that thing to DEATH. They have turned it around and around in their heads until they have sorted it out internally. And if they haven’t yet… you can bet that their answer to your question will be long and rambling, because they haven’t come up with a way to approach it yet, and they’re desperately trying to find a way to phrase it that won’t make things too awkward or too personal.

And what would make you decide to cross that line? Is what you see in that person, the feedback you receive from them, or that they seem to know where you are coming from?

It’s pretty spontaneous, actually. I’ll act a particular way towards them, but you’ll see a difference in me if a particular type of situation arises. I’m guessing that you’d never know if I was close to you if a situation never came up where I would need to show my loyalty/affection/etc. But if a time comes when, say, a friend is really stressed out or upset, and that friend isn’t a previously-established “close” or “kind of close” friend, then I’ll have to make a decision: How do I react? That decision will probably be based around how much loyalty/protectiveness I feel towards them at that particular moment. So really, it’s only when the appropriate situation arises that I realize whether I want to be a true friend or not.

Oh, I just realized that I was only answering based on ESTJs being good friends to people, and not ESTJs being the ones to open up… The answer to that is also: it’s spontaneous and situational. If I’m feeling emotional about something, I’ll have a gut feeling, as to whether I’m comfortable or not opening up in front of a particular person. It isn’t really rational; the deepest it gets is “I can’t open up to them! I barely know them!” without even having a good definition of “know”. And if I’m deciding to open up to someone for the first time, it isn’t reasonable like this: “I’ve been their friend for a certain number of months. They’ve proven themselves to me. Therefore, I will open up to them.” Although I’m guessing that a little of that happens subconsciously. But in the moment, it’s more like this: “Should I say it should I say it should I say it - ah fuck it I’m gonna say it - here we go - oh shit I hope this works!”

One of my ESTJs blew up my phone this morning unloading on me. I was kind of shocked. We both talk to each other about our problems but we both tend to be matter-of-fact about it. Not this time. When we got on the subject of our current issues, he admitted that he gets scared, confused, and freaks out. He said no one may see it (well, he said it was important that no one sees this) but on the inside, he is coming apart. He spoke of his fatigue, his frustration, and even being lonely despite being surrounded by friends and family. I was really surprised that he was so emotional about it. Oddly enough, when we have talked before, he always ends the conversation on a "hell, I said too much" vibe. This time, he was more like, "I'm glad I talked to you. Thank you." I've known him for a very long time and he's never been like that. It makes me wonder what happened. I feel like an invisible line has been crossed.

I look back over conversations over the last few times that we have talked and noticed a different tone to them. So, he's been heading in this direction for a little bit. I just didn't notice it.

As always, thanks in advance.

Aww, that’s so wonderful He must have really, really needed that. I relate a lot to the “hell, I’ve said too much” vibe, because that’s almost always how I feel after opening up to someone. But what happened with your ESTJ was that he opened up with a purpose – i.e. self-comfort – and he got exactly what he was hoping for! Congrats to him and to you – that is an incredible milestone. (I say “incredible” because there are VERY few people in my life who I can have conversations like that with. Although to be fair, NTPs are really good at getting to the heart of things; if I talk to my dad and I’m really upset or crying, he won’t be fazed at all by my outward display but will go directly to the problem solving, and that’s absolutely wonderful and makes me feel calm and in control

Thanks again so much for the input! I do feel like I might be seeing her a little bit too much as an ESTJ rather than an individual at this moment so I'll keep what you said in mind. Really liked what you said about opening up - hopefully I can be that friend to her, all my other friends, and well, everyone and anyone who needs it

That’s lovely! I hope so too. Good luck, young padawan!

 

[EJCC]

Further report back: I just spent another week at a workshop with my ESTJ colleague. This time we were at the same level as participants in the workshop, except that I had to spend some of the free time in supervision with her for my other work.

Working really hard at anything I have to report on to her is paying off. She clearly respects that and we are then both at ease.

I was ill for three days with an inner ear infection and I noticed that she was the most helpful of anybody, in the way that I like. Which is to say that she was practically helpful in many small ways and at the same time respected my way of dealing with my illness, once I had explained the rationale for that. She didn't try to tell me what to do or act anxious.

I notice now that when I am with her and she does or says something I would have reacted to before, I just think "Oh yeah, I read about that (kind of behaviour pattern) on the "Ask an ESTJ!" thread. Then I stay calm.

At the end of the week she said "It was good to be together". Knowing that ESTJs say what they mean, I take that as real.

I feel our relationship has turned a corner, though there will still be more work to do at it on my side...for reasons which will be clear when I next post on the thread - am leaving for another workshop now.

HOORAY!!!!!

Your posts are so wonderful! They are probably my favorite posts of the entire thread, to date! It's bringing everything I've spent the past two years doing into one practical application, with regular updates and positive results and OH MY GOD.

I'm serious. I am SO glad this is working for you. Congratulations. And I am so glad that I've been helpful.

Sigh

 

[mcmartinez84]

This thread is seriously making me miss my ESTJ friend

 

[SilkRoad]

What about ESTJs and the counter-culture?

The one I know (and I'm pretty sure he is one) was an anarchist/punk rocker while growing up, took a lot of drugs, lived as a squatter and indulged in a fair amount of wild young man behaviour (motorbikes and silly antics). Around age 30 he became and has remained a strict Christian, so he's been a pretty serious and sober type for the years ever since, except for allowing himself to cut loose occasionally on holiday or socially (and I think it really is in terms of "allowing himself.") He has a lot of responsibilities and takes them extremely seriously.

(Mind you, he still has a motorbike and a mutual friend told me he drives like a bat out of hell. I've been in a car with him so I could kind of believe it. She'd been on motorbikes many times before but still told me he was so aggressive/reckless while driving that she was terrified... At the point when I was interested in him I was hoping I'd get him to take me out on it but that never did happen - he doesn't use it much anyway. But from her description , that's probably a relief, especially as I've never been on one...)

I'm just curious because I'm pretty sure he is ESTJ but this is the background he came from. I wouldn't have anticipated that ESTJs would be that much inclined to go against the norms of society even when younger. However, maybe it's more in terms of being a team player/leader in a group? Anarchists and squatters have their own communities and norms too.

I think I've also seen it said somewhere on this forum that young ESTJs or ESFJs might come across as more experimental and ESTP/ESFP-like when growing up and experimenting, also depending on what kind of social surroundings and group they have.

I'd be interested to hear what you think about this...

 

[entropie]

Why do ESTJs love me ? Especially much older woman who especially should now that I am a jerk ?

 

[INTPness]

Why do ESTJs love me ? Especially much older woman who especially should now that I am a jerk ?

Oooh, oooh, I know the answer to that question. It's cuz their tertiary Ne develops later in life and so it's refreshing for them - like a breath of fresh air when someone has lots of Ne. I see this with an ESTJ family member of mine. The older he's gotten, the funnier he thinks I am and the more he relates to my humor. It's like my Ne gives him "permission" to come outside and act like a big clown. He's actually gotten pretty good with his Ne as the years have gone on.

 

[EJCC]

This thread is seriously making me miss my ESTJ friend

What about ESTJs and the counter-culture?

The thing about the idea of "tradition" or "counter-culture" is that it's so incredibly subjective. ESTJs aren't traditional for the sake of tradition; the only way that they follow that stereotype is that they don't like to go against things that they are used to, with the very important qualification being that they believe that those traditions are right/just/fair/etc - and that they like them. ESTJs can be as rebellious as anyone, as long as they believe that the "norm" isn't worth joining. As counter-stereotypical as this may seem, ESTJs can be fiercely independent people, and if something "normal" ends up riling up their Fi, then they WILL rebel against it.

So, I can imagine a hypothetical situation behind why your ESTJ became an anarchist biker: He sees people who are bikers/anarchists. He is curious and learns more about it. He compares that lifestyle to his current one and deems it "better" in a number of ways that he could probably list for you - and if anyone argues with him, he leaves each argument feeling progressively more secure in his future decision to live that way. Finally, if his friends/family oppose the decision, he tells them that he'll do it anyway, and lists for them all the reasons that he chose. (That is, if he respects his family. Otherwise, it'll be "Fuck you and your arbitrary rules! I'm leaving.") Not that this is what happened with him, but it would make sense to me.

Why do ESTJs love me ? Especially much older woman who especially should now that I am a jerk ?

Oooh, oooh, I know the answer to that question. It's cuz their tertiary Ne develops later in life and so it's refreshing for them - like a breath of fresh air when someone has lots of Ne. I see this with an ESTJ family member of mine. The older he's gotten, the funnier he thinks I am and the more he relates to my humor. It's like my Ne gives him "permission" to come outside and act like a big clown. He's actually gotten pretty good with his Ne as the years have gone on.

Totally. Although they obviously don't have to be old - you can tell that my Ne is pretty good already

 

[Tamske]

Totally. Although they obviously don't have to be old - you can tell that my Ne is pretty good already

I can tell indeed

And at first, for my and hubby, it was the other way around. I had been suppressing Ne in order to be attractive (I had some experience from a not-so-good relationship; luckily this experience turned out false). I can honestly say I fell in love for my ESTJ when I witnessed his Ne use.

 

[EJCC]

I can tell indeed

And at first, for my and hubby, it was the other way around. I had been suppressing Ne in order to be attractive (I had some experience from a not-so-good relationship; luckily this experience turned out false). I can honestly say I fell in love for my ESTJ when I witnessed his Ne use.

Exactly! Ne is one of the most lovable functions, in my opinion. I see it in people and I can't help but them and want to be their friend - just like what INTPness was saying.

 

[EJCC]

Okay, question for non-ESTJs (or ESTJs who have lots of experience with INxPs):

I have a habit of getting sucked into arguments with INxPs, and I always regret it afterwards. What ALWAYS happens (and I say "always" without exaggerating; this has happened with all three confirmed INxPs that I have debated) is that the debate goes around and around in circles and never GOES anywhere and I get all frustrated and thinking "Why do I have no idea what we're debating now? Where are they even going with this? I thought we were done!!!"... only to find out that they were debating "for intellectual stimulation" or "to focus their thoughts" or something.

How can I notice this coming and nip it in the bud, before getting sucked in??? This has to stop!*

*I mean, I know that it's my problem and not theirs, so when I say "this has to stop", I mean "I need to stop debating them like that".

 

[Redbone]

Your ESTJ sounds like he's in a rough spot. Desperate-like.

He is, I think. And he's so goddamn tough that I think he is really bewildered as to why things are "not working". This is an a end of the road experience for him. He is doing a lot of what Fidelia mentioned about making adjustments and adaptations to speaking another love's language but it's a no go. I think he cannot fathom the possibility that someone may just want too damn much...you know, more than what any person ought to give? He tries harder instead of smarter and it's put him in a bad rut. In a nutshell wondering, "I am applying the solution and doing all the right things, why is this not working?!" The order and stability he seeks keeps eluding him and he doesn't understand why. Some days he has it and other days, it is completely absent. It's driving him really nuts.

Aww, that’s so wonderful He must have really, really needed that. I relate a lot to the “hell, I’ve said too much” vibe, because that’s almost always how I feel after opening up to someone. But what happened with your ESTJ was that he opened up with a purpose – i.e. self-comfort – and he got exactly what he was hoping for! Congrats to him and to you – that is an incredible milestone. (I say “incredible” because there are VERY few people in my life who I can have conversations like that with. Although to be fair, NTPs are really good at getting to the heart of things; if I talk to my dad and I’m really upset or crying, he won’t be fazed at all by my outward display but will go directly to the problem solving, and that’s absolutely wonderful and makes me feel calm and in control

I think he did. I never heard him talk like that. Upset and almost frenetic. Well...for him. The conversation didn't start that way but once he really started talking about what was bothering him, it was like he just couldn't stop. I felt bad for him because all I could hear is "I'm doing this right, why isn't it having the results I expect?" He didn't say it but I could almost hear him say, "Will you tell me what I'm doing wrong here?" I think it must be really painful for an ESTJ to be doing everything like they should and everything is still all fucked up. He really didn't need much feedback from me except to listen and reassure him that no matter how things turned out to take comfort in the fact that he was doing the right things and to just continue. The real solution lies outside of himself and I don't think he is ready to hear that.

 

[Redbone]

Okay, question for non-ESTJs (or ESTJs who have lots of experience with INxPs):

I have a habit of getting sucked into arguments with INxPs, and I always regret it afterwards. What ALWAYS happens (and I say "always" without exaggerating; this has happened with all three confirmed INxPs that I have debated) is that the debate goes around and around in circles and never GOES anywhere and I get all frustrated and thinking "Why do I have no idea what we're debating now? Where are they even going with this? I thought we were done!!!"... only to find out that they were debating "for intellectual stimulation" or "to focus their thoughts" or something.

How can I notice this coming and nip it in the bud, before getting sucked in??? This has to stop!*

*I mean, I know that it's my problem and not theirs, so when I say "this has to stop", I mean "I need to stop debating them like that".

When any debate opens, this is where it will lead. I can completely identify with debating for the intellectual stimulation or to sharpen or focus my thoughts. That is the purpose of the debate--nothing more, nothing less. I don't want it to necessarily go anywhere. I love it but I have come to realize that other people don't enjoy this at all. It's either seen as confrontational or as you said, going nowhere.

My ESTJ made me friend someone on FB who enjoyed this...he got sick of me trying to engage me in debates.

Hmm...I didn't know that an INFP would do this...thought this was more of a XNTP trait.

 

[rav3n]

Why does my ESTJ friend keep nagging me to socialise more? What if I kept nagging her to stop nagging her own child?

 

[mrcockburn]

Can you lend me some Si...

 

[mcmartinez84]

Okay, question for non-ESTJs (or ESTJs who have lots of experience with INxPs):

I have a habit of getting sucked into arguments with INxPs, and I always regret it afterwards. What ALWAYS happens (and I say "always" without exaggerating; this has happened with all three confirmed INxPs that I have debated) is that the debate goes around and around in circles and never GOES anywhere and I get all frustrated and thinking "Why do I have no idea what we're debating now? Where are they even going with this? I thought we were done!!!"... only to find out that they were debating "for intellectual stimulation" or "to focus their thoughts" or something.

How can I notice this coming and nip it in the bud, before getting sucked in??? This has to stop!*

*I mean, I know that it's my problem and not theirs, so when I say "this has to stop", I mean "I need to stop debating them like that".

All I can say is that I know how you must feel about this and I've seen it happen with myself and my (male) ESTJ friend. That's to say...it happens with us and other people, not with each other.

We have a mutual (female) ISTJ friend and I'm their translator. I know what he means when he says something. I know what she means when she says something. And neither one of them can understand each other without it resulting in bickering. When I explain things to the ISTJ, she thinks I'm taking the ESTJ's side. When I explain to the ESTJ, he just gets a funny look and goes on about how complicated the ISTJ is. I've gotta give him credit where it's due tho. She's a little complicated and it's taken me awhile to figure her out. And I usually think he's right anyway

The only time I kinda debate for the sake of it is to learn more about something. And even then, I don't think I'm debating. I ask questions to understand wtf is going on. Some people might think it's debate-ish. *shrug*

Oh, and I know none of that it related to NPs. D:

 

[EJCC]

I think he did. I never heard him talk like that. Upset and almost frenetic. Well...for him. The conversation didn't start that way but once he really started talking about what was bothering him, it was like he just couldn't stop. I felt bad for him because all I could hear is "I'm doing this right, why isn't it having the results I expect?" He didn't say it but I could almost hear him say, "Will you tell me what I'm doing wrong here?" I think it must be really painful for an ESTJ to be doing everything like they should and everything is still all fucked up. He really didn't need much feedback from me except to listen and reassure him that no matter how things turned out to take comfort in the fact that he was doing the right things and to just continue. The real solution lies outside of himself and I don't think he is ready to hear that.

Poor guy. I really, really relate to that. I read this entire quote and wanted to bold practically the entire thing, just to emphasize how much I relate. Seeing things that are wrong and being unable to fix them is definitely one of the most upsetting things for ESTJs (except for universally upsetting, tragic things, of course). I've vented at people in a very similar way to that - with practically your exact quote: "Will you tell me what I'm doing wrong here?" And you did exactly the right thing, in telling him that he's doing everything he can Takes a huge burden off his shoulders. Reminding him that "it's not your fault".

Why does my ESTJ friend keep nagging me to socialise more? What if I kept nagging her to stop nagging her own child?

Well... to a degree, ESTJs nag by nature because they care. If they don't give a shit, they won't nag you. But if they worry about things not going smoothly for you - if they're concerned about your well-being - etc etc etc - then they consider it their duty as a friend/family member to step in. Worst case scenario: something terrible happens, and if only you had stepped in, the terrible thing could have been avoided.

But that's more Te dominance, than ESTJ-ness. ENTJs nag too, right?

Can you lend me some Si...

Here. Use it well, young padawan.

The only time I kinda debate for the sake of it is to learn more about something. And even then, I don't think I'm debating. I ask questions to understand wtf is going on. Some people might think it's debate-ish. *shrug*

That's actually what I do, too. Exactly what I do. I totally agree. I usually don't like "debating", unless I know for sure that it will come to a satisfying conclusion - because I hate those debates that end with some vague understanding of all the irrational emotions that form the basis of everyone's opinions of everything. I like the debates that end with a lovely enlightening moment, and make you feel like you appreciate the other person more Or that you've convinced them that you're right

Oh, and I know none of that it related to NPs. D:

It's still sympathetic, and that's what matters It's actually nice to know that it isn't always type-related, in a way. Though I'm still confused about how I manage to get into debates and then get lost in them... I thought conversations were things that are easy to follow when you're in them?

When any debate opens, this is where it will lead. I can completely identify with debating for the intellectual stimulation or to sharpen or focus my thoughts. That is the purpose of the debate--nothing more, nothing less. I don't want it to necessarily go anywhere. I love it but I have come to realize that other people don't enjoy this at all. It's either seen as confrontational or as you said, going nowhere.

Or feeling like you're being used as a sounding board, without your permission. I dunno - I like conversations that focus my thoughts, as much as anyone. But for whatever reason, they make more sense to me when I'm talking to Js. I've had very intellectually stimulating and thought-sharpening conversations with NFJs, but that's mostly because it ends up being a pretty linear conversation. Or else, it's like a flowchart, and there can be multiple conversations going on at once, but they're still pretty linear and therefore they still make sense, even if there are so many. If that makes sense.

Also, to be fair, I have had really, really excellent conversations with my INTP dad. Not DEBATES, but conversations, where we throw out ideas and neither of us presumes to have a position, or not. If I'm in a debate, I have a position. I may abandon it if I'm convinced of something else, but I always have a position. I don't consider it to be a debate if I'm position-less. Also, like mcmartinez said earlier, I would probably be asking questions, instead of making blanket statements (as my INFP friend was doing earlier), to make it clear that I'm not taking a side yet.

Hmm...I didn't know that an INFP would do this...thought this was more of a XNTP trait.

It was SO WEIRD! I'll give you a sample, when we were talking about an author:

Me: He had interesting points, but he really annoyed me. He would make these huge blanket statements about huge groups of people. It was frustrating.
Her: Yes, but consider his background; his family was killed by members of that group of people.
Me: But that generalization! It's so frustrating! I HATE those blanket statements!
Her: But think of his background!

God DAMMIT. It kept going around and around in circles like that! Complete type-related miscommunication. She was acting as if I should consider it OKAY for people to be irrationally biased. As if the argument could be won by the sheer power of her Fi alone. I can't debate with someone who talks like that; we operate on completely different concepts of what's rational or irrational! I doubt that this is the fault of her type - I mean, we all know that rationality isn't type-related. But... it was SO ANNOYING

(There was a lot more to it than that, but that's just an example)

 

[mcmartinez84]

That's actually what I do, too. Exactly what I do. I totally agree. I usually don't like "debating", unless I know for sure that it will come to a satisfying conclusion - because I hate those debates that end with some vague understanding of all the irrational emotions that form the basis of everyone's opinions of everything. I like the debates that end with a lovely enlightening moment, and make you feel like you appreciate the other person more Or that you've convinced them that you're right

Omg! I like that our arrogance is in the same place. I mean, it's not really arrogance when we're right.

It's still sympathetic, and that's what matters It's actually nice to know that it isn't always type-related, in a way. Though I'm still confused about how I manage to get into debates and then get lost in them... I thought conversations were things that are easy to follow when you're in them?

lol, me too! It would happen with an INTJ every so often and he pissed me off one time. I brought up Nazis or Hitler and he immediately "discredited" me by citing Godwin's law... Once he did that and made fun of me (for making a valid point) I just gave up. I get that it's a funny internet thing, but I *did* take a whole 3 credit hour WW2 history class. I learned about them D:

An ENTP friend would also make debates out of nothing. He loved doing that. I think he liked it even more after a couple of us told him that we hated those debates. :rolli: